Author Topic: Buck converter for small wind turbine project  (Read 83222 times)

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Offline boB

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Re: Buck converter for small wind turbine project
« Reply #105 on: June 12, 2012, 12:28:20 pm »
Hi, is it possible to use high voltage capacitors in series to divide the input voltage to a more useable level?

Sort of... Kind of...   But it will work way better on the AC side of the rectifiers.

boB

Offline MadScientist267

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Re: Buck converter for small wind turbine project
« Reply #106 on: June 12, 2012, 06:46:29 pm »
Quote from: Burnit0017
The stock wiring of the F&P produces a voltage much to high to be used with a buck converter to convert down to 12 volts for battery charging.

One thing you may want to consider here, is what's called a "forward converter". Essentially, it's a high frequency transformer in a push-pull configuration on the primary. There are advantages and disadvantages to going this route, but you might gain some efficiency at the power levels you're working with by going this route. One of the harder things to overcome (at least in my experience messing with them) is the kick-back from the transformer into the MOSFETs. It can be difficult to tame, and results in a lot of magic smoke if this little detail's requirements aren't met. :-\

Quote from: Burnit0017
I was getting better results using lower switching frequencies. I will redesign the circuit to operate at around 10kHz or lower. After reviewing component cost and availability I am pursuing 5 amp power module configuration with single timing controller board, so for a 15 amp output would require one controller board and three power modules. I am not sure if it will work.

You can parallel buck converters, just as you can any other kind of power supply, given that the load is balanced between them. This can be tricky to do from a DIY perspective, simply because tolerances are generally a little bit "sloppier". Just an inherent issue in the "manufacturing" process (doing it by hand).

There are a few methods used to counteract this. One, is to synchronize the converters in a master/slave configuration, where there is one controlling chip that does all the monitoring/feedback/duty cycle operations, and the slaves just do the dirty work. I have a power supply that is set up in such a way here at the house, it has 5 of 6 modules installed, and is capable of 100A @ 13.8V. Each module carries 20A, and the outputs are all tied together on a buss. There is a single conductor that jumps from module to module to provide the switching control for all of them.

Another method used where the DC waveform needs to be smoother but increasing switching frequency isn't practical, is to drive the modules in a "ring". Each module switches n degrees out of phase with the next, evenly spaced out with each other. The result is a higher effective switching frequency, with a lower actual frequency, each converter carrying it's portion of the load. This is probably the most difficult to implement, as you also need the special chip that controls the phases. They are also typically synchronous in nature (MOSFET on both the high and low side, rather than a MOSFET and a Schottky diode). Haven't built one myself, too complex for my blood. :D

Quote from: Burnit0017
What I need to find out is as more power modules are connected in parallel can the switching frequency remain constant, or does the switching frequency have to increase because each power module  will have its own inductor and connecting the modules in parallel will reduce the inductance and cause the inductors to saturate. I am not sure and comments are welcome.   

See the above. It really depends on the type of converter you intend to use. Directly applied to your current design, there's no need to increase or decrease the frequency "just because". There are pros and cons to going higher or lower, all depends on what your needs are. But remember that at 10KHz, you're going to be hearing a lot of whining coming from this thing, and if it's going to be where you can hear it, it will drive you nuts.

A typical tradeoff between performance/efficiency/noise is 25KHz. That's fast enough to keep it out of audible range, but slow enough that the losses in the transistors/diodes don't get excessive.

All in all, when you first posted about this, I didn't think that your input voltages would be so high, so a buck seemed pretty much on target. It would have been fine for example if you had a 48V turbine, and wanted to charge a 12V bank. Several hundred volts in (or even a couple) is an entirely different animal. At this point, even given your skill set (which is above many), I'd look into the forward converter from here. A properly built module can handle several hundred watts on it's own, and it would be trivial to parallel two or more modules together to handle multiples of that.

As boB loosely alluded to, I too would stay away from the "cap divider" - it's begging for instability, and will bring it's own set of challenges to the table.

Good luck. :)

Steve
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Offline rossw

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Re: Buck converter for small wind turbine project
« Reply #107 on: June 12, 2012, 06:52:03 pm »
Hi, is it possible to use high voltage capacitors in series to divide the input voltage to a more useable level?

No.

The Capacitors will charge up on DC - you'll get a brief output while there is charging current, then nothing.
If it was on the AC side, before the rectifier, then yes - but why would you? It's a series circuit - current will be the same, voltage will be far less, so *power* will be divided too. (That is, in your sample diagram, if you had say 400V and 1A, at the indicated tap you'd have 100V, still only 1A - so only 100W out from 400W input)

Offline MadScientist267

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Re: Buck converter for small wind turbine project
« Reply #108 on: June 12, 2012, 07:43:50 pm »
Something else that comes to mind, although it might take some of the fun out of it, depending on how or what you do with it...

A PC power supply has a good percentage of what you're trying to do already laid out and put together. Inside, the voltage that goes into the conversion section is about 320VDC, across two caps. If you can tame your mill to this general range, you might be able to just get the raw grunt section out of one of these supplies and use it almost as-is.

I don't know for sure how well this would just "plug in" to what you're doing, as I haven't tried anything like it myself, but I have made minor mods to them in the past, such as adjusting output voltages and the like. They can typically handle several hundred watts, so you'd be in the ballpark anyway.

Just a thought.

Steve
Wanted: Schrödinger's cat, dead and alive.

Offline Burnit0017

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Re: Buck converter for small wind turbine project
« Reply #109 on: June 22, 2012, 08:00:24 am »
Hi, making progress. I am trying the parallel buck idea.   I only have enough parts to fabricate three Buck power modules. It is enough to test with. I still have to route wire connections and fabricate controller board.

