Author Topic: guess who bought a power jack inverter  (Read 204847 times)

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Offline oztules

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #240 on: April 29, 2015, 05:48:05 am »
"Another table puts 1.5mm wire at 9.76ohm/1000m"... for .14R thats closer to 14m.. ie .14/9.76X1000= 14.3m... close to 15m in the first table.
picture?
Trying to imagine them... cloth and shellac....seems a huge core to have for 15va... or is that kva....

If they are torroid standard steel, then for every 3000mmsq, we will be near 1 turn per volt at 50hz possibly...maybe etc etc.

So you may have to stack a few to get the volts per turn up fairly high... just to get the big wire down the middle... and only a few turns. as there is so many, they will do the job for sure. Need to strip one and see the cross sectional area. However, the more steel, the more magnetic domains that need to be realigned every cycle, so our idle current will start to rise as we add more steel to get the turns down.... it's always something  isn't it.


And I'm not hugely jealous either!.... much.....  I'd buy the lot if the hole is a reasonably useful size.... coz I'm greedy that way.



......oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline frackers

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #241 on: April 29, 2015, 06:46:04 am »
Some more numbers now I have hacked at this first sacrificial core..

40 turns (I guess the 200/5 on the name plate would indicate that) as indicated by the resistance
inside (hole) 62.5mm
outside (up against the steel) 146mm
height 135mm - but its a stack of 6 cores, imperial ones no less as they are
1", 1", 1", 1/2", 3/4", 1"

So a bit small really so guess I'll have to check out some more oil drums.

Gets calculator out - cross section is (146 - 62.5) / 2  x 135 = 5636sqmm

Robin Down Under (or are you Up Over!)

Offline oztules

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #242 on: April 29, 2015, 03:09:00 pm »
Yes, the volts are great around 1.7v/turn, a three stack would be 5.1volts/turn... and only 5 turns for the secondary, and 50 or so for the primary.... but gee, small hole to get it done.

Certainly doable, if there is better then good else, they should be fine .... you only have to do it once and it lasts forever... what I keep telling myself when half way through it.

.. good find for all sorts of trannies you can make out of that.... but the lack of wire and mylar means you have to source that stuff elsewhere.


...............oztules

Edit: If I had a drum of those I would build  torroid winding machine.....
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline frackers

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #243 on: April 30, 2015, 06:43:51 am »
Assuming I can get the mylar tape and the wire, I'm working on using 7 of the 1" sections from 2 of these beasts. That gives me (146-62.5)/2*7*25.4 = 7423.15sqmm cross section which is very close to the 2 cores you are using. The only issue will be the smaller hole so the 50sqmm primary might be out and a hunt round the welding shops begun.

Based on the cross section, presumably I could go to the same 114/14 ratio you are using.

No sure where the numbers come from as based on 3000sqmm for a turn/volt then for 240volts & the 7262.4 sqmm on your twin core, that comes in at 99 turns or is there some fudge factor involved? (I though there might be a sqrt2 using peak not RMS volts but that gives 140 turns!!).

Also trying to make sense of the 48volts in to 240 out turns ratio - I guess there is a rms/peak ratio there so that the primary is:
    ((48 - volts drop)/sqrt2)*(secondary/240)
assuming 4 volts lost in wiring and MOSFETs and the 114 turns on your secondary, that gives 14.77 turns.

Am I on the right track?

Cheers
Robin Down Under (or are you Up Over!)

Offline oztules

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #244 on: April 30, 2015, 07:48:45 am »
No.... if we lost 4 volts@120 amps, we would light up Auckland :)

There is no exact science here... just back of the cornflake packet stuff.

