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Renewable Energy Questions/Discussion => Automation, Controls, Inverters, MPPT, etc => Topic started by: Pete on July 27, 2021, 12:44:22 am

Title: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on July 27, 2021, 12:44:22 am
I recently bought one of those 8010 based inverter boards, it has everything on it all that is needed is to add a transformer and a few bits and presto an inverter is built.
My problem is that I accidentally killed the board. I connected it up to two small batteries with some jumper leads and smoke came from the leads. Yep not enough light on the bench, old eyes and reversed the polarity of the board.
So now all I get when I power it up the right way is a LED telling me that power is there.
The 8010 board has a LED but it does not light up.
I checked the MOSFETs and they appear fine, fortunately my tiny hookup leads seemed to act as current limiters.
Just wondering if anyone has a circuit of one of these chinese pure sinewave inverters.
It would make fixing it much easier if one were available.
Of course when a manufacturer doesn't even have the confidence to put their name on a board one wonders if they bother to do a circuit diagram.
My inverter is a 24 volt 5000 watt board from Ebay.
Thanks
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: lighthunter on July 31, 2021, 12:50:45 pm
Hi Pete! no worries, these are about the easiest board there is to repair. Especially if the Fets are still good. There is an EGS002 board on it with a socket. Id recommend just replacing it. I got 5 for $30. Individually they can be had for $8.00 when you get the new one find a magnifyer glass and make sure the jumpers are set to your liking. Frequency 50/60 dead time etc, just copy jumper settings from your old board. I will see if i can send manual.

Then make sure fets and caps are good, you already did.

Next there is a tiny 24 to 12v 3 pin buck regulator board near the edge. You will need to make sure it works. The pins should be labeled. Vout, gnd, vin. 

I would remove the egs002 board, apply power to board through a fuse or small wire and then verify 12v, if thats good and the tiny relay clicks and green light turns on then all you have left is plug in the new egs002 board and away you go. If tiny relay doesnt work, then the housekeeping chip got hurt, its an LM324 quad comparator i think, two options, replace it or just tie your on/off circuit to the tiny relay coil (observe polarity, there is a diode across it. You can get 12v to power it from the tiny converter.  If the tiny 12v converter is hurt you could just get a new one of those too or your own 12v supply. If you wanted to fix the egs002 board it could be done but not likely worth it. Pretty much just replace the driver ics and 8010. If you think the FETs are perfect yet id be really careful about using/repairing the egs002. A wounded egs002 could wipe out those fets quickly. As cheap as those 002 boards are it just makes sense to have a few on hand.   

Those boards have virtually no labels on em so maybe grab a sharpie or black marker of your flavor and write +24 on the heat sink Gnd etc..   I can see how that could happen the way they are labeled.  The 5500w is fairly accurate as well. I hurt one by letting two grid ties go at it with 5.8kw of incoming power, so maybe keep it to 4500 to be safe. They are better than PJ when it comes to holding the voltage down, if i remember i had it set to 240 v and i think it only rose to 244.

I just reread your post and it is possible the only thing wrong with yours is the lm324 chip. You can remove it and just power the tiny relay on and you might be running. Again, use care by removing caps and supply with resistor or some trick to protect fets id hate to see you loose those now when they are worth more than all the rest of the bits.

Good luck! I believe youll have it running in no time!
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on July 31, 2021, 06:01:50 pm
Thanks a lot LH.
I have been tangled up with other jobs around home but so far have replaced the 5 volt regulator and the LM324.
Fortunately I had those in my parts boxes.
I also have a couple of spare 8010 boards so will try changing that too.
The 8010 board that is on the inverter board has two rows of pins, but checking them they seem to be paralleled up.
So hoping the normal single row board will work.
I have not seen any other 8010 boards on ebay with two rows of pins yet. Anyway as they are just paralleled I guess that it is just for solidity that they did that.
Thanks for the tips,
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: lighthunter on July 31, 2021, 06:24:48 pm
Hi Pete!

Careful, im pretty sure thats a 12v regulator, if you put a 5 in there the Fets need more voltage to turn fully on and it just may work with a lot of heat.

I know you want a print of whole board, i do not have. Aside from the 324 and two transistor switches and 12v regulator there isnt isnt much else to go wrong with the board that wouldnt be visible. Just follow your nose and look it over with a magnifier and power up with provisions of limiting current and it will be that easy.

