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Project Journals => Users Projects => Topic started by: dochubert on July 28, 2019, 06:22:13 pm

Title: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on July 28, 2019, 06:22:13 pm
Hello all,
I haven't posted for more than 2 years.  Really missed it and the great people here.  I hope to have some time for reading and posting now.  So, what happened?

About 2 years ago I took the plunge and moved away from southern cal.  No one will have trouble guessing the reasons for moving 1000 miles, from California city to rural Idaho.  When we first got to Idaho and were exploring the area, we stopped in a small gun store.  After telling of our move the store owner said, "Welcome to America!"  He was right and we were right to move.  Cali has gotten bad.

Anyway, if you've read my previous posts, you know I had 1 each 48v/15kw and 24v/8kw powerjacks.  I was powering half the house with a PJ and running a renegade Xantrex gridtie on the other half.  Since I still had my power company analog meter I could bank power when there was good sun and make the meter come out to just owing for 20 or 30 kwh for the month.  I was careful and had no problems for years.

In Idaho, of course, the house we bought had a digital meter with absolutely no option to get an analog meter instead.  My initial plan was to start with some gridtie to cut the bill, and develop gradually my battery banks and off grid stuff while getting used to the property and the area.  So put up a 2000w and a 2500w  old style Trace xr series gridtie inverters.  With the completion of the first gridtie, I ran it all the time with no problems.  With all-electric house the bill is high anyway.  Pretty much shrugged off the obvious point that that meter was reporting back every 15 mins.  Every once in awhile nothing much happened to be running and the gridtie didn't care, so was putting power into the grid.  And that pesky meter was ratting me out.  With just the 2000w unit running, I never likely put much back in, and it wasn't enough to set off their alarm bells down at the power co.
Then about two months later I blithely completed and turned on the 2500w unit also.  2 days later they were at the door. 

Leaving out tedious details, I agreed to apply for the permit and "get legal".  They weren't real happy that I didn't have and had no intention of getting a contractor to do it for me.  I do everything myself if at all possible, which usually means screwing things up a couple times before I learn and get it right.
Anyway, I had a year to complete the project. Time to ponder.(always liked that word!)  Came to my senses eventually a few months later and dropped the project after letting most of the year run out first.  Its going to be Off-grid all the way!  Well, mostly... 

I don't intend to try to power the larger loads like central air cond., electric dryer, the RV receptacle for when the kids are here with the 5th wheel plugged in, etc.  So the plan is to remove from the main breaker panel all loads to Not be powered by the grid, then leave the grid on for just those large loads when they are needed (not too often)  Everything else gets powered by powerjack thru subpanels not connected to grid.  Almost done with that rewiring.  Except for a couple of days we needed air conditioning, we've been off grid for most of 2 months now.
The gridtie system just sat (mostly ;)) while I worked on setting up the battery banks and got some solar charging to them.  I had blown up my 15kw pj in cali, but Lighthunter thankfully repaired it for me while I was moving to Idaho and it is the workhorse of my offgrid system now.

So I'm using the 2000w solar panel bank to power batteries instead of running its grid tie inverter.  Those panels are a ground mount so I ran a temporary line to the battery bank.  I sometimes run the other gridtie inverter on the powerjack "grid".  Usually only on low sun or high demand days, as don't really have any controls on it for that. 

In near future 20 320w panels get installed on the roof.  4 are for water heating and the other 16 will be charging my bank.  16 200ah sla. 4 banks of 4 for 48v.  Called a solar contractor to put the panels on the roof.  Don't yet know what that will cost but I'm too old to be doing that stuff on a roof.  Already have the panels.  Will know next week.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on July 28, 2019, 10:20:20 pm

Shortly after moving to Idaho, I bought my second 15kw powerjack. The plan is to have a tandem system that lets me run one subpanel or both subpanels from either of the 2 inverters.  A good system has at least one backup.  Found a bargain priced unit on ebay, ordered it and forgot about it.  It showed up one day, so stuck it in a corner.  I wasn't ready for it yet.

The gridtie adventure wasted a lot of my time for too long, but the upshot was that the new 15kw sat for about a year before I opened the box.  This one is the aluminum clamshell style like my older units.  I immediately then opened the case because certain things always need fixing on powerjacks before their first run. 
Both transformers (my older unit has 3) were loose in their mounts and had slid towards the mainboard.  The second fan was broken so had to replace it.  Couple other minor things plus the usual rewiring to get rid of the battery charging stuff, converting the second breaker/fuse to L2, rewiring the large connector for 240/120 output instead of battery charging input, and correcting the polarity of the output receptacle.
I thought I looked it over pretty good for other problems/damage but definitely missed something.  I fired it up and got instant smoke and even flames.  It blowed up real good!

After leaving it alone in disgust for a couple hours I checked and found that when the transformers slid, they apparently got up on the mainboard a bit.  Just enough to mash and short out the 10 pin connector to the control card.  No wonder it blew!  Could have saved the board if I'd been more thorough and seen that connector ahead of testing.

Poor eyesight for fine work, shaky hands, alergies that add watery eyes to the list, plus I was never that good at soldering tiny stuff in the first place all make the idea of me rebuilding that set of boards unlikely.  So looked and kept looking but no powerjack replacement boards have been available for sale for quite some time.  So ordered one of these:

[attach=1]

Its a supposed 10kw at 48 volts controlled by egs002/8010.  It was $149 USD on ebay.  It finally came and had some fun getting it to hook up properly with the powerjack transformers.  Had to also rewire the main fan into the aux fan ckt because the new board is made for a 12v fan.  I use independent fan controls anyway.  Then when it got turned on for the first time, the main fan smoked and died.  I think it got damaged in shipping too.  Well, now it has 2 new fans as well as a new main/control board.  I should resistor those fans down a bit.  They really crank!  Don't need THAT much airflow and loud too.  (Had em in a box of new fans I bought at a swap meet) Maybe I'll just rewire them in series and have them both come on half speed for either sensor.

I have run this hybrid for a few hours but little load.  I need to load it a bit and see if its got any guts.  I'll post a pic of it next time
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: WooferHound on July 29, 2019, 04:21:54 am
Double Extra Good
I really like the idea of having power when the Grid goes down.

And , Nice to see you around again.
I've been posting some of my projects but the guys around here have got lazy and don't post much.
Help me out some and keep your project updated.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on July 29, 2019, 10:51:47 am
Hi Wooferhound,
Thanks for the kind words.
It does me good to write up this stuff, and maybe someone will benefit from my mistakes.
I have several projects to write about, and will get to them soon.
I'm wondering if anyone here has tried out the 10kw board like I put in the powerjack case.
I'm looking for someone local to do electronic repairs so eventually might get the pj mainboard rebuilt.  Also have 2 old Trace 48v style gridties that need rebuilding. (Only 1 of 3 still working)  I don't know how to really look for someone like that.  Most shops are just parts changers and can't do anything they don't have a book or schematic for.  Wish I was able to tackle them myself but have to face that I can't.  Ah to be young again....
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on July 29, 2019, 04:42:52 pm
Hi Doc, good to read of your adventures. It has been quiet here as Woof says.
I did see the powerjack boards available on ebay a while back, they were pretty cheap, probably cheaper than paying someone to work on the dead ones.
I have repaired a few inverters of mine over the years, and sometimes when the main FETs blow they take out the drivers too. Then you put a stack of fets in and get a lovely light show as they all blow up together.
I found that it was good to put a 60 watt light bulb in series with the supply, so that if they drew too much current the bulb would limit the current and prevent an expensive smoke and light show.
I use a 12 volt system here, running a 5kw ( very optimistic) Powerjack. I am looking at using two inverters, one for small loads and the powerjack for larger loads. The powerjack chews up more standby current than I like.
I have also just built a small petrol/ alternator battery charger. The powerjack as a charger tends to do odd things, and also running a 6.8kva generator to power a battery charger is not too efficient. So now I have  an old subaru alternator, with the regulator deleted, a 200 amp three phase rectifier hooked up to it and a 150 watt wire wound pot to control the field current. And a small 5hp motor.
Haven't run it yet as the weather is fine enough for the solar at the moment. But as we live in the mountains we get a few days of fog and lots of rain at this time of year ( winter in Tasmania now).
Anyway it is good to read of your adventures, can you let us know what idle current the new inverter draws.
Cheers
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on July 29, 2019, 07:05:49 pm
Hi Pete,
Good to hear from you. 
The idle current is 0.75a at 240v.
Very steady and quiet.  If it loads up ok I'm good.
I'll be happy if it will do 5kw reliably when needed (not too often).  We're pretty economical with power.  We can waste power in summer with so much sun.  Winter will tell.
The 15kw pj is probably only good for 7-8kw. Plenty for us.  I've only had it up to 6 briefly and 4.5kw for an hour and a half (electric oven).  This hybrid is only intended as backup or could run split system.  Trying to make the system versatile.

Oh if you do see a pj board set at good price, I'd appreciate a shout.  The ads on ebay I've seen are always "out of stock" for 15kw/48v sets.  Haven't even seen the little mosfet subboards for 15kw.

Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on July 29, 2019, 07:49:59 pm
Hi Doc, this site seems to have some parts, I saw 15kw control boards but not sure if the mosfet boards are there.
https://www.powerjackpowerinverter.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=86_92

good luck with the project. I love not having a grid connection. I have only had one house grid connected in the last 40 years so don't really miss the power bills that much. Where we live now had grid power when we bought it but I deleted it and cut the power poles down pretty fast.
We get lots of strong winds on our mountain and blackouts were pretty regular. Solar is much more reliable.
Cheers
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on July 30, 2019, 10:36:46 pm
Thanks Pete,
They have the control board which is good.  No mosfet boards though.
I'll get the control for now and watch for the other.
Thanks again.
That control board is hooked up a bit different than the old style I have now.  Hope its not too different.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on July 31, 2019, 06:59:02 pm
The grid tie project

The first solar work I did after moving, was to start putting together a grid tied system.  I had two Trace xr2000 grid tie inverters, panels, and a vague idea of where I wanted things to be.  I tend to revise my designs several times during construction.
Cleaned up the inverters and installed them in the back shed, which is nearest to the panel array.  The panels are in groups of four.  Two sets of two panels attached side by side.  One set faces East, the other West.  Attached at the top and putting the panels at a 45 degree angle in an a-frame arrangement.  4 of these sets makes 2560w west and 2560w east.  Each west set of 2 panels in series is connected in parallel to its opposite east set.  Half as many wires to run back to inverter this way.  Only east or west producing at a given time.  Throughout the day east side declines as west builds, so never too much current for the wires.
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
I call this arrangement Stationary Tracking.  No moving parts and being ground mounted and heavy with 4 panels bolted together per set, windproof.  In San Diego I built and used for years an actual solar tracking system for my grid tie panels.  It worked well most of the time but frequently needed attention to maintain alignment and proper tracking.  San diego location had very little wind.  Here in Idaho we've had 60+ mph winds a few times just since we moved here.  I realized tracking would not be practical.  Panels have gotten cheaper and higher wattage so here we are!
The pics show that there are two groups of panels.  The nearer group is a set of 4 sets that makes 2560w either east or west for a 2500w inverter.  The farther group is 3 sets of 4 for 1960w east or west for a 2000w inverter.

