Author Topic: guess who bought a power jack inverter  (Read 204817 times)

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Offline andymack

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #210 on: April 18, 2015, 08:18:00 pm »
Big Thanks to Oztules and the rest for such a great thread.

I did read the whole thread a little while ago (long enough to have forgotten quite a bit)  -  but it has inspired me to acquire a pair of 2.5kW Aero-sharps.  Crikey!! I can't believe how heavy they are !!!   

I presume they are virtually identical to Inspire inverters ?
I also presume the toroids are larger than the 1.5kW since they are 7kg heavier??
I've only just taken the lid off so I haven't had a good look at the toroid yet.

My ambition is to use these to make an off-grid 48V 6kW inverter.  If it works as hoped I'll make another for the shed.

I'm currently running on a 24v 10kW solar bank - my own design solar controller into 320 Ah lithium batteries (coming up to 3 years old), 3000W latronics, and just replaced a deceased chinese non transformer inverter with a 24v 8000W powerjack (i'll de-rate to 3000W)

Next year we'll be building a new shed / house on our property and it'll be a 48v 10kW solar, 320Ah Li system , hopefully with 2 x 6kW PJ homebuilt inverters.

Cheers

Andrew
 

Offline oztules

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #211 on: April 19, 2015, 01:41:51 am »
Welcome to the club.
The inspire and the aerosharp share the same topology, but do it all differently ... both have similar transformer capacity/s.

it is sobering when you pick up an inspire or a aerosharp... they feel the goods alright.

I have not had a 2.5 aerosharp, but I have a few 3kw aerosharps and 1.5's, and I dread shifting the 3kw ones, they are that heavy.

Two of those trannies will give you 6kw easliy..... unfortunately, the aerosharp is a shallower box than the inspire, and so you won't fit the transformers into the aerosharp carcass.

3kw or a bit more is reasonable derating for the 8kw units.... although my first pj had 2 x 5kw pj transformers, and it  probably worked ok for 5kw , and 6 or more for shorter periods..... but have never seen the 5kw transformers in any other PJ i have seen ( probably closer to 3kwmax each) just a lucky first one I guess.

If you marry  the pj boards to the big transformers, you will have a very useful inverter that will run the place fine.

Have fun with it.


.................oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline OTG

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #212 on: April 21, 2015, 04:27:24 am »
A late response, but welcome to the LF club Robs! :-)

As a fellow LF5000 owner I'm surprised your unit can't handle a fully loaded 240v socket. Per my own below linked thread, mine faults at 3kw but it still breezes through heavy single socket loads (e.g. kettle, electric lawn mower, and my own washing machine). Plus I've never seen any of the overload alarms just shut the thing off, you usually get about a minutes warning.

So I'd suggest it's likely something behind your inverter... what voltage is your setup, what gauge are your wires, battery set-up, etc? Can you get an DC amperage reading under load?

Also I suggest you do some tests to get to know your inverters various thresholds and alarm/error codes. That way you know what your dealing with.

Failing all else, switch to cold washes! :-P

http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,959.0.html

Hi everyone

Bought this inverter from Power Jack 5000 LF couple of months ago but never got to actually use it until i got the battery bank ready. got that ready, got solar panels to charge my battery but my inverter stops working for some reason. I think is because it overheats, trying to use my washing machine and when the water heater from the washing machine kicks in it gives out 3 short beeps and turns off. The watts on the display goes up to 2500 - 2600 and i thought it supposedly halve a continuous 5000 watts.  Any help is appreaciated, hence i can't get in contact with the seller from ebay.  Thank you

Yes it's all true.
In a moment of weakness I decided to buy a power jack inverter to play with.... and it looks like this.
(Attachment Link)

It looks like this inside... warranty blown right there......

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)



Well there it is.
This one is a 24v unit ( my mistake ), but it can do what it says. I can run loads of 6kw or more without problems.... I had the electric stove on, the hot water on and then the water jug..... and it turned off after a minute or so.... can't complain really, the stove was 3200w the hot water some 2500w, and the jug another 2500w... so all up it tried to do over 8000w... I don't now if it was batt under voltage, or power overload... one or the other, because over 8000w is over 300 amps, and I think I had voltage drop in the line... surprise suprise.
The 200 amp meters were way past their stops, and it will never again have to try this, but i could not get it to trip any other way.