Heres a few photos of the 002 manual.
(Yes i agree, the 2 rows of pins are just for rigidity.) I realize now you have the 24fet board, you better check the fet drivers somehow too. Those 24 Fets would be $50 to replace here, so worth protecting. Maybe popping caps out and feed power with a resistor would be safest until you know the gate signals look healthy.
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on July 31, 2021, 10:06:51 pm
Thanks again LH.
The 5 volt regulator I changed, as far as I could see sent 5 volts to the 8010 board, it was definitely a 7805 regulator.
There seems to be 12 volts there on the board, the LED lights up when I power it up.
With a bit of luck I will get back to it tomorrow and reconnect the trannie etc.
Hopefully replacing the Op amp will have done the trick
Cheers
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: lighthunter on August 01, 2021, 05:43:48 am
Your right Pete, theres a tiny version of it next to the 002, sorry, i was thinking of the larger regulator.
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: noneyabussiness on August 01, 2021, 05:05:24 pm
https://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php?topic=1116.15 (https://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php?topic=1116.15)

make sure you do this mod as Oz describes on first post... makes all the difference with " tight " transformers like toroidals...
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on August 01, 2021, 05:26:56 pm
Thanks Noneya, I will read more what Oz said about it. Seems that they tried to be too clever for our own good.
Should not be too hard to remove the 393 chip.
From what I have seen looking at the 8010 board things are pretty tight but I will see when I get a chance to look at it again.
Thanks to both LH and Noneya,
It is great to have advice on these things. Too much smoke at times gets to me. Since I added the capacitor bank to my batteries the PowerJack is behaving well. The Oz article makes me wonder if PJ have gone overboard with short circuit protection too.
If it blows again I will  just replace the boards with the 8010 boards.
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on August 02, 2021, 12:57:08 am
Just an update.
So I pulled the LM324 and replaced it. Today I got around to working on it again.
I powered it up but no go other than the Power LED lighting up.
Then I decided to measure the LM324 voltages. First I measured the supply and it was fine 12 volts on the V+ and V- pins.
While measuring the voltages on the comparitors I accidentally shorted the pins on pin 1 and 2, well the inverter powered up.
The LED on the 8010 board came on and the transformer hummed very quietly.
So i plugged in a load and the output came up and the light lit up.
But after about 5 seconds it shuts down. I have to short pin 2 to pin 1 on the LM324 to get it to start.
Fortunately I had put in a socket for the chip so I pulled the LM324 out and the inverter runs fine.
I am guessing that the OP amp controls things like Over and Under voltage and over current so will have to spend a bit more time sorting out what component is causing the problem.
At least I know that the inverter goes and even the original 8010 board works fine.
So that is the update
thanks
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: lighthunter on August 02, 2021, 08:14:48 am
Great work Pete! If you have other ways to handle over and under volts etc, you may not need that stuff. The schematic of the 002 board is worth having a look for the voltage feedback, that connection is necessar to control the throttle. It should come through the little transformer and over to the 002 board.

The 8010 has its own protection for AC voltage too high or too low and it will shut the inverter down if they are not ok. The LED on the 002 board should blink a code to tell you what ails it.

Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: solarnewbee on October 25, 2021, 10:26:40 am
I’m thinking of using this same thing with the PJ power boards from my 15kW that blew when they’re repaired some day in the near future. Just have to trace out that ribbon cable!
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: lighthunter on October 26, 2021, 08:37:36 am
Ive not done this but from memory, Oz did in his egs002 thread at the beginning, seems like he changed the resistor values and maybe snubber caps. He said something like the gate waveform wasnt healthy until he did this.
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: noneyabussiness on October 26, 2021, 05:50:41 pm
definitely change the 47 ohm
gate resistors to at least 10 ohm ( 4.7 ohm on official schematic) also the anti- parallel diodes ( common 1n4148 sufficient) if you are converting a PJ board... the 47ohm will distort the waveform and cause problems...
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: noneyabussiness on October 26, 2021, 05:55:20 pm
also, the snubbers are fine, but will heat more than when
using the PJ control gear... as the mosfets turn on / off significantly faster
with the eg8010, which can / will cause a increase in " noise " ... when I originally used a PJ board I just changed the snubber resistor to a 5 watt verson ( same resistance) was overkill but I like reliability... Ill try and find it, but OZ did post a " pinout " of the 10 pin connector, easy enough to do it yourself though...
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on November 02, 2021, 11:18:10 pm
I have just received a 5kw 24 volt 8010 board. I have hooked it up to a transformer that came out of an 8kw powerjack.
Just wondering if anyone knows what voltages powerjack wind their transformers for.
I cannot adjust the output voltage to get more than 208 volts AC
I measured the transformer primary and my meter says it is getting 19 volts.
Looking at the specs of the Sunyima boards they suggest a 12 to 14 volt primary for their 3kw board.
The board that I received is a no name board with the usual, no specs, no diagrams. I have managed to get it to work but need to up the output voltage.
I thought of putting a resistor in the feedback circuit to trick the unit into upping the primary voltage.
When i adjust the output voltage pot above the 208 volt output all is does is cause the inverter to shut down.
Anyone have any ideas, on whether dropping the voltage the board sees will trick this thing into at least giving me 230 volts.
Thanks
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on November 03, 2021, 01:29:23 am
I took the transformer out of the inverter and found a label on it, it say it is an 18 volt to 240 transformer.
There were fairly long leads on it so I wound 1 more turn around the core, and the highest output I could get was 204 volts.
Seems that I will have to wait until tomorrow and try unwinding one turn from the original and see what difference that makes.
Like I said the Sunyima  boards want 12 to 14 volts on the primary, so will see what tomorrow brings
pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on November 04, 2021, 11:25:16 pm
With a bit of help and experimenting it works.
Turns out that taking two turns off the primary of the transformer was what was needed.
My head was trying to tell me that I needed to add turns to get more voltage out, but the reverse ended up being true.
So now I can wind it up to 240 volts and it only draws 0.8 amps on idle.
I found another torroid inductor core in my shed and added a second inductor to the primary and it hums so quietly that it is hard to tell it is on at all.
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: rossw on November 05, 2021, 04:58:54 am
My head was trying to tell me that I needed to add turns to get more voltage out, but the reverse ended up being true.

You need to remember that it's a "RATIO" device.

If it has 10 turns on the primary and 200 turns on the secondary, then it'd be a 1:20 ratio.
If you put 12V in the primary you'd expect 20* that on the secondary (240)

To get more volts out, you have to increase the RATIO, which means either adding more turns on the secondary (eg, adding 40 turns on the secondary would make it 10:240 = 1:24) or reducing turns on the primary (eg, taking two off would make it 8:200 = 1:25)
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on November 05, 2021, 04:38:21 pm
Thanks Ross, my muddled thinking at first was that a 1:1 transformer had the same turns on the primary and secondary.
So at first I tried increasing the primary winding by one turn. That failed dismally.
Then I took one turn off and things looked rosier.
So I took two off and it worked fine.
I am guessing that taking turns off increases the primary current and therefore the magnetic flux.
I didn't see much on an increase in idle current so am pretty happy with how it worked out.
Now I just have to do some wiring changes so that I can quickly change inverters by moving plugs in the event of a failure.
thanks
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: rossw on November 05, 2021, 07:05:51 pm
Thanks Ross, my muddled thinking at first was that a 1:1 transformer had the same turns on the primary and secondary.

Well yes, a 1:1 transformer would have the same number of turns on primary and secondary, otherwise it wouldn't be 1:1 :)

Quote
I am guessing that taking turns off increases the primary current and therefore the magnetic flux.

It shouldn't significantly change the current in and of itself.
In an "ideal" transformer, the power into the primary will be transferred perfectly to the secondary, even in an air-cored transformer (with no iron or ferrite core). If you put in 1 watt on one side, you'd get one watt out the other side, and this is where the turns ratio comes in to play.
If you have 10 turns on the primary, or 100 turns, or 1000 turns, doesn't matter. If you have the same on the secondary (so it would be a 1:1 RATIO), if you put in 1 watt at 10 volts, that's 100mA of current in the primary, and also 10 volts at 100mA out the secondary.
If you had 1:10 ratio (so 10 turns primary and 100 secondary, or 100 primary and 1000 secondary), the voltage out the secondary will be 10 times what is on the primary. (Think if each turn as a single turn winding, all connected in series like tiny little batteries).
With a 1:10 (step-up), 1W at 10V in will produce 1W at 100V out (so only 10mA).

