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Renewable Energy Questions/Discussion => Automation, Controls, Inverters, MPPT, etc => Topic started by: badgenes on October 17, 2015, 09:40:01 pm

Title: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: badgenes on October 17, 2015, 09:40:01 pm
I have a powerjack 8000w lf 2015 Splt Phase version, similar to jdavies, except that there is an external L1-N-L2 jumper terminal block above the fan switch.  This is not to be confused with the Line terminal block below the 110v output jack.  Could someone please explain the use of this block, as while it appears to be a jumper block to determine output voltage/phase configuration it does not appear to be given the lack of information in the manual.  We are new at this, having purchased deep cycle batteries, panels and charging controllers and this inverter.  So far, so good, but being cautious we have not yet connected any output to the inverter just testing it at this stage.

In the event that this is a jumper block for the line connections (L-N-E), does this affect the configuration of the 110v connector above?
[attachimg=1]
Thank you,
Sean
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: oztules on October 17, 2015, 10:46:42 pm
........ what fan switch?
LNE terminals are 0 - 220v and earth. The full output winding.
L1 N L2 is 110v-0-110v center tapped transformer output.

Use a meter and look if your not sure.

All power is floating above ground ( there are a few tiny caps that will give a high impedance voltage reading to ground... but no real power) until you connect it to a grounded system,,, then ground mentioned on the case, becomes house ground and whatever that entails in your code.

If using 110v outputs, try to balance the loads between the phases..... for book keeping for the inverter current limits....

............oztules
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: badgenes on October 18, 2015, 10:04:28 am
Thank you. Measuring the output of the 110v jack, we get 175v L - E, N - E 59v, and L - N 116v.  The values are exactly the same for the "Large Voltage Output". What we are wondering is what the circled terminal block is for. Is it to select the output of the upper jack?  Or something else?
[attachimg=1]

Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: Ricardo c on October 27, 2015, 07:25:44 am
Hi badgenes, nothing to do with your question but a lot to do with the photo. I recently purchased a Powerjack 5000 watt inverter after having read the posts on the forum and I noticed something missing in your photo. Mine has a little switch next to the 240 volt output that overrides the fan thermostat for continuous running of the fan. Without this function switched on the thermostat operates too late when the inverter is working operating the fridge, freezer and the front loading washer and the thing shuts down. With the fan on it is fine. Maybe this could be retro fitted to existing machines and save a few headaches. 
 
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: solarnewbee on January 28, 2016, 09:12:47 pm
The switch is for auto/on for the main fan so if you prefer continuous fan yay! As I understood from my discussion with the designer these powerjack inverters really weren't made to work in U.S. 220v systems split into 2 110v circuits plus 220v psc equipment since the neutral is bonded to earth at breaker panel, hence the "cannot L1+N+L2"Although.... There was a chinese/English barrier.
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: oztules on January 29, 2016, 07:51:36 am
I don't have a split system inverter to look at.... so this is guess work.

The PJ will use two transformers in series as the output. The center tap will be at 110v potential to either end of either transformer.
So you can have 0-110v with an 180degree out of phase 0-110v output.
You can have 0-220v with a center tapped neutral.
Neutral can be earthed the same as in the house system.... so there is no difference to the normal power

This should be identical to your street pole transformer in the US.
This diagram is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power
[attachimg=1]

The earth in the pj floats,( only connected to chassis ) and does not actually see earth until you connect to the main board in the house... then the chassis is earthed.
In 220v mode it is fine..... but is center tapped earthed as in the wiki picture... we don't do that over here.
We have one side of the 220 or 240v earthed as N, and the active s the other conductor.

You can do that with that PJ as well, but you can see that this will mean you cannot concurrently use the 110v outputs, and have them referenced to ground as well as the 220v... referenced to ground via a 220v neutral..... kaboom.... only via a center tapped reference to ground as per illustration.

So you should be able to use it as they do in the USA in that picture, for 110v and 220v,  OR you can use it like the European and Australian systems do... but you can't do both at the same time, and have the earths doing the legal thing in both jurisdictions.

The other problem exists in the way the current sense works, as it will only see one of the split phases, or all of the full phase..... so you can o/load it without it knowing if you load up the non-monitored phase. The current sense is in the active leg of the 220/240v winding on the secondary. Power drawn on the other leg to CT will not be seen.

