Anotherpower.com Forum
Product Information => Product Support => Topic started by: OTG on August 30, 2015, 09:11:23 pm
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Hello All,
As noted in Oztules EPIC "guess who bought a power jack inverter" thread, my Mainboard popped a bunch of mosfets and I'm now installing replacement Main/Control boards. I've hit a few bumps however, which I've asked the supplier about per the below 4 points and corresponding images.
If anyone out there in anotherpower land can share their own advice/experiences on these points or board swaps in general that would be greatly appreciated!
Also, a few notes that might help others...
- If you had old boards (i.e. LW-CONTROL-REV 1 and LFPSW-MAIN-BOARD REV:1.4) and are replacing them with new ones (i.e. V2.2/V2.2a boards) you will need to drill new mount points into the aluminum chassis as they don't align with the old boards mounts.
- You'll also want; a good scalpel/hobby knife set to cut all that horrible red glue off the various sockets/plugs; and a hot glue gun for reattaching the Bty Volt/ LED board to the chassis front panel (a pain I know... screw mounts would have been much simpler! ::) ).
- Interesting to note the old Mainboard had 3 Caps (18000uF-50v) whereas the new board had 4... ???
- Finally, when I removed the end panel containing the battery teriminals/cooling fan, I found burn marks on the bottom screws/aluminum chassis!!! :o It appears to have had a short across the terminals/through the chassis at some stage. Could that have been the root cause of my fet-pops? Any ideas on how best to prevent this in future (strips of electrical tape on the chassis, cover the bottom terminals in some non-conductive coating)?
[attachimg=1]
1. I can see the Thermistor/Thermostat transformer connections on the new control board, however there a third connection thats soldered to the middle of the board with an eye terminal on the end of it (per the ? ? ?) . This wasn't on the old control board and it's not obvious what it's for. Can you advise what this is for and where it's to be connected to?
2. Per the photo's the old Thermistor/Thermostat wires were soldiered directly to the control board and then held with a hot glue gun. Then they were stuck to the transformer with a black glue/resin. Also the wires on the new Thermistor/Thermostat are too short to actually reach the transformer. How would your engineer recommend I make this connection?
My thought is the easiest way would be to use the existing Thermistor/Thermostat glued to the Tranny, cut the wires connecting them to the old Control Board, then crimp these wires to a new set of the small white 2 pin plugs used on the new boards. Then I can simply plug them in.
Does your engineer see any issue with using the existing Thermistor/Thermostat in this approach and/or would he recommend another approach? Also can you tell me what those small white 2 pin plugs are called so I can order some off e-bay, or could you ship me a new pair?
3. My final hurdle is with the cables connecting the terminals. The new Mainboard has 4 x strands of 8AWG power cable
soldered to the board and then paired off and crimped into 2 x eye terminals for screwing down to the 2 x negative (-) battery terminals. The same existing positive (+) power cables however are 10AWG. This mismatch could obviously pose issues. Can you ship me a new pair of 8AWG positive power cables?
4. I also note that the two cable bundles coming out of the transformer each consist of 3 x strands of 10AWG power cable. One yellow the other black. Can you engineer advise if there will be any issues here considering the new Mainboard's use of 8AWG cable for the battery terminals? Any advise appreciated.
[attach=2][attach=3][attach=4][attach=5][attach=6]
Thanks all!!! ;D
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Can't help with board swaps specifically, as i don't use the carcass.... nor the trnasformers, nor the cooling system..... hmmm... so we will try to answer some of your questions
My latest card is only the 1.4, the older ones are 1.2.
The fan systems have changed, but with the 5000w I assume only 1 fan,,, so extend the leads that don't get to your transformer... cut and join old onto new... very surprised the new ones can't make it to the front of the board to the tranny.... but...
1. Eye terminal to neg batt post... No .. no-one really knows what it does, we think it stops the over voltage shut down when using pwm solar chargers... but don't know for sure...... EDIT: just saw Seans post, PJ use a 1m across R14 to stop this o/voltage problem... so what does it do????now I have no idea.
2. Cut and extend if they don't get to the front of the transformer at least.
3. The wire size won't negatively effect you. They are only 6 inches long, so voltage drop will be insignficant. In free air those four wires can carry 200 amps combined, and with the fan... more. You only need 100 amps-120 for shorter periods. The unit won't do 3kw for too long without transformer being better cooled or upgraded. My 8kw boards use the same wire.
4. Can't see a problem here, as the fets control the current ...not wire size. There could be more wires or bigger, but i don't think it would alter the performance any.
The splatter marks look to be made from the caps discharging, as a battery short across there would destroy the bolt heads, and dig a very decent hole in the Al.
Do you have corrosponding marks on the terminal bolts?
From memory they are much higher than the floor, which means floating material inside or more likely, back plate removed before discharging capacitors at some time in the past ( factory ???testing... ????)
Doubtful they contributed to the demise, but check everything around there... were they loose, anything to suggest it happened in your posession? etc.
I would expect that kind of short would just result in a restart ( under voltage lock out )... but you can never really know.... but check your terminals anyway to see.
Perhaps others using the powerjack body can help out more.
.....................oztules
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Thanks as always Oz - you're a bloody electrickery legend!
Per point 1. I guess some things are just meant to remain a mystery... :P Thanks on points 3 and 4 too!
Yes only 1 fan for 5000w, it reaches the Control Board fine. But the new Thermosat/Thermistor wires are too short to reach up-round where they are currently glued on the tranny. So yes I'll need to cut and extend both.