Firstly, we need to recognize that the voltage will not be 48v... but anywhere from 46-60v... so the range is quite large. We need to wind for the worst situation where we are low on volts, and are running hard... so we under wind from where you thought, and it seems that around 8:1 for a 48v system is about right to cater for all the losses and make sure we are not going to drive the current to high trying to get 240v rms out from 46v at full load.... the 240v is actually 320v peak as you suggest, so the rms primary is the batt voltage, and the peaks we need at full power of the cycle is 320, so as you say 320/46 is nearer to 7:1... now some head space... and we get to 8:1... and for 24v we get 16:1 etc etc..... yep... gosh I'm scientific about this.... :o

The cores i have are around 3600sqmm from memory for around 1.14v/turn... so 3000 will be near to 1v ( bit less perhaps, but easy to remember)... it is all rule of thumb stuff The figure is higher for EI units.... but as a very rough start line, it should be close enough. You won't find any definitive area/turns figures for the most part, as it is all a bit rubbery, and relies on knowing the steels parameters... which we don't.... but this chinese stuff is in that ball park. Your stuff may be better still, as it is likely old, and likely from a power station or similar govt enterprise in the day.

So to get that information, you can wind a core with x turns... say 12, and hit it with 12vac 50hz, and see if the current is very low... then increase V until you see a knee in the graph, and backwards again. You should find a point where current increases faster than the voltage increase, and this will be near the saturation area, where the inductance is not able to get enough reactance to cancel the EMF easily. At saturation the core behaves like air.....near 3 orders of magnitude worse than the steel... We want the back emf to cancel the forward voltage without using more current than we need.

Remember, with out the reactance due to the inductance and frequency.. the 12 turns will just be a near zero ohm resistor.... and burn up.... as would an air core at this frequency. does that make sense? It is only that the core increases the inductance, that enough reactance will be achieved at 50hz to limit the current..... thats why impedance is measured in ohms. It impedes the flow as a resistor would, except the resistance to flow is dynamic in nature... it changes with the frequency... resistors generally don't ( high frequency mixed with wire wounds do though).

So yes, I'm guessing that at if you can get the 7400mmsq, the 114:14 will work fine, probably better than mine as you will have a few more sqmm... it may be worth a turn or two extra without the turn... lower iron loss perhaps... sheer guess work, but I think we are very close to the truth.... only experiment will tell... I expect it will work fine ;)

To get the thick primary in there... 14 turns will be difficult, maybe more iron, and less turns will allow you get to a stage where the turns are possible with the smaller hole you have.... note my photo. 14 turns of wire took up the whole hole with a single layer.... more would have made it messy, and hard to get a bolt through to hold the thing down. I reckon 20 would have been very very difficult for even this one.... 57 :7 would be easier to wind the primary... a dog for the secondary, and increase the iron loss..... which way to go????

Edit.... the other thing with stacking... the further we get away from a square cross section, the more wire we use for the same result.... ie a square has the shortest perimeter of all the quadrangle shapes for the maximum cross section. As we elongate, we enclose less area for the same perimeter length.... ie longer perimeter to enclose the same area....... just something else to confuse the issue. They do make circular cross section torroids for this reason, but unless your spending someone else's money, you won't afford them.

...................oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline lighthunter

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #245 on: May 03, 2015, 01:11:31 am »
Hi All! Great posts on all the transformer winding! I hope i get the energy
To try it sometime!

I want to update info i wrote in post 186 page 13 regarding powerjack.
AC output volt increase. I had stated that cutting trace between R262and R259 and placing
A 470k resistor across the 2 points would result in 5v output increase.
Good news is it does raise v but the bad news is that it makes voltage regulation unstable.
I cant really explain definites but i have seen voltage drift from 118 to 113 without a reason implyingbattery voltage didnt change and load current didnt change during vout drift.There does seem to be less tight voltage regulation with load changes and with batt voltage change as well.

All in all, if you need to change output voltage of PJ inverter, there might be a better way.

Regards, Lighthunter
Health Warning: May contain traces of nut!
LH

Offline oztules

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #246 on: May 03, 2015, 02:40:41 am »
Davidwillis.

Yes, it can do damage if you interrupt the power to the inverter,,, if there is any sign of reconnection... ie a clean break may be well survivable, but if you break and make  and break.. then there is a good chance the computer will send new timing information to the fets, and hard start the transformers... and that may well be terminal... depending on what part of the curve it gets hit again.

I did this with a mock up for the new transformer... blew the fets, and had to do a quick repair job on it.... poor test connection........


Interesting Lighthunter.

