Electric Fence Zapper

[MadScientist267]

That's one gnarly gadget Oz

Can tell just looking at it that it's certainly not a toy of any kind whatsoever.

Steve

[dalek]

Oztules,

Thanks for the above.  The attached schematic now contains your recommended revision regarding the Triacs connecting to the anodes of the diodes.

I expect your bored stiff with looking at this circuit, but would you mind giving it the once over again for correctness.

<<SNIP>>

Dave

I ran up on this thread earlier today.  I want everyone to know that I lost some sleep over this because I just had to read the WHOLE thing.  lol  I'm planning to build one of these, as mean and ugly as I can get it.  Just to be sure, is the schematic/circuit diagram located in this post the final and correct one? 

http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,731.msg7836.html#msg7836 

That link should scroll to the post but if not, it is post number 70 by David HK.   It contains a image of the circuit and is page 8 for default forum settings.  I went backwards through the thread and that was the last image I saw.  I just want to be sure so I don't start a fire or get electrocuted one.   We have wild hogs headed our way and from what I have read, it takes a mean fence charger to educate them.  They may be stupid at first but I plan on them having a college degree after just one shock.  ;-) 

Thanks to all who did a LOT of work on this.  This will be fun. 

[Dario]

Thanks Oztules for all data you share with us.
i already did schematic from your 240v - trippler version and i will post it so you can see if there are errors.
i will also make PCB design in Eagle CAD but it will be similar to yours since you allready manage to put all components and use only single layer pcb.
What kind of insulation did you use to isolate high voltage transformer layers? Mylar,Kapton tape ??

[oztules]

Standard transformer paper.

Usually get 40 or so turns of the 1mm wire per layer, then more paper etc.

So 5 or 6 layers will get close enough.

The primary is two in hand 1.8.....stay with heavy wire for this, as this impedance is critical for max voltage and power transfer... poor as it is.

This type of transformer has served well over here in marine conditions for a decade or so across  dozens of units... simple and works.
I originally potted the whole transformer in epoxy, but now just do the coil, and spill the rest over the laminates... seems to do just as well.

If your designing your own board layout, keep the cap terminals very close to their driven elements... as the current is intense at those points from the cap to the tranny, and the cap to the triacs. Reinforce the board between the cap terminal and the triacs, and the triacs output to the inductor and out put terminal. You want the triacs to see the current evenly as possible, or the one closest to the cap or the load will fail first... beefing up the tracks works for this.

As you will have found from the circuit, it is the same as the 12v unit, but uses a doubler or in this case a trippler to get the dump voltage.
The little 1uf is there for timing and for current sourcing for the triac/scr. if you remove the inductor, the voltage will rise, but the pulse will narrow and the triacs will be under more pressure. experiment with this if you want to get different results re: RFI and transmission.

The addition of a nano or similar micro  and a mosfet, can easily make it intelligent. .... ie use the fet to switch off the voltage climb where ever you want so you don't have to give the biggest bang all the time.... monitor the output, and the micro can drive more voltage or less voltage to the storage cap depending on fence load... and the micro can trigger at a reliable setable pulse ... without changing components to get the balance between voltage and time exact.

I will get around to this soon ( he said), as for a few dollars we can get a fancy unit as good as the expensive units and better... including voltage read out or led ladder indicator, .so we can see the fence loading at any time, and can set an alarm if the load is getting too high, and needs amelioration... or there is a fence short..... time is the problem.


.............oztules

[Dario]

Oz. Here is schematic Made from your pcb, when you have time take a Look if you see any mistakes.
After you confirm i will put it into CAD.
Thanks

[oztules]

The little 1uf 50v cap at the diac is in the wrong place. It must do two things.
1. it helps stabalise the timing of the voltage build up for the trigger to the diac... it is part of the RC timing.
2. the circuit will not trigger unless enough current is available to trigger the triacs.... and the stored energy in the cap has the necessary joules to do this too.

Without the cap in the right place, the 3 x 1m resistors will not have the current available to turn on the triac........, which is current driven... so put it in front of the diac, not on the triac side.
The triacs are now TYN1225  ( 25A 1200v) for the trippler... didn't change the pcb as I don't use it for values generally..... left over form the original doubler of 600v.




