Anotherpower.com Forum
Off Grid Living / Camping => Off Grid Living / Alternative Housing => Gardening => Topic started by: WooferHound on March 28, 2012, 08:16:37 pm
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I'm tilling my vegetable garden by hand, with a shovel. This is the 7th year that I've done this, next year I'll be borrowing a coworkers rototiller. The dirt is not great for growing in because it is dense and like clay. I have been trying to improve the dirt by digging in organic materials like peat moss, shredded hardwood, pine bark, humus and compost. It doesn't seem to be improving much, it's still sticky and will crack when it dries out too much.
What would help out the soil and make it more suitable for growing vegetables in ?
I have a fairly large veggie garden so it takes a lot of stuff added to make a difference in the soil. It is 3 feet wide and 80 feet long, divided into 4 sections.
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Know anyone with a hobby sized farm?
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People talk about adding sand to the dirt but I'm not sure that is the correct Fix for my problem ?
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Woof I don't know how in the world you move so much dirt with a shovel. I'd be tired first scoop and not to mention have blisters...
Anyway, I'd get the tiller for sure NOW. We have really high clay soil here and we had to till in most of the material you listed as well as sand TWICE to get a nice lawn. We tried a disk and several passes with tractor a few times throughout a few years with no success. The tiller made the difference. We used a Troybuilt Horse model. They are sweet.
Good luck!
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You might consider getting more seriously into composting. See how many of the neighborhood houses you can collect grass clippings and fall leaves from and pile 'em all up, water it some and turn it from time to time. In a couple years you should have a nice big pile of compost to till into that soil.
I throw fall leaves on the garden beds every fall before it snows and let them rot out there all winter before tilling them in too. That clay soil is tough to get right. I don't know if sand is a good amendment or not. Someone told me that sand+clay equals concrete once so there are different opinions on whether you want to add it to clay soil or not.
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Gypsum is frequently used to "sweeten" and break up clay. Not sure about your way, but sure was here.
Our place was "high-heeled-boots" material. Walk 10 paces, and you'd have 4" platforms.
Lots of organic material - whatever you can get - and dug into the clay, along with gypsum, and we have a few patches of ground now that are aproaching useful. It's not a quick process though. :(
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It can be done as quickly as you can afford ;)
Here we are on acid sand (ph4.5) (where the house is), quite coarse. I have a 10 yard tip truck, a 955l cat loader and 400 acres and am close to the beach.
In a 12m x 12m area I put about 30 meters of peat (from a different part of the property), and about 4 utes (pickup truck) of seaweed. Rotovated it all together and then built the greenhouse / garden arrangement over it. It grew like stink from the get go. Outside this area is pretty poor and just grows kikiyu grass.
The sand helps keep the peat/clay from clumping, as does the seaweed...... then a neighbour (who thought I needed some exercise )dropped off a couple of tons of sheep manure.... still digging that in bit by bit.... :-[ ( cant get the tractor in now)
I cost me only diesel (and not much of it) to make a very productive veggie garden from lousy acid sand. Your situation no doubt is different, but a few truck loads of decent soil, and ignore the original material will make it come to life instantly..... otherwise it is a long process of building up the organics I'm afraid.
Clay is very mineral intensive, and a good material to work with..... if you don't have too much. ;D
I'm just lucky I have all kinds of soils across the property, and the tools to move it.
................oztules
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Raised Beds
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Lots of very course sand and organic material.
I'm fortunate to be on river loam but only 200mm of it
This sits on fine river sand and clay/silt mix - about 1m of this
This sits on 6km of shingle
Which sits on a faultline :'(
Over 8 years I've built this up using everything organic I could find - kitchen waste, trimmings and prunings, weeds, llama poo and the contents of the cat dirt boxes (composted bark). Come winter my pile 2m high and 4m across will get dug into 3 beds 5m by 20m each :)
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About like Tom says just where you are going to have plants......
