Author Topic: Whats going on with Smart meters  (Read 13797 times)

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Offline Isaiah

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Whats going on with Smart meters
« on: February 27, 2012, 09:45:35 pm »
Those four columns I wrote are packed with expert opinions and what's going on in other states and much more.
http://www.usobserver.com/archive/july-11/epa-abolished.html

Devvy
 I have read Devvy' s columns for many years and have communicated with her on and off over the years .
Devvy is in the process of taking the smart meter issue in her state to the PUC and administrative judge.
I have issues with my local also and maybe we can come together and  work these issues out with these utility's.
if any one wants to contact her I think her email addy is at the end of the article.
 And yes this is why we are messing with off grid power.
 isaiah
 
 

Offline Wolvenar

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Re: Whats going on with Smart meters
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2012, 12:03:13 am »
Please elaborate some on this topic and why you linked us..
( I have verified Isaiah's account was not hijacked  ;D   )

I am particularly interested in this topic as I and  friends have proven that at least OUR power co seems to have meters that are
*ahem* "randomly accurate".
Trying to make power from alternative energy any which way I can.
Just to abuse what I make. (and run this site)

Offline WooferHound

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Re: Whats going on with Smart meters
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2012, 09:33:27 am »
I looked at the linked article
and it doesn't say anything about Smart meters
did you provide the wrong link ?
or did you title this incorrectly ?

The article is about the EPA being Out Of Control
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Offline tomw

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Re: Whats going on with Smart meters
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2012, 10:06:12 am »
Yeah, what wooferhound said?

Maybe you snagged the wrong url?

That EPA article is a bit over the top for me.

Tom
Do NOT mistake me for any kind of "expert".

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Offline Isaiah

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Re: Whats going on with Smart meters
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2012, 12:33:57 pm »
 Tom
You were right she gave me the wrong url and it was late and i was a bit of a hurry  so here is the correct info
 I hope this clears things up

isaiah
############################################################
http://www.devvy.com/smart_meter_legal_defense.html
 
 
Just click on the caption and the column will come up:
 

My fight against the 'smart meter' - Aug 15, 2011
(You don't want one of those dangerous things on your house)

 

Smart Meters - The new silent killer - Sept 2, 2011

 

'Smart' Meter That Does NOT Save Energy - Sept 24, 2011

 

Update on my fight against the smart meter - Jan 24, 2012
***************************************************************
 
 isaiah
 
 

Offline Wolvenar

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Re: Whats going on with Smart meters
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2012, 11:02:23 am »
I have my reasons to dislike the new meters, particularily where the power company * allegedly* can change
meter calibration to show more or less power than the customer actually uses.
I must point out I generally agree with many points contained within your links.

One topic however I must raise objection to.
RF from these devices causing ill effects..
I know some might not agree with me nor like my opinion.
I also cannot legitimately say that these arguments that disagree with what I point out are without merit.
Although I respect the thoughts and opinions of those who think differently than I do on this.
It's near impossible to say given the complicating factors I refer to below.

I cannot see how these meters are any more health concern because of rf radiation than any other device today.
First of all the idea of these being any more dangerous in close proximity seems a little under thought.
These are designed to transmit and receive at a relatively low frequency in order to propagate a rather poor medium for data transfer.
Secondly these signals are entering your home through the wiring of the house whether you have one of these meters on your house or not. Any meter on the power companies line send the very same rf, and it MUST by DESIGN follow the power lines as their physical data connection. Meaning all meters local to you are transmitting rf that will likely find its way into your home. Secondly many versions of these
devices are now two way communicating. Each substation has a transceiver to do this, and from there they transfer this data by a number of means to the power companies data storage facilities
Also, these power lines have  particular wavelength(s) they naturally respond to, depending characteristics of each of the lines.
This generally VERY low but they do pick them up on many different wavelengths and carry these into your home as well.

How many electric blankets, power lines, radio stations, cell phones, cordless phones, satellite broadcasts, computers, microwaves, wifi,
TVs, radio receivers ( yeah they produce minute rf also look up superhetrodyne),
CF or any florescent bulbs, induction ranges, monitors, switching power supplies... I could go on literally until I die of old age..

All these devices output a small but statistically significant RF signal, yet very few people seem to have any trouble with these devices.
There are exception of a very few extraordinary circumstances of course. Such people have included those with severely damaged nervous systems, metal shrapnel, and certain immuno compromised individuals. This is of course a very small percentage of the population, even less when you weed out those that actually have psychological problems and not any true physical symptoms.

