Anotherpower.com Forum
Renewable Energy Questions/Discussion => Wind and Hydro => Topic started by: dan5160 on September 30, 2013, 11:32:16 am
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I wanted to try my hand out on building my first wind generater with parts I have laying around the house/garage.I here that all DC motors put out some type of electric current as that's what I'm told.So,the search for a motor begins.I found a 6 volt electric kid scooter and took the motor out.My guess is this scooter is a 6 volt system.The sticker on the motor says 24 Volt 3,000 rpm.I don't have a voltage tester to see how much volts this little motor is putting out.The motor has two wires coming out of it as positive & ground.I wired a 12 volt car light bulb to the motor.Using a cordless drill I turned the motor shaft.The light bulb lit up nice and bright.
My cordless drill didn't have that much rpm's.I then,tried my electric drill to turn the motor shaft.While doing that I blowed the 12 volt light bulb.From what I see this motor is putting out 12 volts and a little bit more then that when/if more rpms applied.
My plan is to use this motor on a homemade "H" Wind generater.The motor shaft is a little hard to turn by fingers but,it does turn.
Since,the motor is a little hard to turn by fingers I attempted to add a small & larger pully belt thinking this would do two things one,take the strain off of turning the shaft and two,give me more rpms using pullys.My findings was,using belt drive caused the motor shaft harder to turn because,it required you to get the belt tight enough to grip to turn.I wish I had some gears But,I don't at this time.Now I'm stuck using direct drive.As mounting blades directly to the motor.Some maybe wondering why even attempt to build a wind generater that only puts out 12 volts.The answer to the wonders is,I want to wire a 12 volt/110 power inverter to this wind generater.If all works well,I will be able to power a single 110 house hold light bulb,electric can opener or what have ya.The thought is if ever the power would ever go out this will make a nice little backup to you by.
Here's my problems,
With the wind generater I want to have a constent 12 volt current running.My thinking to do this requires a 12 volt battery added to the system.
Let,me explain what I want to do,
When turning/spinning the motor it's putting out 12 volts.I want to take these 12 volt from the motor and use it to charge a 12 volt battery.The problem is,if I wire the motor to the battery causes the motor to run.I don't want the motor to run.
My question is,
How do I wire this motor to a 12 volt battery without having the motor running?
(Is there some type of relay or resister I need to add to this to do so?)Sounds like I need some type of voltage storage?What's my options please?
Thank You! Dan..
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Dan;
You need a bridge rectifier (or even a single diode) to block the motor from turning when attached to the battery.
A diode / rectifier is a one way "valve" for electricity, like a check valve on fluids only solid state electronic thing.
If you Google either rectifier or diode you will find much information.
Tom
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Sorry,I'm not that smart with this stuff.Where can I buy something like this at?What is it called as the part I need to buy?
bridge rectifier (or even a single diode)???
I think when I go into a store to ask for these parts they won't know what I'm talking about.Because,I don't know lol.
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Hey,TomW?
Please,read my other post I posted about cycle jerk generater?
If your correct on the part I need then I may just need the same part to fix this voltage regulater from burning out in my other post.
As bridge rectifier (or even a single diode)???
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Hey,TomW?
Please,read my other post I posted about cycle jerk generater?
If your correct on the part I need then I may just need the same part to fix this voltage regulater from burning out in my other post.
As bridge rectifier (or even a single diode)???
Who needs a regulator anyway?
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I wanted to try my hand out on building my first wind generater with parts I have laying around the house/garage.I here that all DC motors put out some type of electric current as that's what I'm told.So,the search for a motor begins.I found a 6 volt electric kid scooter and took the motor out.My guess is this scooter is a 6 volt system.The sticker on the motor says 24 Volt 3,000 rpm.I don't have a voltage tester to see how much volts this little motor is putting out.The motor has two wires coming out of it as positive & ground.I wired a 12 volt car light bulb to the motor.Using a cordless drill I turned the motor shaft.The light bulb lit up nice and bright.