So it was impressive to say the least. It also started the 3 phase converter, which is a 3 ph 10hp induction motor running in delta@240v from single phase...... so it can start darn big inductive loads too..

About this time I was becoming rather impressed, as i didn't think it had the  ticker for this kind of abuse, so it seemed I needed to take a more serious look at this thing.

I had bought it because it was darn cheap, with free shipping to this island.... and as it weighs over 60lbs or 32kg, it is not so easy to get stuff that heavy sent here... so I bought it as a back up.

I was becoming of the view that this wasn't a toy like the ones I had heard and seen on the web earlier.... so decided to do some more testing.


Well it wasn't all tea and bikkies I'm afraid.

The engineers have not addressed the idle current other than a sleep mode at 25 watts.... but an awake mode of no power draw costs a whopping 8 amps..... yes you read that right .... 8 amps at idle.

Now as a cheap back up this is acceptable.... but as a house driving unit.. it is not good news to burn up over 5kwh a day and do nothing.

So it was time to try a few things we have learnt from the other unit I have ( the power star thing).

It already has two whopping torroids ( worth buying just for them ), so it was not going to be addressed like the power star was.

So I wound this:

(Attachment Link)

This solved the problem.... now idle currents were down in the sub 1 amp range.... in fact now it could be alive all the time, and waste less than 20 watts..... less than their sleep mode...... so 3 and a half turns around a 65mm e core made the thing very very acceptable as a front line unit..... who'd have thought.... a power jack as a front line unit.

Well it's true, it has been running the house... including the electric hot water for the last few weeks. The only thing on grid is the stove.... so usage from the grid was about 1kwh per day, and the house was running at about 11-13 kwh/day.

There was one other thing of interest here.

I have panels running at 300 volts and more intp grid tie inverters into the batteries via the inverter.... ie the grid ties run on the output of the inverter. When the house loads are greater than the grid ties can manage, the inverter takes up the slack, when the grid ties put out more than the house can use, the extra is fed back through the inverters output, and back through the sitching fets and transformers into the batteries.

I have seen in excess of 170 amps being back fed into the batteries via this method. The drawback is you need a big dump load on the batteries, or a cut out system to sequentially turn off the grid ties to keep the batteries from over charge.

If this is allowed to go, then the power jack will turn off when the batteries exceed 32v... which is the final safety in all of this.....THIS DOES NOT INVOLVE THE GRID for those folks wondering..... this is strictly off grid antics.

It is interesting to note, that without the e core filter in series with the primaries of the transformers, it would not grid tie to the grid inverters... but rather, blow all the overloaders in the ac line to the inverters.

With the filter in place, it was perfectly happy to be the grid, and sync the grid ties to it's output, and reverse flow the power to the batteries.... but not without the carrier filter.

So the big filter did two things, made the inverter a classy unit, and allowed it to back feed grid tie inverter inputs into it's outputs.

To say that I am impressed is an understatement. It appears bullet proof, and the spare parts ARE available.

Thats the clincher for me, in fact after I chased them up, they have even put the spares on ebay... about 170 dollars for the entire innards of the machine... ie power board, and control board, battery selector board, and driver board for the display..... just add transformers and a box, and you have built your own..

Before you rush out and do just that...... it is heaps cheaper to just buy theirs, as the cost of those torroids over here are over 1500 dollars alone, cheaper in the UK, don't know about USA. The transformers are over 25 lbs each....

One problem I had was the 24v part... I was set up for 48v..... so I had to do something about it.
I rearranged the battery pack to reflect the new setup... now it was 1500AH @ 24v

Re wired the solar panels for 24v ( left 4kw as 350v for the real grid ties ), and that gave me about 130amps of 35v solar power.

Now I needed a controller.
I sat down and scribbled a circuit of sorts out, and fleshed it out as I designed the board.. and finished up with this

(Attachment Link)

It is about 10am, and already it is up at 80 amps

(Attachment Link)
I have seen it at 120 amps. The heat sink ( and no those burn marks are form when this heat sink belonged to someone elses 2500w HF pure sine inverter) stays at less than just over skin temp even at high currents. The wave form is very clean, but swithcing at only about 4khz... makes the "layout" simple.

Here is the current going to the batteries after the power jack has used a few up from the incoming 80 odd amps
(Attachment Link)

May do an article on that if folks really want to try it.

