Anotherpower.com Forum
Renewable Energy Questions/Discussion => Solar (heating or electric) => Topic started by: bj on April 09, 2012, 09:38:03 am
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Was saving my bucks for panels, as, @ .90 a watt (Fred) I can just barely build them for that. But, he doesn't ship
those to Canada, (not CSA) so bought the 6x6 cells, and will no doubt rely heavily on Oz's kindly shared methods.
Bottom line, only difference is my time, and I'm cheap. (and easy)(and don't go there ;D)
So, $1732 (incl shipping) later, I'm poorer, have a summer project, and will undoubtedly learn some lessons.
Keep you fingers crossed, and for those so inclined, say a prayer to the sun gods.
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Hi bj,
You bought roughly 2K$ worth of naked cells. Man I'm Impressed. You have way more time than I.
I can only say "Awesome" and good luck. I'm a wimp, I probably would have bought a small number to see how it goes and whether I can do it with the same $s (or better) as purchased panel
Rover
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If you got the 6x6 with the short tabs, it is easy and fast. If they have no tabs..... it is tough going for large numbers.
I admire your jump in the deep end first..... but at least I can say for sure that after over a year of the first ones we did, there is no sign of degradation. They appear to behave the same as the commercial ones (and so they should). They have had searing heat, and frozen nights... with 1/2 inch of frost front and some ice on the backs.........no change.
The only thing to watch is how you do the terminal box to keep the water/moisture out. Thats the only weak link, and is solved easily too. The boys had some good ideas with the laminates a few weeks back.
We had a dang frost here this morning.....1/4 inch of ice on the panels.
................oztules
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Oz, Rover, thanks. Got a couple of small panel projects to start with, and go from there.
I always do my best work under pressure, so, we'll see.
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bj, you did take a big bite. That's lots of solar. I wish you lots of good luck and no skinned knuckles. I hope you will post.
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Thanks Phil. I will definitely post, just have to develop the habit of taking pictures. I think grid-tie will be a
tougher challenge, but I am willing to fight the fight. So far the arguments against have been won with just plain
common sense. Plan "B" is to get the pole removed, but of course I will have to have a lot more battery storage.
Time will tell.
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It's not hard to fight the fight here as long as you have a few politicians on your side. Since I'm an 'REC" type member, I can get the bill reduced until it gets to zero, the they won't even say thank you for the excess power you gave them.
I plan to use the functions of Outback on the buy while I cry function and laugh when they don;t get any free power back. That is, I will use my generator until I get 850 feet of grid tie electric line ran, but only if I need it. I'm only now days away from buying two FX 3524's. I'm hoping to get caught up on posting this weekend. <off my soap box>
I'm assuming you will do a few panels, test them and hook them into your system then. (I'd be too excited to leave the completed panels doing nothing) :) From just making completed panels from laminates, I can appreciate what Oztules has done and what you are going to do. That's a lot of fun work!
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Your assumption is correct Phil. Or at least that's the plan. The outbacks will be next month(hopefully)
for me. Going 48v. It's only money right? ;)
Have one bank of L-16's, but will need another.
All great fun.
It wouldn't happen if Oz hadn't done all the groundwork.
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We will be following along with interest bj,... 8)
..&..Would love to see every detail of your adventures!
It's all good fun!
Cheers, Dave
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Well, April 25, and a whole bunch of 6x6 cells (with paraphernalia) arrived. Been getting other stuff ready, or
almost, in the meantime.
Now the fun starts.
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In the process of getting "other stuff" ready, I decided to build a box for ammeters etc. Build,
because I am basically cheap, and I had an old desk that was destined for scrap metal. The sides,
where the drawers were, had about the right dimensions, so I cut one down, (in depth) to what I wanted.
Made a top, out of the same desk, and a door out of another piece.
Holes were punched with this free-bee hydraulic hole punch. Wish I lived closer to Wolv, as it would
have saved him some grief. It needed minor repairs, is old, but the price was right.
Should do the trick, cost--$2.40 for the piano hinge.
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very nice bj!
do you have a free tempered glass source? what are your plans for glass? any thoughts on how many cells per panel ect?
just totally curious with what you're gonna do with ALL those cells!
do you have a Kw estimate for what you'll end up with in the end?
adam
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Yeah that looks like it would have made life a lot easier.
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Adam: no free source, yet :) so may be buying. Have a good rapport with local, so we'll see. If I have to buy, I may go low iron.