Sharp eyes have doubtless noted that there are 3 inverters in the picture.  I started with 2 Trace 2000w models and picked up a deal on the middle Xantrex 2500w unit.  After Xantrex bought out Trace, they continued to make these models for awhile.  They are essentially the same inside with Xantrex instead of Trace on the label.

When I fired up the first Trace unit, it immediately blew up.  Some grit apparently escaped my cleanup.  So dismantled the other Trace and put the board thru the dishwasher.  Checked it more thoroughly, then re-installed it in place of the blown unit.  Worked fine for about 3 months, then it blew up too.  By that time I had gotten the xantrex unit and after dishwasher cleaning, it worked fine.  Did have 2 working at same time for a short time till the power company showed up.  As of today the Xantrex still works and I use it sometimes with the powerjack 'grid'.

The likely question at this point is why use these old inverters?  Why not a sunnyboy or xantrex gt series? 
I like the 48v style inverters over the string type newer models for a few reasons.  My system in San Diego was a string.  A Gt3 Xantrex.  It was ok. Worked reasonably well for years.
What I didn't like was that one little cloud or stray shadow dropped almost the entire output to nothing.  Any issue at all dropped output to nothing.  With the 48v style there are up to 6 strings of nominal 48v each (I get usually 79-82v from 2 320w in series per string)  Shading one panel drops output wattage by that set's wattage only.  Everything else still produces.  Idaho has lots of partly cloudy days.  I'm much happier with the output of these units.  Sadly, they are old.  For electronics they are almost ancient.  So they blow.  And nobody will even talk to me about repairing them.  One working unit left.
I have changed the flaky 230vac variable speed fan to a high air flow 12vdc fan controlled by the same type temp controllers I use on the powerjacks.  2 level control with half and full speed fans.  Much more air than the original but noisier.  Hey, they're in the back shed so who cares.  My electronics don't run hot!  (Sometimes they blow up anyway...)

The power company, after catching me running my 4000w of grid tie without supplication, groveling, a ton of paperwork, and of course fees, threatened various levels of retribution, fines, and excommunication from the great and powerful Power Company. 
Unless, of course, I agreed to sign up, do the paperwork, pay the fees, and above all don't run that solar system until it is "Approved", "Inspected", and Signed Off by someone just a couple chairs left of the Almighty.
At the time agreeing seemed prudent.  I accepted and read the inch thick stack of regulations the power company provided.  Signed up and paid the non-refundable fee for asking permission to apply.  That's right.  First I have to ask permission to apply.  Then, if given, I can apply.  After that I went down and applied for my State Permit (another fee of course)
Some of the fine print in that stack of paperwork had informed me that I now had 1 year max to complete my project, or I would have to pay again and start over.  With a year to mull it over, and after speaking with the Person at the state permit div who made the decisions, it became pretty clear that there were just too many hoops to jump through.  Also, inviting an inspector onto my property seemed like a worse idea each time I thought about it.  So i shortly had decided to let the year run out with the state permit and tell the power company just as the year ran out that I had cancelled the project.  We have now passed the year deadline.  I left a message with my contact at the power company that the project was cancelled about 2 weeks ago, and no reply.  Good so far.  Nothing from the state either.  I had an online access to my 'project', which I cancelled.  Maybe I'll get lucky and they will just quietly fade away.  If I just get a couple more weeks, I'll be done with my rewiring in the house.  Then I'm ready for em if they persist.  My grid tie system will not be electrically or any other way connected to the grid, removing their basis for complaint.
Of course, that makes sense, and sense usually isn't what Authority relies upon.  Time will tell
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on August 08, 2019, 05:32:11 pm
Well, not the best of news.
Solar company wants $2950 usd to mount my 20 panels on the roof in my desired layout.  No wiring. No State or power company involvement. Easy install.
I think he didn't really want the job.  "Quote him a high price and he'll go away"
It worked.  Done with him.

Called a second outfit whose secretary said their guy would call me.  No call.

The typical deal these companies make with folks is mostly fluff bordering on scam, but it makes them a lot of money.  My straightforward "Just mount some panels" deal has only a small profit compared to the other.

Looking like I will have to do it myself after all. :-[

Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on August 08, 2019, 07:36:27 pm
Hi Doc, well putting the panels up yourself is not very difficult. That is as long as you are reasonably strong, fit enough to climb ladders with a panel on your shoulders and careful.
I don't know what sort of roof you have, but here we have a metal roof, it is pretty easy to fit the racks  on a tin roof.
Just take a roof screw out, use a larger stronger screw to replace it and mount the panel foot plate.
Then fit the racks after all the feet are mounted.
The panel racks are not very expensive and make mounting panels really easy.
Like you said about the installer, they make plenty of money on the panels and inverters etc, just mounting panels is not much of a money spinner for them.
Maybe you could just hire a handyman to help you, My panels are 250 watt jobs, they are easy enough to handle if all is calm. Add a breeze and things get a bit more interesting.
Cheers
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on October 28, 2019, 10:00:43 pm
I feel like I've been somewhere...
Haven't been able to access this forum for weeks.  'Site not available'.  Suddenly two days ago I tried, got right in, and it appears everything is fine here.
Was this board down?  Or was I being blocked somehow?

Anyway,  the solar panels are now on the roof.  I built racks out of pressure treated 2x4.  Hired 2 young men to do the lifting and carrying.  More work than I planned on doing, but a 10th the cost.
Hope to start running wire tomorrow.  If it  doesn't snow.  Snow is predicted but even if it does it probably won't stick.  Charge controllers are already  mounted and wired except for the solar input.
Getting anxious to get these panels producing.  Should aproximately triple my solar production, giving me enough for winter.  Summer I will have power to burn.

The other problem is I currently don't have a running inverter to power my house.  My main 15kw blew up about the same time I lost contact with Anotherpower.  I think my hybrid unit, while still runnable, is what fried led lights, made my oven shut off, and the fridge sound funny one day.  So took it off line.  Wasn't regulating voltage well at loads over 2kw so don't trust it running the house.  That's when I hooked up the Upower/Powerjack and ran half the house with it for a couple of weeks.  Then I stupidly caused it to blow up too.  Yes that one is definitely my fault.  Rookie mistake

While all this is going on, I discovered a guy named Sean who has a website called Genetry Solar.com.  He's a real nice guy and he is the North American rep for powerjack warranty work.  He also sells powerjack parts.  He does a youtube channel also and has a direct line to powerjack.
I bought 2 sets of mosfet boards and 2 version 8 control boards to update my (2) 15kw powerjacks to have output voltage control.  Unfortunately it took weeks to get my parts  and then the first test resulted in blown fets.  That's where I am today.  The second main board seems to have the same issue as the first one right before it blew up, so the problem is consistent but haven't nailed it down yet.  Hopefully without blowing up another set of fets.
The nice thing is these control boards are modular, once we get them to work they should be easier to maintain.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on November 05, 2019, 09:50:07 pm
I haven't made any progress towards repairing 15kw inverters, but there is news.  I managed to get a good deal on an ebay auction from Dr.powerjack, who is actually powerjack the company's ebay seller name.  It's one of their 'panel display' style cases with 2 lcd screens.

[attach=1]

Only problem is I won't get it for several weeks.
 
Then last night I was on craigslist and came across a local selling a powerjack.  And it is a 15kw!  And it is 48v!  And it's cheap!
Just got home with it but won't get it to test until in the morning.  Its the aluminum clamshell like my others.  I did open it up for a quick look, though.  Its about the age of my original 15kw and has 3 xfmrs like my original 15kw. 

Here's hoping its ok and I can get back off grid soon.
I hate paying the power company.

Since I've had no inverters running my battery bank is full all the time.  So I've been running 2 'radiator' type heaters in the basement directly off the 48v bank during the day.  Also a flat panel in the bathroom 24/7. 

Also getting close to having the new solar panels on the roof hooked up and charging that bank.  Supposed to be nice weather tomorrow so will maybe get it done.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on November 06, 2019, 03:48:28 pm
Good to hear that you are still at it Doc.
When we moved to our new place nearly 2 years ago, there was mains power, but we had it disconnected and cut the poles down.
Been off grid now for so long that I just can't come at the idea of paying bills and relying on an unreliable supplier.
We are 10 klm up a dirt road on a mountain. Lots of wind and lots of power failures from trees falling over the powerlines. So solar is perfect.
Fortunately we have a very small house, and only two of us living here so a 2kw system with a 5kw ( ha ha) powerjack have done us well.
We only run 12 volt as we have minimal stuff. Sometimes I have thoughts of going up in voltage so that I can run my compressor off an inverter but then as it is only run for a couple of hours a year it is not worth the trouble.
Glad to hear that you found a new inverter and a supplier for parts. Freight sounds slow though.
Have fun
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on November 06, 2019, 06:12:31 pm
Hi Pete!
I was beginning to think I was the only person using anotherpower.   Not much activity these days.  BTW, was this site down for a few weeks recently?  Either it was down or I was being blocked from accessing it.  Strange...

Do you have windmills?  Would think on a mountain harnessing some wind would be worthwhile.  We get some serious wind here sometimes.  The key being sometimes.  Solar is more regular.
I still intend to put some work into windmills eventually, but not until the solar and a few other projects are done.  A little nighttime charging would be nice.

The old style 15kw I bought cheap last night works ok.  I'm about done 'fixing' it for use.  Meaning disconnecting the battery charging inputs,  rewiring the large 'input' connector for output use, rewiring the second breaker into the L2 output lead(both hot leads now fused), hooking up my external fan controls and temp meters, and hooking up external power meters for both L1 and L2.  Oh, and can't forget correcting the polarity of the 'universal' receptacle.  Powerjack always wires them reversed polarity.  Maybe its correct for countries other than the US, I don't know.
No voltage control so I'll have to be content with 115/230v output, at least until my new powerjack gets here.   

