Author Topic: To pump water , Help  (Read 22251 times)

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Offline Grit

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To pump water , Help
« on: May 04, 2012, 06:21:10 pm »
Thanks wolfnar   -----OK  got a well 300 Foot deep , static water is 185 -  got 25 GPM.  (3 Years old)  It  has a 1 hp 220 v pump that I run with a gen.   casing is 6 in. with a 4 liner.   Works great but want to solorize my system .  MY thoughts are to pull the pump, because of lack of room,   and put in like a Nemo 24 volt. 1/2 poly pipe & # 8 wire (I have ). use about a 120 - 160  watt  panel, no battery but a controller, and timer set like run an hour then a 5 min. break.and back on. Water temp is 45 degrees I think (cold)   In the winter I use about 2000 gal of water a month, in the summer about 6-700 gal of water every other day because of gardening.  This is an off the grid situation.   I am on a limited income, Ret. SS.  That is why the nemo rather than the sureflow or the grundflux.  ????   Pro cons?? what ya know. & how to attack this situation.                          Grit                       
Grit

Offline madlabs

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Re: To pump water , Help
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2012, 09:23:52 am »
Grit,

Seems like too slow a pump to run off straight solar. You would need around 8 hours of pump time a day to pump 700 gallons a day. That's assuming 1.47 gpm from 115 feet of head. I have a Shurflo 9300 and get around 2 gpm, and I run it more than would work from straight solar. I think you need a battery at least.

I originally ran a DC line all the way out to the well. I added a new tank and am moving the pressure pump and tank over to the well. I am going to run an AC line and use an effiecient 24V dc power supply that I bought. The float switch in the tank will be AC, so the power supply won't be wasting juice if the pump isn't running.

Any one have any review on the Nemo pump? Cheaper than the Shurflo. I have heard a bad things from some folks about the Shurflo, but mine has been done the well for 2.5 years so far and no problems. However, with my new garden it's going to start getting a work out, so we'll see what it can do.

Jonathan
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Offline Grit

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Re: To pump water , Help
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2012, 10:46:11 am »
TKS   OK your using a pressurized system, I had forgot to mention I have a gravity flow system.
A float switch in the tank. ok
The Nemo has a 2000 hr life the same as the Shurflo.   
The nemo uses a Flojet brand pump in a nemo casing ?
The specks>>http://www.nemosolar.com/dcsubmersiblepumps/id38.html
A big price difference in pumps.    Grit
Grit

Offline madlabs

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Re: To pump water , Help
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2012, 11:20:23 pm »
Grit,

Where are you see a life of 2000 hours? In my case that would only be 4000 gallons, and I have many times that on my pump. Typo?

Jonathan
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Offline rossw

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Re: To pump water , Help
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2012, 11:50:03 pm »
Where are you see a life of 2000 hours? In my case that would only be 4000 gallons, and I have many times that on my pump. Typo?

Interesting, thats about the figure I was quoted too.
I originally spent a small fortune on a shurflow 9300 series. It lasted less than 5 years of very intermittent use. Probably pumped around 120,000 litres (25,000 gallons).
When it failed, I tried to get parts. The local ripoff merchants wanted 50% of the original purchase price for bits to just refurb the pump, and about 90% of original purchase price if I also changed the motor like they "strongly advised".

Seems the seal is well known for its failures - although nobody tells you this at the time. I'm sure they told me (when I was trying to fix it) that it should be replaced and refurbed after about 2000 hrs.

I'll never buy another shurflo. Their support totally sucked. The price (close to $1,600 when I got it) is just total ripoff. I replaced it in the end, with a far far better pump. OK, runs on 240V AC only... takes 10 times the power but moves more than 10 times the water, made out of all quality brass and stainless, has no brushes, and cost 20% what the shurflow did (and that includes freight to get it here!)

Offline bj

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Re: To pump water , Help
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2012, 07:04:02 am »
   Like Ross, mine is 240volt.  It has been in the well since 1994.  I have a spare on hand, but no signs
of needing it yet.
   From a neighbors woes, I can tell you that they do not like to cavitate.  He was replacing his at least
once a year, but big family, silly water usage etc. meant they regularly pumped their well dry.  He finally
installed a pressure switch that has a low end cutoff.  (like mine)  If the pressure drops ten pounds
below cut-in, it drops out, and needs a manual reset.  Since then, (approx 5 years) same pump, no
problems.  I think the manual reset feature also taught them some usage lessons.
  Just for info
"Even a blind squirrel will find an acorn once in a while"
bj

Offline madlabs

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Re: To pump water , Help
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2012, 08:37:30 am »
Ross,

Bummed to hear that. Luckily I got my Shurflo for free, so if it goes sideways I won't cry. So far so good though.


Are there any other DC, low flow pumps, aside from the Nemo, which I am going to investigate? I'm not attached to the DC part, its that it pumps a small volume and no start up current rush. My well is a DIY affair, with a DIY well screen and I only get about 2.5-3 GPM, so I like a pump that outputs less than the well's recovery rate. Pumping a well dry routinely is a killer.

Jonathan
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Offline Grit

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Re: To pump water , Help
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2012, 12:07:32 pm »
  Madlabs  > Its under the use guide  >.3. FLOJET DIAPHRAGM FAILURE: If a diaphragm fails it will flood the case and the pump will stop running. However, the life of Flojet motor brushes is (very conservatively) rated at 2000 hours and a Flojet diaphragm will almost always last at least as long as the wear-down life of the motor brushes. An exception is where there is a substantial buildup of pressure inside the Nemo Case caused by excessive overheating of the Flojet motor. Such pressure can compromise the diaphragm and thus flood the case.
 
OK here's a change ?? I already have a 240 v pump in the well  What would it take to power it up with SOLAR ?   Cost ?   hummmm ---  battery's,   panels ??/   what the heck kind of inverter is my biggest question.     I have heard of a piggy  back , 2 inverters of lesser power  and use two 110 leg's  to make 220 v???     That really has me stumped . how to do that and, will it work. 

To me using 24v pump seams easier  I need enlightenment ????    My well is  25 GPM.     grit

Rossw    How do you power your pump ?? 
Grit

Offline tomw

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Re: To pump water , Help
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2012, 12:47:04 pm »
Grit;

Just need to come up with the numbers for use to size a system.

How long does it need to run per day, Week, Month?

How much power does the pump draw in use?

My submersible is @180 feet and is a 1 horse 240 volt pump. It happily runs from a dedicated 2500 watt 5,000 watt surge 240 volt inverter that is not a very high end unit. 24 volt bank. I have a huge bank compared to many (1350 AH). I "think" it is a sine wave inverter. but simple math tells me it uses less than a kilowatt to run at  a full horsepower. It could have a huge starting surge but I never checked what that might be.

Toss out some numbers if you didn't already and someone here will be able to help you sort out the system sizing.

The great part about submersibles is they are available at every farm store at reasonable cost as well as being a mature technology with the bugs worked out.

Just from here.

Tom
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Offline rossw

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Re: To pump water , Help
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2012, 04:27:33 pm »
OK here's a change ?? I already have a 240 v pump in the well  What would it take to power it up with SOLAR ?   Cost ?   hummmm ---  battery's,   panels ??/   what the heck kind of inverter is my biggest question.     I have heard of a piggy  back , 2 inverters of lesser power  and use two 110 leg's  to make 220 v???     That really has me stumped . how to do that and, will it work. 

Most systems will want a battery to provide the extra oomph to get the motor running.
That said, there are special inverters for pumps that "soft start" and run with solar panels alone and no battery.

Quote
To me using 24v pump seams easier  I need enlightenment ????    My well is  25 GPM.     grit

I thought the same thing. The shurflo I had was 12/24V. It took the same current either way, just pumped more water with 24V. A positive-displacement diaphram pump, but just not up to the job I was asking of it.
I certainly didn't realise at the time that the shurflo had brushes. For $1600, I expected ECM. I'd never knowingly bury a pump that's DESIGNED to wear out so quickly. Brushes in that application are just plain yucky. There's absolutely NO NEED for them. Arcing, sparking yuckyness that wears out, causes friction etc. Get with the modern age, guys! :)

Quote
Rossw    How do you power your pump ??

Originally, the shurflo was run from solar panels and a car battery. That was before the house was built.
Later, it was from 24V solar panels alone. That was while the house was being built.
Once we finished the house, it ran from a 24V transformer and rectifier. The transformer was fed from the 240V house supply when the top tank was low.
Once the thing failed for the 3rd time and I wasn't going to blow that much on a new one, I replaced it with the "real" pump, removed the transformer/rectifier and run the pump directly from the inverter as required. It takes under 1kW, and the inverter has plenty of headroom. When I ran the pipe (40mm poly) I ran several cables - two 16 sq mm (4AWG?) and 3 control lines (12AWG), so just run the pump off the heavy ones.