Voltage----system will be 48V nominal. I'm planning two panels in series, to ammeter, to buss. Individual panel cell count would
normally be 30, but may up this a bit to take advantage of some of the electrickery available. Still tabbing so have a bit of time.
Purchase was about 4000 watts worth, which doesn't quite work out, but I have a couple of smaller projects on the back burner,
so we'll see. Plan includes space for double that, if I feel so inclined. (b.s. --IF I can afford it) That's why all the ammeter holes, and
space for more.
Oz was right, tabbing is pretty boring.
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Picture of the cells would be nice.... just so I can reminisce. I have over 4kw done, but it did not happen overnight.... a long drawn out manufacturing process....
What cells did you get finally .... tabbed, raw etc. If raw, you have lots of testing to go, unless they are the chinese ones, they are good for their consistency.
Have my best wishes, I know how much work you have to go......
................oztules
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Great job on the ammeter box bj. With a little gray spray paint, it will look like you started out with a UL listed (expensive) electrical box.
I've made round holes with a torch and later with jig saw prior to using a manual hole punch. I won't go back. A hydraulic hole punch? I'm green with envy! :)
The LG solar laminates I bought had the cells on top of the glass. That is, from the sun side, EVA-cell-EVA-glass-white tyvek(?). I thought the glass was supposed to be on the sun side. :o So, I have to wonder why the glass couldn't be some other material? It must deal with expansion and contraction on the cells.
It does take a lot of time on the 'other items'. Much more time than I would have imagined. This weekend is strictly devoted to the 'other' items.
Thanks for posting bj. It's definitely worth the read. I'm looking forward to more. Inquiring minds...
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The LG solar laminates I bought had the cells on top of the glass. That is, from the sun side, EVA-cell-EVA-glass-white tyvek(?). "
This is weird... Surely not EVA on top.... it gets messy too easily.... everything sticks to it. I suspect some other film on top of the EVA that does not attract dirt like a magnet. It would make the vacuum impossible also.
Usually tedlar backing. Tyvek was not as good as normal plastic sheet for backing. Tedlar is good stuff, but expensive.
Do you have any pics of the LG panels of which you speak... I'm amazed to put it bluntly... :o
.............oztules
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Thanks Oz, Phil. Oz: 6x6 supposedly tested,"A" grade, but not tabbed. Did a quick dirty test on a box, 1000W light source. All equal, but, that's a very
rough test. Pic tomorrow, raining cats and dogs, and the camera is 100m away.
Phil: I would have thought glass on the outside too. You are bang on about the other stuff, but I've been at it for a while, as I knew I was going to do
this, one way or another. (back to tabbing)
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My Sharp seem to have the EVA on the top ( sun side) also and yes it is rather sticky.
Pine needles will stick there in wind, and they are always dusty looking after rain.
So they seems to require extra work to keep clear
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For OZ----still tabbing
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For a break from tabbing, I more or less finished the cabinet for the panels. All that's left basically is wiring, and the Volt meter. (on order)
And, just to prove that I have been doing some tabbing. The pic is of finished ones. One thing I have found out, is that iron temp is critical
to making good time. I started out maxing it, but had to go back sometimes, and remelt. Lowering the iron temp
to just above melt (50-75 deg) made for one pass, good spread etc.
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Now that brings back memories...... chin up, it's nearly winter now, and partly cloudy.... 19000 wh today.... tabbing tabbing.....
I liked hot iron and fast movement. But whatever works is good.
.....oztules
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BJ,
Looks nice. How did you isolate your buss bars from each other and the metal cabinet ? Dave B.
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That's a sweet looking panel box, well done getting things lined up soo nice :D
...something of an awkward comment here....um..Have you tried stringing any of those cells together yet? Afraid it looks like you are tabbing the backs and plan on stringing them together on the fronts?
The few cells I worked with, were very difficult to get the series string connections as straight as the tabbing connections..the ribbon seems to walk more during the stringing than during the tabbing and doing the fronts first (the important side to be straight) and then string the backs seemed to be the goods..
Hopefully you have it worked out and the concern is groundless...
Keep at it!
Cheers, Dave
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;D Oz and yes, I was surprised that less heat was better. No smarts on my part, just started before the iron was hot. Was
better, then got worse. Then the light bulb flashed.