Connecting the transformer the opposite way (calling the secondary the "primary") would make it 10:1 (stepdown).
100V in would give 10V out, at 10 times the current. (This is how welders get such high current).

I'll leave CTs (Current Transformers) as a thought exercise. If you have a single turn primary (typically a busbar or conductor) and some thousands of turns (for the secondary), why the burden resistor is absolutely critical, even though it may be passing very low current!
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on November 05, 2021, 08:52:31 pm
Thanks again Ross, I get you. I have been changing wiring over today, to make it easy to connect either of my inverters quickly.
The 1:1 transformer I was thinking of was an isolation transformer.
Somehow even though i know the transformer equations my brain did not follow on.
Once I measured the voltages things became clearer.
Thanks again
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: lighthunter on November 06, 2021, 05:38:21 am
Good work Pete, you wont regret getting that one set up right. Im convinced the 8010 units can run for years with zero failures. Very few PJs can say that at least the earlier ones. Seem to have sold a lot of replacement parts. :)
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on November 06, 2021, 04:23:22 pm
Thanks LH, I did the chip deletion act on the 8010 board last night. Today is testing day.
After having two different powerjacks blow up a couple of times , I now see them as good for their transformers.
As we are totally off grid I want to have reliable inverters and also spares.
So now i have two 8010 based inverters , a 3kw and a 5kw. ( realistically on 24 volt I would not rate them past 2 and 3kw.
I also have a 2.3 kw Latronics inverter, so spares are there for blowups if they happen.
I have them setup now with 175 amp anderson plugs so that they are fast changeover.
Thanks for the help in the past and advice about Oz's modifications.
I did find a torroid inductor core and added it to the other transformer leg.
One thing I noticed is that the 8kw PowerJack transformer is wound with aluminium. They must have done that for cheapness and ease of winding the primary I guess.
Cheers
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on November 17, 2021, 04:08:18 pm
Just wondering if any of you that have 8010 based inverters have checked how much load they can carry.
With my 5kw board it shuts down claiming low voltage input. I have checked and watched it when it does and it shuts down at around 23.7 volts input.
I have tried adjusting the low voltage cutout pot but it makes no difference.
This happens when running a 2300 watt kettle.
I am thinking that I may have to take the board out and trace the circuit to allow the low voltage cutout to be adjusted more.
The kettle runs when the sun is out but when we really want it to work first thing in the morning it says NO. Once the panels lift the voltage it is fine.
Hope all is well with everyone
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: noneyabussiness on November 18, 2021, 01:38:22 pm
personally,  I bypassed the op amp shut down for that but sorry can't remember exactly how... board is buried now.. but possible... would kick in under heavy loads and just got annoying..
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on November 18, 2021, 03:14:35 pm
Thanks for the reply noneya. It does sound like a good idea.
I am looking at tracing out where the pot connects to and seeing if i can either change the pot or add a resistor to allow more adjustment.
Or maybe just delete the op amp.
Thanks again
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: lighthunter on November 18, 2021, 06:23:22 pm
Hi Pete!

My thoughts on your question are...   look at the red LED when it shuts down. There are several possibilities as listed in the EGS002 datasheet. My guess is yours is shutting down from low AC output voltage so adjusting the pot for the dc minimum will have no effect.

On the other hand maybe youve already done this and know its low DC volts triggering it. I can run my 48v 5500w board down to 46v equal to 23v for yours with no issue. I did have to lower my AC output setpoint to 214v to get there so when i hit 48V im still close to 240v and drops with input DC to 214/107 at 46. Another controller switches it to grid at battery % so unless very heavily loaded on the lead acid, it never operates there. Ive not seeen outgoing loads more than 2500w but it backcharges to 4000 on a regular basis. I did see one fail at 5kw backcharging so guessin that be a number to stay away from.

One other thought, my 12xhy4008 boards are rated for 5500w at 48v but 3000 at 24v since the current is double so keep that in mind. Yours may be different.