My cordless drill didn't have that much rpm's.I then,tried my electric drill to turn the motor shaft.While doing that I blowed the 12 volt light bulb.From what I see this motor is putting out 12 volts and a little bit more then that when/if more rpms applied.
My plan is to use this motor on a homemade "H" Wind generater.The motor shaft is a little hard to turn by fingers but,it does turn.
Since,the motor is a little hard to turn by fingers I attempted to add a small & larger pully belt thinking this would do two things one,take the strain off of turning the shaft and two,give me more rpms using pullys.My findings was,using belt drive caused the motor shaft harder to turn because,it required you to get the belt tight enough to grip to turn.I wish I had some gears But,I don't at this time.Now I'm stuck using direct drive.As mounting blades directly to the motor.Some maybe wondering why even attempt to build a wind generater that only puts out 12 volts.The answer to the wonders is,I want to wire a 12 volt/110 power inverter to this wind generater.If all works well,I will be able to power a single 110 house hold light bulb,electric can opener or what have ya.The thought is if ever the power would ever go out this will make a nice little backup to you by.
Here's my problems,
With the wind generater I want to have a constent 12 volt current running.My thinking to do this requires a 12 volt battery added to the system.
Let,me explain what I want to do,
When turning/spinning the motor it's putting out 12 volts.I want to take these 12 volt from the motor and use it to charge a 12 volt battery.The problem is,if I wire the motor to the battery causes the motor to run.I don't want the motor to run.
My question is,
How do I wire this motor to a 12 volt battery without having the motor running?
(Is there some type of relay or resister I need to add to this to do so?)Sounds like I need some type of voltage storage?What's my options please?
Thank You! Dan..
One more suggestion and I'll leave this one alone; This is as simple, cheap and easy as it gets for those that don't know.... Make sure the battery is dead before you hook the motor to it. Hey, won't spin when hooked up. The charged battery is probably what is ruining your regulator, after all, your 6v motor is putting out so much BS it is blocking the cooling flow over the fins.
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A motor rated 24 volts at 3000 RPM will need to turn at 1500 RPM to generate 12 volts. The battery will not be fully charged unless you can get it up to 14.7 volts. You will need to spin that motor up to 1838 RPM to fully charge a battery. You will need a different motor if you want to use it for a wind generator.
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Update/recap on things for better understanding what I want to do.
I have the wind generater built and mounted on a pole outside.I installed a bearing so the wind generater will turn towards the wind freely.I also,installed a stopper so the wind generater won't turn all the way around so the wires won't get tangled/twisted.
The problem I'm having now is the wind generater won't find the wind properly as it should.Or let's say won't aim towards the wind when it should.And sometimes it aims backwards.
Do I need a bigger tale fin to help aim towards the wind?
This motor I'm using on this wind generater I built is from a 6 volt kid 2 wheel scooter.It says on the motor 6 volt/24 volt/3,000 RPMS.
On a low rpm drill when turning the shaft of the motor I can light up a 12 volt light bulb.
Here's my full plan what i want to do,
I want to use this wind generater to charge a 12 volt battery.
The battery will power a 12/volt/110 power inverter.Plug in a house hold lamp we have lite.That's the plan.....
My plan isn't going so will,
If I wire this motor to a battery will cause,the motor to run.I don't want the motor to run at all.
What can I do?I was told I need some type of Dieode or something like a one way current valve .I only want to charge a 12 volt battery with this wind generater.I don't want the batter to power/turn on the motor to the wind generater if you know what I mean?
I was also,told I need a charger controller so the wind generater don't over charge the battery and blow up.
Can I use any car/truck 12 volt voltage regulater to do this?
Some maybe wondering why I just don't use a 12 volt GM alternater.The reason is Because,I think this 6 volt motor I'm using puts out more juice at less rpms then a alternater would.And a alternater requires 6,000 rpms over this motor at 1,800-3,000 rpms.
To sume this all up,I need help with 3 questions please?