Dave B. Had a long chunk of phenolic bar scavenged from a 600v starter cabinet. About 1 inch thick, so just made sure screws
from each side only went about half way, and they were staggered as well.
Dave--not an awkward comment at all, I was concerned as well. Fred sent me darn near a whole box of slightly chipped cells, as extras, so
I experimented. This way seemed a bit easier for laying them out, and the front wasn't too bad. I am being very fussy on the
back, so everything lines up. (he said with a bit of hope) If I'm wrong, you'll wake up wondering who is cursing a blue streak.
I also made the tabs a bit long, in case I do have to Z a bit.
thanks to all. back to t a b b i n g.
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Things I learned with tabbing.
1. It is easier to tab on your tabbing bench.
2. Noting 1, is is easier to tab BOTH sides of the cell on the tabbing bench.
3. This means to within a quarter of an inch of the edges on the back, and an inch overhang on the front.
4. This means that when you string, you only need to hold it all in place for a second or less as you join the 1" overhang to the back of the next cell.
This means two things. First, stringing up your cells is very fast, other wise it is slower than the long tabbing of the front.
And.... you get to concentrate on straight and spaced, rather than how well or poorly the tab went on.
This makes a huge difference to the panel build part of the story. Stringing and spacing becomes a doddle, and you get to do all your tabbing on your favourite work bench..... not hanging over a panel or stringing bench somewhere else where there is room for the full strings (6feet long)
A 2 meter long right angle straight edge makes for perfectly straight strings, and I used 3/16 square tool steel as the spacer. So getting it perfect is easy, and holding it in place is simple as you are only doing a 1/4 inch of tabbing to join them up.
Whatever works for you is fine for me, but thats how I found to be the easiest way.
Best with it, I almost wish I could do some more........
................oztules
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The weather here will be nice pretty soon Oz. Lots of room for you and your better half.
Had to try ;D. Thanks for the tips, I'm sure they will come in handy.
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2. Noting 1, is is easier to tab BOTH sides of the cell on the tabbing bench.
And.... you get to concentrate on straight and spaced, rather than how well or poorly the tab went on.
Ding..That clears up any worries. Thanks for that tip for the big cells with the long thin solder stripe on back. I could not see how that would come together, but of course tab both sides and leave longer front solder tabs for series joining ;D
On the small 3"x 6" 4 amp cells, the fronts get/got tabbed and left long enough to hit the large solder pads on the back..At least that's what seemed easy with those.
You're in good hands with the wizard bj.. I"ll be following along from the back corner wearing the pointy hat.
Great fun, Dave
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;) Dave, just remember I'm only lending you the pointy hat for a little while, I will need it back.
If Oz hadn't gone through all the heartaches, and then documented it so well, I would not be
doing this. I, and any one else that tries this, owe him big time.
Sobering thought---this will be over 2000 feet of soldering.
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It occurs to me that I may have confused things a bit, but I think this pic is what Oz
was talking about. Might be hard to make out, as I tin the entire strip on the front, hopefully easier later.
Anyway, tab sticking out from the back is longer than required for the next front, so some adjusting
can be done.
I suspect this is backwards side wise, from what Oz was mentioning, but the general idea is the same.
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Yikes......
Not sure if i can see it clearly... but the overhang should be from the blue side (front).
If you overhang from the back side (grey) then the connection will occur on the blue side..... and you definitely don't want that.
All interconnects must be on the rear sides (grey) otherwise height differentials will exist on the blue side where you interconnect, and these will break the cell when the vacuum comes on, ......... the height difference on the front where two tabs join will be small mountains against the EVA against the glass.
I'll explain that again/different.
The front tab should be about 7 inches (blue side)
The back tab about 5 1/2 inches long(grey side).
Is this how yours are, or did you go 7 inches on the grey, and 5 1/2 on the blue ...... this could be a real problem.....
................oztules
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OK Oz, Yikes is a good word. Get your point about connections under the glass. Tried a few, (the test cells) and although they are flat,
your point is well made.
Again, on the test cells, I tried to change it, and it's pretty easy. Only time, and that's no big deal.
Decision on those done is still in pondering stage, rest will be interconnects on back.
Glad you caught me at this stage. Many many thanks.
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Glad you caught me at this stage. Many many thanks.
An old quote, can't remember where from, but went:
"Thank goodness we're going so slowly..... for we may be going in the wrong direction!"
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Glad you caught me at this stage. Many many thanks.