..........oztules

[Dario]

This is after 1 hour in Eagle Cad..
maybee some final touch in design but it is 98% copy of Oztules Pcb design :-)
I am not sure should i use classic laminat like old EI core transformer or go for ferrite stick as main core of HV transformer??
Any sugestion OZ ??
Thanks

[oztules]

Looks the part I reckon, maybe just thicken up the triac tracks a fraction more... ie more real estate added to the bottom of the board, and thicken up the middle track of the triacs, so there is room for some copper and solder there to the heavy currents it will have.

I like it.

Transformer laminate is the go for the power transformer.. or rusty 4 inch nails etc etc.

................oztules

[dalek]

Question.  I'm thinking of using a 120 volt/18 volt with a 9 volt center tap hooked in reverse to build the 12 volt to higher voltage part of the circuit.  I have a bit of oztules in me and that is one that I have a couple of around here.  Plus, I'm building one for my neighbor who has a heart condition and I really don't want to build a very powerful one for him.   I figure I will get around 130 to 140 volts DC out of this, given a few losses here and there.  With the capacitor I plan to use, 47uf, I figure that will give me about .5 joules.  Given a few losses here and there, about .3 or .4 at the output.  Right now he is using a little solar store bought thing that is around .04 joules or so, already got shocked by it twice.   Anyone see a reason this wouldn't work fairly well? 

Also, I live in the USA.  Is anyone that is able to make the circuit board for a reasonable price willing to make a few, maybe a dozen depending on price, and sell them to me and ship them here?  I'm not in a huge hurry for this.  I'd rather a fellow electronic geek have some fun and make a few extra bucks than to pay out the rear for some company to do it plus they can make a couple for themselves or even others while at it.  I don't have all the stuff to print my own.   I may would want a change or two but I think someone here has already designed one that would work.  I'd like to have as many slots for the triacs as I can for when I build the monster one.  Maybe a dozen or so slots.  As I said, I'm not in a huge hurry so if it takes a bit to make and shipping from where ever takes a bit, that's fine.  I have a paypal account that should gives us both some confidence.  If needed, someone can PM me with the info.   I think David had one with the extra triac slots.

Thanks to oztules and David for all the work done on this.  This is a much better design than any other circuit I have found elsewhere.  Add in that you can customize it to suite your own power needs, it is a awesome circuit. 

[rossw]

For $insignificant you can send your gerbers to any number of people in China and get back a bunch of professional, double-sided boards with silkscreen and through-hole plating and all the holes drilled perfectly... it'll cost you a couple of weeks (if you're like me, that just means you get different projects done).

For what it's worth - I no longer bother to "prototype" stuff using veroboard or even those plug-in prototyping things. It's actually cheaper to design the board and send it off than it is to muck about trying to verboard, and they make double-sided boards, with solder resist and silkscreens and drill all the holes and put the feedthroughs in for about what it used to cost me for double-sided PCB blanks! It's a no-brainer.

[dalek]

I looked around for a company that does small quantities of boards but most were pretty pricey.  I guess the setup is what makes it so much.  Anyway, I have seen a couple on here that would work and thought maybe someone here would like to make a few and sell them.  Maybe even make a few bucks and others may want some too.

I'm a Linux user.  I found some PCB software but so far, I can't figure out how to make it do anything.  It's like something is missing or I can't find the needed parts to make it work.  Years ago, I just designed them myself on the board with those little things you pencil on and draw on with a marker.  Now, I don't even have any etch solution or anything to start with.  Plus, my eyes are not what they used to be even with glasses. 

So, I can't get my software to work.  Designing my own the old school way won't work either.  Best I can come up with, hope someone is willing to make a few and sell them.  Heck, they may find a few others wanting to do the same. 

Of course, I could try those little breadboard type boards.  I have used those before but the currents may be a bit much for that.  The copper traces on those are thin. 

[rossw]

I looked around for a company that does small quantities of boards but most were pretty pricey.  I guess the setup is what makes it so much.

Just as an example.... this is NOT what I'd call a "good example" just the first one I found:




These were $0 setup, and I think $40 for *twenty* of these....

Years ago, I just designed them myself on the board with those little things you pencil on and draw on with a marker.  Now, I don't even have any etch solution or anything to start with.