(1)How do I wire this motor/generater to the battery without the battery making the motor run?
(2)For a charger controller can I use a example Ford voltage regulater?
(3)The wind generater has problems aiming towards the wind and staying there.It turns on a bearing as free spin.Do I need to make the tale bigger?
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A motor rated 24 volts at 3000 RPM will need to turn at 1500 RPM to generate 12 volts. The battery will not be fully charged unless you can get it up to 14.7 volts. You will need to spin that motor up to 1838 RPM to fully charge a battery. You will need a different motor if you want to use it for a wind generator.
Well,from what I was told a standard GM Alternater requires 6,000 rpms to reach 14.7 volts for the basic 12 volt charging system.
Your telling me that my motor only requires 1838 rpms to reach 14.7 volts?If that's the case,I'm in the ball park area.
I wired a 12 volt car head light to this motor.I used a 18 volt cordless drill to turn the shaft of the motor.This cordless drill I have is a old Black & Decker drill.I'm sure the rpms isn't that high of speed on this drill I have.When,I hit the trigger on my drill the 12 volt light bulb lit up nice and brite.So,I tried my electric drill on this motor shaft.Using a electric drill the light bulb burned up/blowed/smoked.
So,I'm sure this motor is able to exceed 14.7 volts.The more rpms you apply to this motor the more juice you get.
I want to use this wind generater with this 6 volt motor to charge a 12 volt battery.I'm not after a 1 hour charger.The wind generater will have all morning & afternoon time to charge a battery up.The only time the battery will be used is at night.
As of now,I have the wind generater on a pole outside as we speak with a 12 volt car head light wired to it.Lighting up the sky as we speak.Takes more juice to run a car head light then it does to run a standard brack lite or tale lite bulb is my thinking.
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1. A longer tail will help you stay in the wind.
2. You need a dump load on your battery... definitely not a regulator... you don't want to unload a windmill, as it will run out of control if the load is released. You need a comparator or similar to turn on a load and use the excess voltage that would otherwise overcharge your battery... ie when the voltage approaches 14.7v, turn on a load that pulls the voltage back down to 14.5, then release, then pull in then release etc etc. and hold the voltage around the 14.5v for battery that you are going to cycle each day. Float would be around 13.7v, but for playing with , 14.2-14.7 is fine. Your car will run around 14.5v because it is cyclic in nature. Full time will be lower maybe 13.7v.
A Ghurd controller will help you do this, inexpensive but useful.
3. You need to google diode, and understand what it is and how it works. Then you will need to get a feel for your max current you expect, and buy one with at least double that current at at least 3 times the expected voltage.... or use an old alternator's diode block, and rewire that . ( should be 2 banks of three in there to play with)
,
4. Once you hook the motor to the battery, the mills voltage will come down to match the battery voltage, as it has a low internal impedance.
The open circuit voltage of your motor is a function of the rpm/volt . If you have say 50 rpm/volt, then 250 rpm will be 5v. The faster the thing runs, then higher the voltage proportionately.
5. Under load, the motor output will be a function of the rpm and the synchronous impedance of the motor...... a big word, but thats the facts. Once generating under load, the impedance ( incorporating the resistance of the wiring and brushes etc) and the inductive reactance as a function of frequency, coupled with the armature reactance and state of charge of the battery, will dictate the output...... but as a given, it will be pulled down to the terminal voltage of the battery. The current will be governed by the synchronous impedance of the motor at that frequency ( and battery impedance at that voltage). It is complex magnetics, and there is no simple way of making firm predictions, and is best found by bench testing into a load to get an idea of how the current increases and the voltage increases/droops , and the relationship with the state of charge of the battery.. not simple to explain, but easy to see on a bench test ( your drill driving the motor driving the battery and taking voltage and current measurements at different rpm with different state of charge of the battery..). This is not a simple subject, but can be fun to suck it and see.
