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Project Journals => User Journals => Bryan => Topic started by: Bryan1 on July 14, 2012, 10:36:09 pm

Title: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: Bryan1 on July 14, 2012, 10:36:09 pm
G'day Guy's,
                    Well with all this talk about motor conversions it time for me to start a log of my 4kw motor conversion which will be done in the true Zubbly(RIP mate) fashion.

A few years ago when I was repairing gearbox's I found a good donor motor being a 4kw flange mount WEG motor

[attachimg=1]

The original windings were shot so I decided a total rewire is on the cards

[attachimg=2]

Here is the motor with the new insulating paper ready for the the installing the 1 wire for the first test.

[attachimg=3]

Now I decide to machine up a new mag rotor out of solid steel stock and an old Warman pump shaft was the donor material. As the Neo mag's are to be on a 10 degree skew I counterbored a seat for each magnet so they could sit in the right position. Now getting 22 N50 grade 16x13mm neo's to sit side by side was a daunting task and I only broke 1 magnet doing all 4 poles.

Here is a pic before the magnets were put on

[attachimg=4]

First pole installed and epoxied in, I just made some fences out of some perspex and used some 100 mile an hour tape to form the fences until the epoxy went off.

[attachimg=5]

Here is a pic with all the poles on and the next step is the final epoxy coat so the magnets are fully sealed and i'll machine the OD for a 1mm gap.

[attachimg=6]


Now for the tower I scored a heap of brandnew hydraulic pipe for a couple of cartons of beer. The pipe is 3" with the wall thickness a tad under a 1/4". As I have 6 lengths I reckon I'll go 2 sections for the tower and one for the gin pole then I'll have enough for 2 towers as this motor conversion disease is terminal.....

[attachimg=7]

Here is closeup pic of the pipe

[attachimg=8]

Now for the new wire I do have a couple of spools of 14awg (1.6mm) wire and as I'll going for a 24 volt system I'm hoping I can go atleast 2 inhand with the wire.

Next weekend I'll take a couple more pic's of the final epoxy pour as this bug is now getting itchy to say the least, it has been close to 2 years sofar since I started this and it is time to get it finished and into the air just so Murphy(that great guy) can supply enough wind to keep the house batteries charged.

Cheers Bryan

Note: only 5 pale ale stubbies were consumed doing this post

Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: tomw on July 14, 2012, 11:34:26 pm
Bryan;

Looking good, bud. That fully populated magnet rotor looks lethal.

I can see why you had a bit of a tussle shoehorning them in so close.

Waiting for the follow ups.

Did you fab up a coil winder or have one?

Somewhere in my files I have a drawing of a "cone head" coil winder that Zubbly (RIP) passed along. Here, let me find it:

(http://pics.ww.com/d/394685-1/coneheaddimensions_3.jpg)

And some photos of his he posted:

(http://pics.ww.com/d/394651-4/conehead1.JPG)

(http://pics.ww.com/d/394655-4/conehead10.JPG)

(http://pics.ww.com/d/394657-1/conehead2.JPG)

(http://pics.ww.com/d/394661-4/conehead3.JPG)

(http://pics.ww.com/d/394665-4/conehead4.JPG)

(http://pics.ww.com/d/394669-4/conehead5.JPG)

(http://pics.ww.com/d/394673-4/conehead6.JPG)

(http://pics.ww.com/d/394675-1/conehead7.JPG)

(http://pics.ww.com/d/394679-4/conehead8.JPG)

(http://pics.ww.com/d/394683-4/conehead9.JPG)

He claimed this is the way to do coils for conversions, anyway.

Adjustable length simple to operate.

Just in case you might want to mock one up if you are going to build lots of rewound conversions. I have all of Zubbly's Fieldlines files archived over here if interested:

http://pics.ww.com/v/TomW/FLRescues/Zubbly/ (http://pics.ww.com/v/TomW/FLRescues/Zubbly/)

Glad I did now since JW lost a LOT the old FL stuff by his ignorance and, apparently its not important. Its not the dual rotor air core they like I guess.

Anyway, I got them all over there. Actually, I think I got everyone's files just before the meltdown but where they are stashed on CD I don't know.

Tom
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: Wolvenar on July 14, 2012, 11:55:37 pm
We have an archive here also that Zubbly himself uploaded.

http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery2/main.php/v/zubbly/ (http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery2/main.php/v/zubbly/)
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: Bryan1 on July 14, 2012, 11:58:47 pm
Thanks Tom,
                     I just had a quick look at Zubbly's files and now I'll have hours of working out the correct way to rewire this motor.

Cheers Bryan
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: Wolvenar on July 15, 2012, 12:01:40 am
Very nice  work and write up Bryan!!