I know a family that owns/operate many radio stations..
These guys build them and have literally spent most of their lives within a stones throw of very strong AM band frequency radiating from the tower pushing over 100KW. They are all well into their 40s with their parents that started this business near or into their 80s.. Not any part of that family has had ill effects like cancers, or any other effects generally attributed to RF exposure.
In fact it's surprisingly rare to EVER see any of them sick at all.

We are and always have been in a constant bombardment of radio waves from the sun, stars, quasars, and any other cosmic source.
In the greater part of the last century humans have upped the exposure building terrestrial sources, with the design to focus these radio waves in frequency and power..

Another hotly debated similar topic, cell phones.
Once you take factors out like heat rash or light burns, all the way to exploding batteries from using phone that are getting to hot..
The ability to single out a device is SO hard, that even with a very particular set of circumstances which cell phones create,  its very hard to get any conclusive evidence that they produce any ill effects that are not caused by the physical awkward positions needed to use them..
This may change as time and exposure get greater in the future given these created circumstances are still relatively new biologically speaking

Again, I'm not saying anyone is wrong.
 I am just trying to point out, any one device being singled in this way and labeled as a potential cause of illnesses, is almost impossible to back up in any meaningful way. Numbers and statistics are notoriously bent to suit the need.
When I see hospitals and clinics full of problems that can be definitively attributed to a certain device. That's when I can believe it.

With RF, its going to be a VERY hard to track, and even harder to prove situation.

Again, I'm also not happy with the smart meters.
There has to be some legal limitations set forth on them.. a
As much as I  HATE adding laws to an already broken legal system..
It comes down to the fact big business has a habit of not working for consumers, and things that are now relied on for life today like electricity cannot be left up to shareholders and CEOs.

Well I better shut up now this has been just another of my normal overly long rants..
Trying to make power from alternative energy any which way I can.
Just to abuse what I make. (and run this site)

Offline WooferHound

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Re: Whats going on with Smart meters
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2012, 04:22:10 pm »
I Know I'm safe because I have my Tin Foil Hat on . . .
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Offline Isaiah

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Re: Whats going on with Smart meters
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2012, 08:45:43 pm »
here are questions and answers I got from my local electric company as received.
BTW you can hard boil an egg with two cell phones.

Dear Mr. Forster,
 
Thank you for your inquiry. There are a lot of questions right now about smart meters as many utilities are in the process of implementation. We actually completed full deployment of our automated meter system in 2005 and have been able to provide quality, real-time data to our members now for many years. In fact, the graph that you see on your monthly bill is a result of the data we are able to retrieve from your meter. The technology allows us to help our members better understand and manage their energy use.
 
I consulted with our engineer to help with answers to some of your questions. If you need further information or clarification, please feel free to ask. We are happy to provide the information.
 
With your new  smart meters why are we receiving an estimated bill?
In early February our metering system crashed, causing a significant loss of data and functionality. After nearly three weeks of work, we have rebuilt the system and now have a more robust back-up in place to help us avoid this type of loss in the future. In the immediate aftermath of the failure, we were unable to retrieve data through the system, which is why we had to estimate bills in February.
 
How is the signal  transmitted from the meter?
The signal is transmitted via Power Line Carrier back to the substation, then via 900 Mhz radio back to the office.
 
What means do you have to receive this signal?
Collectors in the substation transmit the information back to the office where it is received on a standard radio receiver.
 
What frequency dose the smart meter system operate on?
Meters use the 60 Hertz power line and inject a 1-3 kHz wave onto the 60 hertz.
 
Do you have  hand outs for the health hazards of the smart meter system?
There is a lot of conflicting information about health hazards related to smart meter systems. However, we believe, and your board of directors believes, that this technology is a wise and safe choice for our co-op members and their families. We are all continuously exposed to very low levels of both natural and man$B!>(Bmade radio frequency (RF) fields. Even the earth$B!G(Bs surface and the human body are constant sources of RF fields. Inside your own home you will likely find numerous items that emit RF fields including microwave ovens, cell phones, cordless phones, televisions, Wi$B!>(BFi signals, antennas and receivers as well as lighting. Again, we have significant experience with our own system and have no reason to believe that it has caused or resulted in health hazards of any kind.
 
Just think we used to read the meter ourselves at no cost to you. Now we will probably find it costs you more for the meter reader and office help to process?
Even when members were reading their own meters, there was still a cost to the cooperative, and ultimately the members, related to entering and processing data, estimating or sending field personnel to the home when meter reads weren't turned in, etc. Your board of directors approved this undertaking and the associated costs because of the benefit of automation and information. Again, we have been fully deployed for seven years and firmly believe the investment in our infrastructure and system is ultimately a tremendous benefit to you and the other users at the other end of the line.
 
Again, we thank you for taking the time to ask the questions. There are so many misconceptions and assumptions surrounding this technology, and we would much prefer to deal with these kinds of questions directly and continue in our attempts to educate our members.
 
 
-
Katie Mack
Customer Care Representative
Midwest Energy Cooperative


Comment from a friend  "More clever word Smithing."

We have also heard of billing changes  with the smart meters some very drastic.

Also Id like to comment that they were selling the bb over the wire internet and the company that was doing it for them closed their doors.
quote from their news letter

''IBEC announced in December that it is exiting the blp business after finical and technology issues preventing them from sustaining their  business model.""
 Could you imaging internet over those wires with all the static and magnetism?
It would definitely sound much worse than the 1939 patch on patch  phone line we have here.
Oh ya the phone co will sell you broad band over those wires too but you wont get what you paying for..
The last comment on the smart meter is the pwr co didnt get permission to put that on our property!!
 Isaiah

Offline frackers

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Re: Whats going on with Smart meters
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2012, 10:07:36 pm »
BTW you can hard boil an egg with two cell phones.

 Isaiah

References?

I find it hard to believe that a radio transmitter of 2W output which only transmits for one eighth of the time (its mulitplexed so the average power is only 1/4 watt) will cook an egg very well. Try it with a couple of  small torch bulbs which would have similar heating effect and see how long it takes.

Robin Down Under (or are you Up Over!)

Offline rossw

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Re: Whats going on with Smart meters
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2012, 10:16:11 pm »
Remember the journalists motto: "Never let the truth stand in the way of a good story".

Offline Wolvenar

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Re: Whats going on with Smart meters
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2012, 10:48:13 pm »
2 watt is along the lines of older analog hand phones. Even at that there is absolutely NO way to hard boil an egg..

Modern cells working on digital GSM and similar newer technologies work on the lines of a couple hundred milliwatt.
If a  couple cell phones could hard boil and egg..
You would be deaf by the end of a phone call from the radiation burns and damage to all of the delicate tissues in and of the ear

Compare these figures with the radiation and heating effects of direct sunlight on an object.

Please, try two cell phones on each side of an egg. Record it and prove it to me..
No pre existing youtube videos, no tricks.. Id love to see it

Sorry I am a little harsh on the issue. But I believe there are a lot of false claims being made about the effects of extremely low power RF.
For what ever reasons these are so rampant and wide spread that the general unknowing public are inclined to believe it, no matter the truth.

 I have a long history working in high powered RF..
I have been briefly exposed a few times to RF at powers that really COULD hard boil an egg in a few minutes time.
Although I do have time I worry about the long term effects that those exposures may cause, I worry little of the low powered devices.

Trying to make power from alternative energy any which way I can.
Just to abuse what I make. (and run this site)

Offline Watt

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Re: Whats going on with Smart meters
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2012, 11:13:42 pm »
2 watt is along the lines of older analog hand phones. Even at that there is absolutely NO way to hard boil an egg..

Modern cells working on digital GSM and similar newer technologies work on the lines of a couple hundred milliwatt.
If a  couple cell phones could hard boil and egg..
You would be deaf by the end of a phone call from the radiation burns and damage to all of the delicate tissues in and of the ear

Compare these figures with the radiation and heating effects of direct sunlight on an object.

Please, try two cell phones on each side of an egg. Record it and prove it to me..
No pre existing youtube videos, no tricks.. Id love to see it

Sorry I am a little harsh on the issue. But I believe there are a lot of false claims being made about the effects of extremely low power RF.
For what ever reasons these are so rampant and wide spread that the general unknowing public are inclined to believe it, no matter the truth.

 I have a long history working in high powered RF..
I have been briefly exposed a few times to RF at powers that really COULD hard boil an egg in a few minutes time.
Although I do have time I worry about the long term effects that those exposures may cause, I worry little of the low powered devices.

No ''pun" intended. 

However, I do know what is wrong with me.  NO, it's not the smoke I did NOT inhale, it's the two cell phones I talk on simultaneously at times.  One at each ear.....

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Offline rossw

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Re: Whats going on with Smart meters
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2012, 11:19:20 pm »
Totally agree Wolv.