Got some wire run to the roof today.  Nice weather for it.  Tomorrow hope to make my splices and connect it all up.  Triple my current solar charging!  I should be able to power the neighbor's house as well as mine on good sun days!
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on November 06, 2019, 10:10:57 pm
Hi Doc, as far as I know the site has been fine, I check it most days for activity, as you say pretty quiet.
We don't have wind power, so far we have got by with just sun.
Most days our battery bank is regulating by around 10:30 am.
Even on cloudy days we manage to charge the batteries fine.
Our regulators are MPPT and I have the panels connected in 3 strings of 60 volts or so. Batteries are 12 volt 660 amp hour.
We get a lot of wind but are surrounded by forest so turbulence is pretty strong. A vertical axis mill may work but so far we don't need it.
I have a standby charger made with a 5 hp honda clone motor and an old alternator from our Subaru. The internal regulator died in it so I fitted a new one to the car and adapted the old car one to the charger.
Basically I gutted the alternator, pulled all the diodes and regulator our, leaving just the brush gear.
Then brought out the 3 main phase wires to a 200 amp three phase diode block. ( they are really cheap on ebay)
I used a rheostat to set the charge current on the field and usually set the current to around 50 amps.
So far I have only used it twice for a couple of hours in the last year since i made it.
As I say our power consumption is tiny. Just lights, some music, laptop computers, phone charging and power tools.
Hope your system does the job for you
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Wolvenar on November 21, 2019, 04:33:41 am
As far as I know, the site was only down for a short time when the local area was having massive power problems.
The fault was mostly do to the ISP nodes not being able to outlast the outtage. But the down time was measured in hours, not days or weeks.

You can check if a site is down by visiting
https://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/
Type the site to be checked and enter.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on November 30, 2019, 09:09:57 pm
Thanks for that link Wolvenar!  Hopefully won't need it. 

Life is good.  That 2015 style 15kw powerjack I got on craigslist locally is now powering the house.  It is one of the 3-transformer models like my original 15kw (currently DOA).  Seems to be reliable, its quiet, and it showed up just when I needed it.

All the roof solar panels are now hooked up and producing!  On good sun days (for a november winter's short days), the batteries get fully charged with some left over to dump load into water heating.
On not-so-good-sun days, (snowing yesterday) I shift half the house back onto the grid.  Even cloudy days provide enough charging to handle half the house.

Hi Pete.  That alternator charger sounds perfect for your situation.  We're not as economical with power as we should be so we use the grid as back up instead of a generator.  At least as long as it lasts.  When they shut it off for good we'll get suddenly efficient and thrifty with power use I suspect.  Until then this setup should do the job.  I have a couple of generators but haven't messed with them in some time.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on March 30, 2020, 09:39:01 pm
It's early spring here in Idaho.  Most days I run the house on my older model 15kw/48v powerjack.  I switch back to grid after sundown.  Soon the days will be longer and the nights short enough to just leave the house on the pj 24/7.  Meantime there is no reason to run my batteries down trying to run it over long nights.
My newest large 48v/15kw dual lcd pj is awaiting its replacement control board from Powerjack.  No idea how long that will take.  My small Upower clone 48v/15kw would be runable now but I didn't get the right lfdriver board.  I didn't realize the ver 9 control boards use a version 9 lfdriver board. All previous control boards back to v6 (I think) use v4 lfdriver boards.  I suspect the v4 lfdriver would work on the v9 control board but not willing to test it.
Meanwhile I'm waiting for Sean at Genetry to send me 2 tested sets of v8 control boards mated with new mainboards for my other 2 old clamshell 48v/15kw pjs.  Apparently both of the original mainboards for those 2 have problems.  I couldn't get either one to work.

I've still got some wire to run to make full use of my solar panels that I originally set up for grid tie.  For winter use I just had them piggybacked together to one c40 charge controller.  With summer approaching fast I need to run another cable and put some on a separate c40.  Yesterday after a rain shower the sun popped out and I was reading over 55 amps on 1 c40 (rated 40 amps continuous - 85 amps max) so went and pulled the fuses on the extra panels.  They obviously need their own controller.

I have a shop that has my older batteries in it that I brought from San Diego.  They run a 12v/8kw pj that powers my camper and part of the shop.  Switchable to grid.  Most of the solar panels on the shop were being used to charge the house batteries (priorities) over the last 2 years, but now that I finally have my panels on the house roof online, the shop panels can power the shop.  Some connections to change and a bit of wire to run out there.

On the other side of the yard I have another smaller shed/shop where I plan to use some 250w panels to charge (5) 105ah gel batteries to run a 12v/5kw powerjack to power an irrigation pump.  Will probably set it up to make power for the shed also.  Hope to get on that project this summer so I can set up some irrigation for remote parts of my pasture that turn brown in summer.

Well thats enough rambling and wishfull thinking for today.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on March 30, 2020, 10:25:16 pm
Sounds like you have lots of projects to get you through the corona virus shutdown.
Seems that you have had more than your share of inverter woes.
I have a 12 volt 5kw ( very optimistic) PJ that runs our house, Never given a bit of trouble. Then all my lighting and small loads are 12 volt direct, the inverter only does a few 240 volt loads and when there is extra solar power it runs a water pump and hot water element when required.
Have fun getting all your stuff running
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on April 04, 2020, 10:38:03 pm

Thanks Pete,
Progress seems to come in small chunks.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on April 12, 2020, 09:38:57 pm

Ok.
Today I worked on one of my out of commission older 15kw powerjacks.  I pulled the metal plates and the thru-bolts from all 3 transformers.  Took the xfmrs out one at a time, removed the metal baseplate, and cleaned up the space underneath.  Cut 4 small wood pieces and used silicone sealer to stick them in place so they won't slide around as I position the xfmr.  I didn't have enough rubber pieces so used wood. 

[attach=1][attach=2]

The xfmrs in these inverters are 2000w rated (by powerjack).

[attach=3]

So got all 3 re-positioned on their spacers so there is air flow thru the middle and underneath each one.  Then used more silicone to mount a 30mm fan on top of each xfmr, blowing down into the middle.  I like the silicone because its forgiving.  If (when) I change my mind I can peel it off without damage.  I may change to 40mm fans if these don't cool enough, but had the smaller ones at hand.  The 3 fans will run when the 2 stock xfmr fans run.

[attach=4]

I still need to remove the bad mainboard to make room for the new one hopefully arriving soon.  Also considering pulling off the endplate at the exhaust end.  It just doesn't let enough air out for good cooling/heat transfer.

Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on April 13, 2020, 05:49:11 pm
Old mainboard out.  Space cleaned.  Note from 2nd pic that I always trash the original phillips screws holding down the + battery and output ac to xfmr connections on the heatsinks.  New bolts are hex head, making removal/installation much easier.  I highly recommend this to anyone dealing with changing out a mainboard.

[attach=1]
[attach=2]

Below is a pic of my 15kw that's currently running the house.  (The only one that works! )
[attach=3]
[attach=4]

I have propped open the top cover at the exhaust end about 1 inch with some foam pieces.  This allows enough air to exhaust to keep it in temp range.  Air comes out both sides and at the top of the endplate around foam pieces.  Too much coming out near the mainboard end so so duct tape fixes that.

So the lower inverter, the one to get the new parts soon, is going to get its endplate removed.  Then we'll see how that works without propping the top cover.  Still need the on/off switch and small ckt board so have to reposition those.  Output terminal block can just sit on bottom case end, and just eliminate the other stuff.  If it works out will mod the upper unit after the lower unit is running the house.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on April 13, 2020, 05:53:04 pm

Don't know why all the pics are ending up turned 90 degrees left.  They look fine on my computer....
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on May 02, 2020, 11:24:30 am

Finally got 1 of my mainboard/control board sets from Sean at Genetry.  After apparently losing the first shipment.  So this isn't even the control board I sent to him in the first place.  It is what it is.  No idea when I'll get the other set.  He's already forgotten it once.  I'm beginning to think he is in over his head with his business.

Anyway, this set was supposedly tested for over 12 hours.  Hopefully it is good to go.
I now have it installed and everything hooked up except the 12v fan circuit.  The main 48v fan has been swapped out for a 12v fan, and the 3 small fans on the transformers are also 12v.  Those will all be powered off of the control board's 12v fan connection.

[attach=1]

Yes, all powerjack v8 and v9 control boards only output 12v for their fan circuits now regardless of the inverter's rated voltage.  My new dual lcd model has 48v fans but they don't take power from the control board.  Nothing plugs into the fan ckt on that one.  Funny, the older model control boards wouldn't even run without a fan plugged in.

Back to this inverter, either the control board or my heatsink temp control will run the four 12v fans.  Powerjack's thermal switches or my transformer temp control will run the 2 stock 120mm 48v transformer fans.  My controls usually do the switching on of fans, as I set the setpoints so they come on sooner. There is a manual fan switch for the 12v fans but I need to add one for the 48v fans also.

What's left to do is removing the output endplate to improve airflow.  I've got it pulled loose and am waffling on what to reposition and what to just eliminate.

[attach=2]

Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on May 02, 2020, 04:21:42 pm
Pictures are still posting rotated 90 degrees left.  Don't know why.

Probably just going to eliminate the inverter endplate entirely.  I was originally going to turn it 90 degrees, parallel to the side of the case and screw it to the case.  I realize now that it's too much of a rat's nest to do that.  So most everything attached to the endplate gets eliminated.  The main large white 3 pole output connector will just sit on the base of the end of the case.  The outputs from the control board, (L1 and L2) and the neutral (center tap) leads will hook directly to it.  It's my connection point to my separate output 3 pole breaker.  The smaller black output connector that sits on the outside of the endplate I use for connecting my meters, so will retain that but not sure where yet.

Plan to mount the on/off switch and the manual fan switches on a small plate next to my meters.  Also the little circuit board that has the voltage control and led lights in it.

Eliminating the endplate itself, the 2 push button breakers, that crappy universal receptacle, the smaller white 110v connector, and the 110v input socket.  That should clean things up nicely.
Wll repost a pic here after re-saving it, to see if it's rotated...

Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on May 02, 2020, 09:39:47 pm
Maybe you should go into production of your own inverters and sell them. Seems that buying a cheap inverter then modifying it heaps is a pain. Once you get them right you could apply for a job at Powerjack or just make your own brand.
I guess this is why some folk just buy expensive reputable brands. But then you have to have the money in the first place.
Nice work Doc
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: solarnewbee on May 03, 2020, 05:42:51 am
Doc you’ve one heck of a frankenverter there 😝.

That’s stuff right up my alley. The kind of thing I always thought of doing with a desktop, just mount all the parts to the wall next the desk. The new 9kw, 15kw and now the all stainless 20kw don’t have any lcd meters. The 20kw has a bunch of fuses on the front. And of course no labels as you know doc, all stamped out now. That’s as green and efficient as you can get as far as labeling goes. Grid ties are going away tho.

