Author Topic: Civilian Combat Statistics...  (Read 6641 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline tomw

  • Not as bad as you might think
  • Senior Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 739
  • Karma: +35/-0
  • hoplophobic people will fear my lifestyle
    • Zubbly's photos!
Civilian Combat Statistics...
« on: January 27, 2012, 12:33:01 pm »
Interesting stuff.

Civilian Combat statistics found in my K-TOG list mail today :
 

Interesting article on this by Ed Lovette in the February issue of Combat Handguns.
(The data is from Mr. Lovette's own research and I would love to see the from where it came.)

!) Location--vast majority happen in the victims home or place of business.

2) Lighting Conditions--Victim usually has the chance to get the lights on.

3) Distance--0-10 feet. Most between 6-10 feet.

4) Duration---actual shooting was over in seconds or a fraction of seconds.

5) Physical contact rarely involved but when it did was exceptionally violent.

6) Number of shots fired was often one but an average of three.

7) Movement--movement was usually to retrieve the pistol and then to confirm the problem.
There was no "pieing" or searching, no moving while shooting or lateral movement to avoid gunfire.

8] Use of security equipment ( OC spray, knife, flashlight etc)..NONE!!!

9) Use of Cover--Almost non existant.

10) Firing positions---Shots fired by the Armed Citizen (AC) were most frequently from the standing position, several were on their back in bed, only one fired using the bed as cover.

11) Type of Weapon Used.. AC overwelmingly used a .38 revolver.

12) Response of Bad Guy When Shot---He most often stopped fighting and ran off, closely followed by stopping fighting and falling down. When the AC fired a contact shot into the bad guys torso/neck the fight was usually over very quickly.

13) Verbal Exchange Between AC and Bad Guy---Almost always.

14) Training by AC---Overwhelmingly none, followed by a small number who had taken a CCW course and a very small amount who had fired a handgun while in the military.


My take on this:

Some of these statistics are the reverse of what they teach in combat courses. Moving while firing, range for practice shooting and a couple others.

I practice at 30 to 50 feet so figure anything in between is only going to be off an inch or 2 max and be inconsequential. I will be doing more point and shoot training at 10 feet now, however.

Some would say sleeping with and carrying a gun makes me paranoid. I say what do I have to be paranoid about, I am well armed?

Within 10 feet anyone should be capable of an offhand "point and shoot" torso shot, not the 30 feet they preach when most would need somewhat careful aiming to hit well.

Not much for caliber data included other than most were a .38 wheel gun but to me that just means "any gun in hand is better than the perfect gun in another place".

The part about training of most of the citizens doing the defensive shooting being non existent is interesting, too.


We gave up trying to turn Buddy into an attack / guard dog:



That failed so we decided to leverage our 2nd amendment rights. Hopefully never have to use these tools but it is always better to have them and not need them than to need them and not have them!

A Sheriff's Deputy can get to an intruder here in about 20 minutes @ 60 MPH any of my pistols can get there in a couple milliseconds @ 1000 Feet per Second or faster.

Just my rant for the morning.

To you non Americans please realise it is an American thing and not intended to offend Guns are just tools.

Tom
Do NOT mistake me for any kind of "expert".

( ?° ?? ?°)


24 Trina 310 watt modules, SMA SunnyBoy 7.7 KW Grid Tie inverter.

I thought that they were angels, but much to my surprise, We climbed aboard their starship and headed for the skies

Offline bj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 725
  • Karma: +23/-0
  • Lamont, Alberta, Canada
Re: Civilian Combat Statistics...
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2012, 01:19:36 pm »
  This non-American is not offended in any way.   ;)
"Even a blind squirrel will find an acorn once in a while"
bj

Offline WooferHound

  • Technowhiz
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 876
  • Karma: +40/-3
  • Huntsville Alabama USA
    • My personal webpage
Re: Civilian Combat Statistics...
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2012, 01:28:33 pm »
I'm afraid to have a gun around. My wife gets real drunk sometimes and then it's easy to piss her of badly. Not sure I could trust her in those situations.
----- W o o f e r h o u n d -----
My Renewable Energy Projects

Offline ghurd

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 442
  • Karma: +22/-0
    • GHurd Solar
Re: Civilian Combat Statistics...
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2012, 06:20:42 pm »
One of the famous combat instructor / writer guys had some ideas about some of those points.

2) The AC does not really need the lights on, and knows the layout.
I can get out of bed, out of the room, through the hall, down the stairs, to the bathroom (washroom in metric), and 'hit the mark', all in the dark.
The Bad Guy (BG) is lucky to get around without making noise in my house, let alone know where the bedroom is.

7) The BG is expecting a cakewalk.  "Loud noises" are most probably unexpected.

11) DA wheelgun is stupid simple, .38 is common in small wheelguns, and there are tons of them floating around from nearly a century of being common, so no surprise to me.
At my house, a 2" DA .38 sleeps next to a condition 2 1911.  The .38 is faster to use, IMHO.  1911 is for after I'm out of bed.

