Author Topic: guess who bought a power jack inverter  (Read 204810 times)

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Offline off the wall

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #195 on: April 08, 2015, 12:03:05 pm »
Incredibly helpful information and thank you so much. It is rather a good idea to do reverse winding rather than take off, as you say.

I did an experiment today with a winding of 11 turns and it gave a 6.5 to 7 volt result. When added to the HV winding this gave the same 226V or so result as the unit in use but as it was under a 1200W load, the reading isn't comparable and I will repeat this evening with the house turned over to the grid and the inverter at rest to get both transformers at equal potential.

This thread that you've inspired and helped so many with is really brilliant as the PJ inverters really do enable so many of us to experiment with off-grid power that was too expensive to be imaginable a decade ago.

Many thanks

Best wishes

OTW

Offline oztules

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #196 on: April 08, 2015, 06:42:16 pm »
3866-0

If you use your imagination, the front three torroids can be power transformers with the primary already wound, and the one on the right has a few turns of secondary on it..
The stack of three at the back has a secondary on as well.... you can see there is a shorter wire length on the stack, than three secondaries like the red on on the three separate ones.... so thats for the secondaries.

If you imagine now how much wire you would save on the three stack on the primaries.... there will be no more wire between the torroids, and the primary will be the same as the black secondary.... so a big saving.

It makes the primary more than windable too... ie instead of 200 turns for mine, it is only 70 odd ( cant recall ) but not as bad as the 200 odd.... to get more current carrying power, we do need to use more in hand wire for the primary, but it seems easier to do three lots of 70 than one lot of 210.... you can use smaller bobbins, and this makes it easier to wind nicely.


...........oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline frackers

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #197 on: April 08, 2015, 11:12:56 pm »
We now have 1/2 the turns on the LV winding, as it now encompasses twice the core area than original, so half the turns, and so we can now double the wire cross section to make up for that...... we get a more powerful transformer as we have shortened the wire path, so resistance  goes down, as does temperature.

I'm confused by this - I can understand halving the number of LV turns if the HV windings are in series but isn't it the ratio of the number of turns from LV to HV side that needs to be maintained if the HV windings are in parallel?

Still to negotiate shipping costs on a couple of sets of PJ boards, maybe if I can get them without heat-sinks the freight will be much less (can get HUGE chunks of aluminium from the local scrap yard!).
Robin Down Under (or are you Up Over!)

Offline off the wall

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #198 on: April 09, 2015, 04:34:43 am »
I'm confused by this - I can understand halving the number of LV turns if the HV windings are in series but isn't it the ratio of the number of turns from LV to HV side that needs to be maintained if the HV windings are in parallel?

Wonderful post on this subject - OZT - thanks so much. But I wasn't going to trouble you to say that I was equally confused on just this aspect also without making sure that your great contribution and help was of wider interest than just to me.

The ability to save power with these transformers makes working with the PJ units as components really worthwhile even if one does have access to bigger and dirty transformers. I've got a 48V 150Amp battery charger to turn into an inverter at some stage . . .

Best wishes

OTW

Offline oztules

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #199 on: April 09, 2015, 04:51:35 am »
I won't go into the theory, so this is an inaccurate representation of what we can see, rather than calculate the cross sectional area of the core, and area of the loops etc etc.... I aint that smart.

So I will explain it incorrectly but for the same result.

Looking at the three stack above.. look at the length of wire in each turn in each of the primary and secondary ( black wire secondary here).
Because the primaries will be parallel, nothing changes there, and they can be considered as a single winding , three times the current of a single one... just as we would expect.

Each primary has only 1/3rd the total length/height of the "new" torroid... ( only talking about the length in the core area, forget the rest).....
Now look at the black secondary, its length is three times the length of each of the primary bits in the core, and exposed to the same field all the way through..... so it is effectively three electrical turns compared to the primaries for each real physical turn... so in effect the turns ratio of any one of the primaries to the single secondary is the same as in the original if we divide the secondary by three.... as all three primaries are parallel, this holds for all of it.

More properly we would look at the core area.... the primaries are only wound around 1/3 the core than the secondary is wound.. so the secondary will exhibit three times the EMF  than a single turn of the primary would do.... so the secondary needs to be divided by three to keep the "turns ratio" the same, as they are not in the same environment.... one of those explanations should get the ahha reflex going.

Your turns ratio that you are talking about only holds true if the turns are on the same core... here we have pulled a shifty ... and the core of the secondary is three times the size of any primary..... so different frames of reference really.

