Battery and electronics shed

[Watt]

We started our battery and electronics shed yesterday. 

I was thinking we had discussed an in ground or above ground option somewhere on this board but couldn't find it.  After the replies, I've decided to go above ground for the one problem with loading and unloading batteries.  We have a few of the forklift battery varieties weighing from 2000lbs to 3300lbs each and I found my tractor was limited to lifting the big one just 4 foot high before it couldn't muster anymore.  I dropped it last time when moving it to clean and broke a cell internally.  I have a boom on my work truck but who knows, I may sell it tomorrow so I want to be able to maintain this later. 

The shed dimensions are 9' x 12' with a 8' ceiling.  We have dug a footing around the outside and footings crossed through the center in a plus shape.   The footings are 18"x18", the slab is 6" thick.  Cement has been poured.

More to come as the slab cures and pics when we remove the forms. 

 

[WooferHound]

The previous discussion . . .
http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,391.msg3579.html#msg3579

[Watt]

You are the man Woof, thank you very much. 

[tomw]

You are the man Woof, thank you very much.

Yeah, Wooferhound knows where all the skeletons are buried.



Tom

[Watt]

I'll have to remember that Tom.

You are the man Woof, thank you very much.

Yeah, Wooferhound knows where all the skeletons are buried.



Tom

[Watt]

It's been a few days now and the slab looks decent but has a bunch of paw prints in it from my German Shepherd.  Ya, never thought about the dog walking on it.  Dah      It's been covered in plastic due to our weather being so darned hot and I just hadn't looked it over.

Just wondering if you guys have ever used an epoxy coating and if so, is it battery acid resistant?  I've been thinking about a good coat on it after maybe a few more weeks of cure time.  Would help hide the paw prints also.... 

I ended up putting a drain against what will be a wall.  A channel from one side to the other so all I gotta do is wash towards the wall, which has a slight grade towards it, and let it drain outside into the same grease trap we use for our garage.  Easy to get the muck haulers out to pump it dry. 

So, on to the walls.  I'm not a carpenter by any means, I can't work with wood worth a toot and wonder if you guys have ever heard of wall heat bridging?  I've read that metal frame work makes that bridging worse than wood frame work.  Before reading about that bridging, I'd already build the recesses into the slab for my r-panel to sit in and seal to the slab.  If I go with what Ross had suggested and build cement filled cinder block walls, can those walls be insulated as well or will they be better insulated than a wood wall with 2x6 studs and fiberglass insulation?  Also, I've been thinking of leaving all electric and piping out of the walls to help with final room insulation.  I know mounting that stuff on the wall in conduit may look primitive but, this little shed will be cooled with a little air conditioning unit which will be run from the RE stuff.   

I'm up to what ever we gotta do to do this little shed right the first time. 

Thanks for your help again.
 

Mike

[tomw]

Mike;

Regardless of the floor / finish I would suggest a rubber mat of some sort to make a thermal break between the batteries and the concrete "heat sink".

Both of mine sit on rubber pads to thermally insulate them from the concrete slab. The flooded Dekka traction battery bank is in a can on a rubber mud flap on a pallet and the sealed GNB traction battery bank is also in a can on one of those work mat pads. A containment pan of some sort would be good if there was a catastrophic spill of electrolyte to keep it corralled until you can dilute and clean it up.

GNB Bank:



The Deka Bank:



There is an old mechanics tale that says batteries on concrete discharge through the concrete. I don't believe this but in a cold climate batteries sitting on cold concrete will lose capacity from being cold. That I believe.

Just from here.

Tom

[birdhouse]

watt-  if your really worried about insulation at heat bridging, do some research on staggered stud insulation.  use a 2x6 top and bottom plate, but use two sets of 2x4 studs.  one flush with outside, and one flush with inside, but stagger them about 8".  insulate with r-15/13 in both sets of studs.  flexible conduit, pex, ect. can be woven between studs without drilling!

this way, the only framing members that are in contact with both the inside and outside finishes are the top and bottom plates. 

if cinderblocks are left open, they could be filled with spray foam insulation.  still wouldn't have near the r-value of staggered stud, but would have much more thermal mass, which can be good and bad depending. 

adam

[Watt]

Tom, thanks for the advice.  I will do the mat for sure no matter if it's on the floor or in a box.  I was thinking of doing a box and venting all in one for each traction battery. 

Just curious, what kinda temperatures do you see in your battery room(s) Tom?

Mike;

Regardless of the floor / finish I would suggest a rubber mat of some sort to make a thermal break between the batteries and the concrete "heat sink".

Both of mine sit on rubber pads to thermally insulate them from the concrete slab. The flooded Dekka traction battery bank is in a can on a rubber mud flap on a pallet and the sealed GNB traction battery bank is also in a can on one of those work mat pads. A containment pan of some sort would be good if there was a catastrophic spill of electrolyte to keep it corralled until you can dilute and clean it up.

GNB Bank:



The Deka Bank:



There is an old mechanics tale that says batteries on concrete discharge through the concrete. I don't believe this but in a cold climate batteries sitting on cold concrete will lose capacity from being cold. That I believe.

Just from here.