6. Once you have grappled with the magnetics and their characteristics ....re power at what rpms, then you can wrestle with the correct TSR and size of blades to use for best effect of that motor and expected battery bank voltage.
Very difficult to give concrete advise with what you have there.
...............oztules
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Update/recap on things for better understanding what I want to do.
I have the wind generator built and mounted on a pole outside.I installed a bearing so the wind generator will turn towards the wind freely.I also,installed a stopper so the wind generator won't turn all the way around so the wires won't get tangled/twisted.
You won't need a stopper. Most of us have enough slack which allows for the wire to wind a couple of times around the pole....you'll find that usually it will average out .....winding up a little one direction way ....then unwinding as it turns in the opposite direction etc.
you'll probably find that it averages out and never really fully winds up.
What happens with your stopper is that the wind can change so that it goes against the
stopper and the wind is changing even more but the windmill can't take advantage of the
wind that has changed even more because of that ^%$$&^%* Stopper !
hope this helps
Norm :)
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1. A longer tail will help you stay in the wind.
2. You need a dump load on your battery... definitely not a regulator... you don't want to unload a windmill, as it will run out of control if the load is released. You need a comparator or similar to turn on a load and use the excess voltage that would otherwise overcharge your battery... ie when the voltage approaches 14.7v, turn on a load that pulls the voltage back down to 14.5, then release, then pull in then release etc etc. and hold the voltage around the 14.5v for battery that you are going to cycle each day. Float would be around 13.7v, but for playing with , 14.2-14.7 is fine. Your car will run around 14.5v because it is cyclic in nature. Full time will be lower maybe 13.7v.
A Ghurd controller will help you do this, inexpensive but useful.
3. You need to google diode, and understand what it is and how it works. Then you will need to get a feel for your max current you expect, and buy one with at least double that current at at least 3 times the expected voltage.... or use an old alternator's diode block, and rewire that . ( should be 2 banks of three in there to play with)
,
4. Once you hook the motor to the battery, the mills voltage will come down to match the battery voltage, as it has a low internal impedance.
The open circuit voltage of your motor is a function of the rpm/volt . If you have say 50 rpm/volt, then 250 rpm will be 5v. The faster the thing runs, then higher the voltage proportionately.
5. Under load, the motor output will be a function of the rpm and the synchronous impedance of the motor...... a big word, but thats the facts. Once generating under load, the impedance ( incorporating the resistance of the wiring and brushes etc) and the inductive reactance as a function of frequency, coupled with the armature reactance and state of charge of the battery, will dictate the output...... but as a given, it will be pulled down to the terminal voltage of the battery. The current will be governed by the synchronous impedance of the motor at that frequency ( and battery impedance at that voltage). It is complex magnetics, and there is no simple way of making firm predictions, and is best found by bench testing into a load to get an idea of how the current increases and the voltage increases/droops , and the relationship with the state of charge of the battery.. not simple to explain, but easy to see on a bench test ( your drill driving the motor driving the battery and taking voltage and current measurements at different rpm with different state of charge of the battery..). This is not a simple subject, but can be fun to suck it and see.
6. Once you have grappled with the magnetics and their characteristics ....re power at what rpms, then you can wrestle with the correct TSR and size of blades to use for best effect of that motor and expected battery bank voltage.
Very difficult to give concrete advise with what you have there.
...............oztules
Thank you for your time and help.You hit it on the nose.
Now it comes to mind to just get two GM alternater to turn lol.
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You may consider using the 12 volts straight off the battery instead of using an inverter to increase the voltage. This method is more efficient and will not drain your battery so fast. The amperage that you use on the 120 volt side of the inverter is multiplied 10 times from the battery. If you use an inverter and you are using 1 amp at 120vac, the inverter will pull 10 amps from the battery, then the inverter uses 10% more to do the conversion to the higher voltage.