I have a 30 something HP i may do someday in the future, but I really need to get my last one up and doing some work first.
I'll be watching how this turns out before taking on the big one myself.

I cannot remember what the largest motor zubbs did, and Im not sure if and where there is a point of diminishing return, and troubles with these.

Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: hiker1 on July 15, 2012, 02:03:44 am
nice job bryan.......
try some --epoxy stick---to seal inbetween the mags and poles...it makes for one solid rotor..
it cures rock hard and can take heat as well...ive used it on my rotors  great stuff..
the mags really do stay put--had to take a chisle and hammer to a old rotor just to get the mags off!!
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: oztules on July 15, 2012, 02:05:19 am
Thats quite a project.
If I can find the jig I built to do concencentric winding, I'll take photos for you (if your going to go concentric coils)

It is just a piece of 2" think pineboard, with holes drilled for 4" nails. The nails are spaced (romovable) for the three different sized coils for a single concentric pole, and make it dead easy to wind and fill...... hopefully I didn't toss it after making the last motor rewind (415v three phase not mill) Zubs diamond heads were too fancy for me to build, when it was just as easy to do it with nails and wood.

Keep it going.



...................oztules
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: Bryan1 on July 15, 2012, 02:28:51 am
G'day Guy's,
                     Since it was feb last year when I did the mags on the rotor too much time has past for this ol' foggy brain to remember so going back to square 1. Using a lamination I pulled from the motor so I can workout spacing etc, the pole width of each on is just under 5 coil spans where reading Zub's files for a 36 tooth stator 6 coil spans is the ideal. Off memory 6 wouldn't workout so thats why I went 5. Now I do think i can do a 8-10-12 concentric winding on this and bring all 12 wires out so I can try all combinations.

                   Hiker, the reason I just epoxy is so I can machine down the excess in my lathe in order to try and keep the rotor all balanced the best I can and I won't be putting any filler compound in the the final coat will be clear so the tops of the magnet will still be able to see.

                Oz, mate if you can find that jig or do some pencil cad it would be great mate...

Cheers Bryan
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: tomw on July 15, 2012, 07:38:42 am
Wolvenar asked me to relocate these files "lost" in the other sites meltdown.

Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: tomw on July 15, 2012, 07:43:57 am
And these. I did not proof read them and it seems there was a problem with one or 2 of them formatting wise. Enjoy!
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: tomw on July 15, 2012, 07:53:16 am
Bryan;

Sorry to jack your thread but it is semi topical.

Wolv;

Could you stick these someplace safe and where folks can easily find them. Thanks.

Tom
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: oztules on July 16, 2012, 03:25:09 am
Peg board with 6 coils made for 2 pole generator
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
here you can see the attempt at "diamond head stuff.... but stuff it
[attachimg=3]

Put the inner 4 pegs in first... wind that one then the second one etc etc.... use on hand turned winder or mechanical one.... easy peasy

The last photo shows the poor attempt at quasi diamond head...... It worked.... but the peg board was better.



.............oztules
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: Bryan1 on July 16, 2012, 06:11:15 am
G'day Oz,
                I did have to take a few look and get that grey matter working but the light bulb finally lit up on that idea and gotta say it worth a shot. It will definitely be easy doing it that way for the 1 wire test and as I do have 2 off 5 kg spools of that 14 awg magnet wire there is plenty of room for a stuffup.

                On Friday I am getting the epoxy resin and if time does permit I'll get the 1 wire set in the motor so it's already for the big scary challenge of inserting the mag rotor into the motor. Now the idea I have for that, I have a G size warman pump spindle here that must weight about 400kg's so I'll turn that on it's end and machine down one end cover to suit the motor. Then I'll drill and tap some holes in for clamping the motor to it then lower the mag rotor down with my 1 ton chain block. I reckon when I do get to that task it may be worth having the missus ready with my galaxy smart phone taking a HD vid in case there is a classic stuffup. anyway it will be an interesting clip none the less.

Cheers Bryan 
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: Wolvenar on July 16, 2012, 06:54:32 am
Bryan,
I use a cherry picker/engine hoist to remove and insert the rotor on my conversion.
It seriously takes down the stress level, and makes it MUCH less dangerous to the machine, and man.


Build up a mount for the housing/stator to hold that steady to the forward legs, and you can use a simple chain on the rotor so it is maneuverable. Make sure there is room under the housing to accommodate the shaft length and you should be good to go.

Hope this helps, if you have not worked this one out for yourself.

Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: Bryan1 on July 19, 2012, 09:50:51 pm
G'day Guy's,
                    Well got a bit more done this morning and got the final mold all setup and in place to epoxy it in tonight. I used 12mm perspex for the end plates and machined them up so they are both a neat sliding fit on the shaft journals and the shell is an old spice jar. The end plates are a slight press fir on the shell so no leakage will occur when I pour the epoxy in. I used a can of open gear spray to grease the inside so the epoxy won't stick to the mold.