New Questions
a. Would you use the existing Thermosat/Thermistors that are glued to the tranny, or do you remove/replace them with the new ones (and if so how?)?
b. Also does polarity matter for either of these wires? I can figure out the thermistor, but you'll see the old/new thermostats are wired differently (Old - Red to left pin, White to right pin; New - Red to right pin, Black to left pin).
c. One final conundrum... per below, the old (with glue all over it) and new Battery Voltage dial's are set differently - The Old one has the notch aligning up to 1 and 6. The new board has it pointing to 3 and 8. So... does it matter? Should I change the new one or leave it? Any guidance most welcome!
[attachimg=1]
Otherwise yes Oz, those splatter marks were directly beneath the bottom + - terminal screws and both screws had corresponding burn marks. Everything inside the inverter was secured super tight, and this is my first time inside of it (long after it died/caps discharged), so I expect this will remain another great mystery of the universe! :P
When my 8000w units arrive I'll definitely be double checking the innards before use.
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a. Use the new ones in case they are different temp/resistance thermistors.... originals were 10k@25c.....
temp switch is solid state, so it will pay to keep the wiring consistent with the manufacturer.
b. keep to the new scheme from plug to device as original..... so that they can't say that you didn't.
c. read yourbooklet, it will tell you which settings are for what batteries... set it to zero for no charge or the other numbers for differing battery technologies. It is only the set point switch for the battery charger routines. As I don't use the charger, I don't recall which number is for what.
.................oztules
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Ok, ta.
I assume it's just that black resin'y kinda' stuff that's holding them both to the tranny? Should I just use a hobby knife to cut the existing ones free, then just slot the new ones into the same place? Should I then also glue (would a standard hot glue gun be ok, or does it have to be that black stuff for thermal reasons or something?) or maybe just tape them down?
I dont use the bty charger either so I'll prob just leave that bit alone.
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The temp rate of change is pretty slow, so even hot glue would probably do ok.... it is fairly non conductive, but the rate of change will probably allow it to work fine... provided it does not remelt.....
or...... perhaps loosen the top nut, and push them under the rubber a bit, and retighten and that way they are physically held too the transformer body.
............oztules
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Gotcha, thanks OZ.
I'll give it a crack and will update the thread with results.
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Hello! I have an LF6000 in use, it works ok but sometimes has a sharp cackling noise (60hz) coming from transformers. When this problem first occured i had found pressing on the opto chips would make the sound go away. I have since replaced optos and solderd directly to control board. The problem isnt anywhere near as bad as it has been... when it is really bad the dc ammeter flickers wildly when it gets in a spell. the problem isnt completely gone though, it fades with some loads, others its louder. The grid tie connected to it will sense it and drop offline which happens at least a couple times a day.
Nothing has catostopically failed or burned on this unit, all original except for optos. I took control board out today and removed masking tape on bottom (why on earth would they???) I also scrubbed board with alcohol and toothbrush then removed opto sockets and soldered on board. Not even a bit of improvment
This inverter did go through a battery charging episode. It tripped the breaker feeding it that was thethe last time i ever used the charge feature. Could this problem be something on the main board like wounded fets or bad caps? Resistors??? Anyone else have this problem???? I have another cmplete unit identical to this one and i would swap parts but that one has same problem only worse, last i used it, it would start up normal and run moderate loads until it warmed up and then look out. The sound would start becoming audible then amp meter starts flickering and it created enough havoc merely connected to battey bank to make noise through other pj running loads and grid tie and kick it offline. System all works well except for that. Sometimes you wish it would just explode so u know what is ailing it
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Hello lighthunter,
You definitely have a puzzling problem.
If both units do the same stunts, what common sense I have left tells me its not in the units themselves but in something common to both. That leaves batteries, charging system?, the connected grid tie inverter, and ac loads.
Have you run the powerjack without the grid tie connected and still had the problem?
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Hi dochubert, thanks for your ideas. In fact shortly after i posted, i thought the same thing. Heres an update... "have you run inverters without gti?" Yes, one of them runs perfect no sounds, no issues. I then proved noise in xfmr was coming from GTI. Its a hf transformerless 3.5kw unit. The sound comes and goes depending on loads tied between them. When PJ is putting gti pwr in batteries its loud. The gti must be using pretty hard switching. Its all normal i just misread it. The other inverter defenitely has a problem. It hasnt blown up yet but cant b used either. Cold startup result in loud rattle of xfmr. If try starting enough times it will run and idle current declines to fairly normal 1-2 amps. If you preheat large heatsink connected to positive with hairdryer, it will start and run fairly normal. I ordered new 4110 fets like Oztules had suggested, hope that does the trick.
The grid tie and the good pj run fine every day for the most part but i do have trouble when the GTI output and AC loads are too close to equal...the pj fet current goes to nearly zero and within a short bit the gti will go offline. I suppose if i had more than one gti then that would never happen. As it is the solar output and loads in use always match at some point each day. I will have to put a bit more into the control program to avoid that condition. Be interesting to know if anyone else has that problem with a single gti/pj pair. Come to think of it, is anyone else besides Oztules pairing a pj with grid tie? I think he uses more than one gti so that problem may not exist.
Cheers, Lighthunter
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Maybe a dump load or two set to kick in just before things equalize? Keep it off balance
I hope you keep us up on your progress. I hope to try the gti/pj setup when I get to my off grid location and am very interested in how yours works out. I've got a xantrex gt3.0 gti I plan to use for that. It has large transformers and has been working as a normal gti for me for more than ten years now, so have high hopes for it paired to my pj.