I have a small solar power system and I am using automotive items straight off the 12vdc battery, plus I am powering other 12 volt devices such as a modem and router. Here is my system as it is right now, it would work just fine charging from a wind generator too.
http://timmythy.home.mindspring.com/re-power.htm
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(You may consider using the 12 volts straight off the battery instead of using an inverter to increase the voltage. )
In reply:
My thoughts are with direct drive 12 volt GM alternater you will not get 110 volts.As a GM alternater's peak for 14.7 volt range is 6,000 RPMs.If anyone has ever attempted to installl a dead battery in their car and jump start the engine to get the engine running.Their findings would be ,it take over a hour plus to fully charge a battery in a car's 12 volt system.When your car won't start as requires a jump start.After the engine is jumped started.Some think they are good to go.Some think they can drive around the block and their battery is fully charged as safe to shut the engine off for a restart.That is not true.Takes much longer to charge a battery then people think.And also,the best way to charge a battery is very low as 1-3 amp as slow time,slow charge as over night over a boost charger.
Some may differ what I just said above and welcome to do so.But,unless you attempted,did it.Your numbers are here say.
Anyway,
Yes,my plan is to run off the 12 volt battery.Why?So,I can maintain 12 volts.A alternater will not maintain 12 volts as the volts ,amps will very by wind,rpms.
My thought is to use a Alternator - 170 Amp High Output Delco 36SI Series for Freightliner, IHC, Kenworth, Peterbilt, Trucks for a wind generater.any thoughts?
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Have you had a talk with the guys at Missouri wind and solar or Hurricane wind power? They sell a bunch of the alternator based get ups.
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Yes, you can use a car alternator ( or truck what ever ), but it is not generally done as it is a very difficult way to do it.
If you design some interesting electronics to drive the rotor, and gear it up to a fan, you will probably have a useful device....
If you stretch your mind a bit, you must throw out the regulator for a start, as it will stall the mill. It will try to drive full power out straight away. This will cost you magnetizing current ( about 5A) and stall the blades the moment start up rpm is achieved.
If I had no choice, I would build a mppt rotor exciting device to replace the regulator, and chain drive it to a fan. Press a small magnet into the rotor to get start up trickle for the electronics......This stands a chance of working..... but there are lots of better ways to do it.... mostly like everyone else does it. Matching the power of the blades to the load of the alternator is the key..... hence the complicated regulator you would have to design. You will also have the current to drive the rotor current to pencil into your calculations, but it is doable.
It is something most folks will leave alone, but it could ( with the right electronics) be a useful windmill, as you would be able to control the load to the blades, and solve the linear/squared/cubed problems associated with most mill heads. But is NOT simple at all.
Strongly advise against this route though for a newbie.
Perhaps try normal stuff first.
...................oztules
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Just fyI a standard alternator will not do the job well, or if at all. They have been used, with mods.. but even then there are certainly other off the shelf repurposed items that would work better, and much easier. Most can be had for little if any extra cost. I'm sure there are plenty of examples others here can name. Old tape drive motors come to mind. Ive seen some older wheelchair motors and such.
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Once upon a time I would agree with that summation, but after working with them with my regulators, I'm not so sure.
They develop quite high current at quite low rpm.... typically 800 or so rpm will still keep up 5-10A into a 12v battery in low state of charge ( 11-12v), and thats a small one.
I think it just has not been done well previously. All attempts I have witnessed so far have not been done as I would do it. I think in a decent wind regime they would actually shine. Folks trying to get something in winds less than 12mph or so will be better with the axial flux units, but in 13 mph upwards, I think the humble stock car alternator ( minus the regulator, but with the three little diodes for the regulator supply left in tact ) would be found to be very competitive, and completely controllable..... something we cant do with perm magnet devices without buck and boost converters.
For folks without electronic design experience it will end in tears though....
............oztules
PS, if I had my stuff in a journal ( hint ), I think there is a story on alternator chargers, and possibly a regulator circuit that could be altered for this purpose. I think it is on this site.
EDIT: Yes it is on this site.... for those wanting a fairly detailed look at car alts, then
here: http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,492.0.html
and here: http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,500.0.html
And it looks like wolv is the only person to have read it too.