Offline rossw

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Re: Buck converter for small wind turbine project
« Reply #110 on: June 22, 2012, 05:49:50 pm »
Silly question perhaps - but why are you replicating the 3ph bridge rectifiers 4 times?
Wouldn't one decent one be simpler and cheaper? And one decent one probably more reliable?

Offline Burnit0017

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Re: Buck converter for small wind turbine project
« Reply #111 on: June 23, 2012, 09:31:03 am »
Hi, I have limited knowledge of power circuits. Connecting the input capacitors parallel will reduce the capacitance and possibly increase ripple at the input. When the mosfet is on the inductors would be in parallel and their values would change and create a problem with the switching frequency being used.

The other problem I am having is finding away to limit the input voltage to a value that does not exceed the max voltage value of the parts being used. I am not able to find parts that will output 15 amps. I am trying to install a working system before it snows. The only success so far has been a single buck converter with a 5 amp 13.7 volt output with 1 amp and 70 volts at the input.

By connecting multiple isolated 5 amp max buck converters in parallel I am hoping this will avoid any problems. I have enough parts for 3 power modules and one controller board. It is enough to test with.    Corrections to my reasoning are welcome.

Offline rossw

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Re: Buck converter for small wind turbine project
« Reply #112 on: June 23, 2012, 04:34:33 pm »
Connecting the input capacitors parallel will reduce the capacitance and possibly increase ripple at the input.
No, caps in parallel add. In series they reduce.
Resistors in parallel reduce, in series they add.

Quote
By connecting multiple isolated 5 amp max buck converters in parallel I am hoping this will avoid any problems.

Good luck. It's far more difficult to balance multiple parallel stages than one larger unit.

Offline Burnit0017

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Re: Buck converter for small wind turbine project
« Reply #113 on: June 23, 2012, 05:12:38 pm »
Connecting the input capacitors parallel will reduce the capacitance and possibly increase ripple at the input.
No, caps in parallel add. In series they reduce.
Resistors in parallel reduce, in series they add.

Quote
By connecting multiple isolated 5 amp max buck converters in parallel I am hoping this will avoid any problems.

Good luck. It's far more difficult to balance multiple parallel stages than one larger unit.


Hi, thanks for clearing up my confusion about the capacitors. What about the relationship of the inductors values and the switching frequency when the mosfet is on?

     

Offline rossw

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Re: Buck converter for small wind turbine project
« Reply #114 on: June 23, 2012, 05:50:41 pm »
Hi, thanks for clearing up my confusion about the capacitors. What about the relationship of the inductors values and the switching frequency when the mosfet is on?

Well, in very broad, general terms - the smaller an inductor is, the higher the switching frequency will need to be for a given energy.

Inductors in parallel will increase their ability to carry current, but inductors in series increase their inductance.
(edit: clarity. Inductors in series increase their collective effective inductance. Each inductor doesn't change)

Higher switching frequencies in FETs makes the drive more demanding, and (generally) the FET spends more time in linear regions - thus increasing its dissipation and reducing overall efficiency.

Everything gets to be a tradeoff.

Offline Burnit0017

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Re: Buck converter for small wind turbine project
« Reply #115 on: July 29, 2012, 02:46:10 pm »
Hi, I was able to fabricate some single sided PCBs for the controller and Power Modules. So far I have tested the circuit using a stock F&P radial flux AC motor using a hand crank to manually spin the PMA. I have to drive the PMA with the drill press for more testing.

Offline Burnit0017

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Re: Buck converter for small wind turbine project
« Reply #116 on: July 30, 2012, 11:27:35 pm »
Hi, approximate measured values:
RPM = 280

Current in = .7 time 3 I can only measure the current at the input of one buck converter, I am using 3 buck converters. Input Current = 2.1 amps DC

Vin=58 volts DC

duty cycle = 30 %

Vout= 12 volts

Current output = 7 amps

Result obtained using drill press test rig. PMA is stock F&P.  I may get better results using a PMA with a higher current and voltage output.

Offline Wolvenar

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Re: Buck converter for small wind turbine project
« Reply #117 on: July 31, 2012, 01:59:44 pm »
Seems to becoming along nicely. ?.

Are you reaching the figures you hoped for?
Trying to make power from alternative energy any which way I can.
Just to abuse what I make. (and run this site)

Offline Burnit0017

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Re: Buck converter for small wind turbine project
« Reply #118 on: July 31, 2012, 07:13:25 pm »
Hi, I have all the pieces, I just to adjust some of the parameters. There are problems. I have to improve the fine tuning to adjust the duty cycle, it not working as good as the prototype circuit. It is a resistor value problem. At 10 % duty cycle the output signal is not stable. I will make a video showing the problem, it should take a few days. I am not sure what the problem is.

 I still need a crowbar circuit at the input or something similar to protect the circuit from over voltage at the input. Running four buck converter may not be the best solution but it is working and a micro can be interfaced for control. All the circuits are running cool.

The stock F&P may not be the best choice for a PMA. I am rebuild another PMA so I can test the circuit with a PMA that has a lower voltage with higher current output.  On the upside I did not burn up the circuit, it is still working. The project goal is 15 amp. I am about halve way there.  Being  able to make single sided PCB is cool, I just need to improve the circuit that is on it.  :)

Offline Burnit0017

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Re: Buck converter for small wind turbine project
« Reply #119 on: August 01, 2012, 01:25:53 pm »

http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/Products/ProdDS/387268.pdf

Hi, I was checking the data sheet for the inductor I am using and I not sure what I am looking at.  There is a column for inductance value @ current. Is this the value that should be used to calculate the switching frequency for the buck converter?  Comments welcome