Battery charging will need to be done via 220v input only ( or grid tie on 110v or 220v outputs... not official )


.................oztules
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: solarnewbee on January 29, 2016, 10:05:37 pm
Thanks Oz for the further education. A BTW messaged with eBay member bloominginverter based in China who when asked why there aren't any pj replacement parts and message came back what parts do you need sir? So....maybe this person can supply, might have to search member on eBay.com in the U.S.
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: dan on March 24, 2016, 11:04:52 am
so pretty much, dont try using this as 3-phase? use it like normal split-phase 110/220v North American houses do...?
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: oztules on March 24, 2016, 05:16:22 pm
yes Dan
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: Dr_Zogg on March 24, 2016, 08:31:23 pm
speaking of 3 phase. is it possible to build a 3 phase inverter? or am I better off using vfd's?

Cheers,
          Sam
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: dan on March 24, 2016, 08:48:04 pm
I am also getting a reading of about 60v N to E. Is it safe to connect them together? Or should I test with resistor first to see if there is any current flow?

Dr_Zogg, yes it is definitely possible, I know it can be done with Sma's sunny island inverters, but I do not know of any cheaper solutions
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: oztules on March 24, 2016, 11:05:29 pm
Dan, that should be leakage from the 2 blue caps on the ac boards.... they will get a center tap voltage as they form a voltage divider across the ac to ground... it is normal.....60v for a 120v system is correct. They are small capacitance, and carry very little power.

But you can test anyway.

Connect a small 1k resistor to the ground from the neutral, and see if it gets hot, or it brings the neutral to ground potential without any heat .. then you may connect it if all ok.

It is sometimes best to leave the AC floating above ground until it connects to a switchboard, and the ground can go to bus there... ie the case is connected to neither N or A until it is forced to by the home switchboard....... this will save blowing things up if you connect back to front.. it will just work, as the transformer technically has no preference as which is active and which is neutral, until you say so.


............oztules

Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: buglover34465 on April 02, 2016, 08:52:54 am
So can I use the powerjack split phase LF inverter in L1-N-L2 connected through the dryer 220V L1-N-L@ plug to backfeed my electric box and have the normal 110V/ L1-N, or L2-N, and 220V L1-L2 on the 220v breakers (hot water heater and oven)?
From the discussion, it sounds like I can, as long as I do not use the other installed plugs. This would be nice as I currently only have a 110V inverter backfeeding L1-N, L2-N for 110V no 240V.
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: solarnewbee on April 18, 2016, 05:03:23 pm

 I'm working on building a PJ 24 volt system and have a newbee question: can 36 volt panels be used in a 24 volt system???

Found a good deal, better than 24 volt panels. will my mppt charger deal with it?

I also find the connections on the PJ 8000w a bit confusing but in the philippines its just 220 and no earth ground, at least not until I retire there and add it for surge protection.
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: dan on April 21, 2016, 08:48:42 pm
Solarnewbee,

By the sounds of it, yes 36v panels will work fine with an MPPT charge controller into your 24v system. You really have to just look at the max voltage of your MPPT. That's the whole point of an MPPT charge controller. Usually you even want to series your panels together and go as high as your MPPT charge controller will operate. This way you can use smaller wires (less current) and you have less losses in both the lines and sometimes in controllers/inverters, but that depends. With some charge controllers it may be best to get the input voltage as close to your battery voltage to have the best efficiency, even though it will work fine with much higher voltages. I usually just series my panels together up to the max of charge controller, this way I have less combining of parallel strings to do, if any at all. It's much easier when I series together a bunch of panels and then I can hook them straight into charge controller with no combiner box/Ys

It would help a lot to know exacts for what you are doing. For the MPPT what is the operating range voltage, max voltage, etc.? For the panels what is the Open circuit voltage, Max power voltage, etc.? I often find it silly that people call panels "12v panels" etc., since they never actually match the proper charge voltage of panels, and depending on the setup you may or may not want to use a charge controller.

If you have lead-acid batteries on a system you use often, it is often fine wiring panels straight into your batteries. If your system may sit at a full charge for a while then you probably want a charge controller. Once the batteries are full, the solar will just keep cooking them. If you are going with Lithium batteries, then you always want a charge controller. Lithium batteries will get damaged quick when overvoltaged.


