Author Topic: Electric Fence Zapper  (Read 116474 times)

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Offline oztules

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Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #90 on: April 21, 2013, 04:19:57 am »
Well.....
This is right up your alley... lots of calcs to do (I just wind and find out the hard way...)

It comes down to how much winding window you have, and how much power your after.
Parallel or series..... you will have two independent windings of say 9t on the primary, you can series them to 18 turns, or parallel them for 9 thicker turn equivalent

If you want to experiment, make it so you can series or parallel and see the difference.... for power your after parallel to keep the resistance/impedance down to minimal.
For milder power, and happier triacs, you can series them, and lower the output, and increase the wave width... all choices for you.

I suspect that for your bobbin, 9T 2 in hand is 2 layers, not 1 like mine. If so, your eating into your window for the secondary, and remember there is probably 7 or 8 layers of transformer paper to jam in there as well.

In your case , I'd use only one layer of as big as i can get for the bobbin, and if that means only 1 in hand so be it. The secondary takes a fair bit of room.. mostly because it is neat and paper insulated between layers. Thickish transformer paper will mean you don't get to use the valley between wire turns, as the paper will keep it all at paper layer level, so window gets away.

Not ever having been bothered with calculating my doom, I just wind it and suffer.... then have enough information to fix it up if necessary.... I am not even remotely the best person to ask for this part I suspect.



...................oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline David HK

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Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #91 on: April 21, 2013, 06:19:09 am »
Oztules,

Thank you for the last two notes. A couple of points arising. I am hoping to make the 'machine' as a replica to the hand drawn sketch shown early in this thread, then there is a yard stick to work on.

The item that has confused me in the last two notes is the reference to different types of bifilar coil windings. I understand there are four, but I cannot find one single sketch on Google that illustrates them. As a last resort I have made up the following sketches on AutoCAD showing what I "think" they are. Perhaps you could take a look and let me know what my score is.



Dave

Offline oztules

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Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #92 on: April 21, 2013, 09:14:39 am »
"I am hoping to make the 'machine' as a replica to the hand drawn sketch shown early in this thread, then there is a yard stick to work on."

Bets of luck with that, I have made many, but no two were the same. Every transformer I got hold of had different plate numbers or physical sizes, and so different character. You will have to fiddle with the divider network for the trigger and the oscillator for every oscillator transformer/transistor combination, and drive voltage..... it is very very flexible, and by controlling both those dividers, we can get them the same.... but the power transformer will give it it's ultimate grunt quotient... for the same voltage and capacitance.


Now pictures of coils.

No 1.
Will give you no output emf, as cancellation is complete.... look at it carefully and follow the emf of a single half cycle ( can treat it is a battery perhaps for this purpose, as it has sign and potential at any frozen point in time).

 Note that they have identical emf in the same sign, so you have effectively added one .........say 12v battery .....in series with another 12v battery, but have joined the two positives together, and have the wires going to the two separate negatives..... full cancellation.... 0v

No2. Is parallel two in hand, and will result in say 2 12volt batteries in parallel, positives joined and negatives joined... twice the currrent at the same 12v potential. This is how I wind mine... gives twice the current handling, at 1/2 the resistance/impedance.

No3 and 4 I'm not sure how to interpret ... nor has anything to do with bifilar as I know it........... as the windings have to be identical as they are two in hand.... cant counter wind.... they are identical, thats why we do it .... they share the same magnetic and resistive events at identical times in the sine/pulse wave at all points along the wire. The resistance of both coils is the same at all times at all points along the winding.

The best thing about bifilar is the identicalness of the windings. Remember, you will get some phase changes in resistive inductors, so you want the resistance to see the same things at the same times if in parallel etc...... we can use  this phase relationship in single phase induction motors.

The start fields and run fields are two different thickness windings, and we get some phase alteration from this alone, as well as the physical magnetic position, and the added capacitors.....the caps and different thickness wires all add to give the starting torque to the rotating fields that the rotor sees............ so if were to counter wind, we would need to wind one first then the other in the other direction.... by necessity, it will use a longer coil path for the second winding..... this will experience different resistance, and then different phase character ( be it ever so small).......

We could say wind them side by side to keep the coil path the same length, but we lose coupling, and get a leaky transformer ( more magnetic leakage, less energy can be transferred, as the driving field is "further away" from the driven coil, so the magnetic flux is less than ideal) If we wanted to get tight flux low leakage, we would wind half the primary, then the secondary, then the other half of the primary on the outside... then the secondary sees flux from the outside and the inside, and sees a stronger changing field for the same magnetizing current. Particularly useful for pulse width modulation transformers where it is important to keep the leakage down to a minimum.

If you unwind a computer power supply power transformer, you will find this coil structure.... getting side tracked now..... oh well...

