Author Topic: My 12kW powerjack build - Ozinverter Inspiration!  (Read 14393 times)

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Offline oztules

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Re: My 12kW powerjack build - Ozinverter Inspiration!
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2018, 11:00:10 pm »
Interesting question..... and as usual, my ideas are my ideas.
SOA is particularly useful for the linear region in my humble opinion, but for pwm, there is more to it, and less to do with the SOA graphs, and a whole heap more with wave shape, gate source voltage to achieve saturation, and how fast we can do that and discharge the gate, and most importantly  if your going for speed..... the rate of change of the gate, versus the on time and off time.

So can it handle the pulse... and what is the max pulse current we can stand.... for the 4008 is is a few hudred for the pulses, and 600 or more for the surge.... so  we have that times 4.... a big number.... happy.
Now the SOA spends a lot of time looking at drain source voltage to calculate the power through the device, considering RDS on, and current through the device.... but when the fets are on, the Vds is zero, and the Rds on is also insignificant really, so provided I stay uder the Vds and Vgs, I take little notice of any other spec..... coz I'm evil basically.

What is more important I have found, is that the wave form first, the switching frequency second. With Rds on of .007R, resistance losses are pretty low...... but if your rise time is slow, your in real trouble, because in the linear region losses are basically  of "A" class amplifier proportions.... so we want to get turned on seriously fast, and off the same.... Thats why I use diodes across the gate resistors.... faster turn off ( providing the impedance of the driver is low of course).... and we want the turn on/off transitions to be a low proportion of the time, as on is cool, off is cool, so we want to be in either of those states.

So we need to turn on fast, and the wave form needs to rise with almost no X slope, only Y... so it appears instant turn on on the scope. In reality, there is still a turn on time, but compared to the on time ( we are switching slow, so use a slow scope trace), the wave looks straight up, flat across the top, and straight down again. As we increase the frequency, I have always found the rising slope is taking proportionally more of our operating time, so we are spending proportionally more time in the linear region, and our heating losses in the die go up astronomically.

So if we turn on the fet and leave it on with say 12v Vgs, and 40 amps, the thing is the same as a .007R piece of wire, once we start  pulsing it, provided we can keep the thing off or on only, it will cool further, the moment we start to spend any time in the liner region, we get hot......

So to keep within operating specs, and knowing I don't know what I'm doing, I ere on the side of caution, and switch slowly if I get the chance, that way I am assured of ignoring most of my foibles in the design and layout..... and things go pretty well.

If I tried to design for say 20khz, my circuits and layouts would need to be much more professional to get the same thermal result, and as I'm a hack, thats not going to eventuate.

So I build what works for me. Your welcome to  change the freq. The Arduino can switch at any frequency if you read the specs, and use the internal timers........20khz and over is easily achieved apparently, I just have not done it, but plenty have.  Poida on the back shed has used a Nano for the entire 8010 spwm, and had no difficulty with speed at all.

So beware, going high has it's pitfalls, and the fets run cool mostly..... but only if you pay full attention to the wave form.... or put simply and succinctly... every transition from on to off and vice versa will add heat somehow... less the better..... and most of the time there will be no pulse until the battery is charged, and needs regulating, the rest of the time it is hard on.

The totem is actually the opto, it is a 2 amp driver as well as the opto. You will need this isolation, and an isolated driver for a normal HF grid tie. A little transformer is just fine, as are the 2 dollar plug packs things on Ebay. They take 400VDC fine, or the AC from the inverter etc etc. On the board shown, the 180R gets lifted and 18vDC+ goes to it, and the pin 5 takes the - of the isolated supply. The opto needs at least 16v to run. (and <30v) Aerosharp and other galvanically isolated inverters don;t need the isolated pwr supply.


........oztules
ps electronic engineers the world over will be tearing their hair out if they read this.
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline influence

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Re: My 12kW powerjack build - Ozinverter Inspiration!
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2018, 11:27:57 pm »
If it hasnt been said already genius is in the simplification of phenomena....less is definitely more. Unfortunately most engineers think "if less is more then imagine how much more, more is" LOL

Mate the hat is off, you would outperform most electrical engineers out there. Your art seems to have come empirically and also I notice you apply a lot of first principles knowledge. I guess Im the same way. I have had to deprogram all the engineering "learning" at uni to think empirically. I guess some habits die hard like reading datasheets and using SOA graphs... lol

I like your approach to PWM and SOA. I think its logical and pragmatic.

In terms of isolation perhaps an IGBT would be a better candidate. I got plenty of them too out of the the GTIs....
And generally they are logic level drive...

I should try it out....


Offline oztules

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Re: My 12kW powerjack build - Ozinverter Inspiration!
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2018, 11:42:26 pm »
I meant to comment on the charger.

Those transformers are wound specifically to make terrible battery chargers, as they are wound with as little leakage as possible in order for them to function as inverter transformers.... But you have magically gotten over that problem by going under voltage, and using a booster with current limit and voltage limit.... in that configuration, the things against the transformers as charger, actually work in your favour, not against... I quite like it.