 We would do this to not have to rewind the whole thing. Some folks don't want to unwind the 200 turn inner core, and so this helps them get some better efficiency... we can see that a full rewind allows us to use 1/3 the number of inner turns too, and then the same physical ratio as the original will be in place as they will share the same cores this time..... but look at all the wire you save then...  gets worthwhile to do the whole rewind...... trust me.... I'm an idiot....

Here it is in real life
First the two transformers:

3867-0

Then we wrap them together with tape after pulling off the 130v winding ... keeping only the 240v winding on each core:

3868-1

Then wind your secondary for 48v for two cores... note the number.


3869-2

Then we do it with three cores... and look at the drop in turns of the primary LV winding now

3870-3

Actually that has full rewind of 1/3 the 240v original, and 1/3 the LV original I would have needed.





Frackers.....
I would try to get the 15kw driver and a complete 15kw power card.. the heat sinks don't weigh very much anyway, but would be a pain to reproduce properly.... I have seen those boards advertised last week on the USA site I think.... they were not obvious, and may take some ebay skill to find.... that way it is an off the shelf 7-8kw unit.

edit: found it http://www.ebay.com/itm/Main-Board-Control-Board-for-LF3000-15000w-pure-sine-wave-power-inverter-/121372307145?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item1c425a6ec9

....................oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline frackers

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #200 on: April 09, 2015, 07:04:42 pm »
I would try to get the 15kw driver and a complete 15kw power card.. the heat sinks don't weigh very much anyway, but would be a pain to reproduce properly.... I have seen those boards advertised last week on the USA site I think.... they were not obvious, and may take some ebay skill to find.... that way it is an off the shelf 7-8kw unit.

edit: found it http://www.ebay.com/itm/Main-Board-Control-Board-for-LF3000-15000w-pure-sine-wave-power-inverter-/121372307145?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item1c425a6ec9

Aaaahhhhh "Does not ship to New Zealand"

Boo hoo

I'll see if a mate in the USA or UK can re-ship...
Robin Down Under (or are you Up Over!)

Offline oztules

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #201 on: April 10, 2015, 03:48:31 am »
The big 15kw mainboard is definitely worth while, as is the 15kw control card.
It amazes me that you can "buy it now" a 15kw unit for $999 - $2100 " buy it now"

..... can't begin to guess what differences there are inside... but at least the boards will be the same i think.. and they really do rock.

The 8kw units are  ( the ones I have anyway) are the same as the 15kw mainboard electrically, but the huge sinks are useful in real use, as the fan can be off nearly all the time....

The 8kw units can perform the same as the 15kw units, if you cool them accordingly, and increase the current ( throttle back the CT)...except for the transformers, and they are under done in all cases for proper ratings................ but the extra real estate on the 15kw is well  worth it for my money.... get it if you can.

I have rebuilt a 8kw mainboard with vey large heat sinks, but it is definately easier with the originals.


...............oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline off the wall

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #202 on: April 10, 2015, 04:36:24 am »
Thanks so much for your transformer photos and explanations - really helpful.

I find it odd that the transformers are not cooled through an air current through their centre . . .

One does not need to go through ebay to buy. If you email powerjack.cher )at( >gmail< )dot( com she will help and say that David in England put you in touch.

The information above in this thread is relevant. I bought a cheaper unit from the stock in Ireland and the unit had one transformer instead of two with extra cooling. For 12V I'm not concerned about that but for house systems on 24 or 48V it's important to get the 8000W unit with two transformers or the 15000 with three. It may be better to order from Cher and have it sent from China, paying the extra, and she really does do her best within her power to do so to make sure that what is sent out is what one wants. It's probably going to cost more than you think you can get it on ebay, but it will be worth whatever extra you pay.

Best wishes

OTW

Offline oztules

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #203 on: April 10, 2015, 07:09:57 am »
Yes, Cher is helpful, there is no doubt.
The first 8000w 24v pj had 2 of their 5000w transformers.. the second  ( 8000w 48v) had two 3000w transformers, and we have seen 1 single transformer and fan.

If you can source torroids in NZ, then buy just the 15kw boards, if not,,,, take a deep breath and order the biggest transformers PJ can get into it.... big torroids are very expensive anywhere else unless you can get hold of heavy grid ties... these dead grid ties will be cheap, and the best you will get I suspect.

If you can source older transformers from old welders, and are prepared to suck it and see, the laminates may be good enough to squeak through,..... nowhere near as good as a poor torroid, but heaps better than the W7 power star transformers that loose 5kwh/day..... a good welder transformer thoughtfully rewired ( keep the fields well well away from saturation) should yield good results.... maybe as low as 1-2kwh/day or better..... good torroids will get to less than .5kwh/day if you try hard.