Let us know when your live !
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on May 03, 2020, 08:56:43 pm

Well Pete, back when I started getting interested in inverters for running the house, I could get a 24v 8kw powerjack for a fifth of the price of a 2kw Magnasyne or Outback.  Seemed like a no brainer. A lot I didn't know at the time. (A lot more I still don't know now!)  Plus had little money to spend.
Go into business?  I'm retired and staying that way hopefully.  Also don't have the patience it takes to run a business anymore.  (There was a time...)

SN, I hardly use the pj lcds.  The lcd for this inverter fried long ago and was removed.  I have a volt/watt meter on each 120v leg.  Much more realistic readings than the pj lcd. 
Powerjack seems to be experimenting with some different stuff.  The monster transformer in the 20kw will doubtless be impossible to keep cool in a closed case.  The big case is actually not too great a design for heat removal. That's why they come with 3 or more loud fans.  My old 3 transformer models are actually a better design in some ways.  The heat generated by a specific load is easier to dissipate when spread over 3 smaller transformers than 1 large xfmr.  It's probably cheaper for them to build and sell units with one large xfmr, though.   Also the straight thru design of the old models allowed more efficient cooling with less fan power and subsequent noise.  (Gotta remove the endplate and the xfmr plates and bolts!)
Hopefully powerjack will soon realize that the dual mainboard setup is a bad design too.  Either that or build a control board that actually controls 2 mainboards properly. One very large mainboard with more fets on it would work much better than 2 separate boards.

Powerjack is apparently going to put out some new gridtie inverters in near future.  No idea what will be different from their previous attempts.  I have a couple of their older gridties on a shelf in the shop.  Gave up on them some time ago.  Not sure why I still have them.

Thanks for the encouragement guys!

Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on May 06, 2020, 09:45:53 pm
Yesterday finished removing endplate parts and rerouting fan wires.  Endplate is history.  Should be good airflow now

[attach=1]

The change in control boards required changing the little circuit board on the endplate that has the voltage control pot, leds and other stuff.  The ribbon cable connecting the new circuit board to the control board is too short to make it too far anyway, so mounted it just outside the control board on the side of the rack.  Notched the top cover to let the wires out.  Since the on/off switch plugs into that circuit board, mounted it next to the circuit board.  Also mounted 2 manual fan switches.

[attach=2]

I'm not the greatest carpenter in the world, but it will do.

Everything is now connected and ready for test.  Turned it on and got blinking leds and a beeping after 3 seconds.  Shut it down.  Not starting.  This was supposed to be a tested set according to Sean.  That's what I paid for.
Well, spent most of today texting back and forth with Sean, trying to troubleshoot it.  Painfully slow process.  Sure wish I had the schematics and documentation that he has.  His apparent diagnosis is that the base of the control board is bad.  Hmmm, tested?
He already has parts to send me so hopefully he will get to me what I need soon.
More delays....
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on May 07, 2020, 04:17:23 am
Painful Process Doc.
Sure is a lot of work to get a supposedly working inverter to work.
Pity they are not designed well in the first place.
good to know that you have a good dose of perserverence.
Maybe a bicycle frame and a generator would be easier, just peddle whenever you want power. Not so much to go wrong.
It is good to read of your experiments
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on May 08, 2020, 11:01:20 pm
Well I did some troubleshooting with Sean (by text) and he thinks the charger/output board portion of the control board is the culprit.  Doesn't seem that likely, but willing to let him lead since I feel it has to be something to do with his control board, and this way at least he's taking some responsibility.  No reason to suspect my transformers.  (When was the last time you ever heard of a transformer spontaneously "going bad"?)
He is sending my other "tested" control board/mainboard set that I already paid for, plus a replacement charger /output board for this one.  Supposed to be here Monday.
Will try to be patient till Monday.
Ommmmmmmmmmmm.........
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on May 12, 2020, 05:27:36 pm
Well, my parts got sent to Georgia.
I live in Idaho.  (I checked!)
Customer in Georgia is supposed to be forwarding package to me.  No idea when it will get here (if ever!)
Chances of "damaged in shipping"  just doubled!

At least my luck is consistent...
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on May 14, 2020, 04:03:06 pm

Parts arrived!  Nothing appears broken!  It's a miracle!
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on May 18, 2020, 08:36:33 pm
I suspected the charger board wouldn't fix it.  Nothing fixes it.  Tried swapping parts from the new set.  Same results. 
I have to face the unpleasant conclusion that there is something wrong with my transformers.  Don't see how.  But there is nothing else in the mix. 

So, going to take a left turn, pull out my hybrid inverter made from my other 15kw powerjack case and transformers with a new chinese inverter board, and rework it back to full powerjack with the second set from Sean.  Now that I have just tested these transformers.  Here it is with the generic inverter installed.

[attach=1]
[attach=2]

I pulled it out, opened it, checked it, powered it up, let it run for awhile, checked voltage and frequency, then turned it off. 
Commenced to remove the inverter board.  Also removed bolts and plates from the 2 transformers in this unit.  This one has two As3 transformers (about 3000w each).  The 3 transformers in the other unit are As2 (2000w).  I need to make some blocks to set the two transformers on like I did with the other transformers.  Add a couple of fans on top of each xfmr.  Pull the endplate and mod the output like I just did with the failed unit.

So with the second mainboard/control board set installed with these tested xfmrs, It either proves the other xfmrs bad or that something "else" is at fault.  It pretty much HAS to be the xfmrs at this point.
Work to do...
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on May 18, 2020, 09:38:25 pm
Hi Doc, just wondering if it is possible to try the inverter that you suspect has bad transformers with just one of transformers at a time connected.
There is a chance that one of the transformers may have a short and be pulling the other down with it.
Or they may not be connected right, possibly they have paralleled them with one transformer fighting the others.
Just a thought
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on May 20, 2020, 09:21:34 pm
Hi Pete,
You are exactly right.  Next step with that inverter is to test transformers individually. 
Before I do that, however,  I'm hoping to get at least one of these 2 older style inverters working.  Putting the second board set into the other inverter with it's tested transformers seems a quicker way to get one running.  At the same time it verifies that the transformers have to be the problem in the first inverter.
Then I'll go back and test transformers. 
I expect that you are correct that one is pulling the other two down.  Ready to soon get this solved and move on.....
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on May 23, 2020, 10:32:31 pm

Just when I thought it couldn't get any stranger, it does!

Got the 'second set' installed in the 2nd powerjack.  Powered it up.  Lights up and runs.  No flashing lights.  No beeping.  Great, right?
Just one problem.  Output voltage is not 240/120 volts.  Instead I get 120/60 volts out.  Huh?
Checked and rechecked everything.  Same result.  Inverter mainboard is putting 16-17 volts into the transformers (just as a 24v inverter would do)

So the first inverter with the first complete control board/mainboard set in it blinks, beeps and won't start up.
The second inverter with the second set starts and run perfectly...  at half voltage.
Wonderful!

I guess now I will have to take the blinking control board and put it in the other inverter and see what happens.  Tomorrow....
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on May 24, 2020, 05:34:23 pm
Wow Doc, you sure are having fun!
Sounds like someone who connects the transformers isn't quite up to the job.
Maybe they paralleled the secondary windings rather than series .
Good luck
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on June 02, 2020, 09:59:11 pm
Sorry so slow updating.  Been a bit frustrated.

Switched the control boards in the two powerjacks.  The symptoms moved with the control boards.  Yes, the first powerjack now runs fine at half  output voltage and the other one just blinks then beeps.  It also proves the hookup was correct as results switched units perfectly.  These things at the very least verify that the control boards are "bad" in some way.  It also proves the transformers are good in both powerjack units.  It also proves I connected things correctly, or else I duplicated my mistakes perfectly when boards were switched.  That part is good anyway.  Sadly, Sean doesn't get it.  His best answer was that the blinking set was simply me "accidentally" running in powersave mode.  He suggested I send the control boards to him and he would video them running perfectly for me to see.
 
I was very tempted to reply with something less than pleasant.

Luckily we were only 'talking' by text.  Time for me to maintain restraint.  I need him to replace the junk with good working parts.  Can't afford to piss him off right now.  That's what I told myself.
Anyway,  I think I've mentioned that I think his heart is in the right place.  Still think so.  Seems to burn the candle at both ends.

Sent him the stuff.  He'll get the stuff tomorrow.  I did text him this morning that the stuff was on its way to him.  Did nicely predict for him what I thought was wrong with each board. 
He seems to think I'm not too bright.  Perhaps he's right.  Sometimes I think I'm pretty stupid, actually.  Other times, I actually hit through to the problem.  This time, by simple process of elimination, I proved some things both positive and negative.  Sean refuses or is unable to see despite me videoing the test-running of both.  Then videoed my 2nd test-running of both after switching control boards.  In this instance I'm on pretty firm ground
Admittedly, my video skills are not top level.  Also my stupid phone insists on turning pictures and video 90 degrees counterclockwise when it sends them to either text or email.  Can't figure out why.  I can fix pictures now but videos still get turned.
Anyway, it will be interesting to see what he reports.  Hopefully he's tired enough (finally!) of hearing from me to get me some decent parts.  At least he should understand by now that I will persist until I get what I paid for, Plus shipping....
Sounds good anyway.
Who knows?
Would like to get these two running before martial law is declared.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on June 03, 2020, 09:32:39 pm
Hi Doc, well it sounds like you are having a tough time, hope that Sean can find the problem.
A bit of a double whammy in the US at the moment.
First Corona virus now riots.
Hopefully you will get your inverter going before the whole place shuts down.
Take care
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on September 06, 2020, 03:40:19 pm
A quick update;

Can't seem to get a working version 8 control board, so done with that. 
Sean (Genetry Solar) is coming out with a simplified all purpose control board that is supposed to drop right into any powerjack inverter.  Now being tested and tweaked before production.  Sean has promised me 2 of them as soon as they are available.
So that's on hold until I get them.  Several weeks at least.

In other news, 6 of my (20) 200ah/12v SLA batteries are starting to get weak.  Only 3 years old.
They do fine in the day when there is solar charging, but overnight some of them are unevenly dropping down too much.  With winter on approach, that's not going to cut it.

Got a deal on (10) 24v/220ah BYD Lifepo4 modules.  2 will power my 24v water heater setup and the other 8 will form my 48v bank for running the house.  If they would just get delivered.....
Ups tracking says they are scheduled for delivery on 2 Sep.  Today is the 6th.....
My usual luck
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on September 07, 2020, 01:41:43 am
Hi Doc, delivery is pretty patchy these days. I ordered a motocycle part from the US and it took nearly 5 months to get to Tasmania where I live.
Other stuff I have ordered has gone from LA to New York to Singapore to Perth in Western Australia, then to Sydney Aus, then to Melbourne Aus then to Tasmania.
Even our postal system is chaotic with covid restictions. Fortunately we are clear of Covid in Tasmania as far as we know, so life is pretty normal here except post and delivery times.
Keep us up to date on the simplified PJ control board.
Oh do you know if Power Jack and U Power are the same company or do U power just make PJ clones?
Sounds like you will have plenty of battery power when they turn up.
We have just gone from 12 volt to 24 so now have a 24 volt 660 amp hour bank. We seem to be using about 4 to 5% of the storage overnight. I am pretty happy with that.
Cheers and hope the batteries turn up soon.
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on September 10, 2020, 09:45:55 pm
Hi Pete,
My best guesstimate is that Powerjack only writes Powerjack on its big box models now, and puts Upower on the smaller cased units.  Sort of a Cadillac - Chevy deal.  I think they are all put together in the same factory using the same internal parts.  Some just named differently.

My batteries are supposed to be delivered tomorrow.  Guess we'll see.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: solarnewbee on January 26, 2021, 10:44:32 am
Hi doc,

I have an early version of the 24v 15kw as pictured in your avatar. Was wondering if you know if it can be connected to grid. According to the guy at Genetry Solar PowerJack never has had a grid tie inverter until HE designs one. I do remember them selling inverters advertised as grid tie. Now they don’t sell under PowerJack name but they do sell and warn that they don’t grid tie anymore.

Adios Muchacho!
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on January 26, 2021, 09:43:17 pm
Hi SN,
To my knowledge, no regular powerjack inverter can be grid-tied.  I'm certainly not an expert in grid tie, but that's my opinion.  I do have 2 of the actual powerjack gridtie units sitting on a shelf in my shed.  I messed around with them a couple years ago and had mixed and mostly disappointing results from them.  Only keeping them because I'm part packrat.  They are no longer sold by powerjack, probably with good reason.

Probably should take things Sean (Genetry) says with a grain of salt.  He's probably a great guy but has been known to put out some less-than-valid information (See his video explaining how powerjack inverters don't really put out 240v, as an example).  Luckily for him and his customers he has lately partnered up with a really sharp guy named Sid who seems to be helping keep him on track. Still no new control boards from Genetry.  Just promises....

My system has changed significantly during the last few months, and I hope to catch up on my postings soon.  Also have a couple of new projects in the planning stages waiting for warmer weather.

Take care all

Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: solarnewbee on January 27, 2021, 06:00:54 am
Thanks Doc
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on February 02, 2021, 04:31:57 pm

Well, as shown in my other posts,  my Lifepo4 batteries are installed and functioning well.  My broken inverters are still broken.  Genetry keeps saying 'soon' for their new controllers.  Not holding my breath. I'm making other plans.

Anyway, my best running inverter is still my 3rd old-style clamshell model 48v 15kw powerjack.  It has a version 3 or maybe 4 control board and I'm keeping my fingers crossed it continues to perform well. So far, so good.  I took advantage of wintertime to do some improvements to it. 
Last summer I noticed that the transformers were running pretty warm, so propped up the end of the case lid to improve airflow.

[attach=1]
[attach=2]

This reduced running temp by 10 degrees but was a bit hokey.  Temporary.  Foam pieces to hold it up and ducttape to direct the air.  Did the job tho.  So several months later I finally did a more permanent improvement.

I changed both the transformer fans.  (It still had the original weak powerjack fans.)  Now the fan in front of the last transformer (this is a 3 transformer model) is a medium speed unit.  The fan in front of the second transformer is a high speed fan that runs at half speed when started with the other one.  Added an additional sensor that kicks it up to full speed when the temp stays up high enough (higher loads). 

Got rid of the foam and duct tape and seated the cover correctly.  It's been a month and it hasn't kicked in the high speed once.  (It'll see use this summer!)  The transformer is running cooler all the time now and the mainboard heatsink is also benefitting from lower running temps.

I have to say these older model, multiple transformer inverters are a better design than the newer, single xfmr models.  You need less robust airflow to keep them cool.  So its quieter (slower fan speeds needed) and more efficient.  Simple math.  With the same load spread to 3 xfmrs, your heat buildup is also spread to 3 xfmrs.  3 xfmrs have more surface area than one large one.  Less airflow needed to pick up the heat and carry it away.  Also the clamshell models shape does a better job of keeping the airflow where it does the most good.

That being said, powerjack managed to screw up the airflow by cluttering up the exhaust end with plugs, connectors, switches and stuff.  So I simplified mine and got rid of some of the unnecessary junk.  Then I cut the endplate.

[attach=3]
[attach=4]

You can see part of the reason why the high speed fan hasn't yet been needed.  I get great airflow out of that endplate now.  And the inverter doesn't run appreciably louder than stock.  Clearing the airflow path reduces the resistance to flow and makes the fans work less hard, making them actually run quieter (and more efficient) than they did before the butchering.  Looks much better now too.  The jacked up lid and tape/foam was a Rube Goldberg setup.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on February 03, 2021, 01:58:06 am
Looks like a trap for the unwary. I am guessing that you don't have much of a problem with rodents or insects that like to chew wiring. I try to seal my electronics stuff by putting flywire over the vents to prevent unwanted critters deciding to live inside.
I used to repair electronic stuff in an earlier life. We used to see a lot of damage to circuit boards and small hookup wires from Cockroaches. Their urine seems especially corrosive to copper tracks, and they seem to like eating pvc insulation too.
Hope you don't have critter problems where you are.
Oh I even had to repair a cool room compressor once where an ant got itself between the contacts of a pressure switch and held the contacts open by sacrificing its life.
Cheers
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on February 03, 2021, 04:58:42 pm

Hi Pete,
You're right.  I have no worries about critters where this is used.  No one comes in this room but my wife and me and she knows better than to stick a hand in anything.  Spiders and gnats would be the worst problem bugs here, and since they could crawl in through the regular grillwork anyway, screening won't stop them.  No cockroaches around here luckily.  A little regular cleanup once in awhile suffices.
Outside, yellowjackets get in literally everything and are a real pain as they clog openings up with dirt.  I have to clean my air blower nozzle for my compressor in the shed all the time.  They even fill electric receptacle slots that don't get used often.
Several cats on the property keep rodents at a distance from the house, and two indoor cats in case any get in...
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on February 03, 2021, 09:43:15 pm


Since I'm still waiting for Genetry Solar to come out with their promised simplified control board, I have to go a different way.  I'm not giving up on my older model 15kw powerjacks.  And I'm tired of waiting for parts that will work.

So found these Upower 6kw 24v inverters at a price cheaper than the cost of the parts to build them.  So I bought 2.

[attach=1]
[attach=2]

These have the newer v10.3 powerjack simplified control boards that can be jumper-selected for input voltage.  12, 24, and 48v.  They also have 115/230v transformers, so I can be pretty sure my 115/230v xfmrs in my old inverters will work just dandy.  The v8 control boards that Genetry sent me and that failed miserably shipped in powerjacks that used 130/260v transformers so i'm guessing that's why they failed to work.

So the plan is to use the new v10.3 control boards jumpered for 48v, use the control wiring and sensors and end panel leds, all hooked up in my old style clamshell case with my 3 old 230v transformers and output wiring.  Should work.  Guess we'll see.
Wish me luck.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on February 18, 2021, 03:21:48 pm
Ok, while the v10.3 control boards should work fine, I just got some info from Sid at Genetry Solar.  (He's the designer of their forthcoming control board)  After hearing what he had to say, I'm going to wait awhile longer on the hope of getting those Genetry control boards.
From what Sid says, I should end up with a much more reliable inverter if I use his boards.  So since I currently have working inverters to run the house, I'm going to be patient (awhile longer).

I am going to predict that if these GS boards work as well as described, that Powerjack's next control board version will be a knock off of Sid's boards. Within a year is my guess. (They are being assembled at Powerjack's facility after all) 
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on March 21, 2021, 01:07:53 pm
Spring has sprung, somewhat, here in Idaho.  We're getting more sunny days, and they are getting longer. 
As of March 19, I'm off grid 24/7.  Have been using grid power at night but with the new battery bank doing well, the system is handling the overnight drain fairly easily (no charging for around 12-13 hours). Probably could have done it a couple weeks ago, but still learning my new battery bank's limits.  I fully expect some consecutive stormy days to force me back to grid power a night or two, but we'll see.
Also, as mentioned in another post, will soon be adding 8 more byd modules to my 48v bank, doubling its size/capacity.  Overkill for summer but will be nice next winter and on those stormy days.

As the weather warms up, hope to be starting a couple other projects soon.  A geothermal project and a compressed air energy storage project.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on March 21, 2021, 07:36:39 pm
Sounds like it is all going along well.
Soon you will be able to supply the rest of Idaho with power.
Pity that PowerJack/Upower are so rough and ready. Seems odd that we buy brand new machines then have to check them and fix faults before they are reliable or even working. I guess that is the price we pay for buying cheap machines.

Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on March 21, 2021, 10:16:39 pm
Quote
I guess that is the price we pay for buying cheap machines.

Yeah, I try to justify it but it gets down to "I'm just cheap"  I don't like soldering the small stuff anymore for the same reasons.  Eyesight and hands not as steady as they used to be.  Sucks getting old.  That's why I stocked up on mosboards.  Here's a link to a pretty good deal I bought;

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-24V-48V-lot-Mosfets-Boards-Pure-Sine-Wave-Power-Inverter-DC-AC-UPS-Charger/373115883376?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=641906540310&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-24V-48V-lot-Mosfets-Boards-Pure-Sine-Wave-Power-Inverter-DC-AC-UPS-Charger/373115883376?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=641906540310&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649)

Good seller /relatively quick shipping.  Two full sets for 104.99USD.

Beats soldering... 

Seller doesn't have the v9 lf drivers though.  Only has v7/8.  You need v9 for your newer inverter. I got some v9 from genetry awhile back but he's currently out of almost everything parts-wise.  Did you order yours from powerjack direct?
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on March 22, 2021, 02:11:24 am
Hi Doc, that is the seller I got my boards from. I bought two sets of mosfet boards and two driver boards.
My inverter must be an older type as the mosfet driver boards are the same as they show in their ad, and they work great.
Like you say a lot easier than soldering surface mount stuff. Even though the exchange rate racks the price up a bit.
My 8000 watt ( i reckon more like 2.5 kw) inverter looks the same as your 6kw one you show the photos off.
Mosfet boards only have 4 mosfets per board too.
Anyway It works and is up and running again.
Thanks
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on April 12, 2021, 09:34:57 pm

Just a quick update;
Been completely off grid since March 19.  Made it through a few stormy/cloudy days without going back to grid.  As the days get longer it's less and less likely I'll need grid power until winter comes back.
Now just need to get the new byd modules added to the 48v bank....
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on April 27, 2021, 06:45:43 pm

Last night I had to switch back to grid.  3 straight days of clouds/rain took it's toll.  Probably could have made it (sunny today, rain over) except the wife used the oven yesterday for about an hour.  About midnight my low battery alarm woke me up.  First time I've heard it. It's set to alarm if batteries go below 48v.  I probably should have just switched to grid before going to bed, but, well, wanted to see if it would make it.

Back on inverter by 10am this morning.  Fully charged by noon.  The sla batteries wouldn't have made it thru the first night after a cloudy day like these last 3, so not unhappy.  When the second set of eight byd modules gets hooked up (soon, I hope!) should be able to last through more than 3 days.  Bank size will be double the current size, 16 modules.  If they were new I could call it a 1760ah bank at 48v.  Not sure how much of that is left but should be enough for us. 

On another topic, being off grid also means being prepared for 'eventualities'.  The threat of war breaking out very soon has me concerned to the point that I am protecting 4 spare inverters, 2 charge controllers and some other electronics/parts from a possible emp.  I have 2 emp surge protection devices installed, but no idea if they will really do any good.  We are already well stocked on everything we could think of, so now its just wait and see if the insane/dementia riddled politicians in DC are going to keep prodding the bear in Ukraine. Suicidal!
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on October 17, 2021, 03:34:58 pm

Since the last post in April, when I went on grid due to some cloudy days, we've been off-grid continuosly.  One cloudy afternoon last week I switched the kitchen to grid so the wife could use the oven without draining my batteries.  About an hour then back off grid.

I don't try to solar power the central air conditioning, so when used it uses grid power.  This crazy summer with 100 degree + temps in June and July saw more grid power used than usual.  Cost me about $75 total to run the ac and be comfortable during those days.  I'm good with that.  In a 'no grid available' situation I have a window unit AC I could rig up in a short while to keep us cool if needed.

The sixteen BYD module 48v bank has worked very well over the summer. Double what we had last year.  Now in mid October I'm watching to see how much the voltage drops overnight.  Days getting shorter and nights longer.  Plus more cloudy days.  So far we're not even close to needing to shift to grid overnight.  Plus, I've added some 'winter only' additional solar panels to insure the batteries start each night with a full charge.

Just finished putting up and connecting 8 additional panels facing south at a steep angle to augment charging on the coming shorter (and more cloudy) winter days. Most of the year I have more than enough solar panels.  Those short winter days are another matter. My East-west array produces less and trees partially shade my rooftop panels during these months.
The additional 8 panels will be taken down and stored, probably in March.  They would interfere with my pasture irrigation, and aren't needed after that anyway.  (Till the next winter)
It's hoped that I can continue off grid farther into November with this additional charging power.  So far so good.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on October 17, 2021, 07:56:10 pm
Glad to hear that the system is working out Doc. Having extra panels for winter sounds like a good plan too. I have one 3kw bank of panels facing North, and a 2 kw bank facing North West. So the morning sun usually does the job. Unless the mountain fog comes in, then usually the North West panels get some power in, in the afternoon.
I copied your idea of standing the transformer in my inverter up on blocks to get some airflow under it. Even on fairly light loads on the new inverter ( 5kw Aliexpress 8010 board) , the transformer was getting hot. I also removed the steel band that was around the outside of the transformer too. I got the transformer from an 8kw dead powerjack I bought for $100. It had two transformers in it so I put together two 8010 based inverters. So far so good.
Hope the winter is kind to you
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on October 18, 2021, 12:53:05 pm

Thanks Pete,
I'm hoping for a mild winter but expecting one not so mild.  The extra panels should help.

I think you'll be pleased with the improvement in transformer cooling with it raised up.  Hope your 8010 inverters work out well for you.  Hearing about Lighthunter's success with his is making me think about trying another one myself.

Btw, did you put 2 turns around a ferrite core on each of the 2 low voltage leads of the transformer?  Powerjack puts 1 turn and usually only on 1 of the leads instead of both.  The difference might improve your transformer's running temp under light loads, as well as the idle current.  Maybe yours is already setup like that, or if not, might be worth trying.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on October 18, 2021, 05:34:23 pm
Thanks for the suggestion Doc, I did not change the ferrites, there is just the one torroidal ferrite on one lead.
I will chase some cores up and add them to see if it changes things.
Do you know what cores work best?
I did use an E core ferrite on my old PowerStar W7 it worked a bit to lower idle currents, but those things were brutal as far as idle goes.
Wondering if a couple of E cores would be better than torroids.
I will see what is floating about the shed, thanks again
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on October 19, 2021, 05:32:27 pm

No idea if e-cores would work better.  I've only used the torroids as they seemed to do the job.

Yesterday was the first cloudy day since I installed the additional 8 panels.  No clear sun all day.  Still managed to charge enough to offset daytime loads and keep batteries up for overnight.  That was the goal.  I'm happy so far.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: solarnewbee on October 19, 2021, 11:05:39 pm
I went a little nuts and put an E core on all 4 sets of wires. Purred like a kitten. Not that it had a chance to idle but I do think it cut down on losses and lowered base wattage. Now that I dumped money on a new inverter I’m kicking myself. 8010 board? Maybe. On to my own thread.

Keep up the good march doc!
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on October 20, 2021, 02:36:01 pm
Quote
I went a little nuts and put an E core on all 4 sets of wires.

I could easily be wrong but my understanding is it would make no difference to transformer temp or idle current putting them on the output side.  Do those on the output get hot under moderate to high load?
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on October 20, 2021, 04:42:30 pm
Hi Doc, from the little I have gleaned reading about chokes, is that they are there to filter out the high frequency component of the waveform developed by the electronics. Apparently they develop around 22kHz as well as the 50 or 60 Hz wave. While all the whizbangery goes on in the chips. Then the choke helps to filter out the high frequency bits.
So putting chokes on the output of the transformer would not make any difference if the input chokes have already done their job.
Cheers
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: noneyabussiness on October 21, 2021, 03:50:13 pm
oz in his early days of testing surmised that the primary side choke slowed the current rise when the mosfets turned on per switching cycle, why it made such a significant difference at idle... the transformer " sees " a cleaner 50hz cycle... ( very simplified) .. warpspeed worked out that if the choke was tuned to " 75hz " was optimum... the output chokes clockman uses as well mainly for noise suppression for sensitive electronics, which doesn't hurt, but not necessarily needed as the waveform coming from the eg8010 is usually much cleaner than the grid itself,  not completely useless but not completely necessary ether..

personally haven't used the output ones and never had issues with everything I run off it... which is everything.... been off grid for about 8 years now...
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on October 21, 2021, 04:53:30 pm
Hi Noneya, just wondering what chokes you have used on your 8010 boards.
I forgot to mention the capacitor too, the choke and the capacitor work together to filter.
I have just used the Powerjack transformers as they are. They seem to work fine so far.
I have not done a lot of testing though as my PowerJack 8kw blew up for a second time and I had to put the 8010 into service.
The PowerJack is now stripped down waiting for a new 8010  4kw board to arrive so it can be reborn as a spare.
Cheers
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: noneyabussiness on October 21, 2021, 05:35:49 pm
Oz insist that 2-3 turns on a ferrite toroidal core was sufficient for his setup... However as I said Warpspeed insisted the magic frequency of 75hz was the goal... there were many iterations using everything from laminate steel to ferrite to powdered iron core... all worked mostly...  personally gone with what Oz did originally and had no dramas .... but your mileage may vary ...

the output filter was another debate on what was best... again referring to the 2 people above ( I use them as they both have had the most success Ive read) oz used the original 4uf ( maybe it was 2uf, heck been a while) and never looked back, Warp actually spent some time in this and found each transformer had a specific resonance that worked better for different caps... think by memory his particular one used a 1.5uf ... Ill have to check but I used the original one that came with my board,  by memory 4uf ...

to be truly honest,  the fluctuations/ noise on the grid are tremendously worse than the output of these things... they are quite clean... just getting that sweet spot for idle current is the key
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on October 21, 2021, 08:56:33 pm
Thanks noneya for the information. So far mine has a pretty low idle current, quite a bit lower than the powerjack had, it is running great.
I did like you did, used the capacitors that came with the board. I have since put spacers under the transformer to allow better air flow, ( as per Doc) and this has made quite a difference to cooling.
So when the new board arrives I may experiment a bit more, I have a single transformer from an 8kw Powerjack ( I think of them as 2.5kw inverters really).
I will see how things go when it arrives. Of course coming from China things are very slow at the moment.
Thanks again
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on October 23, 2021, 12:19:51 am
Just wondering if any of you folk who use the 8010 boards have ever come across any data on adjusting them. I want to know the method of adjusting the current limiting.
So far the voltage settings seem to be fine, but sometimes on a larger load the inverter shuts down. I have to turn it off and then back on to get it to work again. So setting the current overload would be a good place to start
Cheers
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: noneyabussiness on October 23, 2021, 06:27:09 am
a quick google search for the datasheet will give you the voltage that it senses, by memory. 5 volts... you will need to remove the lm358 sensor ( too quick for a toroidal transformer, blows mosfets) and just simply add the resistance you need for the current you need ... eg .005 ohm will limit it to 100amp..
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: noneyabussiness on October 23, 2021, 06:29:19 am
bridge pin 8 to 7 and 1 to 4 will bypass the lm358
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on October 23, 2021, 04:25:11 pm
Thanks Noneya, I have removed the LM358. I am in the process now of looking at connections in my battery system. I took the Battery fuses out yesterday and cleaned the contacts and tightened bolts.
When my new inverter is built I am planning on moving it closer to the batteries.
I just have to work out a good place where the charging fumes wont damage the circuit boards.
My inverters are in my shed at the moment with about 3 metres of 180mm aluminium cable connecting them to heavy battery leads that are about 1.5 metres long.
I am going to plug in a big load and check for voltage drop. I have found a bit more information on the aliexpress boards, unfortunately all the manufacturers make different looking boards , the basic instructions seem the same though.
Thanks again for you help
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: lighthunter on October 24, 2021, 11:16:36 am
bridge pin 8 to 7 and 1 to 4 will bypass the lm358

I dont think a 358 exists on these boards but then maybe im overlooking something.

LM 393 perhaps you meant.

Dochubert posted a good photo for your question Pete.