Here is the wave form of the makeshift "solar controller" ( not the power jack.... that  is pure sine) when it is running at only 40 or so amps after the bulk of the charging is done ( mid morning )
(Attachment Link)

All in all...... I love my power jack..... did not expect to ever say that in a million years.


................oztules

Offline davidwillis

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #213 on: April 22, 2015, 02:04:23 pm »
Sorry, this may be a dumb question, but how hard is it to convert a 10000W 24V inverter into a 10000W 48V inverter? 

Offline tomw

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #214 on: April 22, 2015, 03:17:21 pm »
Sorry, this may be a dumb question, but how hard is it to convert a 10000W 24V inverter into a 10000W 48V inverter?

Probably not as hard as threading a length of cooked spaghetti up a wildcats arse but pretty close.

Especially if you have to ask how.  :o

Just saying..

Tom
Do NOT mistake me for any kind of "expert".

( ?° ?? ?°)


24 Trina 310 watt modules, SMA SunnyBoy 7.7 KW Grid Tie inverter.

I thought that they were angels, but much to my surprise, We climbed aboard their starship and headed for the skies

Offline oztules

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #215 on: April 22, 2015, 03:56:22 pm »
err yep... what Tom said.

In fact it is very simple if you have the parts available, or are prepared to do a bit of rewinding.

1. The transformers need to be stripped, the stacks glued together, and rewound as a single transformer.... you should have three... or at least two.. never know with these folks.... three would be nice. Use 1/3 the turns for the 240v/110v winding as in original, and twice the turns on a single original transformer ( 24v turns) for the 48v winding... thats step 1... simple but time consuming.... if you only got two transformers, then  1/2 turns for the HV winding, and the same total turns for the 24v winding with both cores .

Eg. 240v unit... if you had 5 turns: 240 turns on a single original, and we have three, they will be series primary, and parallel secondary... so it will look like 15 turns of primary to 240 turns of secondary. When we stack three, we divide the turns by 3... so 5 turns to 80 turns for 24v but we want 48v so multiply the primary by two, and we see 10 turns to 80 turns on the three stack transformer for the 48v version..... the HV winding needs to be wound with three in hand for the same power handling as the original three  ( more power actually, as we have effectively gotten rid of a lot of copper, almost 1 entire transformer worth) in short, you want to end up with about an 8:1 ratio for 48v 240v transformer.

Plan B if you don't want to unwind the long HV windings... and rewind three in hand, is to just stack the three transformers together after removing the big LV windings... strap them together as a single cylinder, and get as big a welding or battery cable as you can fit in there to wind twice the turns of a single Lv winding off the original. This will give you a better transformer than the originals, but not as good the first conversion. The top conversion will yield a significantly better transformer than the originals.

2. Your main fet board..... depends on what fets they used. If they used IRFB4110, then no change, if they used fets with less than 75v S/Drain then you need to frreplace them with 24 IRFB4110... probably $24.

3. The control card... either buy a new 48v one off ebay seller ( get the 15kw 48v 110 or 240v one) and install... now your finished.
OR you will have to track down the voltage sensing for the main chip, and shunt that, so that it sees half the voltage it would currently see.... and possibly change the capacitor next to the power supply  with a 100v rather than a 50v one.. although I think they are all 100v now.... they used to use 50v in some of the 48v ones.. and they explode quite well...

So it is easy of you say it quickly.... or maybe the wild cat is a better option if you don't like playing with transformers.


...............oztules

Edit: It is easy to say get 24 x 4110's, but in practice it is more difficult to do this for a reasonable outlay.
If you buy off ebay or aliexpress , it is normal to be fleeced.. ie I bought 300 4110's hoping they wouldn't be, but  knowing they probably would be fakes.... but if you test the Rds on of each of them, you normally end up with a selection of pretty good fets for very little money... at least 200 of those tested less than .007ohms, which for 100v fets is pretty good... not as good as the advertised .0037R, but good none the less.....
So Test them and keep the like with the like, and use the lowest rds on the low side switchers, and the higher rds on for the high side switches..... some of the ones I got were terrible at .024R... effectively a BUK455 60A... but at 100v... so even though they were "lousy" they are better than my stock BUK's.. so it is not all sour grapes.