If you "over wind" the coils, you will get slightly higher copper losses, but will probably more than make up for it with lower iron losses... ie wind for 300v:37v instead of say 240v:30v as you would with a torroid.... this gets the field strength down, and that drops off the magnetising current way more than linearly if they wound originally near saturation( and they probably would... no reason to give you more iron than absolutely necessary is there....).... stacking cores makes this even easier to achieve as the winding is easier and less turns, so a few more is not that big of a deal mentally...

Plenty for the Fracked one to ponder now.

................oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline lighthunter

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #204 on: April 10, 2015, 09:11:22 pm »
Amazing info Oztules, on transformer winding! Ive had a couple discussions with the wise and learned about winding techniques ive learned from you  ;D Good stuff, Not everyone willing to think outside box. :)

I received fet driver chips. Since I couldnt get identical ones locally i thought it might be good to post in case someone thinks substitute is bad idea. First pic is original IC A3120 second pic is FOD3120 fairchilds' version of the circuit. Supposed to be a higher current less noise design.
Health Warning: May contain traces of nut!
LH

Offline lighthunter

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #205 on: April 11, 2015, 10:35:42 pm »
Fairchild 3120 installed, seems to work fine. Still not sure about diode omission???
Only tested to modest 800w will get better workout tomorrow.

Cheers, Lighthunter
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LH

Offline oztules

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #206 on: April 12, 2015, 08:53:41 am »
It only switches at 50hz.... should struggle on fine i suspect.

The high side heat sink is always cooler than the high frequency low side for that reason.

 I trust the noise has gone now.

.............oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline lighthunter

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #207 on: April 12, 2015, 05:41:27 pm »
Yes, inverter is extremely quiet now. Its become daily runner now since it has.
Volt increase and 120/240 capable. I dont think fan ckt works at all so i just tie it
To the 24v thru a resistor for a medium speed. Did u rig a hall effect switch on battery
Leads or how did you do fan control?

"The High side heat sink is always cooler than the high frequency low side for that reason." ..

....ok theres Something i dont understand about the circuit then. I had thought this was just an.
H bridge switching bat current thru low v winding at say 5khz. Basically a class D amplifier using hf pwm to simulate 60hz or 50 whichever. I think you are suggesting something a little different. Oh i get it, they are only switching the polarity at one side of winding at 50/60hz while pwm is all done on the other side of winding. so that would mean they were already using the pwm fets for bi-directinal current b-e-f-o-r-e you used them to back up power from grid ties to battery.
Just guessing, i havent had power board out to hav a look. Yep, im slow to catch on. I really hadnt looked closely at a class d amp until a few months ago.

Thanks for thoughts! by the way i actually saw 2160 steady from 2.2k pnl today usually 1850 is max.
Regards,
Lighthunter

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LH

Offline oztules

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #208 on: April 12, 2015, 11:20:00 pm »
Fan circuit was just an op-amp, a fet and a ntc sensor ..... maybe a dollar all up.... Measure the heat sink temp on the low side switcher... and it will cut in  ( 38C) and out.... depending on feedback it can be bang bang, or gradient.

Yes you can think of it as a D class low side and a hard switching high side. Every half cycle, we turn on an alternate set of high side full on for 100% duty, and low side  "D" class for the waveform.... ie amplitude modulation by pulse width for the sine wave.... probably looks visually not too unlike an  FM modulated signal come to think of it.........well sort off......... We can also change the frequency of the low side if necessary ( power levels increase) , as well as the pwm.

..................oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline lighthunter

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Re: guess who bought a power jack inverter
« Reply #209 on: April 16, 2015, 07:02:56 pm »
Thanks for clarifying low side winding drive ckt!  :)

I cant believe how well setup is working at this point. No issues at all.
It collected 117Kwh in 16 days with fixed panel 2kw-2.2kw panel (200w
Panel added part way thru time period. More than twice the pwr i was getting.
Last year. Keeps up with all the water htr demand plus a few other small loads.

I see so many on other forums dying to have a setup that will run off grid if needed.
The cost is so high and ao few options with equipment. This setup with a PJ a GTI and few.
Batteries is all anyone could ask for! Thanks Oz for your direction in this setup.

By the way, it appears the pj watt-hr meter runs backwards. My meter now reads 6 digits and i knowthats not correct.... not important i guess. Wondered if anyone else had that experience in this config. 
Best regards, Lighthunter
Health Warning: May contain traces of nut!
LH