As far as your inverter goes... you do not need a split phase one. Philippines is 220v 60hz L-N, and thats all. There is not two 110v L-Ns which make 220v L-L, like in the US, and which is what the split phase inverter is for. From a quick ebay search though, it looks like buying the split phase models may be the easy way to get 220v 60hz. It is perfectly fine to use it as just a 220v inverter.
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: solarnewbee on April 21, 2016, 10:38:39 pm
Thanks Dan, useful info!
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: solarnewbee on April 25, 2016, 09:16:22 am
Good Day All!

I have since drafted a design for my system and pictured it below. My PJ has a built in mppt charger and I have an additional mppt. The max input is 32v so I went with the 300w 24v panels and 12 v 200ah agm batts. I was concerned about the mppt chargers interfering with each other so I will use barrier diodes to separate the 2 banks.(I may have hastily used the diode symbol in the wrong direction) my grid control is simply to jump to the local grid in case of failure without involving the inverter grid tie just using a relay and contactors at the breaker box.

I am going to test and build a few items here in the US before shipping everything. The panels and batteries were loaded at Shanghai port early this morning so that's out of the way. If you guys see an error, please point it out appreciation all around.

Also including pics of inside of my PJ and other parts.

anyone point in the right direction to post my own topic, a little lost here.


Thanks!
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: dan on April 26, 2016, 11:01:23 am
According to your schematic the wiring on battery bank #1 looks wrong. Why is it different from #2?

Why are you even separating the battery banks? Just because you saw 2 sets of terminals on the PJ? I'm pretty sure there are 2 sets just for convenience and those terminals are connected directly together... not meant for 2 separate banks.

Do you not have exact specs on the standalone MPPT charge controllers you will be using, and the solar panels? Despite your nicely drawn diagram, it doesn't help much without actual specifications for these things. I am curious what MPPT charge controllers you are looking at that have such a low input voltage. For example, you can get those decently cheap epsolar itracer ones which take 150v open circuit, 72v operating voltage. Other more expensive MPPT charge controllers take even higher operating voltages...

And if the banks aren't separated, then you don't need diodes. I believe most charge controllers will run fine in parallel. But do you really need 2? How much solar will you have?
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: solarnewbee on April 26, 2016, 02:32:16 pm
I am using powerjacks 2400w mppt that's internal(I will be removing the 2 wire from charger and using the terminals on the front cover) also a separate 2.4kw mppt for bank 2 solar panels.

I will have 3000w of panels on the front roof and 3000w on the rear. The house front is situated due east and rear to the west. This setup was of the panels only was recommended by Oztules. In the Philippines we pretty much get 12 hours of sun everyday. By noon I will be at full power. My goal in a few year is to double the panels. Typhoons and rainy season is my only concern about maintaining total off-grid time although at only about 2$ a month I can keep Meralco service at hand to switch over automatically. I know the post on the pj are connected but I was afraid that the mppt controllers would interfere with each other in some way. Reading thru Oz work with pj gear I found strange things happen when well attached differently.

The battery banks were supposed to be wired the same but I was up late drawing and didn't double check before adding color. He green lines from the inverter were my way of saying I'm in green mode
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: dan on April 29, 2016, 02:37:47 pm
Hmm yea, using different MPPTs like that may do some weird things... I really don't know though :P Different brands may have different limits or absorption times etc. I am guessing the budget is tight? I would have went with standalone charge controllers that have the nice high input voltages... but when working with 24v the amperage gets high for the amount of solar you have. The $350 MPPT I was looking at that does 3.2kw with a 48v battery bank will only do 1.6kw with a 24v battery bank. You would end up having to need at least 3, preferably 4 of these... :(  That's why I like to use 48v :P

I'm guessing you already have the 8kw 24v PJ inverter purchased? If not, maybe you should go up to 48v...
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: off the wall on May 06, 2016, 03:16:38 pm
Hi!

Ebay member bloominginverter is Cher based in Taiwan. She is the one person at PowerJack who gets things right and is very helpful indeed.

For a 24V system yes you need 36V panels. The 24V system charges up to 28 or 28.8V. The 36V panels have their max power point at around 30V. That's fine. To be blunt there is no appreciable difference between the output of MPPT and PWM controllers. The cheap MPPT30 controller, which may be more PWM than MPPT works well. If wiring runs are long, then put your panels into series pairs to acheive 60V working and the EPSolar MPPT controllers are excellent.