It looks like they are the rejects from the batches, and some cunning devil sells them for next to nothing ... and they are fakes.... but mostly good enough for most projects. The voltage seems to be reliable, so it looks like the insulated gates are not quite right, (thickness and surface area) and this effects both the capacitance and the Rdson.... but the die types seems to keep the voltage ok........ or maybe they know most won't notice running slightly warmer, but would notice right away if they blew up on switch on.

Interestingly, the lower Rdson ones have lower gate capacitance, so turn on easier.... and this may actually help the heating stakes more than the rds on being wrong... I don't know, it will depend on the current in your driver.

Use a constant current source, and drive the gate at at least 11v, and measure the millivolt drop across the d-s pins right at the case... do the math, and establish the new rds on... then  mark it on the case!... don't just create piles of the same sizes... they will get messed up somehow, and you have to do it all again... wonder how I know....
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline davidwillis

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #216 on: April 22, 2015, 05:55:30 pm »
Sorry, this may be a dumb question, but how hard is it to convert a 10000W 24V inverter into a 10000W 48V inverter?

Probably not as hard as threading a length of cooked spaghetti up a wildcats arse but pretty close.

Especially if you have to ask how.  :o

Just saying..

Tom

haha... That does not sound easy... I think I will stick with 24V

I may give it a go some day when I have some time.

Thanks

Offline DBCollen

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #217 on: April 23, 2015, 10:52:10 am »
Oz,

With all your modifications to these PowerJack inverters, Shouldn't they be called PowerHack?  ;D
Dustin.

Offline oztules

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #218 on: April 23, 2015, 09:16:54 pm »
Not sure what to call them now.... but they are by far the best thing for a hobbyist to buy....you can fiddle without worrying about how much it will cost to fix it up if you drop the screwdriver into the wrong place... and beat the best of them if you mod them them a bit... and at least you can.


.............oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline andymack

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #219 on: April 24, 2015, 02:17:15 am »
Thanks Oztules

I've been reading and re-reading the relevant forum threads.  Feeling light headed now  :)

Just for reference, the AeroSharp 2k5 Transformer weighs 15kg as it comes out of the box.  approx. 215mm x 80mm  over the windings.

At this stage I'm planning to buy the PJ 15000 main + control brd kit  as you have suggested.

Can i check the Toroid recipe so far (48v - 2 cores ):

  • Strip entirely all windings off the 2 cores.
  • lay the secondary  114 turns , 2 in hand or 2 layers parallel'd  using 2mm dia wire.
  • lay the primary of 15 turns of approx 75mm^2
  • epoxy everything as you go, first the cores, each layer of secondary, do you bother gluing the secondary?
  • test by feeding 240vac into the Sec. (charging via a lamp - switching it out) and looking for approx 30v on the primary


Cheers

Andrew

Offline oztules

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #220 on: April 24, 2015, 04:53:29 pm »
Andrew,
Yes to all.

Strip the torroids. You will need those plastic left over spools from plumbers tape or similar to take the mylar plastic wrap off easily and in one length.. you will need a few of these, or take one off and then wind it onto another former and continue. This is important, as you will need to reuse this later, and it will keep it under control.

Also use a stick to wind the wire onto about 800mm long. If you use iron 6mmX38mm like I did, plastic wrap it first with tape so as not to allow steel onto enamel when you unwind. Once unwound, stretch it out and use a straightener device ( mine is three bearings on a board that I wind them through and pull.) and straighten it out properly. Straight wire is important to get a neat and more importantly a compact winding.... rewind onto a former for reuse.

I find a solder reel can hold enough of the 2mm wire to get the 114 turn on. The solder reel will allow you to wind tight neat windings.

Wind the second secondary next, it should end up pretty neat, as there are not a lot of windings there for such a big core.

Once thats done, epoxy it. This will stop any wire vibration which is the achilles heel  of torroids. It will also make your inverter silent or so close it's not funny.. even at high power.

Then the mylar tape over that..... ... and we assume you left the original on the core in place. For reference it has glass matting around the perimeters, and then the mylar wrapped over that.

If you cant fit all the wire for a single winding on your solder spool, it is not a crime to have a few joins along the way, just make sure they are twisted and soldered and insulated.... there is tons of room for this if necessary.