..............oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline lighthunter

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #247 on: May 03, 2015, 07:17:01 pm »
Since i scratched the voltage increase idea described in post 186 i had to do something to fool the control board into increasing voltage. Heres what i did. Took a small 10watt transformer from a music box with a 120v to 5v winding set and configured to a buck circuit. Then removed wires connected to maintxN and connected those wires on a new stud with the black wires going to outlets. Ran the new voltage out from buck ckt to the stud marked maintxN. Essentially bypassed the N transformer lead from touching board. Now control board sees 106v instead of 111v and increases output to get 111. this resulted in outlet voltage regulated at 116vAC. When grid tie is generating this voltage can get as high as 123 but doesnt move much below 114.

That solved, the grid tie is still shutting off once in a while for no apparent reason. Voltages are all in good shape. Max min line to neutral is 107-130 phase-phase max min is 177-266. Im running at 118 phase to neutral and 239 phase to phase. Oztules do you think it could be frequency that is causing problem??? The grid tie max and min are 60.4hz and 59.4. both PJ boards read exactly 60.26hz steady with no grid tie on line. Once grid tie is running my freq meter flashes around a bit on the 3rd and 4th digit. 60.28 and 60.30 60.31 are displayed quite a bit. Nothing higher though but thats awefully close to the 60.4hz max and the time limit to fault is like 1/3 of a second. Noise on line might be able to cause a fault. I dont know. Do you happen to know how close yours run to limit? Anyway, just thoughts. Maybe i need to go a diff direction with this, ive wasted too much time already. Thanks!  Lighthunter
Health Warning: May contain traces of nut!
LH

Offline oztules

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #248 on: May 04, 2015, 03:28:28 am »
Interesting fix I must say.......
The grid tie  units I use are galvanically isolated, and are .5hz +- from 50hz.
I would expect yours would have an error message... is it freq or grid voltage error... it could be from voltage transients on start up of big loads... My frequency sits on 50hz... rock solid, and never shakes the grid tie off from freq.... normally always always voltage related ( on purpose  most of the time ).

The old operator assisted error has resulted in blowing up two boards today..... fat fingers and poor control of the screw driver seem to cause me problems from time to time.

So, I'm in the middle of selecting fets from the heap I have that are NOT up to spec.... , and rebuilding the burn bits of the control board.

I have decided to put in a crowbar across the battery driven by the gate voltage.... so if the gate voltage rises above say 18v, we know a burn out is on the way... and clamp the voltage and blow the main fuse ( 100 amps + 40000uf@60v ).... very big scr's out of an old hydro tasmania charger... absolutely huge... I suspect a few thousand amps of surge is manageable for these puppies... we'll see.... and this time it will be operator assisted suicide..... eagerly anticipating a light show maybe....

I am also interested in comments of an RC network in series with the low side gates.... maybe .1uf and 2k7 as a buffer to stop the 60v getting back into the totems.. would be nice to blow the thing up, but not the control card for a change.... really should not keep experimenting I guess.. or be more careful........ nah more fun this way.

Any thoughts Ross? and others? on the degrading of the signal.... .1 is a heap bigger then the combined gate capacitance...of maybe .006uf or more.


..............oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline rossw

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #249 on: May 04, 2015, 04:02:31 am »
Any thoughts Ross? and others? on the degrading of the signal.... .1 is a heap bigger then the combined gate capacitance...of maybe .006uf or more.

Well, it sounds pretty savage to me... 2K7 and 0.1uF has a timeconstant of 0.27ms.
I wonder how much extra heat the FETs will dissipate with all the extra time in the conducting-but-not-hard-on region.

Offline oztules

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #250 on: May 04, 2015, 06:25:10 am »
At first blush, I though that too..... but the impedance of the load and driver might come into it.
The load is several orders of magnitude higher impedance than the impedance of the "rc" network.
As the RC is driving a high impedance load ( insulated gate), we need only over come the  .006 capacitance of the gates... ie charge it up.... so far so good perhaps... but the 20k gate/source resistors may bring this undone... so we need to maintain the voltage during the cycle, so need a resistor to do this...

I am thinking/hoping, it will behave like a piece of wire, and the 2k7 will hold the gate on after the turn on..... and if we burst..... the 60 volts won't be able to get back into the totems with any voracity and, maybe a 15v zenner on the driver too.