My Uncle used to just spade where he was going to plant
something ....long rows with grass in between, wide enough to
to run the lawnmower .....hardly any weeding.
.....Then there is the thing of multi-tasking like 1 underground vegetable
together with 1 above ground.....less space less digging......also the
knowledge of knowing what plants will keep certain bugs away from
the plants that attract certain bugs.
I don't do any of this stuff but I've know a lot of people that have.....
One guy (Bob)I knew claimed that earthworms were a must was against rototillers
......kills a lot of earthworms ....he only used a spade or plow....as proof he pointed
to his garden and his neighbors almost next to his, neighbor used a roto-tiller.....
Bob's was 50% better than the neighbor's....made a believer out of me !
Norm.
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Also have very heavy/clay soil Woof, and I think I have tried all the suggestions, except seaweed.
They all helped. The one thing not mentioned, that I noticed, was PH. It's very alkaline here, and
choosing amendments that helped bring down the PH helped a lot. Things like pine needles, leaves off
the oak trees etc. The good thing about the soil, being high in minerals, is that when you get it to
the usable state, the veggies all have awesome flavour.
Good luck with it.
Almost forgot, I have a lot of cast iron filings developed in the shop, I clean them up with a magnet,
and spread them around lightly. Not sure about the garden, but the trees really like it, and I seem to
get more earthworms.
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Oh, horsesh*t!
I have a very clay soil here too. I just fenced in 80' by 80' at my place here and planted some fruit trees. My last place was just down the road and had the same soil, perhaps even worse, and this is what worked for me.
Start with some raised beds. You don't have to put formal edges (boards or whatever) just pile some soil at least a foot deep. Till the soil beneath beforhand as well as you can. Add some coarse oyster shell. Since it's spring, have fun planting some stuff in it for this year.
In the fall, cover the bed with 6-8" of horse manure. Do a cover crop overwinter if in a mild climate. I use fava beans. The roots help add humus to the soil and add nitrogen. In early spring, weed whack the fava beans, add more horse manure on top and till in.
Horse maure has been the bomb for me. Adds lots of humus and some nitrogen. The soil just soaks it up. You'd think if you kept adding manure your beds would get taller, but they don't. The soil just eats it up. After a couple of years of the above procedure I no longer had to till. I plan on following the same routine here. Since you are established already, just do the manure and cover crop.
Jonathan
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I said it once,, lol.
I'll try it again, but explain better.
I would look for a small hobby farm, they generally are happy to give you some sh*t.
Seriously, a mix of different animals seems to work well, but I would stay away from any concentrated bird poo, like chicken pens etc.
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Wooferhound,
heavy clay soils are the hardest to amend to sustain good to excellent conditions. It will take 1-2 years but can be done. All the recommendations stated here work, but the more broken up organic materials you work into the soil at first the better! get as much leaves, pine needles,shredded paper, nitrogen, some (vegeatable) garbage, etc, and old hay, to rototill in at first, that combination all adds nutrients and decreases the clay ratio in the garden. the more the better. Remember the smaller the particles you add, the quicker it all breaks down--- and that is the point!!!! Once that's done water and cover with newspapers(3-4 sheets thick) this holds moisture in and cover that with as much hay (3-4" thick at least) as you can afford. This will add very many nutrients and be excellent weed control.
the next year just add deep layers of hay and plant your garden in that hay as you go along, you'll be surprised at the quantity of produce and size as you repeat the layers of hay on top of last years hay. there's no need to till the soil every year as you will be planting in rich soft soil enriched by the previpous year. It just keeps getting better each year by adding thick layers of hay on top, enriching the soil and keeping the weeds out of your garden. By the way the worms will love this and help you too!!!
It's a proven process,
Bill
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You guys are So Helpful ! !