Series connection of bifilar windings can  be seen in toroidal transformers that you can buy, and you can either parallel or series the secondaries for twice the Y voltage, at X current, or parallel for twice the X current  for the same Y voltage.

You can see that to put the secondaries in parallel, we need the coils to be identical, or they will work against each other where they differ slightly.

So series connection is still your  No1 diagram, but join one of the starts and an end together with a jumper wire... the remaining two "empty" wires left over will be a start and an end...... and be at  twice the potential of a single winding/coil ( and twice the resistance/impedance).

So, we don't need to counter wind, we just use a jumper from the end of one coil  to the start of the second... which effectively gives us counter wound, but with two identical in every way...  coils.


Did that help, or just muddy things up.




......oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline David HK

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Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #93 on: April 21, 2013, 04:39:41 pm »
Morning Oztules,

I now have tea and biscuits and the birds outside are singing their hearts out for another grey start to the day.

Thanks for clarifying the situation on coil windings above. If counter windings have no bearing on your circuits they can stay out of the picture lest readers become confused. I have however updated the first two sketches and have repeated them below.

I think my earlier use of the word "replica" was wrong and I should have used the phrase "similar materials and design concept to the hand drawn circuit earlier in the thread". Sunday saw some progress in the form of a cradle to hold the capacitor and the first of six mounting studs for the PCB. Today (Monday) I may be able to get the secondary wound on the ETD 49.



Dave

Offline David HK

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Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #94 on: April 22, 2013, 01:18:02 am »
Oztules,

Main transformer – secondary winding – advance thinking.

I note the need for transformer paper between each pass over the bobbin. You mention up-turning the sides by 3/16” (~ 5 mm) for good insulation to prevent arcing.

I have transformer paper in two different thicknesses – 0.015 and  0.03 mm - and plan to cut long lengths to cover the bobbin layer and up-turn each side – cut to length as the layers progress.

I was thinking of using a vice  (or experimenting with the wife’s iron) to  press the up-turn so that it produces a nice right angle between the layer and the bobbin wall. However, I can see a problem - as this curves around the bobbin the small up-turn will want to crumple and deform owing to the curvature. My first solution would be to cut nicks into the curving region to remove the stress. Is this what you do, or, do you just wind on regardless of paper deformity?

Illustration attached.



Dave


Offline oztules

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Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #95 on: April 22, 2013, 03:40:05 am »
Dave


I don't recall the turning up part, I would expect i said to have 5mm of paper beyond the end of the winding...

So if you have 30mm of copper in a neat layer, then you need a 40 mm bobbin, so that the paper is 40mm wide, the copper 30mm wide, and you have your 5mm of vacant space at each end of the winding. That way the spark would have to jump out the end then back in to snag the next coil... which won't happen.

Turning it up just makes a simple job more difficult, and the nicks would circumvent the good work ... so nothing gained.


.......oztules

edit....... thinking about it, it would do no harm to cut the paper 10mm too wide for the bobbin space, and  then fold up the 5mm ends back onto the paper itself... maybe even iron them flat so they hold and behave as a normal piece of paper with a "seam" on each end

... that way you make a delineation .03mm high for the wire of the next level to wind to... not too shabby, and will give yet another barrier to the sparks trying to get out the end... interesting...
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline David HK

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Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #96 on: April 22, 2013, 07:21:11 pm »
Oztules,

Following up on your last note I have resorted to a combination drawing to try and understand if I have got your comments right

Early in this subject thread
The main transformer is a different story.  High voltage, and very high currents exist here, and each layer needs to be carefully wound, with transformer paper exceeding the layer width by about 5mm each side. This will make it very hard for the arcing which would occur instantly without this protection. (this is where I picked up the paper being the bobbin width plus a 5 mm turn-up each side).

Drawing 1
So if you have 30mm of copper in a neat layer, then you need a 40 mm bobbin, so that the paper is 40mm wide, the copper 30mm wide, and you have your 5mm of vacant space at each end of the winding. That way the spark would have to jump out the end then back in to snag the next coil... which won't happen. (might work on a machine wound coil with an ‘auto traveller laying the wire’, and hand wound large diameter wires. Small diameter wires might ‘fall off the edge’.)

Drawing 2
thinking about it, it would do no harm to cut the paper 10mm too wide for the bobbin space, and  then fold up the 5mm ends back onto the paper itself... maybe even iron them flat so they hold and behave as a normal piece of paper with a "seam" on each end

... that way you make a delineation .03mm high for the wire of the next level to wind to...

The world ‘end’ may be the understanding problem since most of the above comments relate to width.

I am not sure if I am still confused.

Dave

Offline rossw

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Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #97 on: April 22, 2013, 08:18:02 pm »
From what I understand of Oztules description you'd start with a piece of paper 50mm wide.
Fold 5mm in from one side, and 5mm in from the other side, and iron flat.