14)  Probably no 'formal' training.  Anyone ready for the situation in that regard probably had "Dad Training" since they were 7 YO.
Not sure when my "Dad Training" started, but I popped my first whistlepig (only the head visable, BTW) from about 80 yards with a 5mm Rem Mag when I was 5, my own rifle at 7, and my own wheelgun at 12.

A)  ACs have a better ratio of wins:losses than the PDs.
The writer guy mostly said it was due to the numbered things above, and I agree.
There was no A) above.  Just seeing if you are paying attention.

Thinking of upgrading the 2" .38 to similar in .44 Special.
Not exactly a common item in SS at what I wanna spend on a whim, but been looking for 5 years anyway. LOL
G-

Offline Freejuice

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: +3/-0
Re: Civilian Combat Statistics...
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2012, 04:16:17 am »
Years ago,; until his retirement my Dad was an investigator with the local sheriff's office, and he was always undergoing some kind of training with the ATF or FBI, this or that ...he came home one day telling me about an interesting  FBI statistic in which most gun battles ( 80%) were within 10 feet....phone booth work, up close and personal

Offline luv2weld

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • No Personal Text Set by User
Re: Civilian Combat Statistics...
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2012, 11:06:03 am »
Somewhere in the past I remember reading that most gunfights were at 21 feet or less. Might have been something published
by the NRA. I practice up to 50 yards. If you can hit it at 50 yards (meters) anything under that is guaranteed (unless you
are shaking so bad from the shot of adrenalin you're going to get in that stress situation!!!).
Without getting out of bed, I can reach a 9mm semi, a 357 Herrett Contender, an M-14 and a mini-14.
Does that make me paranoid???
Or just a noid???? You can bet that if I ever have to use them in the middle of the night, I will be annoyed!!!

Ralph

The best way to "kill time" is to work it to death!

I wouldn't need to manage my anger if people would learn to manage their stupidity!!

Offline wilfor03

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61
  • Karma: +2/-0
  • USA - Union Grove, Al
Re: Civilian Combat Statistics...
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2012, 01:37:57 pm »
Being retarted Army, I too have NO patience for anyone who enters my home, UN-invited, day or night!!  >:(

But, being the friendly fella I am, I will show them my private arseal of "get the hell outa here(s) !"  :P

Offline ghurd

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 442
  • Karma: +22/-0
    • GHurd Solar
Re: Civilian Combat Statistics...
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2012, 05:24:28 pm »
Somewhere in the past I remember reading that most gunfights were at 21 feet or less. Might have been something published by the NRA.
Ralph

Hey Ralph,
T/C Contender is about the last thing I would have expected anyone to mention in this thread!

21' is what the PDs around here use(d) to 'qualify', at big giant man sized targets.
And not that many get a great score, which is something to think about.

I heard of a bow club shooting longer distances vs the local PD guys up close, at targets, and the archers won by a landslide.
Then add in the 10~20~30 minutes of response time, and a 9mm sounds barely adaquite.
With a dozen seconds to work with, and a few more than a dozen feet, not a whole lot an M-14 won't deal with.

.308 is Not something I like to shoot in the house... very often.
 :o
G-

Offline luv2weld

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • No Personal Text Set by User
Re: Civilian Combat Statistics...
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2012, 09:54:02 am »
I really like my Contenders. Got a .221 beside my computer, too.
For those not familiar with it, the .357 Herrett is a .357 bullet stuffed into a 30-30 casing!!!
If an intruder can get past that, shame on me. 
I can believe the PD can't hit the side of a barn from the inside!!!!
Remember that cops don't carry guns to protect you. They carry them to protect themselves. And most of
them think they can handle anything without drawing their weapon. So they don't practice. Don't need to!!!!

Quote
.308 is Not something I like to shoot in the house
I know if I ever do, I won't be able to hear for a week. But, Hey, that might not be a bad thing!!! Won't be able to
hear them "Honey Do's", or any nagging!!!! Add that to the fact that you get to nominate some fool for the Darwin Awards,
sounds like a "Win, Win" to me.

Ralph

The best way to "kill time" is to work it to death!

I wouldn't need to manage my anger if people would learn to manage their stupidity!!

Offline tomw

  • Not as bad as you might think
  • Senior Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 739
  • Karma: +35/-0
  • hoplophobic people will fear my lifestyle
    • Zubbly's photos!
Re: Civilian Combat Statistics...
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2012, 10:35:22 am »
Funny how folks can have such similar hobbies, interests and pastimes!

Most of us that posted in this thread have some very similar interests and experiences.

I knew what a .357 Herrit was because I actually had one some years ago. Same with the Contenders.

In a home defence situation I would much prefer a 12 guage stuffed with #4's. Deadly insaide a room but rendered faitly impotent after passing through a home wall so less chance of collateral damage to the innocent. This is important for me because, while I am completely willing to jam my pistol in an assailants ear and squeeze off a round, I never want to even nick an innocent while doing so!

I never had a civilian combat encounter but had a full ration of the military version in that SE Asian "Police Action" back 40 years ago or so.  The full on violence is astounding and stupefying. Hopefully that training and experience will kick in should the civilian version intrude on my peaceful existence. The decision to use deadly force to protect myself was made then and should pose no ethical barrier to doing what needs done.