I finished shovel tilling my garden today. It's funny that the younger beds are doing better than the oldest bed that I tilled yesterday. I'm well on my way to planting this Summers garden, but I will use Y'alls advice next year in March when planting season comes around again. Will try the cover crop over the winter this year too.
Will respond more later, but I am Used Up for the day.
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LOL I have the same clay soil here in SC after about two inches of top soil it's a red basketball court.....you bounce a basketball on this stuff you would here it "ping" just like on a gym floor.
Woofer, I first broke my area up then added leaves from the woods behind me....I tried to find leaves a few layers down which were beginning to blacken into compost.... now each year I keep adding stuff from a compost barrel behind the house to that clay.... its finally starting to turn around.
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Here is another trick I have used.
I went back into our woods to where there are a lot of leafy trees, where it is in constant shade and even on hot days feels cool and damp. I took a bunch of top soil from this area for a few of our raised flower bed, and any plants that are in pots.
I am guessing any place that is undisturbed and in leafy trees should do. if it has moss over it, it seems even better
You can just tell this stuff is good, its very black and fluffy.
I avoid needles, they are (in my area) high in acids. This might work great for the rose bushes and a few types of garden veggies, but never to good for what I generally plant.
I am not sure if you have any friends around with forests, or if it even would resemble what I have here, but for those who may, its been a rather good trick for me.
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Woof,
Compost, sand and peat moss.
Then compost chicken and cow dung, No horse dung.
Or you could but 45- 2 cu. ft. bags of garden soil like my wife did.
Slow and cheap or fast and foolish, your choice.
Oh, if you can get sand and rabbit pills you will have very good soil.
Kenneth
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"Rabbit Pills"? Meaning rabbit feed pellets?
It just compressed clover/alfalpha/something. The moisture content is kind of high.
Feed store sell it buy the ton in winter, then sales just stop (when depends on the weather).
Spring means a feed store may have a ton or 2 of it going moldy, and they love to give it away instead of pay the dumpster company to take it.
Just a thought.
Pelletized hydrated lime works wonders too.
Rabbit feed and pelletized hydrated lime is the only thing that made grass think about growing in a 25x10' part of my yard.
G-
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Sorry ghurd,
Rabbit $hit.
Very good fertilizer.
Kenneth
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Glad I'm not the only one. I had to take a pick axe to some spots to break through the hard pan. This is a first time garden here and it was logged years ago so the clay is compacted by heavy equipment and it's been driven on since. Did an area 16'x40' by hand with the pick axe and fork spade. Quite a work out but I'm trying to repair 25 years worth of not living so well, so, no pain no gain as they say. I can't add a whole lot of leaves etc because the soil is already acid/low ph. One thing the loggers did do was make some clearings and when they did, they left lots of black top soil in piles which is what I've been using for raised beds. Even on those, I have to crack the hard pan otherwise they'd be pools when it rained.
Cow peas are good for breaking up hard pans/clay pans and add tons of nitrogen and organic matter. If you use sand, make sure it's COARSE sand otherwise you're making adobe.
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So . . . I bought a PH meter and measured the soil in my veggie garden in a dozen places or so. I was wide-eyed to find the PH was reading between 4 and 6 and mainly around 5, this is much too Acid. Seems that I have been digging in so much organic material that it has pushed the PH level too low.
If I understand it right, I would dig in some Lime to help raise the PH up to a more usable number ?
My garden was growing very badly this year.
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If I understand it right, I would dig in some Lime to help raise the PH up to a more usable number ?
Yes, lime is an alkali and should help raise the pH of your soil.
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I use oyster shell to raise pH, works good for me. My water is acidic and so I mix some in my compost/manure mix, as well as when establishing new beds and so on.
On the topic of gardening, my 55 gallon compost tea maker that I made is awesome! It's like organic crack for plants. Everything in my garden is going crazy.
Oh, and peat moss and tree leaves and wood shavings are usually acidic, so maybe avoid those for soil builder. Horse manure and compost work great for me.
Jonathan