Anotherpower.com Forum
Off Grid Living / Camping => Off Grid Living / Alternative Housing => Survival Skills => Topic started by: tomw on January 27, 2012, 12:33:01 pm
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Interesting stuff.
Civilian Combat statistics found in my K-TOG list mail today :
Interesting article on this by Ed Lovette in the February issue of Combat Handguns.
(The data is from Mr. Lovette's own research and I would love to see the from where it came.)
!) Location--vast majority happen in the victims home or place of business.
2) Lighting Conditions--Victim usually has the chance to get the lights on.
3) Distance--0-10 feet. Most between 6-10 feet.
4) Duration---actual shooting was over in seconds or a fraction of seconds.
5) Physical contact rarely involved but when it did was exceptionally violent.
6) Number of shots fired was often one but an average of three.
7) Movement--movement was usually to retrieve the pistol and then to confirm the problem.
There was no "pieing" or searching, no moving while shooting or lateral movement to avoid gunfire.
8] Use of security equipment ( OC spray, knife, flashlight etc)..NONE!!!
9) Use of Cover--Almost non existant.
10) Firing positions---Shots fired by the Armed Citizen (AC) were most frequently from the standing position, several were on their back in bed, only one fired using the bed as cover.
11) Type of Weapon Used.. AC overwelmingly used a .38 revolver.
12) Response of Bad Guy When Shot---He most often stopped fighting and ran off, closely followed by stopping fighting and falling down. When the AC fired a contact shot into the bad guys torso/neck the fight was usually over very quickly.
13) Verbal Exchange Between AC and Bad Guy---Almost always.
14) Training by AC---Overwhelmingly none, followed by a small number who had taken a CCW course and a very small amount who had fired a handgun while in the military.
My take on this:
Some of these statistics are the reverse of what they teach in combat courses. Moving while firing, range for practice shooting and a couple others.
I practice at 30 to 50 feet so figure anything in between is only going to be off an inch or 2 max and be inconsequential. I will be doing more point and shoot training at 10 feet now, however.
Some would say sleeping with and carrying a gun makes me paranoid. I say what do I have to be paranoid about, I am well armed?
Within 10 feet anyone should be capable of an offhand "point and shoot" torso shot, not the 30 feet they preach when most would need somewhat careful aiming to hit well.
Not much for caliber data included other than most were a .38 wheel gun but to me that just means "any gun in hand is better than the perfect gun in another place".
The part about training of most of the citizens doing the defensive shooting being non existent is interesting, too.
We gave up trying to turn Buddy into an attack / guard dog:
(http://pics.ww.com/d/393588-2/Buddy.jpg)
That failed so we decided to leverage our 2nd amendment rights. Hopefully never have to use these tools but it is always better to have them and not need them than to need them and not have them!
A Sheriff's Deputy can get to an intruder here in about 20 minutes @ 60 MPH any of my pistols can get there in a couple milliseconds @ 1000 Feet per Second or faster.
Just my rant for the morning.
To you non Americans please realise it is an American thing and not intended to offend Guns are just tools.
Tom
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This non-American is not offended in any way. ;)
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I'm afraid to have a gun around. My wife gets real drunk sometimes and then it's easy to piss her of badly. Not sure I could trust her in those situations.
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One of the famous combat instructor / writer guys had some ideas about some of those points.
2) The AC does not really need the lights on, and knows the layout.
I can get out of bed, out of the room, through the hall, down the stairs, to the bathroom (washroom in metric), and 'hit the mark', all in the dark.
The Bad Guy (BG) is lucky to get around without making noise in my house, let alone know where the bedroom is.
7) The BG is expecting a cakewalk. "Loud noises" are most probably unexpected.
11) DA wheelgun is stupid simple, .38 is common in small wheelguns, and there are tons of them floating around from nearly a century of being common, so no surprise to me.