Btw, how is your solution for raising the ac output voltage holding up? (something else I'm very interested in) Any chance that mod is contributing to the other problem? Just a thought ( and hope its not)
cheers
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Hi again :) I will keep you up on progress, its awesome there are others who like this kinda stuff. My wife is the artist type and really has that blank look whenever anything with numbers or electricity is mentioned but she is an awesome painter..does that 5 min painting stuff with aerosol cans like on u tube. Anyway, the pairing of a grid tie with another inverter is way more fun than a single inv and battery charge control, its almost like an engine, has some fun challenges too!
Good idea on the dump load to offbalance.
I ditched my first pj voltage mod and put things back to original. What im using now seems to be flawless. A pic will follow post to help describe it. My voltage needs were to match a gti of 240/120 60hz with the 6000lf single phase 112vac. The gti monitors phase to neutral on each side as well as the phase to phase. Those parameters were vph130 vpl107 vh266 vl177 it also watches for rate of voltage change.
I removed cover from pj and removed toroid, then removed bat leads from 2 of the bat terminals and connected those two (now unused) terminals to where the toroid primary used to connect. The PJ box is empty except for the boards and fans. Some time ago i had snagged a powertronix 3kw medical toroid with ratings... sec 37v pri 235v @12.5A. So after carefully checking phase relationships with a meter (light bulb works too) i paralleled the high current windings together onto the pj hbridge terminals now on the end of the inverter. The secondaries were then wired in series. One of the secondary leads were also connected back into the pj box through another canibalized terminal in front. (the white plastic terminals) keeping all original xfmr phase relationships, connect the one lead back to maintx (the one that didnt have current sensor). The other lead gets bolted together and heatshrinked with all of its original wires but not to the boardl anymore. This way the board can still monitor current but not voltage. Then I found an efficient 20lb transformer with many secondaries and a240v primary, plugged it into grid mains 240v and probed and seriesed secondaries till i got 112v. This procedure will verify your output regulation voltage before you even hook it up :) next (observing phase relationship) tie this 240v primary to the 240v output of the two toroids, then bring the 112v leads back to the pj cntrl board on maintx L and maintx N.
Turn on and test, if all is correct, connect the grid tie to the 240v output of series toroids and connect any 120v loads to the original outlet plugs. ( i used 112v because thats what my pj regulated at originally. Before making the modification, its helpful to measure the toroid primary while idling. Mine was 17vAC (use Trms meter). After the modification the primaries(now two) measured 18vac. This is caused by the control board having to run the primary harder to get the 112v back that it needs to be in balance, the significance of this is now your batteries have one less volt of headroom for voltage sag. There are 3 ways to correct this, stay away from heavy loads, add a few turns to the secondaries of each transformer, or order LiFePo4 batteries. I have been avoiding long term heavy loads and recently ordered lithium iron bats, i havent received them yet.
This PJ is now very solid 117/239 VAC split phase under 2kw load, the two toroids are almost identical primary and secondary voltages open circuit. That wouldnt be necessary but it makes things simpler. one nice thing about this circuit is that when the GTI is pushing high power into the secondaries, at 240 and you have loads connected to the 117v (only one of the toroids) the other unloaded toroid passes its magnetic current to its primary looping to the loaded toroid primary without having to go through the pj fets.
I hope this isnt too hard to follow, feel free to ask for clarification.
Lighthunter
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That pic is horrible, oh well its good simulator software but i cant edit with text. So the two xfmrs in a pair are the two 3kw toroids in series sec parallel primary. The v source on the left is a gti inverter with a series resistor mostly to force the auto trace routing to make a square corner. The xfmr on the far left is the voltage mod xfmr that samples the full 240 and feeds back 112 to the PJ control board represented by the ctr ic. The h-bridge is representative of the pj main board or fet board.
Hope everyone is having fun,
Lighthunter
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All I can say is Wow! Very impressive! I'm a bit slow, but I've read your description 3 times (so far) and am starting to get a glimmering. I'll keep at it until that lightbulb over my head blinks on. I actually have quite a few years of electrical and electronics experience, but you and the other guys on this site make me feel like 12 years old with my first multimeter looking for things to measure. I'm hoping to ride some coattails here long enough to learn enough not to blow myself or my house up building my power system.
Got a good chuckle reading about your wife's blank look. Could have sworn you were describing my wife. She has that same look when I get excited and start telling her about my latest project.
I'm looking forward to your next update. It may be too soon to ask but wondering how you control the system when your batteries are full.
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"Be interesting to know if anyone else has that problem with a single gti/pj pair. Come to think of it, is anyone else besides Oztules pairing a pj with grid tie? I think he uses more than one gti so that problem may not exist."
Hi Lighthunter,
Yes, I am running GTI's with PV with my 6kW OzInverter, with the 15kW PJ Boards.
I have 5 SMA SB's, not all installed yet, the low frequency types that are heavy, some are used some our new but old stock. They are cheap as chips as they are small, ie below or at 3kW.
What I have found is as Oz has said, the GTI back feeds to the batteries with out any problems. I also have 5kw of PV DC direct charging through Midnite Classic and Tristar controllers. If the batteries are full the DC controllers back the PV off, but then the AC output voltage of the OzInverter starts to climb, I can shut down the GTI's and their PV if no loads are on, by adjusting the GTI shut down voltage.
The GTI….. Most come ready set up with the appropriate Country code settings, now with the United Kingdom this code is G83/1.1 this means that the GTI normally at 230vac 50HZ and will only work within a set AC Grid range of 207vac to 262vac however the SMA Sunny boys are normally set to automatically disconnect at about 247vac. So in general your GTI will shut down anyway if the mini grid it is connected too rises to 250vac. However, the process of the GTI re-starting itself may take several minutes.