I had external Interference with my overload current trip because its not isolated so it was unpredictable and i just removed it by folding pin 1 of the egs002 board. Since that time ive not had one bit of trouble with mine. Its already been far more reliable than any powerjack ive ever had. (2) + several rebuilt. I believe if youve removed the 393 and you play with adjustment of the pot labeled OL you will nail it.


Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: noneyabussiness on October 24, 2021, 02:43:18 pm
sorry , yes I ment the lm393 op amp
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on October 24, 2021, 04:50:41 pm
Thanks for the updated information. It was the 393 chip I removed, the inverter still played up a bit so i got rid of the op amp on the main board too. I did play with the overload yesterday so next time I try to use the bench oven I will know how it went.
Strange thing is I have a heat gun, it runs fine on full power but whatever they did to make it have a half power setting makes my inverters buzz and load up heaps. I am guessing that they have a triac in there to reduce the power, and it creates havoc.
No other tools have problems, it starts my air compressor instantly, runs all the other tools. So I think I will take the heat gun apart and disconnect the low power setting.
Thanks again for the help .
By the way not all the boards are the same, my board does not seem to have a short circuit adjustment pot, it just has three pots to adjust rather than 4.
It would be so nice if the manufacturers put out manuals for them but at the price they must figure it is not worth it.
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: rossw on October 24, 2021, 08:01:13 pm
Strange thing is I have a heat gun, it runs fine on full power but whatever they did to make it have a half power setting makes my inverters buzz and load up heaps. I am guessing that they have a triac in there to reduce the power, and it creates havoc.

A lot of them use a series-universal (brushed) motor which is perfectly happy with AC or DC.
Then for "half power" they just chuck in a diode so the heater and motor only get one half of each cycle. Cheap, nasty, effective.

The inverter however won't generally like having all the load on one half of the waveform only...
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on October 25, 2021, 01:00:47 am
Thanks Ross, I will have a look and see if it is just the cheap nasty diode speed control. If it is I can just by cut it out and have just one speed. That is all I need anyway.
Thanks
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on November 14, 2021, 01:36:54 pm
It's almost the middle of November and we're only getting sunny days about one in three.  The batteries are handling the overnight (small) loads rather well despite less sun than I would like, and ever shorter days too.  Had to go to grid power once overnight due to 4 days of straight clouds/rain. The battery bank was down to 51v at bedtime.  I didn't want to push it any lower. 
 Since then have stayed off grid, so happy about that.  The larger battery bank plus the added winter-only solar panels are doing the job.  This time last year I was switching to grid power nightly.  Eventually I will probably have to do that, but want to put it off as long as I can.
Still have some winter-only panels to add to the 24v water heating bank.  So far water heating has been ok despite the poor sun, but need to get those extra panels set up and contributing.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: solarnewbee on November 29, 2021, 09:34:43 pm
Have you considered a windmill in your future? I finally got mine up. It groans something terrible and is probably the bearings since it sat in our extra bedroom at 30c for 6 years and the grease may have settled and the bearing corroded. Next month I will rent scaffolding again and hunt down bearing. I’m only get at most 11v from a dual 3 phase generator so it can’t be moving as fast as it could be.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on November 30, 2021, 04:22:21 pm

Hi SN,
Windmills?  I have a couple.  One is mounted just over the shed.  Produces nothing.  I realize it should be higher but wanted to see if I could get anything before I put the work and expense into poles and guy wires.  Was so disappointing I never put any others up.  Sadly, there is almost no wind here about 99% of the time, then we get 60mph winds for a couple of days.  Just not worth it (at least here).  Hope you get your windmill working well!

I did get four more winter-only solar panels up and added to my 24v water heating battery bank.  They are making a difference on these short days.  Sometime in March I'll take down all the winter-only panels and store them until next October.  Angled for winter sun they will be useless in summer, and some of them will be in the way of pasture irrigation, which starts again in late March.

I'm having to switch to grid at times now.  Been very cloudy recently in addition to short days.  Switched to grid on Thanksgiving so the wife could cook without me worrying about batteries.  Using grid power in winter is inevitable but I still hate doing it.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on December 13, 2021, 12:15:02 pm
Rain and clouds now for days.  Been entirely on grid for several days now. Hate it!  I am able to continue heating water from solar but not enough to run the house.
Also those winds I just said we almost never get?  Been blowing like crazy for 2 days now and supposed to continue for several more.
Times like these I wish the windmills were up....
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on February 10, 2022, 07:00:04 pm

Almost the middle of Feb now and we're finally starting to get some partial sun.  I've been able to run the house during daytime hours all week (so far!).  The really gloomy days of winter makes me gloomy too.  Hoping they are mostly past for this year.  The days are already getting noticably longer.

I have been able to keep the water heating going on solar power exclusively all winter.  Couldn't do that last year so it has to be the larger battery bank plus the additional winter-only solar panels making the difference.  So I must have done something right.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: lighthunter on February 12, 2022, 08:11:02 am
Yes. Youve done a lot of work to your system, good job!😊 You did it at the right time as batteries have become quite expensive with the politicians planned shipwreck of the economy. We really dont worry about being "off grid", some parts of the year we are but not winter months. It would require a few lifestyle changes during cloudy stuff. Water or any heating with resistive elements is a huge challenge in the clouds. Not so much in sun, we saw over 6kw coming in the other day with 7kw of panels so yes sun is getting powerful.  Its great to see your work pay off. A bit of humor, a few of my co-workers were talkin about heating fuels and one guy who has all electric resistance heating in his home says, "you should burn coal like i do". 😂
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on February 12, 2022, 04:20:46 pm

Thanks LH,
We could all easily stay warm in winter if we could figure out how to tap the hot air all the politicians spout all the time.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on May 09, 2022, 09:00:46 pm

Today, the 9th of May, we had heavy snowfall that lasted hours.  I found myself at just past noon shoveling snow off of my solar panels. IN MAY!  I needed them today too, as grid power went down around 8am and didn't come back until sometime around 1pm.  We were already on battery/solar and have been since late March so I didn't realize the grid was down until my wife came home from her volunteer work at the library and told me.
Sometimes it's nice to be prepared for the worst.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on May 10, 2022, 02:39:28 am
Good to hear you are still about Doc. Seems the site is very quiet these days.
I am guessing that some of the old timers are no longer with us on this planet.
Just wondering whether you use Grid tie inverters as a mini grid.
I am thinking of using one I have in the shed ( we have no grid power) but just wanted to hear how others have got theirs to work and how they regulate the output into the batteries.
I am thinking of using a small charge regulator to measure the battery volts and to open a relay to disconnect the GTI from the main inverter output when the batteries are charged.
I did see some stuff that OZ was working on when he was about but never saw the end result. It is hard to get through all the iterations of the boards and circuits to see which one actually worked.
Anyway hope all goes well with snow shovelling, it is coming into winter here so we will have a bit of snow, we dont' get much though
Cheers
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on May 10, 2022, 10:09:25 am

Hi Pete,
I did try hooking a grid tie inverter to my powerjack, just to see how it would do.  Didn't go so far as building safety circuits to regulate it.  Just watched it closely.  Didn't have enough solar hooked to the grid tie to worry too much about.
Anyway, it worked ok, but seemed to me to make the system more complicated and possibly unstable than it needed to be.  I can power the house with the powerjack just fine, and it's (usually) trouble-free.
As for those safety cutouts, my understanding from those who tried it, was to not disconnect the gti from the powerjack, because when it re-connects you get the 5 minute startup delay of the gti.  Instead you interrupt the solar to the gti, which leaves it connected but not producing.  Same result but smoother operation with no 5 minute deadtime each time it throttles back.  Same as if clouds blocked your panels.
I think lighthunter did some work on those things, with good results.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Pete on May 10, 2022, 05:01:24 pm
Hi Doc, thanks for the reply. I am only adding the new panels because I got them really cheap. They are a backup for the times that we have heavy cloud cover.( which happen a bit here on the mountain). So far we have heaps of power but I just want to make sure that the batteries come up on cloudy days in winter too.
I read the article OZ put up about his GTI connection and also looked at his home made PWM controllers. Pity he is not around to quiz and get the rest of the story.
Take care
Pete
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on August 21, 2022, 04:09:10 pm

Had an odd failure yesterday...
Went into my 'power room' and about half of my voltage and temperature displays were off!  Inverter was running fine, batteries were charging, water heater was up to temp, but no indicators!

Turned out it was one of my (formerly) faithfull 12v dc-dc power supplies.  Oztules pointed me to them years ago for low cost, trouble free, reliable 12v from 48v power to power my controls and indicators.  I'm using 5 or 6 of them for various things.  They used to cost about $5 USD.  Just looked and the cheapest comparable I found is this one at about $7.50;

 https://www.ebay.com/itm/314046054255?hash=item491e9a7f6f:g:3nIAAOSwv8xdAjy9&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoGHzSpuJw3WGn2UOm4Gta7PZb%2FzQ8eyRBxJKqmnYsa1J0xZ%2BpmEVoxT1AIR56qypMD2NV8tDiqXN5pttfpf3o8LiA93PI0JAMxJpGOOZ2jlqt%2F3uRgkz9Tnhe71pJFZ66PDxgTPNu9msiB2UPkFOndsA4xQ4Gv8pSHJ3vDI9EZo0wImzFu9KMpzGNB1jp3KLZeiNKsBvcwj%2BgRdAHH0%2Bu9E%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-CL5aHYYA (https://www.ebay.com/itm/314046054255?hash=item491e9a7f6f:g:3nIAAOSwv8xdAjy9&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoGHzSpuJw3WGn2UOm4Gta7PZb%2FzQ8eyRBxJKqmnYsa1J0xZ%2BpmEVoxT1AIR56qypMD2NV8tDiqXN5pttfpf3o8LiA93PI0JAMxJpGOOZ2jlqt%2F3uRgkz9Tnhe71pJFZ66PDxgTPNu9msiB2UPkFOndsA4xQ4Gv8pSHJ3vDI9EZo0wImzFu9KMpzGNB1jp3KLZeiNKsBvcwj%2BgRdAHH0%2Bu9E%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-CL5aHYYA)

There are some without a enclosure for about $4.50 but they are differently built, and possibly not as stable.
The one that died looks like this;
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
It had been working for over five years. Not smoked so suppose the 12v regulator just quit. 
Interestingly, the new one I tried wouldn't work on my 24v bank like the old one had been doing, so had to power it off of my 48v bank.

So indicators and fan controls all working again.  Hopefully won't lose another one for five more years.  I have a couple more that have been operating for 3 or 4 years so will have to keep an eye on them....
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on November 06, 2022, 11:07:25 pm

Since there has been no activity since I last posted in late August, I guess I'm just posting for myself.  Oh well...