:)

Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on November 18, 2021, 07:20:59 pm
Thanks LH, my board is flashing the code for low input DC voltage. 4 flashes then a gap then flashes again. Then it tries to start again and shuts itself down.
It only happens with a 2300 watt and above load.
I will try lowering the output voltage and see if it makes any difference.
Thanks
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on November 18, 2021, 07:43:48 pm
Hi again LH, do you know of a way to prevent the inverter shutting down from low input voltage?
If I read your post right it sounds like you are using your inverters as chargers sometimes too. So far I have enough panels that I have not needed to use a charger, but it would be great if it were possible to use the inverter as a charger too.
Is my understanding correct and what precautions are necessary?
thanks
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: noneyabussiness on November 19, 2021, 01:15:41 am
oh.. right output ac voltage " dropping " too low... basically means its at " full " pwm % and votage on pin 13 dropping below roughly 3v... if you are using a old PJ transformer,  the winding ratio is not correct ( eg8010 doesn't have as much dynamic range as the PJ) so, 28v primary to 240v secondary the sweet spot for 48v ( half it for 24v) ... personally got around this like lighthunter did and dropped output voltage to match ..

also what lighthunter is referring to, is " ac coupling " the output of the off grid inverter, to a " on grid " inverter... there are many threads on this subject, so I suggest to do some seaching  / reading... basically means the OGI support the off grid inverter,  but any excess power above what is being used charges batteries..
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on November 19, 2021, 01:25:45 am
Thanks Noneya. Today I changed the circuit breaker I had fitted to the inverter. I had a 120 amp marine/automotive type breaker and it was tripping out at 85 amps max. I had two of them and both did the same thing.
I found a supplier in Melbourne who had a 160 amp Beny double pole DC breaker for $154 delivered. Amazingly I ordered it yesterday and it arrived today.
I fitted the new breaker and then tried testing the inverter. I turned my solar panels off, to give the battery voltage a chance to fall.
The voltage fell down to just over 24 volts and held there.
I plugged in about 3500 watts of loads and the inverter shut down from current overload so I adjusted it to just hold that load and it seemed to run well.
The original powerjack transformer was 18volts to 220volts. The 8010 board specs said it wanted a 12 to 14 volt primary so in the end I unwound two turns off the low voltage side and it runs great.
Tomorrow morning will be the big test when the battery voltage has settled overnight and we try making breakfast and using the kettle again.
I am thinking that the marine/auto circuit breaker was too crappy and the voltage was falling across it, as it got hot. No idea how they can rate them at 120 amps when they can only hold 85 amps. So lesson learnt there.
I found that the LM324 op amp uses the 4th chip (pins 12,13,14. for the low voltage disconnect. So if I get a fault from Low input voltage again then I will have a go at adjusting the circuit to allow a lower threshold. Bit of a pain having to pull the board out again but I guess home made inverters like a bit of tinkering.
Thanks
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: noneyabussiness on November 19, 2021, 04:38:15 am
makes perfect sense,  breakers should not get hot under normal operation... unless 1 you pulling close to its rated capacity for a time ( each can be different in time ) , or it no where big enough for what you want it to do... oh and then there is those crappy fleabay specials that never even get close to their " rated " capacity.. 

like you said, getting hot means resistance... and also means as it heats, it gets worse... which would explain undervoltage problems...

don't stress, once you have set it up, it'll run problem free for many years... mine is coming up on 5 years , about 2 on new Transformer...
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: noneyabussiness on November 19, 2021, 04:44:11 am
oh and just a side note, if anyone interested... because mine lives " outside " ( in a open, but undercovered area) I coated any exposed board with this stuff... I reckon its made a difference protecting it, as heaps of bugs etc. have died in there and no damage has occurred..

https://www.jaycar.com.au/circuit-board-lacquer-spray-can/p/NA1002 (https://www.jaycar.com.au/circuit-board-lacquer-spray-can/p/NA1002)
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on November 19, 2021, 05:21:17 pm
I watched the monitor this morning and the voltage stayed above 24 volts when running the kettle. Seems like the breaker may have been the problem.
Noneya, I have seen circuit boards coated before, some with Brown or Black epoxy. The manufacturer was trying to make sure that no one copied his circuits. Of course they were very difficult to repair, meaning they had to be sent back to him to fix.
That Jaycar stuff looks good, I live in a very wet area so it may be worth doing  to my boards.
Thanks for the idea
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: noneyabussiness on November 19, 2021, 07:35:44 pm
beauty about this stuff is its " solder through " so easy repair if needed... also clear so can see any problems... good stuff you found the issue..
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on November 20, 2021, 11:53:28 pm
well this morning it shut down, cloudy day, kettle on, shutdown telling me low battery voltage.
You guys were right. I checked it out measuring voltages etc.
It was not regulating the output voltage well at all.
The output voltage was falling from 236 volts down to 206 volts, then it would shut down.
I checked my other inverter with the same load and it was drawing 110 amps from the batteries.
The new one was pulling 85 amps. For a while I was thinking it was much more efficient until I measured the output voltage dropping.