Yeah, I used to do boards, and photo-reduction, and create reverse film, and expose, develop and etch, then drill, and you know what? It'd take half a day to make a single board. This way, I can design a board, with very fine tracks if I need them, and silkscreen, and solder-resist, and as many holes and feedthroughs as I want, and just send it off and have them come back all made, cut and done...

[dalek]

If no one else is interested in making me some, I will PM you for a link to them.  That's not bad really.  Still, if I can pay someone like David to do it and him either make a few bucks off it or be able to make a few more for others and really help several of us, I'd rather do that.  I can't even get the software I have to make the layout to send in to get them made.  It may be that David would rather send me the files and me then send them off to be made.  Of course, another member may be willing to do this too.   If I do that and can afford it, I may make some extras for others that want them here in the USA too.   Whatever works. 

I wouldn't mind having a dozen or so, just to have some spares in case I need them.  Given where I live, I may end up building a few of these of various sizes for a friend or two, likely more.  Those wild hogs are working our way and they are hard to teach a lesson about where not to go.  As I posted before, I plan to build me a charger that will take a high school drop out hog and make a it into a college educated critter when it comes to a electric fence. 

I'll see what comes along.  Whatever gets me some boards will be fine with me.  If I can get some to help a few other people to, bonus. 

[oztules]

read this : http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1088.0.html

the protel pcb is here

 trippler.PCB (20 kB - downloaded 492 times.)

Your calcs are wrong, you will fry your little power transformer. 1/2 ( E^2 x C ) is the energy, your 110v is actually 150v X 3 so 450 x 450 x .000047/2=5 joules.... thats a lot released in short time

Read the link above to the story I wrote yesterday, and it has 25uf@640v or 640x640x25/2=5 joules..... look at the figures on the HV tester... way over 100000 watts, over 10000 volts and over 17 amps.... you can do a lot with 5 joules if you try.

Dario in another thread has the eagle pcb too.   http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,731.msg10716.html#msg10716


..............oztules

[dalek]

read this : http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1088.0.html

the protel pcb is here

(Attachment Link)

Your calcs are wrong, you will fry your little power transformer. 1/2 ( E^2 x C ) is the energy, your 110v is actually 150v X 3 so 450 x 450 x .000047/2=5 joules.... thats a lot released in short time

Read the link above to the story I wrote yesterday, and it has 25uf@640v or 640x640x25/2=5 joules..... look at the figures on the HV tester... way over 100000 watts, over 10000 volts and over 17 amps.... you can do a lot with 5 joules if you try.

Dario in another thread has the eagle pcb too.   http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,731.msg10716.html#msg10716


..............oztules

Thanks for the links.  I found out I can install eagle.  Maybe I can get it to work for me.  It seems I need to check for other threads on this same topic too.  You have more than this one. 

I was planning to use the small transformer to do the step up from 12 volts to the 130 or 150 depending on how well the circuit works.  You know, the small low voltage transformer not the monster output one.  The output transformer I was planning to build that so that it can handle the high voltages.  I read this thread and made mental notes about the need for good insulation between each layer.  You made that clear and others that didn't follow that had problems.  The transformer I was planning to use to convert the 12 volt to the 150 or so should work fine, it's just connected backwards is all, but that as the output transformer would likely burn up in a few pulses as you pointed out.  It may not last that long if it is not well made, which is highly likely.   So, small transformer on the front part of the circuit and a hand made one for the output that can handle all that power.  Maybe I wasn't clear on that part. 

I'm not following the 150 x3 part.  With the small transformer hooked backwards, it should convert the roughly 12 volts to roughly 120 volts AC.   When rectified it should go to about 140 to 150 DC.  My precise math is a bit fuzzy tho since it has been a while since I had to compute this stuff.  It was a rough estimate.  So I'm thinking 150 or so volts and a 47uf cap should be around .52 joules.  Since the cap may not charge completely, it could be lower than that but somewhere close to it.  Or am I really bad off here?   Heck, if it is just .2 or .3 joules at the fence, that's fine.   It'll keep the deer out at least.  Plus, he only has about 1500 feet of actual fence line anyway.  His garden is a bit small.