Tom

[Watt]

Adam, I like that idea.  I believe I will be doing this but instead of lumber, I will be using c-perlin.  It will have R-panel for outer walls and inner walls.  I was also thinking of using that foam board with the foil on one side. It's supposed to have a pretty good r-value.  Thanks for sure.

watt-  if your really worried about insulation at heat bridging, do some research on staggered stud insulation.  use a 2x6 top and bottom plate, but use two sets of 2x4 studs.  one flush with outside, and one flush with inside, but stagger them about 8".  insulate with r-15/13 in both sets of studs.  flexible conduit, pex, ect. can be woven between studs without drilling!

this way, the only framing members that are in contact with both the inside and outside finishes are the top and bottom plates. 

if cinderblocks are left open, they could be filled with spray foam insulation.  still wouldn't have near the r-value of staggered stud, but would have much more thermal mass, which can be good and bad depending. 

adam

[tomw]

Just curious, what kinda temperatures do you see in your battery room(s) Tom?

Well, it is in a "climate controlled" multiple use space. Kind of. A room that is 12 foot by 16 foot I call my office.  Well insulated with 16 inches of foam / cellulose combination in the walls, 2 feet of same in the attic area a concrete slab floor with 4" of foam under and around it. Lots of thermopane glass, too. Originally set up for floor resistance heat but the days of cheap bulk electricity passed and I heat it with a wood stove now. If I had been smart I would have gone with the hot water heat but the resistance cable was easier and much cheaper. I could use solar heated water if I had gone that water heater set up and coils in the floor but...

Temperatures can range from around 40F if I haven't fired up the wood burning heater for awhile to 100F in summer if I don't spend time in there with the AC on.  It never freezes because all of the satellite TV, Wireless internet access gear and local network servers run in there as do the inverter, charge control, etc for the RE system. And, of course about a ton of batteries.

The battery pack usually is between 75 and 80 F depending on the charge going into them.

This morning, the floor /room is @ 74F, the batteries are @ 78Fwith a 40 amp charge rolling in and outside it is 66F  The inverter is pushing about a kilowatt into loads and is @90F all according to my IR  thermometer.

I would say the area is generally @ room temperature.


Tom

[birdhouse]

I believe I will be doing this but instead of lumber, I will be using c-perlin

watt, i'm not familiar.   like steel studs?  if so, that seems a lot more expensive!  maybe it's different where you live with costs ect.   in the pacific north west of the united states, steel framing is roughly 2x the cost of wood framing.  maybe you could just do the walls in wood as there will be no angles ect., then switch to steel for the roof? 

polyisocianurate has the highest r-value of any rigid insulation i've ever used.  R~21 for 3.25 inch sheets.  but it's also ~$60 a 4x8 here.  with staggered stud and polyiso, you could get R~40 in the walls! 

the roof is the higher importance though!  thats where heat leaves in the winter, and heat comes in in the summer.  have you though about modified trusses where there is a built up area where the roof meets the stud wall to negate that thin spot that most homes have?  i've done jobs where we blow in 3' thick of cellulose to get R-60 plus in the roof! 

adam

[Watt]

Adam, I thought I had answered your reply.  Must be getting absent minded. 

Here is the c perlin I will use.  http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00nMqQERyFrhkK/C-Purlin.jpg&imgrefurl=http://suzhouguangcai.en.made-in-china.com/product/CMVQETyjEHkK/China-C-Purlin.html&h=341&w=380&sz=80&tbnid=wbH0DlnGe7oWwM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=111&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dc%2Bpurlin%2Bpicture%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=c+purlin+picture&usg=__sT3bsocl8wmoRApE841esIb-x0A=&docid=k0P7zMkSbR3NgM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oscBUPTOBYji2QWkrKC8Cw&sqi=2&ved=0CF8Q9QEwCA&dur=1766  Or at least this is a picture of what I will use.  Anyway, 2 rows staggered each being 4".  I am hoping to use the foam or similar, as you have suggested, on the outside.   That sorta r-value in that short of space is hard to pass up.   As far as the roof goes, I have added this room on to my garage.  It is on the back and to keep with the same slope of the roof, I have about 2 foot to play with for insulation of the ceiling and slope of the roof.  I do plan on some good radiant barriers.  So, I need to do a little research regarding the roof. 

Our winters are not bad but, our summers are killers. 

[Watt]

Thanks for your reply Tom, this gives me a sort of ball park area to work with.  It's been so hot here, our forklift batteries are staying around 90 degrees and not dropping during the night.  I gotta get this shed done soon. 

Just curious, what kinda temperatures do you see in your battery room(s) Tom?

Well, it is in a "climate controlled" multiple use space. Kind of. A room that is 12 foot by 16 foot I call my office.  Well insulated with 16 inches of foam / cellulose combination in the walls, 2 feet of same in the attic area a concrete slab floor with 4" of foam under and around it. Lots of thermopane glass, too. Originally set up for floor resistance heat but the days of cheap bulk electricity passed and I heat it with a wood stove now. If I had been smart I would have gone with the hot water heat but the resistance cable was easier and much cheaper. I could use solar heated water if I had gone that water heater set up and coils in the floor but...

Temperatures can range from around 40F if I haven't fired up the wood burning heater for awhile to 100F in summer if I don't spend time in there with the AC on.  It never freezes because all of the satellite TV, Wireless internet access gear and local network servers run in there as do the inverter, charge control, etc for the RE system. And, of course about a ton of batteries.

The battery pack usually is between 75 and 80 F depending on the charge going into them.

This morning, the floor /room is @ 74F, the batteries are @ 78Fwith a 40 amp charge rolling in and outside it is 66F  The inverter is pushing about a kilowatt into loads and is @90F all according to my IR  thermometer.

I would say the area is generally @ room temperature.


Tom

[tomw]

Watt;

I should have mentioned this room is inside a common farm steel pole shed on the SE corner of it.

Just means it doesn't have a roof of it's own being hammered with sun or cold and only half of the wall area is exposed to the weather being a room inside a building.

Tom