Author Topic: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine  (Read 21763 times)

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Offline Wolvenar

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2012, 05:36:43 pm »
@ oztules


I am interested as to what kind of resistive loads.
 ie where these loads significantly increasing in temperature and lowering in resistance as the temp rose?
This could lead to missing the math involved with that change, therfore creating a sense of unpredictability?
Just a wild guess, I would not expect you to make simple oversites.
 
In extreme conditions Chris' setup with the water heating may do such, but its less likely as the temperature would generaly limit at the point water starts to boil. ( then you have other problems to worry about ).

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Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2012, 05:45:10 pm »
I got my three-phase load at 4.8 ohm so it will pull about 6.4 kW @ 175 volts.  I think the key is using the PWM and the SSR to drive the load so it matches shaft power.  I were to slam that load in fully, even in high winds, it would hard stall the turbine.  If I get that little 3.2 meter putting out 6.4 kW, about all I can say about that is that she's flat out wound, baby.  At that point I think I'm more worried about flying trees and buildings,and stuff like that, than flying turbine blades    :)

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Offline oztules

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2012, 06:24:59 pm »
Wolv
"
I am interested as to what kind of resistive loads.
 ie where these loads significantly increasing in temperature and lowering in resistance as the temp rose?
This could lead to missing the math involved with that change, therfore creating a sense of unpredictability?
Just a wild guess, I would not expect you to make simple oversites."

Yes the R could increase with temp, but that is not what was happening.

The R was a few microwave primaries..... in a bucket of water for cooling... (turned out to mean boiling)
No the problem was that I was thinking the furling  would be the same... it's not.

Think about it, W=ExI.... but E=IxR.... so W=E^2/R.... even if the R changes a bit, and the E rises to keep the W the same, it is still really a square function. So for a given R load, it will absorb power as a square of the rpm, but the wind see things differently..... its  power is a cube of the rpm...... therein lies the problem.

So unless you pick a monster load, and use PWM as Chris is going to do, you will be overpowered by an order of magnitude.... simple.

I knew that, and knew R may change, but inconsequential really, it was the furling that changed that made it so interesting. I know from experience that  4 ohm load on my mill is just no where near enough to try this with pwm mitigation, probably 2R might work. ( the two coils were about 4R from memory... total.)

As DaveB explained, is's the furling you need or more loads to switch in... one of the two (or more pwm into a huge load .. per Chris)

I'd like to claim some other losses from the inductive reactance of the coils to the frequency.... but that would be wishful thinking. Air coils in the  mill stator would have the same problem.... and they didn't exhibit any lack of ooomph.




..................oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2012, 08:18:47 pm »
In extreme conditions Chris' setup with the water heating may do such, but its less likely as the temperature would generaly limit at the point water starts to boil. ( then you have other problems to worry about ).

I've long heated water with the turbines and solar as a "dump load", except running the elements with the inverter.  When I first started doing that on a couple good days of wind we blew the steam valve on the primary water heater twice.  My wife was PI$$ED!  It blew hot water all over her laundry room.  The pipe blow-off pipe goes down towards the floor but when it blew it still sprayed water everywhere.

That was when I put the elements on thermostatic control, bought another RD-1 and use the second RD-1 to shut down the turbines when the system voltage goes over 30.

This three phase water heating is using the same elements I used before.  I'm still experimenting with it and the ferrite magnet turbine doesn't make as much voltage as I'd like to get better efficiency from it.  When I get this new rig flying it should be more efficient and do a better job of water heating.

Even so, with the wind blowing today the little ferrite 3.2 meter has been heating water since about 11:00 this morning.  It's got the primary heater up to 175 degrees and the preheater up to 115 degrees.  We'll take showers tonight and that'll use a bunch of hot water up.  But when it gets that hot you don't use much and you have to be really careful not to get accidentally burnt by it.
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Offline Wolvenar

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2012, 09:24:25 pm »
For reference I replied to this here, as it was of similar topic

http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,278.msg2289.html#msg2289
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Offline frackers

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2012, 09:32:32 pm »
  It's got the primary heater up to 175 degrees and the preheater up to 115 degrees.  We'll take showers tonight and that'll use a bunch of hot water up.  But when it gets that hot you don't use much and you have to be really careful not to get accidentally burnt by it.
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Chris

No tempering valve? You can get a hefty fine for that here in NZ...

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Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2012, 09:49:41 pm »
No tempering valve? You can get a hefty fine for that here in NZ...

The day some government agency thinks they can tell me what to do or not to do in my own home - and if I don't do what they say I'm going to get fined -  is the day I'll be grabbing the 12 gauge and heading to City Hall to fix the problem.
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Offline Wolvenar

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2012, 09:57:20 pm »
I agree Chris, but it seems there are to many sheep that just follow orders.
Hopefully thre are more of us out there than I realize.
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Offline MadScientist267

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2012, 10:44:19 pm »
The only thing that comes to mind with that is that whole thing about "biggah baddah boom!"

I'm sure I don't have to tell you man... them watur heeterz thar aint no joke!