Oz reckons that the GTI's can backfeed through the OZInverter at about 8kW, but heck that's a lot of raw power going into the batteries, so hence me using small GTI installations so I can adjust each for different voltage shut downs.
In essence I can now balance the loads being used against the GTI's output with out thrashing the 1300ah C10 48v batteries, and allow the 5kW of DC coupled Controllers to fine tune the batts.
However, if you are using standard torroids then there may be other limiting factors at play. With the OzInverter we wind the toroid to achieve the best and robust functions.
I trust this helps.
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Hi Clockman,
Thanks a lot for your explanation. How the gti is controlled has been bothering me for awhile. From Oz' threads I thought he was using a home built control system to shut down the gti when the batteries were full, and wondered how I was going to do the same thing, not being as talented at designing circuits. If the gti high voltage shutdown kicks it offline before the batts voltage get too high, much simpler, especially if that shutdown is adjustable. My Xantrex gti waits 5 minutes before reconnecting, which seems a long time but may be ok. I have to go back and read the specs on it. Don't know what its hi v setpoint is either (it was never important before)
I also wondered about using direct dc charging in addition to the gti backfeed, which I was considering for reliability. It seemed to make sense to do it that way. Glad to hear that's working well for your system.
Thanks again
Lighthunter,
Thanks again for your explanation.
I think I've got my head around your mod, maybe just barely, but I think I've got it. A novel and innovative approach, to say the least.
I'm pretty good at taking somebody else's design and tweaking it to fit my needs, but designing from go... well, you have my admiration and respect, as well as my best wishes in your success. I look forward to your updates and maybe some pics of your setup?
I was, and I guess still am considering the first thing you tried with increasing the resistor stack/ladder resistance on the control card. I have an idea or two on that I may experiment with soon. Seems like it should work for adjusting output voltage, unless it pushes the control circuit out of operating range or something
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Hi guys! Thanks for all the great thoughts and ideas! :)
Dochubert, I have a tendency to word things with too many xtras. Basically the pj voltage mod is removing one of the two control board voltage connections (i chose maintx N) and provide that board connection with a substitute voltage to trick the regulator.
To explain how ... remove black wires from maintx N and p4 and bolt them all together above board and insulate, then connect a new transformer primary to the PJ output and connect the secondary leads to maintx L and maintx N. Done... the added necessary info might be ... choose a transformer that runs with 5 watts or less, choose a turns ratio that yields the new voltage you want and the old voltage the pj used to regulate at. I dont know if polarity of lead wires matters, i kept em original just in case.
Depending on your needs for increasing voltage, the other mod might do just fine, i wasnt happy with it for two reasons, It made the regulation soft and it drifted. it was a bit unpredictable too. Maybe only +- 5 volts of error but i had seen mine run with rock solid regulation under all loads and i wanted that back, also i needed 240 to be regulated while pj was watching the 110v , 5 volts of error on the 110 side turned into 10 volts off target on the 240 side and backfeeding it got even worse. I had other motives too like a picky gti that i cant adjust.
Clockman, great to hear your experience with gti control, I like that method!! so your using the pj voltage increase on full battery to communicate to each gti when to stop. Thats great, dont they just restart every 5 minutes? Well then i suppose you can change that timer too. Im jealous, mine is a brick, well not quite, it does its job well but i cant change anything, its locked down, emerson 3.5kw with dow powerhouse name on it, ebay cheapie $400. Inverters like that go for 1000 usd here.
When the wind gen goes up, i may have to invest in another, the gen is in the garage now just needs to be erected, one a friend & i built years ago, its got 15ga 240v 3phase wdg with qty32, 58lb magnets. We could light a 500w halogen bright with a half turn.
Dochubert, i am as of now using an idec programmable relay (is a small plc) to monitor battery voltage and switch loads from util mains to pj/gti as power is available. Works pretty well though it didnt until i learned to synchronize the phases between the two before transfer. When switching happens the voltage between the 3 contact points are less than 10v. No one even notices switches. Programming those relays is easy even for first time.
I will keep u posted, im anxious to see if lithium iron batteries are as good as they say.
heres a screenshot of the mains synchronizer in case anyone is interested.
Cheers Lighthunter
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The component on the far right is a 24v relay coil 8ma dropout current., The relay drops out to its nc contact whenever voltage between two sources is less than 10 v, this one is good up to 240v.(the resistor in series with relay coil was just for simulator accuracy, its not part of the circuit.
Cheers, Lighthunter
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Hi Guys,
I think in the future AC coupling using Grid Tied Inverters, GTI, is a cost effective way forward, as it reduces the need for a huge battery bank, and the GTI's I get are better costing than ordinary MPPT DC controllers.
Someone on this forum will probably want to start a AC coupling thread at sometime. I would chip in.
I chose SMA GTI's knowing that they could be altered for AC coupling for my Inverter. I also bought a very expensive SMA Sunny Island 6 Inverter, but boy oh boy what a mistake that was.
You have to buy SMA gear or interfaces to get the SI6 to talk to all the Battery charging controllers, if not the SI6 sends the 50HZ to 60HZ and my domestic electrical appliances failed and were damaged, and my batteries were overcharged. No mention of any of that in the SMA SI6 tech specs.
EEC trading standards and the German Trading standards have opened cases and at last, after a year of SMA hoping I would go away, the SI6 has gone back to Germany, and I am now awaiting my money back into my bank account.
My Hero 'oztules' came to my rescue, and I built the 6kW OzInverter, and it does everything I want. I am also building a BigOzInverter as a spare for my small community here in France.