At my house, a 2" DA .38 sleeps next to a condition 2 1911. The .38 is faster to use, IMHO. 1911 is for after I'm out of bed.
14) Probably no 'formal' training. Anyone ready for the situation in that regard probably had "Dad Training" since they were 7 YO.
Not sure when my "Dad Training" started, but I popped my first whistlepig (only the head visable, BTW) from about 80 yards with a 5mm Rem Mag when I was 5, my own rifle at 7, and my own wheelgun at 12.
A) ACs have a better ratio of wins:losses than the PDs.
The writer guy mostly said it was due to the numbered things above, and I agree.
There was no A) above. Just seeing if you are paying attention.
Thinking of upgrading the 2" .38 to similar in .44 Special.
Not exactly a common item in SS at what I wanna spend on a whim, but been looking for 5 years anyway. LOL
G-
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Years ago,; until his retirement my Dad was an investigator with the local sheriff's office, and he was always undergoing some kind of training with the ATF or FBI, this or that ...he came home one day telling me about an interesting FBI statistic in which most gun battles ( 80%) were within 10 feet....phone booth work, up close and personal
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Somewhere in the past I remember reading that most gunfights were at 21 feet or less. Might have been something published
by the NRA. I practice up to 50 yards. If you can hit it at 50 yards (meters) anything under that is guaranteed (unless you
are shaking so bad from the shot of adrenalin you're going to get in that stress situation!!!).
Without getting out of bed, I can reach a 9mm semi, a 357 Herrett Contender, an M-14 and a mini-14.
Does that make me paranoid???
Or just a noid???? You can bet that if I ever have to use them in the middle of the night, I will be annoyed!!!
Ralph
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Being retarted Army, I too have NO patience for anyone who enters my home, UN-invited, day or night!! >:(
But, being the friendly fella I am, I will show them my private arseal of "get the hell outa here(s) !" :P
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Somewhere in the past I remember reading that most gunfights were at 21 feet or less. Might have been something published by the NRA.
Ralph
Hey Ralph,
T/C Contender is about the last thing I would have expected anyone to mention in this thread!
21' is what the PDs around here use(d) to 'qualify', at big giant man sized targets.
And not that many get a great score, which is something to think about.
I heard of a bow club shooting longer distances vs the local PD guys up close, at targets, and the archers won by a landslide.
Then add in the 10~20~30 minutes of response time, and a 9mm sounds barely adaquite.
With a dozen seconds to work with, and a few more than a dozen feet, not a whole lot an M-14 won't deal with.
.308 is Not something I like to shoot in the house... very often.
:o
G-
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I really like my Contenders. Got a .221 beside my computer, too.
For those not familiar with it, the .357 Herrett is a .357 bullet stuffed into a 30-30 casing!!!
If an intruder can get past that, shame on me.
I can believe the PD can't hit the side of a barn from the inside!!!!
Remember that cops don't carry guns to protect you. They carry them to protect themselves. And most of
them think they can handle anything without drawing their weapon. So they don't practice. Don't need to!!!!
.308 is Not something I like to shoot in the house
I know if I ever do, I won't be able to hear for a week. But, Hey, that might not be a bad thing!!! Won't be able to
hear them "Honey Do's", or any nagging!!!! Add that to the fact that you get to nominate some fool for the Darwin Awards,
sounds like a "Win, Win" to me.
Ralph
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Funny how folks can have such similar hobbies, interests and pastimes!
Most of us that posted in this thread have some very similar interests and experiences.
I knew what a .357 Herrit was because I actually had one some years ago. Same with the Contenders.
In a home defence situation I would much prefer a 12 guage stuffed with #4's. Deadly insaide a room but rendered faitly impotent after passing through a home wall so less chance of collateral damage to the innocent. This is important for me because, while I am completely willing to jam my pistol in an assailants ear and squeeze off a round, I never want to even nick an innocent while doing so!