This transformer was set up for 18:220 volts, I took two turns off the low voltage side to get the output voltage up to 235 volts but it looks like it must have been saturating.
So I have added 30 turns to the output winding to give me a bit more headroom before saturation and plan to get some new cable for the low voltage side on Tuesday. It was wound with aluminium wire but I am going to try it with battery cable instead.
I will report back when I have tried it with the new turns ratio.
I need to get it to a 14:250volt ratio. So I will see how it goes.
Thanks
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: lighthunter on November 21, 2021, 12:32:38 pm

You guys were right. I checked it out measuring voltages etc.
It was not regulating the output voltage well at all.
The output voltage was falling from 236 volts down to 206 volts, then it would shut down.


Hi Pete😊
The breaker issue you found was certainly a win also, great work!

But then wether or not its a problem is completely how a guy looks at it and what your expectations are.

I added turns to my dual toroids for 120/240 instead of stock 110/220, when i switched to the 8010 i dropped a bit but only when i go below 48v supply.

If/when you find a deal on some good LFP like Doc H and swap the lead acid then you will never drop below 24 as theres not much left when you hit 3 volts per cell.

I do miss the old pjs but i dont miss having to change fets and drivers ::)

So unless you have a long wire run or an appliance that is getting hurt from low volts, then its not a big deal. You know your needs better than anyone though so good job in finding the culprit.(s)







Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on November 21, 2021, 03:13:29 pm
Thanks LH, so far I have added 30 turns to the secondary and will rewind the primary when I get some cable.
Strange how PJ changed things, the other two 8010 boards I am using were happy with the standard PJ windings, but this much larger transformer was wound for 18 to 220 volts.
I was not happy with winding the voltage down too far below 230 because of increased current draws.
Our supply used to be 240 volts but was downgraded to 230 volts on the mains. I can only assume it was because of ageing infrastructure. I still like to run 240 when possible so will wind the transformer to get near to that.
Thanks for the encouragement and help
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on November 21, 2021, 09:25:05 pm
I realised that I had some 6mm solar cable in the shed, having no use for it at the moment I wound the secondary of the transformer with 6 in parallel. It was quite good to work with as it is multi stranded and fine strands.
I ended up adding 30 turns to the output winding
and  wound the low voltage side with 4 turns less, so ended up with 18 turns on the low voltage side and 298 turns on the high voltage side.
I connected a 2300 watt load to the inverter as a test and it held 240 volts and regulated well. Looked at the wave shape on my scope and it is a beautifully clean sinewave.
So I am happy with it now.
The largest load I intend to run is 2400 watts, supposedly the 6mm solar cable is rated at 70 amps. I am guessing that is in air, but with 6 in parallel my 120 amp max draw should be fine. Time will tell.
Thanks again for the help
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: lighthunter on November 24, 2021, 07:19:55 pm
Great work Pete! Sounds like you really got it tweaked to perfection. I am quite curious what you mean by "Solar wire" maybe a product im just not familiar with. Seems like 6 in parallel of a wire that size would take up a lot of room. If it fit through the hole though, the more the merrier. You wont have added any loss with that low resistance.
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on November 25, 2021, 01:37:45 am
Hi LH the wire was black double insulated 600 volt wire used to connect solar panels together.
I had some left over from the ground mounted panels that I connected up and added to the system.
The wire is fine stranded and tinned as well.
I am pretty dubious about 6mm wire carrying 70 amps, but that is what some sellers are claiming. My biggest loads are 2400 watts and I don't run more than one at a time so I will only need the transformer to carry about 120 amps max really on the low voltage side.
There was plenty of room in the core for the cable.
The core measured approximately 190mm outside diameter, 90 mm hole and 90 mm high.
It seems to run pretty cool even on large loads.
It is also very quiet, very hard to hear that it is running on light loads so that is a bonus.
I put a 24 volt fan from the 8kw powerjack on it. The board had an output socket for a 12 volt fan so I connected that socket to a relay to switch the 24 volt fan on. And put a 40 degree C thermostat onto the heatsink and transformer winding to make sure that if either got warm the fan would come on.
It has a beautiful clean sinewave even on heavy loads. The idle current is 0.9 amps which is lower than the PJ too.
So I am very happy with it.
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: sunnypower46 on November 26, 2021, 07:29:55 pm
Been following this discussion; since at some point I expect to do the same with my PJ 24/8000.  It's been doing fine 24/7 for three years now.  Lifespan?  PJ delivering 240v local grid for Enphase IQ7+ microinverters paired to a sixteen panel (300w) array.  PJ backfeeding excess power to batteries with necessary overcharge protection (resistive dump load).