Then it is time for the welding cable or whatever you choose, and so your 14 or 15 turns. Find wire with thin sheath, so you stand a good chance of single layer of wrap. Use clamps if necessary to keep it tight as you wind and get the bends tight too. Don't epoxy the  75mmsq cable... not necessary in any way. It is both silent because of the sheath, and vibration is not a problem for the same reason.

Yes, the test will have to have a soft start device, and a 100w globe will do fine...otherwise it will blow any sized over loader you may have in the house. Inrush current is monstrous with this transformer, a 30 amp over loader will not handle it at all if it starts at or anywhere near zero crossing..... once running it will have very low current though ( short the globe out, which will be virtually off anyway by then).

With a 15kw mainboard, and a 15kw card, you will be hard pressed to find anyone who can out drive you with this setup. Mine will start a 10hp three phase motor lightly loaded.... using 1000uf on the spare phase for starting, and 200uf  for running without any pause... same as if I start it on the grid power. ( I use it for my rotary inverter... single to three phase 240v).

Your best to make your own arrangements for the fan, but you may need a small fan with three leads on it plugged into the fan socket to make the computer happy.... it won't ever come on in my experience in this configuration, but it needs to see it.

I use twin 120mm fans on the fet board, one in front, one in back.. they rarely come on, but if you want to run 3-5kw for any period, they will , and still keep it at 38c-45c
( thats using a comparator, a fet and a thermistor attached to the low side drive heat sink.

I will do a full article from start to finish soon, as I have to build one for a remote island.. with one person on it....


......oztules

Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline andymack

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #221 on: April 24, 2015, 06:32:38 pm »

WOW - thanks Oztules.   Fantastic instructions.

Like many, my experience to transformers only extends to what I learnt at Uni, some 30 years ago.
So NIL actual transformer winding experience.

but eager to give it a go  :)

Offline oztules

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #222 on: April 24, 2015, 09:58:13 pm »
some pics that may help

1: my unwinding stick.. about 30 inches of 6mmx38mm with grey tape all the way up  and more black tape at the ends. You don't want to scratch the enamel unnecessarily... you won't believe how tired your shoulder will be by the time you have unwound all the wire.... maybe over 4kg of wire... I haven't measured it myself....

3943-0

2. Then you need something like this to straighten it out... twice over with this seems to do it.
The wire on the former is from winding a secondary ( nothing to do with straightening the wire... just easy to use to show wire through the bearings.)
... note it has been trimmed around the perimeter to get it through the hole as it got smaller
3944-1

3. Then wind it up
3945-2

4. tape goes on here... like these.

3946-3


.....oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline andymack

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #223 on: April 24, 2015, 11:48:30 pm »
thanks for the photos.  I was going to ask for a photo of, especially the roller contraption.  :)

BTW - if someone has a blown PJ FET board they don't want - (or any other PJ parts)  I'll make arrangements to get it to Brisbane. 
If anything pans out it'll benefit all.

Andrew

Offline oztules

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #224 on: April 25, 2015, 02:38:02 am »
Your welcome.....

We forgot one step...... glue the cores together.. I used a layer of glass and epoxy for that The gap seems not to make any difference, but will stop a whole lot of noise.


Note:..... try to play with the copper as little as possible other than what you must do... it work hardens, and 2mm copper work hardened is pretty strong, no where near as malleable as it was when they wound it with a machine... bummer really... but you gotta do what you gotta do too....
ie
First we unwind it off the torroid... still soft.
Then we unwind it from the stick.... still pretty soft...
Then we straighten it with the bearings, this hardens it a bit.... then we do it again ... harder still...
Then we roll it up on a former.... harder again.....
Then we roll it up on a solder roll or equiv.... getting pretty springy by now...

Then we roll it onto the torroid.... now you can see what I mean. The copper you pull off is not going to behave the same as the copper you roll back on the torroid... nothing we can do to alter this, but just be aware, and as it gets harder... thats why.

Also, count the turns as you take off the 240v winding.... no-one has used the 2.5 aerosharp, so it may be different to the inspire ones at 1.14/turn.
So you may need more or less than 114 turns... you will need half of whatever you take off.

There is also a chance they do not use 2mm wire, and use 2 in hand 1.6 or similar... this is a mixed fortune, as you will have to wind more secondaries to get the same power ratings.... maybe 3 layers of 1.6 instead of 2 layers of 2mm for between 6 and 7mm^2... but the layers will be easier to wind, but one more of them.... not sure if that better or worse.



......oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia