Author Topic: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine  (Read 21705 times)

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Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2012, 09:33:24 pm »
Anyway, the heat exchanger sounds good, but to extend that idea, what about running some plumbing up behind the panels (assuming on the roof) to help eradicate some of the ice problems?

It was me.  We're getting well past the winter solstice now and the panels are starting to work again.  We got 6" of snow yesterday and I didn't bother cleaning them off because the sun wasn't shining and the wind was blowing at 30 mph.  When the wind blows at least 12 mph steady I have no use for the solar panels.

But today the wind died out and the sun came out for a few hours.  The panels worked good today and we got 8.7 kWh from them.

The problem isn't really snow and ice so much as terrible solar conditions from about the first of December to the middle of February.  As the days continue to get longer now the solar starts getting pretty reliable again.  But compared to yesterday during the snow storm when I got 48 kWh from wind turbines (and 54 kWh the day before), 8.7 kWh today is like a drop in the bucket.  It's enough to get us thru until the wind blows again without the generator having to start.

The solar panels are our "backup" for poor wind days.
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Offline MadScientist267

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2012, 09:46:22 pm »
The genset is where the idea mostly came in - I remember you mentioning having to go out in very undesirable conditions to start the thing because your inverter (and therefore blower) cut out due to LVD.

I guess the question then becomes, does the labor and cost of installing something like this outweigh the dreaded 3AM genset cranking in sub-zero temps?

In the summer (or when conditions otherwise aren't conducive to releasing the heat there), the heat could be diverted to the heat exchanger (assuming water to air) mentioned before.

I figure the energy needs to go somewhere... so why not? :)

Steve
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Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2012, 09:56:01 pm »
I guess the question then becomes, does the labor and cost of installing something like this outweigh the dreaded 3AM genset cranking in sub-zero temps?

Well, we've upgraded our system drastically since those days   ;)

We put in a whole new system last April, and we're loving it.  Our generator starts by itself now, when required.  It's got cold weather pre-heat that comes on automatically when the ambient temp drops below 5°  F, and the whole nine yards.  We had somewhat of a cobbled together system for close to 8 years.  When our daughter graduated from college we decided to spend some money on ourselves for once.  These days, if it gets down to -20F and we run short on power at 3:00AM we just stay in bed where it's nice and warm, and the generator is also nice and toasty warm and it starts up and takes care of the problem.   ;D
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Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2012, 09:23:26 pm »
I've had this new turbine completed, test run and ready for the tower for over a week.  Just waiting for weather so I can lower the tower, get the 3.8 meter off it and install the new one.

We had a blizzard a few days ago that left a sheet of ice 2-3" thick were the winch truck has to park to hold the tower, and snow so deep it's over my waist where the tower lays down.  Might be a bit before I'll be able to get that tower down.





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Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2012, 10:47:17 pm »
As long as I haven't been able to get this machine on the tower when I wanted to, might as well go over some of the other "features" I built into this one.

I've never had a need to change oil in the gearcase on any of these geared turbines, and the oldest one is over 2 years on the tower and about 16,000 hours running time on it.  The last time I had that one down, which was last summer, it still hasn't developed any backlash in the drivetrain, it runs quiet, and still has the original oil in it that was put in when it was built in November of 2009.

But I figured what the heck.  On this one I put in a drain plug on the side of the gearcase that faces the ground when the tower is lowered, and the drain plug is at the lowest point in the sump:



And then I put in a fill plug on the other side of the gearcase - this particular transmission design requires 250cc of oil in it.  I didn't bother putting a brass washer on the fill plug.



On the last two turbines I've made these smoked Lexan generator shrouds.  They help to keep the weather out of the generator (especially snow and ice).  And they look really nice too



I used the same type of stator mount that I used on the ferrite machine.  There's a steel bushing in the stator that prevents crushing or cracking of the stator, and a spacer with two stainless steel washers on the end of it.  I used five 3/8" bolts on this one and they are torqued to 45 lb-ft.  The old "threaded rod mount" in the book designs is bogus because they come loose after awhile - it don't matter if you use loctite on the nuts or not.  They still come loose.  This setup will never loosen up and ruin a stator because the nuts came loose



On this stator I brought all six leads of the three phases out in the form of power studs cast integral in the stator.  I have it wired wye for this high voltage application.  But I can also wire it IRP or delta if I want.  I've built some stators that are hard wired internally delta or wye.  But it's always best to bring all six leads out like this in case you want to change something in the future


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Offline philb

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2012, 11:16:22 pm »

And then I put in a fill plug on the other side of the gearcase - this particular transmission design requires 250cc of oil in it.  I didn't bother putting a brass washer on the fill plug.
Chris

Chris, how did you determine how much oil to use in the gear case?

Also, excellent job on the wind turbine, very professional.

Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2012, 11:34:51 pm »
Chris, how did you determine how much oil to use in the gear case?

The inside of the gearcase measures 14 cm x 6.4 cm and requires an oil depth of 2.8 cm for the very bottom of the chain to be submerged in oil.  That's 250 cm3.

Edit:  When these things are running the chain acts as an oil pump and it pulls the level of the oil down in the sump to where the chain is running in no oil.  The oil is carried to the top by the chain where it gets flung around in the gearcase in a fine mist by the high speed shaft, that can be spinning up to 1,200 rpm.  The oil drains back down the case walls to the sump where it gets picked up again.

The viscous drag in the drivetrain is virtually zero.  The gearcase is 95.1% power efficient @ 112 rpm input, 94.8% power efficient @ 475 rpm input @ 4.1 kW.
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Offline MadScientist267

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2012, 11:50:46 pm »
Very nice machine, Chris.

I think you have effectively killed off the idea that geared mills are a bad thing. Nice work. ;)

Hopefully the weather works with you and you can get it in the air, looking forward to seeing some data from this.

Oh, and power too... :D

Steve
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Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2012, 12:22:24 am »
Really, I don't know who came up with the theory that geared mills are "bad".  Gearing has been used in wind turbines for better than 80 years.  From the Winchargers built in the 30's to the modern Vesta turbines built by the largest manufacturer of wind turbines on earth.

There's a lot of "old wive's tales" that seem to get propagated as "fact".  For instance, I read in a book called "Homebrew Windpower" once that using springs on the tail of a wind turbine is "bad".  It says in the book, quote, "the spring could break and cause your turbine to fail".  And yet I read recently where the tail on a turbine failed because it didn't have a spring in it to dampen it.  Ironically, the turbine that failed is owned by the author of that book.
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Offline Bio Diesel Man

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2012, 09:28:38 am »
Hi Chris,                Just  wondering if you put slip rings on your units so as not to  have to worry about wire twisting coming down the tower?? I was thinking that is something I would do on my turbine..Does this make good sence to you or is it not necessary..  I know on my unit I built over 20 years ago I had  slip rings on it..   Thanks for your expertise and this great site!1 Duff,,, Bio Diesel Man

Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2012, 09:37:14 am »
No, I just use a hanging Type SEOW cable.  I try to avoid slip rings like the plague.
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Offline MadScientist267

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2012, 10:29:52 am »
Really, I don't know who came up with the theory that geared mills are "bad".  Gearing has been used in wind turbines for better than 80 years.  From the Winchargers built in the 30's to the modern Vesta turbines built by the largest manufacturer of wind turbines on earth.

There's a lot of "old wive's tales" that seem to get propagated as "fact".  For instance, I read in a book called "Homebrew Windpower" once that using springs on the tail of a wind turbine is "bad".  It says in the book, quote, "the spring could break and cause your turbine to fail".  And yet I read recently where the tail on a turbine failed because it didn't have a spring in it to dampen it.  Ironically, the turbine that failed is owned by the author of that book.
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That's the kind of thing I would be referring to... several posts "over there" that seem to be off with a few things...  ???

But as I read more and more, the forward thinking seems to dispel the rumors. While it's true that there are losses in something like gearing, it's apparent that at and above certain sizes/power levels, the losses are overwhelmed by the gains.

I've always kinda wondered why "they" were so intent on not doing such things; as you said, every commercial grade turbine above a certain power level has a tranny in it. There had to be a reason that they kept using them. So why that's "beyond" the DIY crowd has always kinda bothered me. Maybe it's fear for the extra complications involved... ?

Now, granted, I speak from a purely theoretical point of view; I've never built a wind turbine (of any real size anyway) for myself, so I can't give personal experience on the pros and cons of doing so. But logic dictates one does not use a tire iron for a toothpick, and a small sliver of wood to manipulate rubber on a metal rim. ;)

Steve
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Offline philb

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2012, 11:42:49 am »
MadScientist267,
My last turbine (iron genny) weighed in at a little less than 100 pounds without a gear box IIRC. I will have to lighten it in other areas to keep the weight down if I add one as I prefer not to have too much money tied up in equipment or rental to lift it in place.

Gear boxes take more attention to detail to get them right. That takes them out of the scope of most backyard hobbies unless they have a small machine shop in their garage. I think that may have been where no gear boxes thing originated and a little more and more was added as time went on.

Springs, IMHO, have to be quality as well as set up correctly if they are going to work without constant replacement.

I'm thinking that once the commercial turbines get to a size that is unmanageable by human muscle, the manufacturers realise that and they add the additional weight of a gear box, and thereby adding efficiency without compromising sales. The largest turbines on the planet, arguably, have the highest efficiencies.


Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2012, 11:52:40 am »
I've always kinda wondered why "they" were so intent on not doing such things; as you said, every commercial grade turbine above a certain power level has a tranny in it. There had to be a reason that they kept using them. So why that's "beyond" the DIY crowd has always kinda bothered me. Maybe it's fear for the extra complications involved... ?

Not every utility scale turbine uses gearing.  There are a few, such as Enercon, that use direct drive.  But the size and weight, complexity and cost of the generator is significant in those machines.

The homebrew book designs were developed to be easy to build from commonly available materials, using normal hand tools, and not requiring any significant machine work.  But just because that's one way to build a simple turbine does not mean it's the only way.  And that's where the homebrew books got it wrong - they attempt to give a person the notion that anything more complex than the simple way is going to break, or fail, or it won't work.  That's dead wrong thinking.  In this case I invite somebody to try and design a direct drive 180 volt generator for a 10 foot turbine that operates at better than 90% efficiency at 3 kW output.  Attempting that will immediately bring to light the limitations of one design, that are not limitations in another.

When ever you build a high performance machine you have to take some pictures of the engine because it might have a 12-71 blower and Enderle injection or something:

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Well, this one isn't nearly that exciting.  But this is what ultimately will make everything happen on this new turbine when I get it up:




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Offline tomw

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2012, 11:58:09 am »
I think "K.I.S.S" trumped everything there? The same attitude that let the forum go with no changes, guidance or care  for years drives K.I.S.S. there? I call it apathy.

Simple is good but only if it works and works long term.

I don't build turbines but I probably could build a dual rotor Hugh Piggott style unit if push came to shove.

Not even remotely capable of a transmission build myself.

So it kind of comes down to what you are capable of.

Now if there was a junk yard component that would sub in for the hand built transmission then it might suit more DIY types?

Frankly, I see both sides to this and could argue either effectively in a debate.

Things tend to favor gearing when the size exceeds 20 feet or so. Or seems to anyway.

Courses for horses as they say.

Tom
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