Anyway, I guess a few of you are vets, too since this country seems to have had wars in every generation.  Just another possible bit of common ground.

Just my Monday ramble..

A well armed militia....

Tom
Do NOT mistake me for any kind of "expert".

( ?° ?? ?°)


24 Trina 310 watt modules, SMA SunnyBoy 7.7 KW Grid Tie inverter.

I thought that they were angels, but much to my surprise, We climbed aboard their starship and headed for the skies

Offline wdyasq

  • Forum Advisors
  • Newbie
  • ****
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: +3/-13
  • milliwatt
Re: Civilian Combat Statistics...
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2012, 07:21:27 pm »
Pacifists ..... Just purchased more 'insurance' last week. Actually a gun for the eradication of feral bacon machines. I hope to be able to make it quiet. I will pay the $200 tax to be completely legal, although I don't believe it is withing the 2nd Amendment to require a tax to exercise a "Right". I'll need to ask the next journalist I visit with how much he had to pay for the right of free speech and how many classes he took to be certified to exercise that right.

Ghurd, Taurus has  a nice very light titanium .44 Spl. They also have a nice light .44 magnum. At 29 oz and carrying about 3 oz of bullets, it is a fun thing to discharge .... especially in a enclosed area. Short barreled .357 Magnums are another choice as a powerful small wheelgun as is my favorite wheelgun, the Model 58 S&W in .41 Magnum.

I guess the most important thing to remember to bring to a gunfight would be the gun. When the initial rush of 'gotta be the first' to get the new Springfield XDS, a slim and very light .45ACP, I'll probably get one of those to keep my leash of 1911's company and replace the Ruger LCP as my most often carried firearm.

Well, I need to get busy and do a bit of  work around here. Work does include reloading cartridges then checking the empty hulls for proper firing doesn't it?

Ron

Offline jlt

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • No Personal Text Set by User
Re: Civilian Combat Statistics...
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2012, 07:33:44 pm »

    Iwould use my DanWesson 445 super mag on any intruder.  But only use 44 mag ammo in it. 

         Wouldn't want to over kill them.
         
        JLT

Offline luv2weld

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • No Personal Text Set by User
Re: Civilian Combat Statistics...
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2012, 09:54:01 am »
Tomw,
I understand what you're saying about innocents.
But, since my closest neighbor is 4 miles and on the other side of a ridge, I don't even have to think about
which direction I'm firing. Uhhhh, wait a second. Maybe I better change that. Would not want to hit a propane tank outside
the house!!!! :o

I do have a 12 gauge Mossberg 500 with extended tube. The rounds are alternating--slug, 00 Buck, slug, 00 Buck, etc.
It is right beside the .221 by the computer.

Sounds like we need to start a new thread and see who all the veterans are. I took the senior class trip to S.E. Asia 3 times.
Also a year on the DMZ in Korea and the one that got me medically retired was to the desert.

Ralph
The best way to "kill time" is to work it to death!

I wouldn't need to manage my anger if people would learn to manage their stupidity!!

Offline ghurd

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 442
  • Karma: +22/-0
    • GHurd Solar
Re: Civilian Combat Statistics...
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2012, 05:50:22 pm »
Ron,
For 'quiet machines', need to keep them under around/about 1000FPS.
Something long and heavy with a good BC and maybe a boat tail (not sure if that helps, seems like it would?), at least .30, maybe .35 would be worth researching.
The tax stamp goes with the 'quieter downer'.  It can be moved from noise maker to noise maker, so .30 gives widely varied options.

The Taurus Titaniums are currently a bit out of my almost-a-dozenair price range.
I do like their small-sih frame 7 and 8 shot .357s.

Another commonality?  M500s?
I have a synthetic 18" 12ga M500 with a generic red dot, 3" #4s, by the 'puter.
Also another 12ga M500 with a rifled barrel and 3-9x40 about 6' away from that one, but thats because I've been too lazy to put away the deer gun.
Got the wife a 2-barrel combo M500'C' in 20ga too.
G-

Offline Janne

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • Turbiini
    • Projects
Re: Civilian Combat Statistics...
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2012, 08:15:17 pm »
I've been loading subsonic ammunition for .308win for a while now. The important part, when selecting a rifle for quiet operation is to look at the twist of the rifling. Too low, and long bullets will not stabilize. For .30 1:10" or even 1:8" would be nice. My A-bolt has 1:12", and bullets heavier than 8g won't stabilize at subsonic speeds. 10g stabilizes somewhat, but is not accurate, 12g hits the target sideways every so often. So heavy and long is a bit counter-intuitive here.

Loading those cartridges is also quite a lot of fun. I've been using the fastest pistol powder available here, with normal primers but with flame holes enlarged to 3mm. That should be the safest way of loading those low speed loads.

The silencer though, will work with normal loads too. Of course it will not be completely quiet, but good enough not to disturb neighbours much, or not cause any ear ringing when shooting without earplugs. Highly recommended for every shooter, wonder why it's so "bad" your side of the pond?
Beyond the wolf border