You now have a piece that is 50-5-5 = 40mm overall that will fit in your 40mm wide bobbin,
and a coil-winding-space of 40-5-5 = 30mm inside the indentation to wind your coil in.

Ending up with 30mm wide coil, with 40mm (ID) bobbin, and 5mm clear space either end of your coil.

(But I could be wrong!)

Offline oztules

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Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #98 on: April 22, 2013, 08:27:11 pm »
Ross might be wrong, but he's not.
Thats exactly as I had hoped it would be interpreted.

.................oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline David HK

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Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #99 on: April 22, 2013, 09:38:00 pm »
Please send me an Australian thinking cap.

I think I have got it right this time, So in fact the 'lip' of the folded over piece of paper indicates the extremity width of coil wire?

This is interesting because an air gap of 5mm each side of the winding plus the plastic thickness of the bobbin (2.2mm) = 7.7mm puts the coil some distance from the laminates surrounding it.

Dave


Offline oztules

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Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #100 on: April 23, 2013, 04:46:56 am »
"I think I have got it right this time, So in fact the 'lip' of the folded over piece of paper indicates the extremity width of coil wire?"

Yes you seem to have it right this time.

"This is interesting because an air gap of 5mm each side of the winding plus the plastic thickness of the bobbin (2.2mm) = 7.7mm puts the coil some distance from the laminates surrounding it"
All true, but the laminations it is farthest from do not cause problems for us. The core it is wound around is what counts, the rest of the transformer laminates are there just for a decent path for the flux to travel around the place.  Normally they need to be propionate to the center leg, but their proximity is of no importance in real terms... as the flux travels through the laminates very very well, it is getting it into the laminates in the first place thats critical, and that calls for tight coupling.


In this particular case, it is going to be so super saturated as to make no difference if the rest of the transformer did not exist, and just had the core laminates. It would probably work just as well... possibly better....


Lets be clear about this, I am NOT an engineer or even a hopeful offsider, I just play with this stuff when I need to. Someone else with better understanding is most welcome to correct me on any point........................... I am the village idiot after all... ( my wife says so.... so it must be true....)



.....................oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline rossw

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Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #101 on: April 23, 2013, 05:03:08 am »
I had an ancient old electric fence energizer when I was a kid... the coil was a huge lump of copper all bound and dipped in some sort of goop...

The interesting thing is, it was wound on a single, laminated core - about 4" long x 3/4" square.

It worked fine, without all the extra "stuff" around it.

Offline David HK

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Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #102 on: April 23, 2013, 06:01:30 am »
Okay so far so good.

Tomorrow all the RS Components stuff arrives which means I can finish off the position for various spade fittings on the PCB.

I have the transformer paper and varnish and the old transformer has had its copper coils removed, ditto for the veneer of varnish around the bobbin surface.

Back to the main transformer - I intend to go for the 1.8mm wire and try for 9 turns at 2-in-hand and see what I can get on in the 51mm width. Taken across the width of the bobbin it will be somewhere between 9 and 14 turns.

I am in a quandry about the secondary winding which is noted down as 200 turns of 1mm.  The bobbin is 51mm wide and I would like to try the concept of a 30mm wide winding as has been illustrated today. However, that does not mean 30 wires per layer because the enamel thickness will reduce it to say ~ 29.

The bobbin wall is 14.5mm high so subtract the primary thickness and according to a rough order of calculation using 1mm + paper, 1mm + paper etc on Excel and it should be possible to obtain 8 secondary layers leaving 4.7mm at the top for coverings. Something like that. Taking the rough arithmetic further 29 wires per layer, times 8 layers, suggests 232 turns.

On the primary winding I am thinking of no connector tabs at all on the transformer and instead just take the 1.8mm wires direct to the PCB and solder on, or, solder onto a female tab connector.

Any views or suggestions?

I know you're not an engineer, but you are certainly a very clever amateur who should be an engineer. As for me its too late in life to start again, I just enjoy the days with something interesting to do.

Nearly there, but still a lot of fiddly work to do.

Dave


Offline Norm

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Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #103 on: April 24, 2013, 10:53:56 am »
Mostly what I'm thinking is pidgeons and pidgeon pie  LOL
Norm.

Offline David HK

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Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #104 on: May 02, 2013, 10:40:20 pm »
It works! Yes, it really does work. Thanks Oztules, another one of those things to be studied and done in a lifetime.

I will confess to having one of the primary start windings around the wrong way at first, but when I realised the mistake and corrected it all went well. I also now understand what Oztules means by 'playing around with this circuit'. Once the various coil turns, input voltages, and expected output voltages are set up into an MS Excel worksheet all sorts of voltage permutations and coil windings are possible. The same goes for the capacitors. Taken further still, even the ohmic resistance of fence wire is important when designing a system.

Enjoy the Heath Robinson photographs for now. I will post again later with a more detailed set of notes regarding the construction arrangements.

David in HK