"Thank goodness we're going so slowly..... for we may be going in the wrong direction!"
Certainly done that! usually from going too fast, however.
Tom
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Just an update. Course direction change made, and at about the 950 cells tabbed mark. Just ran out of
tabbing wire. :( Learned lots, and would/likely will do some more. Not until I have these in panels though.
Bit of trivia: just about 1/4 mile of tabbing, three worn out tips. :o
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Gee, time is coming to put these to good use. Near 1000 cells is a LOT of work, and oodles of time. well done from down here.
If you keep going you will have the worlds largest home built system me thinks...
Are you going to get new batteries for your camera... for the step by step, blow by blow making the oven, making the panels etc :)
We are all following your progress.
I had meant to do an article about this, but I figure you will do a better job of it, and can bring to the table your do's and don'ts.
Best with it
.............oztules
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bj;
Do you see tabbing in your sleep?
I thought of doing some of those but with the attention span of a gold fish, shaky hands and poor fine vision, I figured I best not.
Appreciate the share.
Tom
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Tom--in my sleep, yes. I don't do cells after the second pot of coffee, shakes are way tooooo bad, and I
wear 2X cheaters to do the cells. ;D
Oztules--I knew it would be a long job, (you warned me) Now on to testing. I have done some spot checks
and found no problems, but time to get serious about it.
Have been working on other parts when I could not bear to look at another cell, oven is not quite done yet,
and I need to get some new EVA. The stuff I have/had clouds when it's cooked. It was free from a friend, so
I got what I paid for.
Which brings me to a question, if I may. Do you still have the link to the supplier in China? I had it, but
lost it to the lightning strike. Fred has it, but shipping is silly high.
Finally camera is working, have some shots, trying to get into the habit.
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It's a lot dearer than when I bought it... but you need over 100 meters, so haggle for a lot lot less.
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/400691/200408635-317352087/Solar-EVA-Film-for-solar-cell-encapsulation-with-TUV-certification-1000mm-free-of-shipping.html
Plenty of other folks seel it too.
http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/574619166-Free-Shipping-Solar-Cells-Panel-EVA-film-sheet-Encapsulant-1M-x60M-NEW-wholesalers.html
this is the cheapest for free shipping 100 meters for less than $700
http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/438567916-Solar-EVA-Film-wholesalers.html
................oztules
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Once again, many thanks Oz. It has gone up, but, kind of need it no matter what.
Bookmarked, and saved on two computers this time, just in case. ;D
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Bj-
I don't know if this stuff is even worth looking at, but Smooth-on.com has a new Solaris Silicon Encapsulation for made for solar panels. By the pictures, you pour it on.
This is where I buy smooth-on 300 to encapsulate the stators on my windmills. I also used it on my last set of blades. I'll never go back to fiberglass resin again. No side effects on an aging body. Great product instructions and customer support is the best.
http://www.smooth-on.com/Solaris%3D-Silicon/c1381/index.html (http://www.smooth-on.com/Solaris%3D-Silicon/c1381/index.html)
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philb,
That stuff looks awfully expensive. It looks like maybe what my panels seem to be made of.
These seem to have a ceramic backing of some sort with a softish plastic like coating over the cells in the front ( not glass)
They are a pita to clean... and of course the birds love em.
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Phil,
That looks fiendishly expensive.... I like the true EVA. It is tried and true.... and cheap as nuts. $24 for a 2mx1m panel for front and back EVA. It also means a glass front... easy to clean... in fact if you have 45 degree panels like I have... you don't need to clean.
I don't want to stop anyone playing with something I have not tried.... but gee I don't see any advantage.
I would like some to use to encapsulate electronic boards... thats where I see it as very useful.
.................oztules
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Many thanks for the link Philb. I do believe I will try that stuff for another (unrelated) problem
project I have. And of course do some experimenting once I have some.
For the panels, I think I will stick with EVA/glass. (word play intended). I figure it has been torture
tested on windshield glass long enough to be proven.
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For the money, EVA is the way to go. Just offering an alternative. that might be of use. :)
Also, as Oz pointed out, there are other uses for the product. Who knows what you guys might come up with.
BTW - My solar laminations are pressed on the front of the glass. I have tried to photograph them, but none have turned out good enough to see the EVA sheet separately. They are always dirty - even after a 2 inch rain. I envy you Oz.
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EVA arrived on Friday. I think a little experimentation is in order.