[attachimg=1]


I Drilled 2 holes for pouring and drilled 2 small holes for air pockets


[attachimg=2]

I'm off down the hill soon to get the epoxy and do my tax and tonight when I get home before the first ale I'll pour the epoxy.

Cheers Bryan
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: Wolvenar on July 20, 2012, 12:46:54 am
If you havent poured yet.. I wonder if something to vibrate or shake it a bit while pouring may help with trapped air ( mine had a couple spots)
That is if you confident in the mold holding well..
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: Bryan1 on July 20, 2012, 04:34:33 am
G'day Wolv,

                  With the 4 holes in the top end plate and I'll pour in very slowly hopefully no air bubbles will occur. Now I went searching for that company I got the epoxy off before only to find the site is now a car park and I went to a servo to look in the yellow pages for other suppliers. The mob I rang are the biggest plastics mob in the state and I was told i would be lucky to find ANY 2 part epoxy in the state as it all had to come from vic as a special order.

                 Anyway as this last pour will be continuous and one solid mass I'm just going to use fiberglass. I do know and have been told that fiberglass won't stick to epoxy but as I said above I can't see any problems using it. If anyone has major concerns just say so.

Cheers Bryan
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: Wolvenar on July 20, 2012, 11:41:38 am
Seen quite a few documented cases of fiberglass resin failing over the years reading the other sites..
I guess I wouldn't try it myself.
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: Bryan1 on July 20, 2012, 04:56:13 pm
Wolv,
        Last year I made a heating coil for my etching tank out of epoxy and found the epoxy went soft on me around 80C. Now with those 84 off N50 neos and the chance of the genny going into a runaway I am worried about overheating. Today I will ring around and see if I can source some high temp epoxy and that stator I made for the mini is going thru a heat test. I'll cut a bit off and put it in the oven at 130C and see if if it breaks down. My mate who is a blacksmith is in the same boat trying to get some coke for his forge, no-one in the state stocks coke anymore and it will cost a bomb to get a truck load over from interstate.

     Also today I'll be finding out when those traction batteries will be turning up so now this 4kw motor conversion has become an urgent job as I'm sure everything this 4kw can throw out that 24 volt 700AH bank will soak it up and still want more. I have some 1 metre lengths of pine so a 2 metre blade set will be made in the next few days and i'll throw a F&P genny up for the duration until the 4kw is  finished.

Cheers Bryan
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: rossw on July 20, 2012, 05:40:39 pm
I'm sure everything this 4kw can throw out that 24 volt 700AH bank will soak it up and still want more.

I wouldn't like to hit a 700AH bank with more than about 70 to 100A.

At 24V, you're looking at 40A per kW, so 160 amps odd at 4kW and who knows how much at peaks.
It'll certainly drive the volts up on your batteries, I'd be thinking pretty hard about how you're going to tame it.
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: tomw on July 20, 2012, 08:48:23 pm
My mate who is a blacksmith is in the same boat trying to get some coke for his forge, no-one in the state stocks coke anymore and it will cost a bomb to get a truck load over from interstate.


Cheers Bryan

Bryan;

Isn't coke just coal made into charcoal? IE: heat it in an air starved environment until the volatiles boil Away. Result is basically pure carbon. I used to make charcoal for melting aluminum and seem to recall that coke is coal based charcoal from my researching charcoal making?

For all I know coal is even harder to find there?

Just thinking out loud.


Tom
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: rossw on July 20, 2012, 09:37:05 pm
Isn't coke just coal made into charcoal? IE: heat it in an air starved environment until the volatiles boil Away. Result is basically pure carbon. I used to make charcoal for melting aluminum and seem to recall that coke is coal based charcoal from my researching charcoal making?

Charcoal is very soft, fragile, delicate stuff.
Coke seems to be much harder, more resiliant stuff.
I too thought it was coal "cooked" in an oxygen-poor oven similar to charcoal, but there's something to make it tougher, harder. I also recall that coke seems to be "pockmarked" - whereas charcoal seems not to be.

Hmm, some research http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coke_%28fuel%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coke_%28fuel%29) says:
"Coke is the solid carbonaceous material derived from destructive distillation of low-ash, low-sulfur bituminous coal. Cokes from coal are grey, hard, and porous."
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: Bryan1 on July 27, 2012, 07:41:54 pm
G'day Guy's,
                    Well after trying to find 2 part high temp epoxy over is like trying to find a virgin in a whorehouse..... so due to impatience and lack of $$$$ I went ahead and did the final pour using fiberglass. I cut up some glass mate and mixed it in the resin and man it was fun getting in the holes but time persisted and in the end it took about a litre of resin. This morning I couldn't wait to get the mold off and see if I made a huge stuffup but it turned out pretty good I reckon. There isn't any air pockets around the magnets and only one air pocket at the top which I'll machine off. I measured the OD and it's 0.2mm bigger so a light lick in the big lathe will set the gap and true it up.