I am now using inverter welders that you can get off ebay for $100 and free shipping. They can have controlled current up to 200 amps apparently, I have not taken them over about 60 amps. For 24v systems, any one will do, for 48v I have had to add a single turn to the secondary on two of them,  but the latest two I got do not need any tweaking, and run 50 amps out of the box... probably more, but the battery was pretty full when I tested them out. Duty cycle at 80 amps and less is 100%... darn amazing value. Simple push pull topology if you blow them up ( I have when fiddling inside them while they were on... seem easy to fix too, and use simple tl494 and sg3205 chips... dirt simple).... wait until you see the tiny simple transformers they use... just a little torroid  ring     less than 80mm I reckon

7826-0
Keep at it, plenty of fun to go yet.



.........oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline influence

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Re: My 12kW powerjack build - Ozinverter Inspiration!
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2018, 03:02:02 am »
Interesting... what was the model/brand/style you got that worked with 48v?
I've got to build a charger for a mate...would love to try out the igbt welder version as well...

Offline oztules

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Re: My 12kW powerjack build - Ozinverter Inspiration!
« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2018, 04:15:43 am »
I bought 2 of these for $198 inc shipping, they are a few bucks more now wow...
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ARC-250Amp-Stick-Welder-DC-Inverter-MMA-Welding-Machine-IGBT-Portable-10A-Plug/361795279692?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

looks like this
7828-0

specs are suspect but here they are
7830-1

I just hooked it up weeks and weeks ago, and it just worked out of the box, but those specs are very odd... so hang about for a day while I test them properly... 50v open circuit???

The ones that were 60v open, needed an extra wind for the secondary, or they only ran 5 amps.... and this claims 50v.. but it worked hard???

As I only did a just to see if it worked thing, I need to do it again and be a bit more methodical before I let you blow your dough, but my very best recollections are it worked perfectly out of the box... so I will fiddle with it tomorrow or later tonight... just remembered Im off to an outer island tomorrow for the Reverse osmosis unit. Time to fire it back up, summer is coming... so tonight it is.


.........oztules

Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline influence

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Offline oztules

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Re: My 12kW powerjack build - Ozinverter Inspiration!
« Reply #51 on: October 10, 2018, 04:55:32 am »
Ok went out and pulled it out of it's case ( yes it comes in a case as well )
Don't laugh at the poor camera work... the flash won't work, so it exposed for a long time, and I am not stable apparently... but it is what it is... woeful

Ok first this is it
7832-0

and the camera work  all goes down hill after this.

Here it is at idle at about 49v on the batts. I had to pull a few kw on a heater to get it down from the float, but it does about 10-11amps at minimum
7834-1

So we are on the 40 amp scale, and turning up the knob we go overload, so more than 40 amps... we get a second opinion, one on the 400amp scale, one on the forty amp scale... and it looks like this... 47amps on the 400 scale, and O/L on the 40 amp scale... so they agree about the magnitude anyway.

7836-2

and after a good number of minutes, we turned it back down. The air from it was still cold a good sign...



7838-3

Open circuit was 90v not 50v as in the blurb, which explains why this this goes hard out of the box. I didn't turn it all the way up, I saw 58amps, but it jumps around a bit at different settings, so I did not want a hundred amps turning up out of no where, as the batts are full anyway.

So does it charge... yep, does it do it for long... most likely, the two I modified, I current limited to 30 amps, and they have run over winter  at a place in "town" and I use the term loosley, a pub and a few shops....and a post office may not quite make it to town status to the rest of you folks.

I do have to run these hard soon, as they will go out to an outer island... one to use, one spare... cheap chargers... and you can weld if your genny can handle it. The inverter will... but it is not portable.

So thats it, until I get  a bit more time to do a proper test regime... they are ridiculous cheap for what they can do compared to a real 48v charger for a hundred bucks.

The other two I simply changed the front knobs resistance range to limit the current to something fair, as I did not know how well they would perform, but to date after about 6 months, they have been exemplary really. Did all that was asked of them. They ran for full days apparently some times, so impressive to me.


............oztules



Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline oztules

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Re: My 12kW powerjack build - Ozinverter Inspiration!
« Reply #52 on: October 10, 2018, 05:06:58 am »
Thanks for the link, could only buy one at a time every 10 days.... looks like a scam, but I will give it a go, paypal seems to sort this stuff out very well, interested to see how they do the shell game this time... look like fun.

I do notice that the reviews seem very positive on this mishto unit. It is incredibly small for 250 amps wonder what turns up ;D

.........oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline influence

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Re: My 12kW powerjack build - Ozinverter Inspiration!
« Reply #53 on: October 10, 2018, 05:15:23 am »
That is magnificent....I cant believe it can just work out of the box.... ;D

Offline oztules

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Re: My 12kW powerjack build - Ozinverter Inspiration!
« Reply #54 on: October 10, 2018, 05:22:50 am »
Yes I was taken aback.... but there it is. If you really want one, I would get the one from bit deals first... I don't know what will come from the 26 dollar one, but my curiosity always gets me into trouble of some sort... wonder what they will send if anything.....

............oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline influence

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Re: My 12kW powerjack build - Ozinverter Inspiration!
« Reply #55 on: October 10, 2018, 04:54:42 pm »
Yeah I know....the seller looks sus...zero feedback...oh well that is what paypal is good for...

Offline oztules

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Re: My 12kW powerjack build - Ozinverter Inspiration!
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2018, 02:47:49 am »
Went to the outer island today, and took the welder with me.Used it on a 3kw capacitor drive generator.

Very odd. Barely charged the batteries..... pulled the revs up, and unit ran at 300vac, and then we got 25 amps charging????

So I suspect that the waveform from this style of alternator is a bit skinny in the sine wave or something, as the mains made the welder go hard as.....

Will try an extra turn on the secondary, and see how that changes it... very strange. Wish I had the scope out there with me.

.......oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline Pete

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Re: My 12kW powerjack build - Ozinverter Inspiration!
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2018, 04:44:23 pm »
Like you say Oz the specs for that welder sound pretty flaky.
I have never seen a welder that can go up to 250 amps that plugs into a 10 amp outlet.
Those generators with capacitors in them are a probably pretty noisy, I have rewound quite a few and also changed the caps in a few as well. Unfortunately I never did put a scope on them to check out just how sinusoidal the waveform was. I would suspect plenty of noise on the output and also that the laminations were not really the right shape to give a nice sinewave. They are cheap after all, just like the welder.
Sounds like a great way to charge batteries though, as long as there is mains or a good generator about.
Nice bit of lateral thinking there.
I have used old transformer welders with a giant rectifier block and a 2kw dimmer on them to charge batteries. Bit heavy though.
cheers may the ocean be flat when you are travelling to the outer islands
Pete

Offline oztules

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Re: My 12kW powerjack build - Ozinverter Inspiration!
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2018, 03:42:45 am »
Yep, I have rewound a few of those gennies, done diodes, and replaced caps. tough a rough and ready, but work 20 years later too.

They rely on resonance between the exciter field and the capacitor, to direct flux into the rotor where it gets rectified.... so I guess plenty of places for the welder to create poor power factor in there. There is no boost stage , just the pwm stage... so the harmonic distortion, and crest problems must be pretty sad.

It is also a absolute no no to use caps in series with the grid tie inverters to stop the hunting if your using these gennies, as the caps in the input stage of the GTI effect the exciter field immensely, and the voltage will go out of control... so a fair chance a AVR style genny would drive it perfectly well.

I retested it on the mains, and saw over 56amps  easily.... think about that 56 amps@54v or over 3kw It had flashes much higher than that, but the pwm chip pulled it back fairly quickly. Looking at the tranny ( or lack thereof) I would guess that 250 amps would dragit back to 18v or so... so 250*18=4500 watts..... possible perhaps for 20-30 seconds before the AC 16a breaker would go at 150% duty cycle ( for the breaker).... (curve depending.)

Anyway, the ones I did at the start of the year are driven by a 13hp honda, and have done 30 amps each for 12 hour runs during the winter.... so they do work on cap gennies, but remember I added a turn on the secondary on those ones.. as I will have to do here too.

If I get a chance to drive them with a AVR unit, before I mod them I will let you know the result. Sure work on mains though.


..........oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline oztules

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Re: My 12kW powerjack build - Ozinverter Inspiration!
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2018, 04:39:03 am »
Disappointing today. Wound another turn on the secondary, and it did not behave like the previous units... the secondary voltage remained about the same. The other units increased from 60v to near 100 volts.... so there is other circuitry causing me problems on genny power. On mains the current went up into the stratosphere... in excess of 70 amps... wherein, I quickly let it back off... there was plenty of pot to go.

The other units simply run full bore until the arc was struck, then backed off according to the pot in current terms only.... so a current controlled unit.
These ones are voltage and current regulated via some cunning algorithm.... not so easy to get what I want so easily... we have to fight against the programmer that did this.

So these ones behave totally differently to the two I originally changed. They were both different, but this is different again. There is no linear current increase with turning the pot.... it holds back at 10 amps until about half a turn then goes into the 60-70 range... and i don;t know whats past there... I sooked out.

The earlier ones were basically controllable linear.... more research needed to find out how these ones are interfering  with the output according to some algorithm they felt it needed.... dammit.

So on mains sort of usable, on genny not so much at the moment..... will have to check into this more thoroughly I guess.
The other ones were through hole units, so easier to work with, these ones are primarily surface mount thingies.... so will take me much longer to familiarize with .... don't like surface mount tiny tiny things.... it is certainly much more than a waveform problem.


.....oztules


Flinders Island...... Australia