Photo, sorry laptop pic, shows the SB3000 GTI parameters that can be altered, here is the 'Island Mode' before I alter anything.
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dochubert..
Re...... GTI's shutdown.
As well as altering the GTI's internal voltage trip, I also have a fail safe system which is triggered from my superior charging rate Midnite Classic DC charge controller. So when the batteries are full the Midnite operates a aux relay when it goes to float and the GTI's AC connection is relay fail safe opened and it is shut down from my Mini Grid.
Although at present the GTI's shut down as asked to do with out the fail safe circuit needing to step in.
I believe Oz's circuit he built was for the GTI to be disconnected when the battery charging was complete, but he did say the GTI just shuts it self off when the Inverter AC voltage rises, and it seems that he is not using the circuit he built.
AC coupling with the PJ boards is still in its infancy so there is lots to consider.
Me, I just like things simple, robust and cost effective.
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Lighthunter,
Thanks for the clarification and info. I see why you did it that way now. Makes sense. It just seemed at first to be unnecessarily complicated, but I get the advantages for your system now. I may still give the other method a try... what the heck
Also looking forward to hearing about your experience with the lfp batteries. Rossw's discussion of them has me aiming in that direction when the time comes to buy more batteries.
Clockman,
Thanks for all the great info on your gtis and insight. Between you, Lighthunter, and of course Oztules, you guys will have all the bugs worked out and the whole operation boiled down to a step by step process by the time I get moved and ready to build my full system.
Since we suspect those guys at Powerjack read this site, they will probably soon be offering a paired gti/powerjack unit already coupled and ready to use, based on all your research and trial/error. You guys should get royalties, or at least credit....
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Hello! The batteries came! I swapped them in last night and ran them today. To die for!! The performance isnt even on the same page with lead acid.
I know this is a baby system and very small battery ::) Im not off grid as some of you guys are. Its my fun time hobby. So far I have $3600 usd invested. ~$1800 in 2.25kw panels ;$400 3.5kw gti; $400 PJ, and now $500 24v 40AH LiFePO4 batteries another $500 in misc wire & controls.
The batteries i swapped out were 150AH FLA. The LA were actually doing ok compared to new but I just didnt like how much the voltage changed between 40A charge to 40A discharge which invited a 5 volt swing between 24.5v and 29.5v.
Not these guys, the internal resistance is low low low, I saw them go from 30amp charge to 30amp discharge today with only 1.4v of change. I dont have my coulomb counter done yet but seemed like for their size they are outperforming the fla by a factor of ten, easily running 700w for 10 minutes with very little voltage change. Anyway, my two cents? I think they are great, $500 was a lot to pay for 40AH but im guessing i would have had to spend $1000 in AGMs to get this voltage stability. Specs say these can charge/discharge at 3C which in this case is120A. Im trying to keep current under 1C. Battery management? I just set min 25.44v and max 28.0v for now. I will hook up cell-log8S tomorrow.
Sorry for boring u guys, It just took me months to pull the trigger and im glad now, controller doesnt have to switch loads near as much now.
Clockman, i might have missed something regarding the toroid mod you did in your pj. I understand the basics about voltage and current matching with windings but could. You explain the benefit? Maybe you were able to increase kw capacity of xfmr that way but dont you need more core too?
Just thoughts, Thanks guys!
Lighthunter
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To die for!! The performance isnt even on the same page with lead acid.
Isn't it just?!
Not these guys, the internal resistance is low low low, I saw them go from 30amp charge to 30amp discharge today with only 1.4v of change. I dont have my coulomb counter done yet but seemed like for their size they are outperforming the fla by a factor of ten
That's about what I found too. My 1000AH AGM were "doing the job", but honestly, 300AH of LFP does the job way better.
I think they are great, $500 was a lot to pay for 40AH
About $1USD/AH (per cell) seems to be about the going rate, even for larger purchases. I'm guessing you're talking about a 12V (well, 12.8V) system. That puts you at about $3/AH/cell, which for a modest bank is probably not stupidly off the money.
im guessing i would have had to spend $1000 in AGMs to get this voltage stability.
My AGMs in a 48V (nominal) system, where I had 48 x 500AH/2V cells (and 72 cells at one stage), still couldn't hold a candel to the LFPs.
Sorry for boring u guys, It just took me months to pull the trigger and im glad now
If you're like me, I have only two regrets.
1. Not doing it earlier.
2. Not doubling the capacity at the outset.
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"Clockman, i might have missed something regarding the toroid mod you did in your pj. I understand the basics about voltage and current matching with windings but could. You explain the benefit? Maybe you were able to increase kw capacity of xfmr that way but dont you need more core too?"
I purchased a PJ 10000w 48vdc, 220vac , 50HZ Inverter. The PJ torroids are woefully inadequate for pulling much power, they get hot, hot, hot, far to quickly, and therefore life expectancy on them is going to be short.
So I stripped for spares, especially the Boards as the whole Inverter was not far off the price of me importing just PJ 15kW boards, the 10kw just requires 2 more capacitors and they are 15kW boards, same layout, size etc.
The torroid cores themselves are usable, that's if you strip all three of them, (I got 3off in my 10kW PJ) and stack them together and wind you own windings, then I think a reasonable toroid could be achieved.
See 'Oztules' ..... http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1044.0.html?PHPSESSID=h7jd5l4edljl6k4ls18pgfj4i1.
And this for working out the Tech stuff on the torroids we make.... .... http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1117.0.html?PHPSESSID=h7jd5l4edljl6k4ls18pgfj4i1
Reasons for this design of Toroid.
Why don’t we just buy a toroid transformer ready made? Ahh, that’s where this toroid design wins hands down.