Offline Grit

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Re: To pump water , Help
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2012, 05:21:05 pm »
Rossw ---- Sounds like you have a distaste for the 24 volt. pump. but lots of hard earned knowledge. You have saved me a lot of heart ache and $$$$ already.I hope  I can help you someday..  Ya never know.    Tom has some good input going also.     Sounds like the inverter, powering the unit already in service is sounding better all the time.  Next  Grit.     Thank you
Grit

Offline rossw

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Re: To pump water , Help
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2012, 06:26:09 pm »
Rossw ---- Sounds like you have a distaste for the 24 volt. pump. but lots of hard earned knowledge. You have saved me a lot of heart ache and $$$$ already.

I just went and put a monitor on the pump and fired it up.

This picture shows the current it's drawing after running for a couple of minutes. The inset is the starting peak. (Both are in watts).


Grainy picture - I should have used the flash, sorry. Anyhow, it shows around 820-830 watts running and a start up peak of only 925 watts. That's not too bad IMHO.

Offline Grit

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Re: To pump water , Help
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2012, 07:52:41 pm »
Humm  My post dissapeared  try again.
Stats  - I have in the well now 1 HP - 220 v submersable pump  10 GPM--3 yrs old.
    Full is 1200  Max is 1600  Watts I presume  (as I just called the jobber)
Pump is set @ 230 feet.
 I use 1200 gal of water in the winter per month
 I use 600 gal a day in the summer. Lots of gardening
I use a 5000w generac to power it . works great.
 I have  480 watts of solar  -4 120 sun pannels  wired to 24 v
 C40 trace -
 Freedon inverter  1000 watt   24 volt.
2 diesel truck big 12 v batteries. new   This powers every thing except the washer.
                          So whatelse is required ???  More pv. more battery.
another c40 or?  for a diversion load   grit
Grit

Offline rossw

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Re: To pump water , Help
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2012, 08:39:40 pm »
    Full is 1200  Max is 1600  Watts I presume  (as I just called the jobber)

Quote
I use 1200 gal of water in the winter per month
 I use 600 gal a day in the summer. Lots of gardening
That takes 2 hours pump time per month in winter.
That's an hour a day pump time in summer.

Quote
I use a 5000w generac to power it . works great.
 I have  480 watts of solar
 Freedon inverter  1000 watt

So whatelse is required ???  More pv. more battery.
Your inverter is unlikely to run the pump based on what you've indicated here.
So you could stick with the generac, or you could get another, larger inverter for the pump.
2 hrs/month wouldn't justify it IMHO. Just run it when you have the generator running.
1 hr/day in summer is a different story though. I'm reluctant to suggest a cheap MSW inverter because I think mostly they're junk - but enough other people have had it work, YOU might get away with it too.
If the pump takes 1600 watts (lets say), and runs 1hr/day, that's 1600 watt-hours per day.
If you get 400 watts from your panels, you would need 4 full hours sun just to power the pump for that hour.
If you get that, AND you don't need the power for other things, you would likely manage, although the difference between the 1600W load and 400W panels (1200 watts) would have to come out of the batteries. At 12V, thats 100 amps. Are your batteries up to it? Suck 100 amps for an hour? I think that'd be a battery-killer in short order.

Do the maths for your costs and needs, but more battery and more solar would seem to be indicated.

Offline tomw

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Re: To pump water , Help
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2012, 08:42:18 pm »
Grit;

Back of the envelope figuring you need to run the pump 1 hour / day in summer and your heaviest use. That is roughly 1.5 KWH per 600 gallons. That takes about 4 hours per day of sun to replace with your panels. All assuming no losses and perfect conditions. I averaged the wattage to 1400 watts and that is likely high because the surges are only when the pump cycles. That pumping will use about 60 Amp Hours of 24 volt battery per day so the battery sizing needs to allow for some number of days storage for lean sun days. More panels might be needed but that is hard to know without info on the solar insolation there.

Your batteries are a mystery so that is another point that "depends".

Hope that help.

Tom
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I thought that they were angels, but much to my surprise, We climbed aboard their starship and headed for the skies