Best wishes

OTW
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: jdavid56 on May 14, 2016, 10:46:42 pm
...hey guys. The 24volt 8k LF PJ has worked well providing backup power to the home/home-office. Wired directly to the main panel into a dedicated 50 amp two pole breaker. Neighbors want to know the make of my silent generator. :)

I keep the battery bank maintained with a separate 10 amp charger. I tried charging with the PJ to no avail. I have a 5K unit similar to the 8K that works fine. The 8K unit works fine as an inverter but, will not transfer to battery charger mode. My question is this. Is there a fuse, switch, board that operates the charger function that is user serviceable with some help. I don't relish sending the unit off if I can keep from it.

This board is great. I damn sure don't pretend to understand the technical discussion, but I am smart enough to ask will the Oztules super inverter be on the market anytime soon.

Peace,
Jdavid
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: oztules on May 15, 2016, 02:33:17 am
Check the rotary switch is on a charging position.. if on zero will not charge, only sync.

If the voltage or frequency is out of range with your generator, then it may not sync in either.

Make sure you turn off the PJ before disconnecting shore power

"will the Oztules super inverter be on the market anytime soon"... not from me at least...... I'm retired and lazy and on a remote island....

...............oztules

Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: jdavid56 on May 15, 2016, 07:42:32 am
Check the rotary switch is on a charging position.. if on zero will not charge, only sync. Yep, but how can you really tell? You call it a rotary switch-I call it a "guess" switch.  >:(

If the voltage or frequency is out of range with your generator, then it may not sync in either. Voltage and frequency input from the mains and generator are are in the 240 range. The 8K PJ inverter/charger doesn't charge with this, but the 5K PJ does.

Make sure you turn off the PJ before disconnecting shore power. Again, yep you guys got me skittish early on with this one.



"will the Oztules super inverter be on the market anytime soon"... not from me at least...... I'm retired and lazy and on a remote island.......stop taking strolls on the beach and get to it, man.  ;)

Thanks for the response. Hoping you were going to say "check the fuse idiot".

Jdavid

...............oztules
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: Pete on June 20, 2016, 04:01:07 am
Hi Solar newbee, it looks like you are planning to use a diode from each bank of batteries to isolate them from each other. The problem I see there is that if you manage to be drawing an 8kw load from the inverter then you will be drawing  over 300 amps from the batteries. Drawing 300 amps through the diode will mean that the diode will be dumping around 180 watts. That is a lot of power to lose and a lot of heat to get rid of.
The other thing that bothers me is whether you are planning to just use a floating 240 volt system, or whether you are going to use Residual Current Devices on the 220 volt power points for protection. If you plan on using RCD's then you need to have the Neutral Earthed at the switchboard.
Generally the neutral link is earthed to the Earth rod to allow RCD's to work.
Here is Australia it is a requirement that all power points have RCD protection. I use them with my Powerstar W7 and they work fine. No need to connect the neutral and earth at the inverter, just at the switchboard.
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: solarnewbee on June 20, 2016, 08:13:10 pm
Hey Pete

RCD's is something I'm not familiar with but unfortunately when they wire houses in the Philippines, even new ones under permit like mine, they don't run ground/earth wires to any receptacle. I did run a line to a ground rod from the neutral in the breaker box, neutral was provided from the electric company but since 220 is the universal voltage here not sure why they did it unless they expected the electricians to ground the electrical system. When I took possession of the home a few ears ago I found they had buried the incoming line in orange plastic flex and twisted the wires together and taped them. Wire nuts are not widely used nor are other connections hardware so I had to ship a lot of stuff from the U.S.

In the U.S. we have GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupt) within 6 feet of running water and arc fault circuit breakers for all bedrooms. Arc faults trip faster when an arc is detected like sawing thru a wire in a wall, nails, screws, child with a paper clip etc.

The diode thing I may abandon since it's hard to charge from 2 2400w solar charge controllers, a 2400w windmill and 24v 3000w backup genny and get past the diode and keep battery banks separate.

SN
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: Pete on June 21, 2016, 07:46:27 pm
Hi Solar newbee, I guess that as the U.S uses only 110 volt for their house wiring voltage that they don't use RCD;s (otherwise called safety switches).
Maybe the Phillipines the supply is not referenced to earth and therefore what is called a floating system.
Still you could put a safety switch on the output of the inverter, before it goes to the house switchboard. 220 volts is lethal if you manage to get yourself across it.
Over 110 volts AC and 50 volts DC are considered dangerous here in Australia.
We have safety switches on all power outlets in our houses. They detect earth faults and trip if there is more than 30 milliamps difference between the active and neutral currents.  In our case the neutral is at earth potential.
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: solarnewbee on June 22, 2016, 05:58:33 pm
So Pete,

Your power is basically like what we call a high leg here in commercial buildings even in 3 phase supplied ones. 208 between legs but but one leg is 240 to neutral, found this out the hard way running a line for a 110 2 door commercial cooler.