Then, the other half of me thinks, I'm just degrading the wave form..... guess I'll have to test and see what happens.... you think this too.... bad omen :-\

Any simple ideas to stop the shorted gates driving 60v back into the low side drivers ( don't care about the high side )

Edit except my argument don't stand up.... the 2k7 is the load too..... bummer... that what you get for thinking...
Edit2 no... I will have to try this out and see the wave forms.....


..............oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline lighthunter

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #251 on: May 04, 2015, 06:23:35 pm »
Regardng low side driver protection. Not sure there is room but why couldnt you use.
Electrolytic caps in series with gate connection. you just have to choose a value large enough so you stay below one time constant of the capacitor effective- R x C value at the frequency they are switching. Come to think of it a few mfd should do it, may not need electrolytic.
Thats how designers always used to block dc current flow in audio final stage  circuits (dc is kinda hard on spkr coils) , nowadays they have mastered the thermal runaway and biasing problems so they dc couple amps to speakers for the sake of those few who claim hearing abilities below 20hz and above 5khz. Maybe there is a slight gain in accuracy with dc coupling but in any case it would block the 60v when cap charged up the bad thing is you need a pulldown resistor on fet gate side ...should b one anyway.
Maybe thats what you meant by rc circuit you mentioned, i dont see why it wouldnt work as long as cap is large enuf.

Regarding error msg on grid tie? Yeah that would be nice. The only manual i found states that the installer who has proprietary software is able to choose what is and is not displayed on the front panel lcd. All it tells me when it quits is a PJ that starts whining loudly as it just got left to pull the load by itself and the watt meter on grid tie sometimes shows a ramped down value like 400w and AC LED goes off, you hear a click and then display reads, "Inverter offline"d
Health Warning: May contain traces of nut!
LH

Offline MadScientist267

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #252 on: May 04, 2015, 08:15:57 pm »
20 to >5kHz hearing range as a claim? O.o

Mine is degrading with age but I am almost 41 and guarantee I can still hear at least to 16kHz...

But that's not why I'm replying :P

Beefed up totem poles and a really low value fuse between the output and the gates? Say, 1/4A? Average current shouldn't be a problem with the fuse and the beefier transistors could take the heat while the fuse is on its way out during an "event"...?

Just a thought, May still be problems upstream I suppose but worth a look possibly.

Steve
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Offline oztules

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #253 on: May 04, 2015, 09:50:50 pm »
Steve,
I'm pondering a few things in this area, and that is one I have actioned to some extent ( ordered the micro fuses).
This should stop the burning under the totems I would hope.... may even save them... but 50 cents worth of transistors is not a problem.

I had heard of the cap/resistor thing from a fellow in South Australia.... but have not heard from him since... but I will give it a whirl... but I tend towards Ross's assessment.... the other bloke is an EE so I have to think he knows something i dont ( I'm a hack).

I have some massive scr to crowbar the thing as well, and will give that a go too.

Sadly this needs to be done.... although, they only blow up when I mess with them, never had a problem when I leave well enough alone... but you don't learn or improve like that I suppose..... poking things in the wrong places by mistake/slip off the wire under test  seems to account for the majority of problem stuff ups... that and the battery charging change back..... was it just a oncer or does it do it most of the time..... takes a few bangs to get the idea that it is a problem... not an aberration.

I don't know why I enjoy this stuff.


.........oztules

Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline rossw

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #254 on: May 05, 2015, 01:46:01 am »
Oz, I'm wondering - when you said "RC", I was thinking you were doing the "conventional" thing that implies - a resistor in series and a cap to ground.

In the light of other comments, I'm wondering if you actually meant a "capacitively-coupled" drive, with a cap in series and the resistor to ground (on the FET gate side).

If this is the case, then it might work. The cap won't slow down the edges, but it won't drive the fet gate for long, so the capacitance will need to be high enough to charge and then to hold against the 2k7 to ground.

Caps in series will act like a divider - if the gate is say, 1nf and your ac coupling is 100nf, you're going to get (100/101) of the input to the gate (near enough).

BUT.... if/when the fet blows and pulls the gate to +60V, the cap is going to let that through to the driver - albeit briefly. Will it have enough energy to kill the driver? Perhaps not. It may indeed be worth trying.