I never had a civilian combat encounter but had a full ration of the military version in that SE Asian "Police Action" back 40 years ago or so. The full on violence is astounding and stupefying. Hopefully that training and experience will kick in should the civilian version intrude on my peaceful existence. The decision to use deadly force to protect myself was made then and should pose no ethical barrier to doing what needs done.
Anyway, I guess a few of you are vets, too since this country seems to have had wars in every generation. Just another possible bit of common ground.
Just my Monday ramble..
A well armed militia....
Tom
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Pacifists ..... Just purchased more 'insurance' last week. Actually a gun for the eradication of feral bacon machines. I hope to be able to make it quiet. I will pay the $200 tax to be completely legal, although I don't believe it is withing the 2nd Amendment to require a tax to exercise a "Right". I'll need to ask the next journalist I visit with how much he had to pay for the right of free speech and how many classes he took to be certified to exercise that right.
Ghurd, Taurus has a nice very light titanium .44 Spl. They also have a nice light .44 magnum. At 29 oz and carrying about 3 oz of bullets, it is a fun thing to discharge .... especially in a enclosed area. Short barreled .357 Magnums are another choice as a powerful small wheelgun as is my favorite wheelgun, the Model 58 S&W in .41 Magnum.
I guess the most important thing to remember to bring to a gunfight would be the gun. When the initial rush of 'gotta be the first' to get the new Springfield XDS, a slim and very light .45ACP, I'll probably get one of those to keep my leash of 1911's company and replace the Ruger LCP as my most often carried firearm.
Well, I need to get busy and do a bit of work around here. Work does include reloading cartridges then checking the empty hulls for proper firing doesn't it?
Ron
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Iwould use my DanWesson 445 super mag on any intruder. But only use 44 mag ammo in it.
Wouldn't want to over kill them.
JLT
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Tomw,
I understand what you're saying about innocents.
But, since my closest neighbor is 4 miles and on the other side of a ridge, I don't even have to think about
which direction I'm firing. Uhhhh, wait a second. Maybe I better change that. Would not want to hit a propane tank outside
the house!!!! :o
I do have a 12 gauge Mossberg 500 with extended tube. The rounds are alternating--slug, 00 Buck, slug, 00 Buck, etc.
It is right beside the .221 by the computer.
Sounds like we need to start a new thread and see who all the veterans are. I took the senior class trip to S.E. Asia 3 times.
Also a year on the DMZ in Korea and the one that got me medically retired was to the desert.
Ralph
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Ron,
For 'quiet machines', need to keep them under around/about 1000FPS.
Something long and heavy with a good BC and maybe a boat tail (not sure if that helps, seems like it would?), at least .30, maybe .35 would be worth researching.
The tax stamp goes with the 'quieter downer'. It can be moved from noise maker to noise maker, so .30 gives widely varied options.
The Taurus Titaniums are currently a bit out of my almost-a-dozenair price range.
I do like their small-sih frame 7 and 8 shot .357s.
Another commonality? M500s?
I have a synthetic 18" 12ga M500 with a generic red dot, 3" #4s, by the 'puter.
Also another 12ga M500 with a rifled barrel and 3-9x40 about 6' away from that one, but thats because I've been too lazy to put away the deer gun.
Got the wife a 2-barrel combo M500'C' in 20ga too.
G-
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I've been loading subsonic ammunition for .308win for a while now. The important part, when selecting a rifle for quiet operation is to look at the twist of the rifling. Too low, and long bullets will not stabilize. For .30 1:10" or even 1:8" would be nice. My A-bolt has 1:12", and bullets heavier than 8g won't stabilize at subsonic speeds. 10g stabilizes somewhat, but is not accurate, 12g hits the target sideways every so often. So heavy and long is a bit counter-intuitive here.
Loading those cartridges is also quite a lot of fun. I've been using the fastest pistol powder available here, with normal primers but with flame holes enlarged to 3mm. That should be the safest way of loading those low speed loads.