1. We double, treble, quadruple, stack the cores. Keeps the copper loss down, but increases the core mass so its cooler and can handle more. But, now’s here the sting, the core centre is now too small, because of its double stacked height, for a normal commercial toroid manufacturing winding machine to get in. So this design has to be hand wound.
2. After each secondary winding, we Epoxy the winding before putting the next layer of Mylar insulating tape on. Its not to heavy coating, but this stops the windings from vibrating, rubbing together and eventually failing, it also helps with cooling.
3. As this design is hand wound, the Primary small number of turns can be the full size big diameter cable. This also helps significantly with keeping the toroid cool as this winding is open, and air flow can easily circulate around and through the toroid.
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Hi guys! The new batteries are just so wonderful! The Grid tie rarely if ever shuts off anymore. Load shuffeling between grid mains and inverters works flawlessly now that it doesnt have to switch every time a cloud comes over.
Thanks for thoughts RossW, :) You are very right about the cost... in the long run, its cheaper. I did mention it to one of my co-workers who takes care of an AGV fleet. I think theres about 5 of them running with 24v 12v interstate agms. He gets about a year out of em. He said he couldnt justify the cost. i told him he would just have to try a set of LiFePO4 and see if its worthwhile.
"About $1USD/AH (per cell) seems to be about the going rate, even for larger purchases. I'm guessing you're talking about a 12V (well, 12.8V) system. That puts you at about $3/AH/cell, $156/AH/cell
These were prismatic cells, $250 for each set of 4x40AH. So $500 for 40AH x 8 cells = $1.50
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These were prismatic cells, $250 for each set of 4x40AH. So $500 for 40AH x 8 cells = $1.50
I got 16 x 300AH prismatic cells for here, they cost me just on $1USD/AH (near enough to $300 per cell, $4800 for the bank).
I think your friend might be very surprised if he could be convinced to try one set ;)
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@ ross w,
" friend might be very surprised if he could be convinced to try"
I, agree. Ive never seen a battery perform like these. Its everything
You could want in a battery. You did very well on pricing for the time frame.
You purchased. Hopefully they will come down more as they get more popular.
I was reading a blog somewhere where one was under test and approaching 5000
Cycles at 80%dod and still above 80% capacity. Ive heard high temps 85F+ can
Be their enemy.
After connecting these, my grid tie inverter
Never faults out. The nominal 24v level is about 26.6v and tons of instant.
Current without voltage sag, Referring to a problem i used to have with my
Grid tie inverter" im guessing the power jack had a bit of distortion when the
Battery voltage dropped below 25 which bothered the grid tie and caused it
To fault. (i was the cause of this by raising pj regulation voltage from 112 to 120.)
These are only guesses but the only things ive done were to install these
Batteries and increase voltage thresholds (load transfer controller), and no more.
Grid tie faults. The AC output voltage of PJ didnt change, still 237-241. Another
Solution might have been to add a few turns to the low v primaries of toroids, i didnt
Think of that till the LiFePO4 batteries were ordered so ithought just wait and see.
My spare pj has a serious problem, i had ordered fets (4110) but havent received yet,
Getting impatient because i want to use it for a dump load (well pump) anyway, i knew
Problem was temperature related but wasnt sure which component. I used a pencil soldering.
Iron today and when i switched on cold, the whole box shook with vibration, used hair dryer on control boarr, ran perfect 1 amp idle, let it cool, same thing, this time i heated chips individually.
Turned out to be U09 LM339, when i preheat it, pj starts and runs without a sound. Anyone know.
what this quad comparator does in the circuit? Anyway, i ordered, this time within same country.
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Drives the totem poles
[attachimg=1]
..............oztules
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Clockman, i forgot to thank you for the info on the toroid winding.
Techniques. When the time comes, im sure i will be using it. Although im.
Not crazy about winding, i did a starter armature once, it did work.
But was quite a chore. Currently my incoming is only about 1900w for2250 w.
Panel and the 6000lf runs two 3kw toroids parallel primaries, series secondaries.
PJ meter reads 2200w at times but the toroids never get very warm. In fact with.
The toroids removed from the pj box the fans never need to run. The fets dont seem.
To create much heat. Someday when i add more, i will need to stack toroids thanks.
Again for explaining it :)
Cheers!
Lighthunter
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Oztules, :) Thankyou!
That would explain it! I owe you. You've helped me a lot, I dont think.
I wouldve bought pj if it hadnt been for your posts! As it is i love these
Inverters.
Lighthunter
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Jeez fellas, way to hijack my thread... ;)
Seriously though, great to see more discussion, interest, and cool ideas (many of which go WAY above my head ;D ). Not to mention I've hardly been punctual with this thread... but now I'm finally back for an update.
So I ended up cutting the black resin from the old Thermistor/Thermostat and used the new ones simply by sliding them back in (they're held tightly enough, and the fan still operates as it did previously). I then drilled new mounts in the chassis, and stuck the new boards in... but (there's always a but), the longer boards now created a clearance issue with the +/- MB wires to the +/- back panel terminals and the cooling fan. So after some strategic trimming of the fans shroud/frame, I managed to sqeeze it all back in, and in the end I just cable-tied the front panel voltage switch board through the grill/holes in the front panel (saved me buying a glue gun for this one job!).
And then, it worked! And has been working fine for 8 months now.
To note I did get an explanation (of sorts) from Cher on the mysterious eye terminal that comes out of the middle of the CB. Quote - "engineer said the cable is protecting the board when home AC power switch to inverter. " So seems it's Battery Charger/UPS function related?