SN
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: rossw on June 22, 2016, 11:47:13 pm
Your power is basically like what we call a high leg here in commercial buildings even in 3 phase supplied ones. 208 between legs but but one leg is 240 to neutral, found this out the hard way running a line for a 110 2 door commercial cooler.

240 phase-to-neutral
415 phase-to-phase

(We have three phases, any phase to any other is 415V, any phase to neutral is 240V, neutral is bonded to earth at switchboard)
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: hacky on July 22, 2016, 08:40:46 am
hey pete,

Im also from here in oz!
I hear what your say about the rcd!!
There is a product u may or may not have heard of , either way i think it may be helpfull for the people here riding in caravans or even just an added layer of protection for the rest of us in our system.
Since vans are seldom plugged into the grid supply, you can get a product from Safelec called a Residual Voltage Device  (RVD)
( would post a link but im new here and not sure what is and isnt allowed ) although could save someones life !!!
 L1 & L2 are supplied by the inverter, since neither have a connection to the chassis if there was any 'flow' along the equipotentially bonded 'earth system' wouldn't activate a RCD. The RVD detects a voltage between the 'earth system' and either L1 or L2 and isolates supply.

PS. One of these should always be used when using a Generator otherwise what level of protection do u have !
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: Pete on August 03, 2016, 04:04:02 am
Hi Hacky, sorry I didn't get to see that post of yours until today. What you are describing sounds like what used to be called a "core balance relay".
I haven't had much to do with caravans other than to know that they have to have double pole switches and power points, that is to make sure that in the case of the lead connecting them to the mains is wired wrongly that both the active and neutral are switched off.
I run RDC's in my house and shed but I do have an earth rod and the Neutral of the inverter is earthed at the switchboards to make them work.
Older inverters would not allow the neutral to be earthed but all new complying ones do.
Also some of the older switch mode inverters also had a floating output that meant there was up to 110 volts on the neutral conductor. They were mongrels, I had an instance where a man was testing his batteries with a hydrometer and was getting small shocks off the batteries as it was raining at the time.
We fixed that by earthing the negative on the battery bank.
I will experiment  for you and get back. It may be possible to get an RCD to work by earthing the neutral at the inverter or switchboard and connecting the earth wire to the earth on the inverter. I will check it out and get back to you.
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: Pete on August 03, 2016, 08:21:06 pm
Hello again Hacky, I tried out one of my inverters today in a stand alone situation. I connected an RCD to the output of the inverter. Then connected the earth wire to the incoming Neutral. Basically making a MEN (multiple earth neutral) system like we have in our houses.
The RCD performed fine.
So for your caravan I suggest that you try this.
Connect the inverter earth to the negative terminal of the battery.
Connect the neutral on the output side of the inverter to the Earth wire of the caravan wiring.
And see how it goes.
The inverter i used was a Chinese 1500 watt, high frequency job. All inverters built in the last decade or so should be able to run with the output neutral earthed.
I suggest that you get a multimeter or someone who has one and check that there is no voltage between the battery negative and the ground.
Just put the meter onto volts AC and put one probe into the earth, and one to the battery terminal.
Then try the same with the meter on volts DC just to check.
good luck
Pete
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: Pete on August 04, 2016, 04:41:56 am
Hello again Hacky, just in case my description is not easy to understand here is a diagram of how to connect the RCD up to get it to work.
Basically the Residual Current Device measures the current in the Active and the Neutral Conductor. If there is a difference then that means that current is leaking to Earth or through a person. When the Neutral is Earthed as I have shown in the diagram, if any current is flowing in the Earth wire it goes back to the inverter directly and there will be an imbalance in the current the RCD measures in the Active and Neutral conductor.
Some Inverters already have the Neutral and Earth connected on the back of their power points inside, It won't matter just connect as per the diagram and the RCD should work fine. To test the RCD just put a resistor or lamp between the active and earth  of one of your power points the RCD should trip.
Hope this helps
Pete
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: roadhse2@yahoo.com on September 16, 2018, 01:13:42 am
New Member so dumb questions will be asked...sorry

I must admit I am still confused over the neutral wire...