Anyway, have you considered using silicone wire for your primary?  I've had to boost & buck the center-tapped secondary of my transformer to get the voltages to match.  Working with #10 awg silcone wire made the job easy.  Super great flexibility and heat rating.

I think the solar cable you're working with (6mm square area) is typically #10 awg.  You said six in parallel through your core.

You may find less wires in parallel with a thicker (lower) awg size in silicone is doable, if that helps anything.
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on November 27, 2021, 03:15:45 pm
Hi Sunnypower, yes I had a look at some silicon cable I had. I used to use a lot of it for leads on electric motors when I was a working person.
I had a small length of 1.5 mm on hand but of course that was not big enough for the job.
The Solar cable well, I had it here, it is reasonably flexible, and there was plenty of room. I wanted a primary that would handle around 120 amps max. It does that fine.
The things that let PJ inverters down is usually lack of care when they build them.
Mine have died from things like, loose connections on high current sections. Such as where the cables join the main battery studs inside the inverter.
Loose screws can be deadly too, I have had a couple that came with screws rattling about in them.
Oh and they don't like being switched from charger mode/ grid mode to inverter mode fast too. They like that transition to be slow.
Oztules wrote quite a bit about them blowing up when he was using them as a minigrid.
The way you are using yours sounds like a fairly light load is on them most of the time so they should be fine.
The ones I had that blew up always took out the mosfets, some of their resistors and the drivers.
So far I am pretty happy with the 8010 boards, they are much simpler, are through hole components, they are however difficult to get information on. Circuit diagrams seem to be non existent ( except for the actual 8010 board) and the writing on the connectors is in Chinese but from what others say they seem to last well.
Cheers
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: sunnypower46 on November 27, 2021, 09:29:02 pm
Thanks for the lifespan perspective.  Yes, the micros take most of the load off the PJ during sunlight.  My nighttime load is normally under 2000w (300w average), mostly early evening to heat/cool the house via 18,000 BTU minisplit.

I've reworked most of the innards to improve cooling during the summer months.  And I've disabled the charging circuit.  My biggest concern is the lifespan of the large DC filtering caps.  Replace 3-5-7+ years?  I know they're not happy with high temps.

I have three of the 24/8000 units.  They all have the same physical size toroid core, but each uses a different primary winding concept.
The newest appears to be wound eight parallel #14 copper joined to become four parallel (#8 or#10) feeders for the H-bridge separate DC + and -.

At some point I'll get the courage to unwind the primary and attempt two or three parallel #6 silicon.  I believe you were happy with 12-14 turns?  I've not researched the minimum cross-sectional area yet.

All three of my PJs have similar looking FET boards.  Obviously different version numbers, status lights added, etc.  Oldest one is a 2015 version.  Are these all useable with the 8010 chip?  I'm aware of the gate resistor-diode update discussion.  Certainly will double check the H-bridge ribbon cable connections, too.

In re-reading your post, though, I think you're modifying via the complete Chinese inverter package sans transformer.  Did you rule out using the PJ FET Power Board?

Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on November 27, 2021, 09:58:28 pm
Seemed that it was too much trouble to use the PJ fet power board to me. As it had already blown up a couple of times.
Also the 8010 aliexpress boards come with better fets too. Larger case types that take a bigger beating.
I ended up adding 30 turns to the high voltage ( secondary side of my transformer) and wound the primary with 18 turns.
The voltage I went for was 14 volts to 260 to allow plenty of headroom and prevent core saturation.
It works pretty good, I checked it this morning while adjusting the current limiting and with 200 amps flowing in the inverter the output voltage dropped to 227. I can live with that.
Most of my loads are max 2400 watts, and I only run one at a time.
As for using silicon to wind the primary, it is pretty expensive compared to Solar cable. I paid about $140 for a 100 metre roll of 6mm Twin cable.
I have had two 8kw powerjacks, one had two transformers in it and the other one had the big single transformer that I just changed.
The windings on the big powerjack were enamelled aluminium wire on my one. The original primary winding was 22 turns, so dropping 4 turns was fine as the 8010 board specs said that they wanted a 12 to 14 volt primary. I increased the secondary turns so that I could easily wind it up to output 240 volts rather than 220 volts.
As far as capacitors go, well getting good brand reliable caps is the way to go. Many of the cheap ones are not the size or voltage they state.
I used a large copper soldering iron to get mine out when I was testing it, ( before it blew up the second time). I heated the lump of copper iron up with a gas torch and used it so resolder the caps too. That worked great as my 60 watt Weller iron could not generate enough heat to overcome the thickness of the tracks and solder.
It will cost more for good quality caps but in the long run they will be worth it.
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: sunnypower46 on November 28, 2021, 11:38:18 am
Oooh.  I misread your final primary turns assessment -- confused the 12v to 14v 8010 requirement with "turns".  So, reducing primary from 22 to 18 turns made the 8010 happy, and increasing secondary turns fixed the output voltage and waveform.

Gee, you've got me wondering about the existing primary wiring on my toroid.  Noting the enamel coating, I just assumed it was copper.  I need to "dig" deeper, I guess.

i think my old Weller gun is the dual heat 120/240w model.  Been a long time since I've needed it.  Hope I remember how to use it . . .

Could you find/post a current link or picture of the unit you have.  Nothing ever stays current on the web selling sites.

Thanks for sharing the project info!
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: Pete on November 28, 2021, 03:15:04 pm
I don't have pictures of what I had, One was in a stainless steel box the other was a clamshell aluminium enclosure.
Threw the boards away as they were no use to me and too complicated for what I wanted.
As you say nothing is current in their inverters, they are always changing.
One inverter had bolt on mosfet boards, they had 4 mosfets per board on my inverter. The DC side are the same except the AC boards had small ferrite beads on the central leg of each mosfet. Apparently that prevents them blowing up.
The other inverter had soldered in Mosfets on the main power board. Much harder to do a quick repair job.
The process I went through to repair them was suggested to me by Lighthunter via an old Oztules post.
FIrst to replace the mosfets, drivers and check resistors, then unsolder the capacitors and remove them.
Then I put a 5 watt resistor in series with the supply so that nothing would blow up while I was checking for gate drive.
After that replace the capacitors and put the whole shebang back together.
In the end I found that it had a bad connection on one of the battery posts internally, and that was causing it to blow up.
The less connectors on the high current side the better.
My new inverters are wired directly to the batteries with a 160 amp circuit breaker as protection.
Much larger cables than powerjack use.
With your inverters it may be worth just running them until they expire.
You could always get an 8010 board and have it sitting in the shed in case of major disasters with the PJ.
It doesn't take long to fit the transformer ( remembering the inductors, if possible add a turn to the inductor.
The 8010 boards come with a capacitor, make sure that you get the diagrams off the site that you buy them from.
Hope your system lasts a long time
Pete
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: noneyabussiness on November 28, 2021, 04:36:58 pm
just another suggestion,  if you have the room, leave the original caps in place and just add a heap more... on mine i have about 200000 uf external to the main board... saves a lot of headache removing the old ones, also in any repairs as you just replace boards...

most caps, even the underrated ones, will still be fine... its the ripple or heat that usually get them, so adding more obviously reduces ripple and the heat thing should be dealt with anyways... Ill partially quote OZ, " a fan on low, blowing across em 24/7 should keep them happy for years to come "
Title: Re: 8010 based 5kw chinese sinewave mosfet inverter board
Post by: sunnypower46 on November 28, 2021, 07:46:01 pm
All good points.  I like the gameplan you followed.

I really want an old PJ toroid to play with, I'm not ready to take a working unit out of service yet.  Long live my PJs!

I'll start searching for additional suitable caps and troll the Chinese sites for 8010 based products, noting your comments.