Had two straight days of no sun and rain.  Absolutely no charging all day so had to switch over to grid.  Bums me out even though I know I did well for the season.  Mid March to November 4 staying off grid 24/7.

Still looking for a way to produce enough power to stay off grid even in winter, but no luck so far.  I'm even revisiting some things I looked at (and discarded) years ago.  Over unity devices and such.  Mostly scams or at best someone succeeds in powering an led.  Whoo hoo!  Not usefull in the real world of charging a large battery bank like mine.

Tesla supposedly produced power from an antenna.  So did T.H. Moray.  Played with a couple of circuits I found with at best about 2.77v output.  There's that led again!  A couple more seem worth trying but not getting my hopes up.

High voltage pulse charging of batteries seems interesting, but looks to be something that would damage my inverter or other electronics if connected to my working battery bank.  So possibly a second 'auxilliary' battery bank kept charged with pulse charging that then runs a motor/generator set that in turn puts a charge into the large main battery bank.  Gives isolation but creates a lot of losses.  The pulse charging would have to produce enough to be worth the effort (and the losses).  If it could run a couple of hours at night to hold the main bank voltage above 52v overnight that would be enough.
I have a couple of dc motors out of treadmills to rig the motor/generator.  4 100ah gel batteries for the second 48v battery bank.  Easy enough to rig some controls to make it automatic.  Just need to produce enough to supplement my existing setup overnight and/or on cloudy days.  Who knows till I try it?

Haven't written off Bedini or Don Smith either but I'm no genius so taking some time to try and absorb the info.  The obvious answer is that if it was that simple, why isn't everybody doing it?  Tesla claimed it worked so it probably does (somehow!) 
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: bj on November 07, 2022, 03:54:08 am
   Doc---just to let you know that you aren't just posting for yourself.
   Personally, I think you've done pretty well.  Wife, myself, and this place are getting to an age
that all we can do is keep up with keeping things running.
   BJ
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on November 07, 2022, 10:53:00 am

Thanks Bj,
Not so young myself.  The time is coming when we won't be able to do the work to keep our place in shape.(already much slower getting done!) 
The increasing world troubles make it possible there might not even be a grid to switch to, let alone being able to afford to use it.  Sure wish I had a stream on my property.  Anyway, my quest to supplement my solar continues.

Remembering how active this forum was when Oz was teaching Powerjack (and all of us) how to build inverters.  Those were the days, eh?
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: David HK on November 07, 2022, 08:24:52 pm
I can echo  the previous sentiments.

I celebrated my 74th birthday a few days ago. There was no celebration as I would have liked.

We are still wearing face masks in Hong Kong.

I have virtually been imprisioned in my own home for four years:- 2019 had the riots and did not dare go out except for essential needs.

The years since 2020 January have been the same. Don't leave home except for essential needs such as food shopping, banking, doctor, dentist, other family related matters.

Some 15 years ago this website was a hive of activity.

Its interesting to speculate why young people have not inherited the renewable energy zeal to experiment and build their own generating equipment.


David

Hong Kong
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on November 09, 2022, 10:21:24 pm


Happy Birthday David!  Sorry to hear you are still dealing with the pandemic fraud.  One of the reasons we chose rural Idaho when we left commie california, was to be among people who simply ignored the 'mandates'.  Not everybody sadly.  I had to turn around and leave places where they required face diapers during the worst of it.  Luckily, it's pretty much gone around here now.  Crazy as it sounds, the holdouts are doctor's offices and hospitals.  Places where a thinking person would imagine sanity and common sense would prevail.  I'm so disillusioned with most doctors now that I'll be in trouble if I ever need one.  I don't think I'll ever trust one again considering they pretty much all went along with the obvious fraud.  Many, many people are dead or will die sometime soon or are permanently injured because those doctors went along with the fraud.  And I've said too much already.

I mentioned previously trying a couple experiments using an aerial to harvest power, with little success.  I have one more to try.  Tesla claimed it could be done and has a patent on a method. Looks like this;

[attach=1]

Snowed all day today so didn't get out there to try it.  Hoping to work on it tomorrow.  Also need to work on setting up the motor/generator set to provide isolation to protect the batteries and inverter.  Not helping myself if I blow out my inverter.

Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on November 11, 2022, 07:00:28 pm

Ok, now that I've stuck my neck out there and said I'm going to try the Tesla experiment, I find I'm kinda stuck.  :-[  The metal plate, no problem.  The transformer, I have a couple to try.  That vibrating switch, which I hardly glanced at before, is something else again. 
Seemed simple at first glance.  I'm an old electrician, not an electronics whiz.  The best thing I could think of was a rotating magnet and a reed switch.  Not very practical.
I have a ne555 relay, but it stays on too long to be useful.

Any suggestions appreciated.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: David HK on November 12, 2022, 04:58:13 pm
If you are as old as I am just give up the idea.

I have been working on a project for 26 years to design and build the finest combined all stainless steel roasting spit and BBQ in the whole of Hong Kong.

There are many accessories such as the circular dining table, BBQ forks with unusual capacities, scissors lift for high and low level, a Lazy Susan for the dining table, a cheese board to fit inside the Lazy Susan, four levelling legs that are a sight for mechanical engineers to behold, modified Bain Maries, a rotisserie, and much more.

This week I made four stainless steel S hooks to hold the support framework elements for the weather cover to sit on when the BBQ is in use.

How stupid of me not to have made these simple things years ago.

On Friday last I spend some delightful hours cleaning my work and yesterday (Saturday) my wife, daughter and I had a delayed BBQ to celebrate my recent birthday.

The good news is that I have I run out of useful ideas for new things and the entirety is only in the prototype stage at the moment.

Forgo your latest project, take a rest, and have a BBQ.

David

A couple of seven year old photographs are attached.





Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on November 15, 2022, 10:44:06 pm

Thanks David,
I'll have to put the project on hold until I can come up with an oscillating switch anyway.  I have plenty of other projects I can work on in the meantime.
BBQ does sound pretty good!

We have managed to stay off grid for the last several days (since the snow days) since there's been enough sun.  That's something anyway.  Will have to start switching to grid overnight soon though.  Days are getting short.

Today I painted lamps for my wife, cut and split firewood, cleaned out a rain gutter, worked on cleaning up the back shed and repaired the cord on a heater (cat chewed it).  Enough for one day.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Wolvenar on January 18, 2023, 01:30:27 pm
David HK

<rant>
I'll partially answer that question about young people.
Because schools have taught them to not step out of line, be a good little consumer.
Why would anyone need to know more than the minimal skill needed for their desired trade?
Are we all supposed to spend our time only on social media, and legacy media where we can be told what to do and what to think?
etc
</rant>
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on July 20, 2023, 04:46:13 pm

Hi to anyone still reading here,

All is relatively quiet in Southern Idaho.  Solar and powerjack inverter are working flawlessly 24/7.  Height of summer so plenty of power.

Winter and those short, poor sunshine days are on my mind.  I'm considering a "range extender" type small generator that puts out 48-60 volts dc at about 50a(that's what is claimed anyway).  If the grid is down in winter, I might be able to keep the batteries up enough to get by (with frugal power usage!).

Don't want to get ahead of myself on this, but I am working on a way to produce power without sun, wind, or hydro that looks promising.  I've tried some 'out there' ideas previously without success, but this idea uses off the shelf components in ways I don't think anybody else has tried, with the goal of charging my battery bank in winter.  When I have something concrete I will post it far and wide, starting right here.  Then people smarter than me can improve and spread it all over so nobody tries to make me disappear. 

I like being invisible but don't want to be gone entirely....
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: bj on July 26, 2023, 05:23:51 am
Hey Doc
From one who still reads, thanks for sharing
BJ
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Wolvenar on August 05, 2023, 10:03:40 pm
I'm of course still here but life has been stupid busy like normal.

Hey if it actually works great, if it don't let us know why.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on August 11, 2023, 07:54:52 pm

This is the first day in more than a week that I could access this site.  Got the 'Site not available - Try again?' message.  Tried both my computers. 

Glad it's back!  Happened the same way a couple of years ago, and when I mentioned it here, nobody else seemed to have the problem so can't explain it.

Ghosts?  Gremlins?

Oh well glad it's back.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Wolvenar on August 13, 2023, 11:34:09 am
Sorry we have had multiple severe storms lately, it took down the system a couple times.
I wasn't home the last time for a couple of days. I had to get someone to go get things online the last time.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on August 15, 2023, 07:23:14 pm
Sorry we have had multiple severe storms lately, it took down the system a couple times.

No worries here!  I'm just glad it's not another mystery (or me having delusions!)  You do a great job of keeping things running.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on September 11, 2023, 04:45:42 pm
My latest addition to my inverter collection just arrived.
An EG4 6000ex-48HV.  It's a split phase 240/120vac, 48vdc input low frequency model that includes a charge controller.  The charge controller will take up to 500vdc (open circuit) input for 48v battery charging.

[attach=1]

Have to prepare the mounting spot, then get it mounted before I can hook up and test.  Hopefully soon.  Have to finish a tub to shower conversion first (taking forever!)
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: bj on September 12, 2023, 04:27:24 am
    Yes, plumbing does seem to take a while.  For me as well.
    Will keep an eye out for your test results.
BJ
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on September 26, 2023, 06:59:48 pm


Finally got the wall re-coated with emulsion and the mounting boards attached.  Mounted the inverter this morning.  Battery cables I have not long enough so ordered cable.
Good thing I'm not in a hurry.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: bj on September 27, 2023, 03:03:01 am
  I have found being in a hurry just costs more.
  You are making progress, and that's what counts.
BJ
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: Wolvenar on September 30, 2023, 10:22:29 pm


Finally got the wall re-coated with emulsion and the mounting boards attached.  Mounted the inverter this morning.  Battery cables I have not long enough so ordered cable.
Good thing I'm not in a hurry.
Looking good!
I'm following as I can lately. Life has been NUTS since the coof, (COVID). Time is expensive, and its hard to buy more.

I'm hoping to put an upgrade to my inverter into place soon, but it's an older PSW and HEAVY.
Luckily it is in the garage, so I can use some hydraulics to help with that.
We have been going all in on upgrades, batteries, MPPT, a lot of home made controllers etc.
I'll be documenting here soon.
Title: Re: Going off-grid in Idaho
Post by: dochubert on October 03, 2023, 10:46:14 am
Quote
I'm hoping to put an upgrade to my inverter into place soon

I'm really hoping this EG4 is an upgrade.  I've heard good things about them but this is my first try of one.
Got it hooked up and powered up successfully, but no outputs connected so no loads on it yet.
Soon I hope.