I have a new PJ 10000 on it's way. This will go to it's own 200a service panel and used as a stand alone power source for the majority of our household loads. Utility power will still be used for the heavier loads serviced from it's own 200a panel. I am doing it this way because I have a fairly large shop that will still require utility power for large items and with our cheap electric prices here, would simply require to much in dollars to take the whole place off grid. Our local utility does not offer a deal that makes it worthwhile to grid tie in ROI. As an example, a friend just had large system installed, no back up, at a cost of $36k, that is saving him just over $50 a month average on his bill...his ROI will never happen in his lifetime.

So we are doing this because we want to, not for any saving in dollars....But that also means I am doing it myself and being as thrifty as I can on getting setup. The basics are 5000w in panels, 935ah 24v industrial (forklift) battery, PJ 10000 LF inverter.

But this warning from PJ as to the neutral wire, "Note; Can Not L1+N+L2" seems to confuse the matter of how it is hooked into a standard service panel, at least for me. What can they mean by this? Not to hook the N into the panel is what it says to me....yet others say to go ahead. We also have bonded neutral/ground here by law in the panel if that will make a difference. The new PJ also has a stud to ground the inverter case.

So I guess what I am asking for is a yes or no on using the neutral in its normal position the same as utility service in a panel, or just a 2 wire (L1+L2) running to the panel with no neutral at all. Which then I don't understand how the circuit makes it return path to inverter.

I should add that from all pictures I have seen of these new 10k inverters, they have 1 tranny.

Yes, this is my first experience with a split phase inverter...

Sorry for the long post...

Dazed and confused in Missouri.
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: oztules on September 16, 2018, 04:04:20 am


Your PJ will be wired the same as the street transformer, and is a center tapped winding. The center tap is the N, and the two hot winding's are your 120v just as you street one is.

So if you want 120v you can use L1 and N...... OR.... L2 and N.
If you want 240v you use L1 and L2, and ignore N.

So you can drive (theoretically) a single 10kw load@ 240v
Or, you can drive 2 seperate 5kw loads on L1,N for one, and L2 and N for the second load.
You cannot drive a single 10kw 120v load.... as you can only use a single winding for a single load.... and the transformer will be unbalanced, which will only upset the voltage set point I expect.. the winding you use will drop volts, and the unused winding will be over volt, but the over the 240v winding still 240 average.

The diagrams here will help  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power

So long story short.... yes. use fig 1 on that link, that transformer is your street transformer, which is essentially exactly the same as your PJ transformer. V1 and V2 are your L1 and L2

You cannot connect L1 with L2 together as a parallel 120v winding expecting N to be the common neutral... it will simply short the full secondary. ... hence this warning "Note; Can Not L1+N+L2"  which no one understands either,


Connection of any part of the supply should only be done at the distribution board itself, or you will create all kinds of bogies.... leave it all floating , and let the house take care of it.

 PJ N to switchboard N,
 PJ L1 to switchboard L1,
 PJ L2 to switchboard L2, and
 PJ E ( STUD) to buss bar in s/board.



................oztules
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: roadhse2@yahoo.com on September 16, 2018, 09:44:07 am
Thank you...

That clarifies it for me and I appreciate you going over it again.

Glen
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: solarnewbee on November 13, 2019, 06:33:01 am
Oz

I recently had my daughter wire in a receptacle to the grid and plugged in the ac input (bottom left corner flip up cover) she observed the wattage output went to zero. My goal was to keep the batteries charged on days when there is little sun ie typhoon season etc. the PJ has an internal charger and the batteries were showing 28+v at the 2 charge controllers. The PJ internal charge controller has since in the last few months gone to showing 0v but it’s not integral to the control board. I’ve never used it because it has a 36v pv input limit and I’m at 108v+ pv.

I do realize Its been awhile since you’ve messed about with a PJ but maybe something may click. Possibly it’s just their ups function and useless as a grid tie charger etc using that plug which I believe is the same as the ac input terminals. I would just tie straight to the grid if I was there full time to repair when it let out the magic smoke so an ABT is the best I can do at this point.

Adios Everbody!
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: Pete on November 23, 2019, 09:52:17 pm
Hi Solar, I have a 5000 watt ( very optimistically rated) PJ.
Mine states on the front that it is only possible to use one of the inputs for 240 volt.
Mine has an IEC socket and also a terminal strip marked for inputs.