Also I cant recall original readings (I recall others saying upto 8 Amps?) but with new boards idle current now sits at about 2.6A. Not great, but I think it has improved. The only thing thats still not fixed is the over sensitive, over voltage protection. But now living as the run-about inverter for job's around the block (bore/transfer pumps, circular saws, cement mixer, etc) it been well worth the investment.
However, there is one thing I love more than my LF5000... my LF8000! :D
Idle current has definitely been sorted here... 0.6A! And it's soo quite compared to the hum of the LF5000, and easily handles everything I throw at it. Again the only issue is over voltage - that's next on my todo list for both units. I'll post another reply soon with a few questions for the local electrickery legends to help me nail that issue. Then I should be humming along very nicely indeed! 8)
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OK folks - time to fix that pesky over voltage issue!
Now I've read the discussion on this issue by Lanyho and OZ (starting p.3 of the now biblical "guess who bought a power jack inverter" post), but I still have questions;
1. "How" does this fix work (I'm just a simple weekend electrickery warrior who wants at least a basic understanding of "what" I'm doing). My take is the “reverse breakdown” sends enough current the otherway that the CB OV function doesn't notice the higher voltages at the top end of your battery charge? How close was I? ???
2. OZ said he used a 5v6 zener, but I've seen two different types (0.5W and 1W). Can somebody point me to the right zener (a link would be great!). Has anybody had success with other specs or even other devices?
3. My LF5k unit lives with both PWM and MPPT Charge Controllers. So per your advice OZ I'll be using a Zener. However my LF8k unit lives only with MPPT and in future I may want to use the Charge function with a generator. Sooo... is there a way (such as Lanyho's use of a 800k resistor) where I can fix the over voltage issue and still have the inverter effectively judge the SOC at the high end of a charge?
4. What's the best way to do it - de-solder the resistor, and solder back in with zener. Or just 'tack' the zener onto the legs of the existing resistor?
5. Can of worms alert!!! I currently use Forklift Gel batts, my future plan is to use Nickel Iron (NiFe). Obviously @ 1.65V x 20 cells at full charge... could be 33V of trouble for a 24V LF and the over voltage fix. Anyway to factor this into the fix now, or should I just forget about that for now? PS: I recently found the below link re NiFe's and am thinking if I drop some cells, I too could get away with using lower voltage "Lead Acid" electronics?
http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/17496/custom-inverter-charge-controller-settings-for-nickel-iron-batteries
6. I expect there shouldn't be any differences between doing this on the LF5k or LF8k?
Thanks all! :)
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Jeez fellas, way to hijack my thread.
I do apologize and will try to b more careful :). I know ur joking but just the same.
respect goes a long ways. Thats one thing i like about this forum as opposed to some of the others, there are really a lot of great nice helpful people on here thanks to everyone who helps with that!
Trivia. a 10w cfl bulb left on continuously uses 7.44kwh/mo :o. we have at least 2 that stay on 24/7 I never realized it. That could pump quite a bit of water from well etc.. Home power build has made me much more aware :)
I have no experience with the voltage mod as ive not had any problems with mine. I do however.
know how a zener would work in that application. The zener when inserted with the ring (cathode) end on the positive side of resistor and other end soldered to minus end of resistor of course will act as an open circuit (having no effect) until the voltage across the resistor reaches 5.6v called the breakover voltage. At that point current will start to flow more and more as voltage tries to go higher. This effectively clamps the voltage across that resistor to 5.6vdc. I havent looked at how the rest of the circuit works so someone else may be able to help with that. If the overvolt circuit only monitors the + end of that resistor i would think it would disable the high volt shutoff feature. That b ok in most cases as other equipment can control max v on batteries.
Has anyone tried a couple capacitors across the resistor? I would think it would absorb the spikes allowing 30v accurate shutdown, that might be the function of the zener as it will bypass spikes and hopefully be open circuit to normal 29.8v condition. Then zener mod would be ideal solution.
future plan is to use Nickel Iron (NiFe).
I used to drool about these batteries until i saw price...thats not even so bad considering the metal in them is resaleable to recover purchase price but then they last forever so. Ive not owned these so i cant comment. All i know is ive read specs and the charge voltage vs discharge voltage has quite a spread that inverters can struggle with also those numbers equate to serious efficiency loss. Imagine a battery with performance so good it acts like it has a built in voltage regulator. I have 2 small LFP 12v batteries. (4) 3.2v cells in each. No larger than a couple lawn tractor batteries, yeah they costed $250 each but these things act like a perfect battery! If they are somewhere between 20% and 90% state of charge and the sun comes out, they will hold down a 50 amp charge rate with only a slight voltage increase, also seen em supply 40+ amps without more than 1/2v sag. Thats more than 1C charge /disharge capable of 3C though im guessing something would suffer if you did. There is absolutely no heat at 1C (40A) maintained for stints of 5 minutes. They do it all at 95+%efficiency! Imagine a 400AH bank that you could use to 80%DOD. I just want you to know its an option. :)
Good luck on that mod! ;)
LH.
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I know you're just being polite, but seriously lighthunter... don't ever be more careful! The more posts on Power Jack the better for all of us! :) And indeed! anotherpower is a godsend (especially for a hack like me! ;D ) and its members are great!
Thanks a bunch for the zener diode description lighthunter, that made perfect sense! And yes, I have a severe man crush on NiFe at the moment... :P Thanks for mentioning LFP, they've never really factored for me, but they sound great. So I'll be taking a closer look at them when it comes to the big decision.
I have no experience with the voltage mod as ive not had any problems with mine.