What about an electronic valve to release some of the hot water elsewhere when the tank temp gets close to (but not quite at) the trip point of the TPRV?

Meter off a few gallons (or even just do it by time) by something like a hose leading somewhere that it won't matter when some 170 degree water suddenly shows up?

Just a thought...

Either way, just be careful dude.

Steve
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Offline rossw

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2012, 11:23:37 pm »
Something I do here, which may not be conventional... I monitor the upper manifold temperature, and when it gets to a setpoint of my choice, I actually pump off a bunch of the heat into my hydronics tanks. It has the benefit of cooling the solar collector so it won't blow off and waste energy, while putting it somewhere I can use.

I still have the external pressure relief valve of course, but it's set quite low (it's not a mains-pressure system).

Offline Wolvenar

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2012, 12:05:57 am »
I still think in these kind of things the KISS method ( at least as a last resort device) is best.
I have had some training in steam engines.
The first thing said and stressed over and over.
All safety devices are there for more than show, these are what keep you among the living.

Make sure above all else they are working before starting any boiler,  they HAVE to be the first thing to fail!

Electrical control is great, as long as there is a mechanical fail safe device for the just in case moment.
One that is testable so its demonstrably able to rely on. and then don't always rely on that.
Even if this is just a weak material pipe in a safe to vent area.
This likely does not carry as great of dangers but it does have some.

I also would suggest electrical control should be built so if it fails, it fails to be as likely to go to an off state as best possible, so no power to anything that heats.

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Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2012, 12:57:12 pm »
I like Ross' idea of pumping off hot water.  If we had a hydronic heating system that's what I'd do too.  Since I hooked up my three elements for three phase water heating I got the thermostats set on them at 185 degrees.  I haven't figured out a good way to deal with that yet.  The primary heater is always hotter than the pre-heater.  If the primary gets up to 185 and shuts the element off, then my three-phase load goes away.

I can configure one of my RD-1's for a temp input signal on one channel.  Then use it to shut the turbine down at 180 degrees or whatever.  But so far I haven't done that - I've been simply monitoring it and having my wife run some hot water to wash clothes or dishes if if the primary heater gets too hot.

We got that problem today, actually.  The wind died down for a bit last night and switched from SE to W.  It came back with a vengeance at 25-30 mph and the bank has been floating for 25 hours now.  That primary heater was up to 172 when I came in for lunch so my wife is doing laundry to use it up and cool the heaters off.  She uses "warm" water on the washer setting and it's steaming hot.  But it sure got my dirty coveralls nice and clean.  Nothing like good hot water to remove dirt   :)

If the wind continues to blow I'll have to shut the turbine down.

Edit:  I just got an idea after I posted that.  Why couldn't a guy put one of those Modine heater exchangers like they use with outdoor wood boilers on it?  Just plumb the thing into the hot water line with a circulation pump and a thermostat to turn it on if the water gets to 180.  Plumb the return into the cold water in on the water heater.

That would be useful for winter time.  Wouldn't work all that great in the summer.  But it's usually only in the winter when we get these sustained high winds anyway.
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Offline Wolvenar

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2012, 02:37:38 pm »
That water-air exchanger sounds like a good idea to me.
It seems I am always looking for a way to get some heat from a cheap source here in Mn.
How would you move the water thought the exchange that is both tolerant of the heat, and still potable?
Is there any way to be assured the metals, and solders are also usable in a potable water system?

I'm sure there are a few things to consider like the galvanic corrosion possibilities if you have some way out water ph conditions.
I'm sure this is less of a worry to what hard water could do over time.

But really neither of the last two are a big deal I would guess, just figured for point of discussion I would mention them.

edit--
Maybe adding a secondary water/water exchange system and/or yet another heating tank just for this use may also be an option?
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Offline MadScientist267

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2012, 09:07:57 pm »
Just hit me -

Chris, wasn't it you that was mentioning that your solar panels aint worth squat in the dead of winter due to ice? Was either you or Ross...

Anyway, the heat exchanger sounds good, but to extend that idea, what about running some plumbing up behind the panels (assuming on the roof) to help eradicate some of the ice problems?

I don't know how feasible that really is to actually implement, but from an "on paper" perspective, it seems plausible.

Probably would need to be a closed loop system that carries the actual heat to the roof, with glycol (or something) as an antifreeze for when the pump isn't "dumping".

Just seems like since the extra energy needs to be dealt with anyway, why not make it do something useful in the process?

Of course, it's kinda counterintuitive, doing something with excess energy that will only end in even more energy production, but what if the wind dies down on you for a couple days, but your panels were thawed out ahead of time? ;)

FWIW

Steve
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Offline rossw

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2012, 09:17:34 pm »
Just hit me -

Chris, wasn't it you that was mentioning that your solar panels aint worth squat in the dead of winter due to ice? Was either you or Ross...
Wasn't me - I get great output in winter. But then, I don't get within half a degree of absolute zero like Chris does :)
(I also don't generally get ANY snow, much less 18 feet of the stuff!)