Mine works as a battery charger when I plug the input into my generator.
The sensing circuitry is not so accurate on the PJs. So maybe your PJ is thinking that
the batteries need charging and is in charger mode.
On mine in charger mode it has a bypass relay that clicks in that supplies power to the
house loads.
I don't think that they can be a charger and a grid exporter at the same time though.
I would suggest that you only turn the charger part on when it is needed.
Sorry can't offer more than that
Pete
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: solarnewbee on May 03, 2020, 05:20:49 am
Hi Pete

Yeah my daughter heard the click. I know these were sold as ups also so I suppose if I had plugged it in and had the inverter output tied straight to the grid things might be different but I just remembered reading in Oz’s thread “guess who just bought” some folks having mosfets blowing up in grid ties so I just went with a mains switch I got off eBay. Inverter is tied in as mains and grid is tied in as gen so when inverter dies it dumps to grid. I’m sending out a 48v 15kw and 2 Midnite Classic 150’s to switch out, which just frightens the daughter half to death. She’s managed to repair other stuff just fine so I got faith. Today she swapped out a burned din rail 80a breaker for the front set of pv. I guess I didn’t tighten good last year and it was getting hot. 60 amps at 120vdc will do that. First time she ever had wire strippers in her hands, not bad, put my boys to shame. If they break the lock down she can get some canned air and go to town on the dust. I left the fan running since January last year. Guess I better send a new fan 😳. Was it you drew that mud map for a dump load for my windmill? That’s getting shipped this year too. Different prop tho, don’t think 111 blades is any good , 87” 3 blade might do it.

Take care!
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: Pete on May 03, 2020, 09:27:30 pm
Hi Solar yep it was me that drew the Delta diagram for you windmill.
Make sure that all the circuit breaker connections are very tight. It makes a mess when there are high resistance joints at high current joints.
120 volts and 60 amps is fairly hefty. I hope you are using DC rated breakers at that voltage?
Cheers
Pete
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: solarnewbee on October 20, 2020, 10:54:46 am
Hi Pete!

Yep, all breakers are DC rated and still had one burn where the front roof set comes into that breaker. Probably I didn’t double check tightness. I really should take my inch pound torque wrench with me. I have a book around here give all the required in/lbs every electrical fitting instance. I prefer breaker with a square or hex socket screw but the breaker I prefer don’t have them.

I just recently found out my charge controllers were not set to the correct absorption stop level. It hasn’t been charging them full. Suddenly the charging amps jumped from 32 to 45. I’ll be happier when my Midnite Solar controllers get there and I can monitor and program from stateside. Did you upgrade to 24v yet? I shipped a 48v 15kw PowerJack and have to find a local buyer to take this 100lb 24v PowerJack  beast off my hands.

Best Regards.
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: Pete on October 21, 2020, 06:03:23 pm
Hi Solar, well on the issue of tightening connections, with large multi strand cables I tighten them initially, then wriggle the cable about a bit then re tighten them. I usually check them again after a while too. Then do tend to loosen.
Some come with a metal ferule that goes around the cable and they seem to help to stop the strands from separating but still tightening a few times helps.
I did manage to go over to 24 volt, I bought a 24 to 240 volt 50hz Upower inverter. It must be a powerjack clone as it is exactly the same inside.
It came with a loose screw rattling about from the mosfet board. Then I found it had the neutral and active transposed on the output and one of the plugs was half out on the control board. Also there was an output board floating above the transformer that had shorted out onto the transformer mounting bracket. Fortunately the inverter survived until I found the faults and fixed them.
Pretty good inverters just need to be checked out before using and problems fixed.
So far it is going great. I can now run my air compressor and wood splitter directly off my solar. I only have to fire the generator up to do welding which I dont' do a lot of.
Is your 24 volt inverter 230/240 50hz output? and what size.
Pete
Title: Re: Powerjack 8000W LF Inverter Question
Post by: solarnewbee on October 21, 2020, 09:43:34 pm
Hey Pete

Good to hear about your new inverter. The old inverter is 110/240 60hz 15kw (I only use the 240) I think the hertz is adjustable on this model. New inverter has push buttons to change voltages and hertz. The old one has DS18B20 temp sensors on everything. Glued on with thermal adhesive. Had a Rpi displaying temps. New inverter rarely gets warmed up unless you exceed 2000 watts and that’s just the coil. Heatsinks always feel cool to the touch.

All the best