Renewable Energy Questions/Discussion > Solar (heating or electric)
Need some math help on system production..
DJ:
I think this Time of Use and charging you one rate on what you import and a lower on what you export is a criminal scam.
The power companies say the difference between import and export is because of whole sale rate and grid maintenance etc. PIFFLE! Costs nothing and wears nothing out to send the power from one house to next door where it is then purchased at the full tilt rate.
I think they should be paying you MORE for you power than theirs.
Here they have all these wonderful feel good Fuzzy BS options to buy " Green" power. How the fk they send you green power from coal power is another scam but anyway. If you are giving them green pwoer they sell for a preimum, shouldn't you at least get a fair 1:1 credit on the power you import?
And what about the power from the power station 100-300KM away? How much does that cost to send all that way and more over, how much is LOST through resistance, leakage, inefficencys in all the transformers etc?
There is no way in hell that could be more efficent than sending your power next door or up the street.
As for the time of use, I think that's pretty spin doctored. While you are at work and not using any power at home, you are in the office or at the factory where the power IS being used and shiploads of it. I have a hard time believing that combined domestic use outstrips commercial use. And again, even if it does, why are they paying less to the home owner when they generate power which is supplied locally and takes the heat of the power company?
Makes no sense.
I have set up my own system and thankfully I have an old spinny meter which goes backwards as well as it goes forwards. May not have that luxury much longer as I'm looking to move house but I'll be setting up the same way so at least what I do use is offset by what I generate and I'll also look at going to a battery system ( forklift pack rather than non economic powerwall type ) to stick it to the power scammers a bit further.
As I'm also into Diesel generators running on waste oil, going off grid may be an option in the near future when I have the space and setup to do it.
Hoping to hell the next place wherever it is has the old style meter but given the age of the homes in the area I'm looking at, probably a very long shot and I'm not a lucky person.
First thing for sure will be a big electric Dual element hot water system with the main element hooked into the solar through an inverter.
tomw:
Yeah they are trying to screw us.
Our emails setting this up started with this response to my installer questioning how it would be done:
--- Quote ---He is correct there is no net metering. With that said your production offsets what you buy from us. Anything that is overproduced is bought back at 3.8 cents per kw. With this size of unit, I do not see any over production being carried over to the next month.
This is a hybrid metering system we use and have seen other municipals doing the same thing
Basically it will look like this.
Your usage is 800 KWh
Your system produces 500 kwh
You pay retail for the 300 you buy from TMU
Now let’s say your system produces the following
Your system produces 800 KWh
Your usage is 500 KWh
We buy the excess of 300 KWh back at 3.8 cents
--- End quote ---
He says "no net metering" then pretty much goes on to describe their method which sure looks like net metering? TWICE!.
They charged me X.X cents for all incoming then credited me x.x for any delivered so its definitely NOT what he described!
Or am I the nutbag who can't understand English?
Anyway only got the bill yesterday and being Easter weekend I decided to wait til after the holiday to pursue it further. It is a city owned utility and the superintendent is a blowhard who thinks he is Albert Einstein but is actually closer to Forrest Gump but not as nice.
I will go to the City council, Mayor and Press if I need to. He also never returned our signed interconnect agreement. Pity the guy is also responsible for the destruction of a $3/4 Million dollar diesel generator trying to save some $$ on oil changes and other maintenance oversights.
This is either extreme incompetence or deliberate and I think I have some options here.
Sadly, I shouldn't have to fight them to get what they said they would do.
Tom
rossw:
--- Quote from: tomw on April 15, 2017, 01:21:38 pm ---Or am I the nutbag who can't understand English?
--- End quote ---
No, he initially said one thing, then described exactly the opposite in examples, then done what he initially said.
His original examples are directly contradicting what he said and what it appears they do.
In your shoes, I think I'd print the email, run a highlighter over the examples, and take it to them along with your bill and say "please fix this".
If you're lucky, they'll do as per the example.
If you're unlucky, they'll put a line through the examples and say "Sorry, you were given the wrong information".
It's worth trying though.
rossw:
--- Quote from: DJ on April 15, 2017, 11:01:07 am ---The power companies say the difference between import and export is because of whole sale rate and grid maintenance etc. PIFFLE! Costs nothing and wears nothing out to send the power from one house to next door where it is then purchased at the full tilt rate.
I think they should be paying you MORE for you power than theirs.
--- End quote ---
Well, to be honest there ARE ongoing costs. Not just preventative maintenance (like they used to do in the old days), but ongoing repairs which DO need to be done. Fuses blow, insulators fail, poles get termites, transformers burn out, isolators stop working, storms damage things. There is an on-going cost to maintaining the network.
I'm not sure the disparity in prices reflects the cost however, but remember also that there is a great deal of "gold plating" done. Power companies prices are based largely on their value, not the cost of supply, and their value is increased by the infrastructure they build, buy or otherwise acquire.
--- Quote ---As for the time of use, I think that's pretty spin doctored. While you are at work and not using any power at home, you are in the office or at the factory where the power IS being used and shiploads of it. I have a hard time believing that combined domestic use outstrips commercial use. And again, even if it does, why are they paying less to the home owner when they generate power which is supplied locally and takes the heat of the power company?
Makes no sense.
--- End quote ---
If you look at the energy market, as they get more "smart meters" out there, peoples time-of-use charging will probably get closer to the point of instantaneous-cost calculated. It is interesting to note that recently in parts of the USA, the wholesale price of electricity at certain times of the day was actually negative. Yes, they PAID you to take power. There was an over-supply of power (or is that under-demand?). A few hours later, it was back to costing you money. There needs to be a significant overhaul of the whole power "industry" to bring supply and demand more into line, but I'm not sure how to achieve it. Massive-scale deployment of individual small-scale generation & storage plants (ie, most homes and businesses) might help.
eidolon:
There were concessions made years back to the environmental community when RE power was estimated to never amount to anything. Read an article recently where it was stated that the utility companies want solar panels to face west when they can actually use the power. At this time there is no incentive for people for people to face them that way. Smart meters will change all that and cause the grid to balance out. RE people are just freeloaders on the grid.
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