Ignorance is these guys greatest weapon. The general public is unbelievably ignorant.

I too have worked with RF since my early teenage years, everything from QRP milliwatt amateur radio gear from 1.8MHz up to my old X-band stuff (modified plessy GUNN diode modules with varicap modulation), through kilowatt linears in from HF up to 1.296GHz for the old EME (or "moonbounce") stuff, and of course with commercial radio equipment in tens (and one case hundreds) of kilowatts of carrier.

The radiated power from cellphones just isn't going to even make an egg luke warm.

That said: a couple of years ago, I was doing some testing of Motorola Cannopy OFDM wireless gear. They'd brought it to our offices for consideration. Well, some quick tests inside wouldn't hurt, surely. After all - peak power was +30dBm
in the band we were looking. (1 watt for you non-radio-techies). And that was EIRP.

Well, I had started the setup, but then got distracted on a phone call for a while. I could *FEEL* something funny. Couldn't put my finger on it, exactly.... but as soon as I got off the phone I twigged.

Someone had put one of these radios on their "optional" Point-to-Point kit. Which was basically a large, solid, parabolic reflector. They'd aimed it away from themselves - but not even realised it was aimed right at me!

Worse yet, when I did some investigation - their 30dBm was actually +36dBm (they had mis-read the spec, and they were allowed 4 watts in the 2.4GHz spectrum, not up here in 5.8GHz), and they were running that as RF IN to their antenna - which had 6dB gain already (so we're now at +42dBm) - and at least another 28dBi from the parabolic, so we're up to +70dBm in front of it....

Doesn't sound like much?  Think again! That narrow beam out the front was the equivalent to standing in front of a 10kW microwave source!

Offline Wolvenar

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Re: Whats going on with Smart meters
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2012, 11:29:44 pm »
I just realized how surprisingly similar the power companies response was to mine.

This is my experience with smart meters.

We have had smart meters here since 2003. Back just before the smart meters  our power bill was 50-80 a month.
after the meters our usage has went up drastically over that first year they were installed.

Sure I have added a few devices, however I have also significantly lowered our usage in other areas.

Our basic fee has went up, so has the cost per kwh. But I saw our bill go from 50-80 , to 250-320 a month.
And supposedly our total KWH use has raised 3-4x

I was always in question of why, spent months trying to locate what we were doing to cause our usage to go up so drastically.
One day an electrician friend of mine and I were talking this over, and decided to do as he did and buy a calibrated standard type meter to put in our main feed. The error between the meters we installed, and the power co. meters were as we expected.
 
His results per month varied less than ours did, but always in favor of the power company.
Another interesting thing..
He is a what we call a snowbird, who leaves the area in the winter, and shuts down his house to a point it only draws minimal power for security systems etc. His bill did not change one bit the 6 months he was gone compared to what it was while he was there the first year, despite his protests.
He eventually got an attorney to write a letter asking for an explanation of this and why their meter was drastically different than his ..
The bill changed a lot, the meters seem to read nearly the same while he is gone. But each year since this happened, predictably a week or so  after he leaves, the power company shows up and "inspects" their meter, though he gives them no information when he leaves.

Ours was always extremely in favor of the power company.  3-4x disparity just like I was seeing in our bill.
Now I immediately got into it with the power company the first month.. They came out and *replaced* the smart meter.
Next month the two were spot on, and our bill was $120 like I would think it should be.
The month after that, we were right back to where it was, plus we got an extra charge for the meter change.
I got into a nice arguing match with a few employees over this, and got no where but the meter change cost removed, or so I was told it would be.

The 3rd month I got a $720 something bill.
This bill stated they had made a mistake on the bill that we got of $120, plus the meter change fee. and the current month of $320.
They also stated this ill was due immediately or I faced disconnection in 3 days..
I threatened to bring them to court, talked to a few attorneys, and they all told me I have virtually no chance to win such a fight.
I wound up paying this bill, and have been carefully weighing my options since, and have some plans I best not make public at this time.

Part of these plans are getting this place off the grid.
Tomorrow I pick up the first of my solar panels..

Trying to make power from alternative energy any which way I can.
Just to abuse what I make. (and run this site)

Offline WooferHound

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Re: Whats going on with Smart meters
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2012, 06:36:32 am »
What frequency dose the smart meter system operate on?
Meters use the 60 Hertz power line and inject a 1-3 kHz wave onto the 60 hertz.

This is not high frequency microwaves
It's not even radio
it's in the middle of the audio frequencies
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