[attachimg=1]

              Anyway now i got those 1000AH traction batteries this project has become pretty urgent so for now I'm just going to use the PTO on my Fiat tractor for power and I'll look for an old lister for the drive long term. For me to build a tower, buy and run heavy cable over 100 metres it will take 6 numbers in lotto just to afford it so hopefully I can find an old lister and run it on vege and sump oil.

Cheers Bryan
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: Bryan1 on July 28, 2012, 07:45:59 pm
G'day Guy's,
                     Well got the one wire all installed and wired up for the first test which will be one delta. Pouring down rain here so next jobbie is getting rid of all the metal swarf off the big lathe so I can machine the magnet rotor and get that 1mm clearance.

For winding the coils I just had to use that patented Oztules nail method and I gotta say it worked a treat.

[attachimg=1]


Here a pic of my first attempt at wiring a motor for the one wire test and I will taking the motor to a rewind shop for the final wind as somethings are best done by the experts.

[attachimg=2]


Hopefully the sun will be out later to give my shed bank a bit of a charge and when I do the test I'll have a go at making my first movie and stick it up on youtube.

Cheers Bryan
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: Wolvenar on July 29, 2012, 02:59:36 am
Bryan, after a short time of practice rewinding these motors is rather less trouble than you might think.

I've done countless rewinds.. like this trolling motor refit..
I changed the voltage, and went from copper clad to full copper.
This added a LOT of available power, so I changed out the prop to make use of it.
Yeah it might be non standard in how its wound, but it was something zubbs said should work for this particular application to make the winding all fit easier. It was a tad thicker wire, and  few more turns each. This was first dipped in epoxy a  couple times to replace the need for cardboard insulators etc, then again after it was wound.
Yup another one of my Zubbly guided adventures, and it worked (works) fantastic.

Sorry I guess I didn't get the best of pictures back then.
(http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=856&g2_serialNumber=2)(http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=838&g2_serialNumber=2)
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: Bryan1 on July 29, 2012, 08:13:08 pm
G'day Guy's,
                    This morning dod a big cleanup on the lathe and machined down the mag rotor, man it was fun as the first cut went to dig in but luckily caught it in time. In the end I wound up the dial to 100hz and put on a quick feed rate and held onto the tailstock with both arms. I finished it off with some emery cloth and got the size down to 113.5mm which is a 1.5mm gap(0.60").

[attachimg=1]

                  The next jobbie is making up a fixture to hold the motor secure so I can easily put the rotor in & out then it's ready for the single wire test.( changed one to single as not to confuse Ross).

Cheers Bryan
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: bj on July 29, 2012, 09:15:51 pm
Turned down nice Bryan.  As long as you keep the rev's below 10,000, should hold fine. ;D
Title: Re: 4kw Motor Conversion
Post by: Bryan1 on August 03, 2012, 10:46:01 pm
G'day Guys,
                    Well got into it this morning and installed the mag rotor into the motor and did the single wire test.

Here's a pic of the setup, I used the lifting jib on my Fiat tractor and my 1 ton chain block to lower it in. The barrel is a 'G' sized Warman pump Bearing housing and weighs about 400Kg's +. As it turned out the hole in the end cover is about 2mm bigger than the locating flange on the motor and I sat the motor on some RHS and just had the bolts finger tight.

[attachimg=1]

Heres a pic of the rotor in place.

[attachimg=2]

Now the tapped hole in the end of the shaft is M16 and I only had a M12 eyebolt so a quick jobbie in the lathe to drill and tap a M12 hole in a M16 bolts did the trick.

[attachimg=3]

Now onto the single wire test.....

I did the test at 200rpm and the rotor has no signs of cogging at all.

One Delta

[attachimg=4]

Two Delta

[attachimg=5]

One Star

[attachimg=6]

Two Star

[attachimg=7]

I reckon going One Delta will be the go so with 0.9232 volts @ 200rpm works out to
0.9232 / 1.73 = 0.533641618/ 200 =0.002668208 volt per rev.
Now for a 200rpm cutin 25 volts /(000266208 x 200) = 46.847921901
So 47 turns should give 25 volts @ 200rpm.

Now I can take the motor to the rewind shop and depending on the slot fill i may be able to use thicker wire than the 14awg I have here.

Cheers Bryan