I suggest Dan read it as well.
That regulator is ok for human load matching with the volume control, but not for a windmill. I would probably start out with a TL494 and use the two op amps built in and the dead time control to effect an analogue mppt.. perhaps beat the frequency against the current in the two op amps ( different gains) and the dead time to soften the hysterisis... no ... I havent thought this through really, but I would start with this and see what happened. :o
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PS, if I had my stuff in a journal ( hint )
Ye only had t' ever let us know you wanted one and it'd be done.
<waves magic wand>
There you go, Oz. Enthrall us with your wisdom sir!
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Not quite Ross
You will find Wolv knows of the request.
Thanks for the journal, but as I asked Wolv, it needs to be populated with all the stories where i was the thread starter..... ie a journal with all my projects in the one place so i can find them, and direct folks to them.
Is your wand able to do that which this software is unable ( but scoop was).
....... oztules
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OZ, I saw where the second thread was read 806 times and the first thread, 3286 times. I hope you know a lot of us are paying attention and admire you and the time you have spent on your write-ups. Thank you sir!
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As far as the turbine and motor selection, the GE ECM motors 1/2hp to 1 HP are a good place to start. I have a few. So does Ghurd. You can sometimes find them on Ebay.
Fairly easy to use, minimum wiring work , and just use a bridge rectifier to your batteries. You may want to get one of Ghurd's controllers for a dump load, but for initial testing to batteries , probably not necessary
Rover
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Rover : "the GE ECM motors 1/2hp to 1 HP are a good place to start. I have a few. So does Ghurd"
Ah yes Indeed they are!
The one I have on the PedGen is one that Ghurd sold to me .
A bit of overkill for the PedGen unless you are a gorilla !
but someday I'll use it on a windmill.
about 40 rpm of the pedalcrank (1:8 ratio of the alternator) it charges a 12 volt battery
at about 25 watts with about as much effort as walking!
Norm.
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Yeah I think he might still be mad at me for grabbing a 1 HP off of Ebay for like $25 a 2 years or so ago.... might have been a little more, my brain is a bit foggy.
This was a new one.
Its the only 1 HP I have, I have a few now seriously modified 1/2 and 3/4 HP ones.
They were used for experiments, documented elsewhere, along with treadmill motors etc. The ECM is still the best IMHO for a small wind turbine, if you understand what it's limits are and are content with a low power, small blade diameter, fast spinning turbine. They beat the commercial Air .. whatever model , hands down, but that is not saying much.
Rover
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Thanks for the journal, but as I asked Wolv, it needs to be populated with all the stories where i was the thread starter..... ie a journal with all my projects in the one place so i can find them, and direct folks to them.
oztules
You can direct AnotherPower forum members to your journal but nonmember guests will not be able to see your journal
dan5160
Building a wind generator is not very difficult. I built a 200watt genny without any welding
http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,211.0.html
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oztules
You can direct AnotherPower forum members to your journal but nonmember guests will not be able to see your journal
Woofer, we can actually set them to be whatever permissions are required.
I'm 99% sure I let oztules journals be read by anyone - even guests.
Would appreciate if someone would try it next time before they log in, or log out and check.
(Oz, if that's NOT what you want, better shoot me a message and say (eg) "I only want forum members to be able to read thanks!")
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Yes, I write this dribble so others can read it. I don't want it to be secret that I'm a klutz.
Woof, thats a cool unit... but it only counts if you get it dirty..... is it up yet?
..........oztules
PS Sorry Dan, I have polluted your thread. My apologies
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The second apology to Dan, but because Ross asked, I can see Oz's journal when I'm logged in,
or logged out.
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Woof, thats a cool unit... but it only counts if you get it dirty..... is it up yet?
I built that 200w generator 10 years ago and it has never seen any wind. Right now it is out in a shed doing nothing. I am going through a divorce and will probably be moving soon. The new house is in a very bad wind location so I may have to make a pedal generator out of it.