The silencer though, will work with normal loads too. Of course it will not be completely quiet, but good enough not to disturb neighbours much, or not cause any ear ringing when shooting without earplugs. Highly recommended for every shooter, wonder why it's so "bad" your side of the pond?
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Nice lesson.. I'll keep some of these in mind ;)
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Always like a story about idiots bringing a knife to a gun fight! Interesting story if true and a great one to ponder if not.
Interesting tactic faking compliance to get him thinking he is large and in charge then figuratively speaking ass raping him! ;D ;)
I probably woulda scrambled his brains with a hollow point Xtreme Terminal Performance 147 grain 9 mm bullet not scramble his life. Less explaining his way, however. Or maybe just shat myself? :o
One never knows how they will react under duress. Staring down the bore of a .45 ain't on my bucket list, I will tell you that. Staring down the sight picture of one at a knife wielding "person" would be another story.
I digress.
Thanks for the share.
Tom
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In a home defence situation I would much prefer a 12 guage stuffed with #4's. Deadly insaide a room but rendered faitly impotent after passing through a home wall so less chance of collateral damage to the innocent. This is important for me because, while I am completely willing to jam my pistol in an assailants ear and squeeze off a round, I never want to even nick an innocent while doing so!
Tom
Tom - I am not sure your choice of shot would stop or even significantly slow in a typical home wall. While visiting my parents in Texas, Dad handed me a "Snake charmer" short barreled shotgun pre-loaded with buckshot when we went to go check on the pig traps. Sorry, but I do not know the size of shot or make of the shotgun off the top of my head, but I DO know that at 125+ yards, I put 3 fatal pellets into a pesky wild hog. I learned that day not to underestimate the effective distance of buckshot, that is for sure sure!
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What makes it through the invader should be stopped, or rendered pretty much harmless by a wall...
It might not be as effective if you miss the guy, but where Tom lives, once its through that wall. it's not going to make it to one of his neighbors.
An SKS on the other hand...
I've shot through 2 trees and still took down a deer with the shot.
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An SKS on the other hand...
I've shot through 2 trees and still took down a deer with the shot.
My .308 (7.62 NATO) and my 30:06 both would go through an intruder, their car, a wall and make it to town with enough oomph to knock a man down maybe for good.
(http://www.furfishgame.com/_assets/images/featured_articles/2009-03/guns-cartridge-a.jpg)
That 30:06 round is just shy of 3 and a half inches long. The .308 is just over 2 and three quarters inches long. Both shoot the same diameter projectile.
Maybe striiderr does not know what #4 shot is?
It is NOT buckshot it is birdshot and only .130" diameter. Smaller than a BB (.170") by a third.
Tom
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Ah good point - in my mind, I was thinking #000 not #4.
#000 Buck 4.54 g (70 gr.) 9.14 mm (0.360")
That's all I will put in mine at home is bird shot too, and that's where I was going, but my mind was in full sleep deprivation.
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An SKS on the other hand...
I've shot through 2 trees and still took down a deer with the shot.
"back in the day"...
I think it was an SKS, may have been an AK, not difference both 7.62x39...
Green laquer German steel core (not AP) surplus ammo was almost free...
Somebody dumped an old cast iron looking bath tub WAY back in the woods probably 25 years before that, if it says anything about the quality/thickness of the materials.
That green German stuff would punch through both sides with no signs of slowing down, even at like ~75 yards (or as far away as I could see it in the woods). Not 'broken' holes, but nice clean holes.
G-
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Years ago when I was living up in the northern eastern mallee way back before we lost our right to guns the SKS was the general gun for roo shooting etc. oh and watching bunnies explode. One afternoon as I cleaning up a pig carcass next thing it felt like my ear drums had burst as my mate pulled out a SKK and 30 seconds later a 44 gal drum was cut in half. My mate said it was all in good fun until he saw the farm ute further on riddled with bullet holes and it wasn't such a good joke then.........