- Really!? I thought this "feature" was common to all PJ's? What spec/how old is your inverter, does it have the std 10k resistor on "Cut if Low", and how do you charge your batteries? Do you think PJ's fixed it, or is something else in your system preventing the issue?
I did find a post detailing another attempt at solving this problem, here; http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1108.0.html (http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1108.0.html).
For now though, I just want the O/V issue fixed. I'll worry about generator charging and NiFi batteries later. So I've ordered some 1W (1N4734) and 1/2W (BZX55C5V6) 5V6 zener's and hopefully that'll do it for now. If anybody can confirm which they used (1 or 0.5W) that'd be great, otherwise if one fails I'll just try the other! :D
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Hi OTG, i liked your comment to Grabra17 regarding his failed inverter. Very well rounded accurate info and encouraging besides.
" I thought this "feature" was common to all PJ's? What spec/how old is your inverter, does it have the std 10k resistor on "Cut if Low", and how do you charge your batteries?"
I will post pic of it. I bought it in 2014. It is 24v/110vLF6000 with one toroid. Another (actual spec 3k) toroid has been added to make it a 120/240 split phase true 6kw unit. To date, this one has had no problems yet. I think its standard resistor ... blue color ring, i think is 10Meg resistor? Ive not measured it so i dunno. Battery charging "all" comes through the pj itself from grid tie. I'm guessing the toroids take most of the grid tie pulses out while the fet pwm pulses of pj are up there at a screech frequency to my ears, guessing 5khz or more. From what ive read on this forum its lower frequency higher current pulses that are a problem. Makes me wonder if anyone has tried an LC filter on their charge controller connection to batteries. With a large inductor in series and capacitor on battery side it would smooth those pulses.
"? Do you think PJ's fixed it, or is something."
My guess is its because ive never had an outback or midnit charge
control. The only one I ever used was a small windynation with 800w on 24v for 32A tops.
the rest of my panels were direct to bank through relay contact.
Dont get me wrong, Ive had this pj shut off from over voltage but its *always* been an actual over voltage condition and at 30v. Since im using LFP now 28 is my maximum and that.
Voltage control is done by means of an idec PLC with outputs tied to relays that add loads in increment to maintain correct battery volts. If it still cant control it, then it interrupts grid tie inverter. I dont use battery bank for storage, only for regulation as i use grid when RE isnt available, If I did buy a bank i dont know which type either. I wonder if forklift bat would give more per dollar? Just because used deals can b found. Performance wise LFP but NiFe has proof of durability and longevity.
Just a thought, do you have any way of recording what is happening with your battery volts? I use a cellog8S and it has been so much easier to program controls when i can review what happend during the day after making a change. Sometimes its surprising what you find.
Cheers! :)LH
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"Makes me wonder if anyone has tried an LC filter on their charge controller connection to batteries. With a large inductor in series and capacitor on battery side it would smooth those pulses."
Yeah tried and failed with this setup too...2mh...... then I interfered with the resistor... and after that it ceased and desisted with telling me it's problems... the diode stops all that nonsense in it's tracks.
Must say I did not use the capacitor across the batts.
.................oztules
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Thanks for sharing your experience with the choke Oztules! Saves us from the headache :)Those ideas always seemed to work better on paper than they ever did in reality. what was that formula?1÷(2*pi* f *c)=XC that formula may give you an idea of the effective resistance of a capacitor xposed to a sine wave but then whats the frequency of a transient? dv/dt or the rise in volts/time? I never really understood all that even though i can do some of the math. I think the ESR value of a cap has more to do with shunting a transient than anything and the text books never mentioned that parameter when i... well im just too old, they probably do now.
I was trying to switch 150vDC with a contact yesterday and had a loosing battle with that one. Well loosing at least temporarily. I watched as my relay literally went up in flames. Nasty arc DC can sustain, i see why they use it in welding, can you imagine stick welding with solar panels? It would be smooth as glass. Anyway my second attempt at switching dc went better after i put a .1uf cap accross the points. Do you suppose the inductance of the long cable run is enough to cause the behavior? Mercy panel voltage is destructive. You cant really fuse to protect anything from adverse behavior either because ISC isnt much more than IMP.
The capacitor seemed to do the trick and i like the isolation but would i have better luck using a fet or igbt to switch than using a relay?
LH
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Hi all, there was a request to post pic of a toroid mentioned earlier in this thread so here it is alongside its equivalent spec pj torroid.
The pj torroid came out of a 24v 110v LF6000 without split phase.
Pj xfmr 4" height x 6.5" diameter 22lbs.
Powertronix 3"height, 8.5" diameter 31lbs.
These ran side by side for a year before i switched to an 8kw 200lb.
Split phase transformer. Will post it after the others.
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Finally closing this one out... hopefully it helps somebody. Though I see the new boards don't use Cut if Low, so I might have missed that boat! :P
I tried both 0.5W & 1.0W Zeners in parallel on my LF5000 and LF8000 inverters... and for whatever reason, they did nothing for either inverter. One lives on a PWM controller the other MPPT, both OV'd as per usual.
So I bought a bunch of resistors ranging from 650k to 1.2M and in the end I found:
- the LF8000 with a 1.2M in parallel
&
- the LF5000 with a 820k in parallel
had both of them working perfect!
The LF8000 worked with the 1.2M off the bat so I left it. The LF5000 would still OV to varying degress with larger resistors (e.g. I had a 1.2M in it originally) but with the 820k it's had no troubles. I suspect the 8000 might be the opposite?
So after 6months of OV alarm free 'inverter-ing' I'm chuffed! :)
Thanks again to all the good folks at AnotherPower for helping me get there!
Onto the next project... ;-D