Anotherpower.com Forum
Renewable Energy Questions/Discussion => Renewable Energy Q&A => Topic started by: WooferHound on March 21, 2012, 08:17:42 am
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My last battery was a 12v 8D truck battery. I noticed that the top of the battery tended to stay wet or very moist.
Now I have two 6v golf cart batteries. While looking over the system yesterday I noticed that the top of those batteries was wet.
I looked into all these batteries when they were full charged and dumping and they were slowly bubbling, maybe a bubble every couple of seconds. It doesn't seem like this slow bubbling would cause moisture on top of the battery.
I have 2 stages of dumping in my charge controller.
A 3 amp dump comes on at 14.6 volts and
a 6 amp dump comes on at 14.7 volts
Sometimes when I'm not home and using the power, the battery voltage will get up to the 14.7 volt stage at 11:AM in the morning and remain there all day, maybe that is too high.
I'm just afraid that the acid may be getting out of the battery. What would cause the top of the batteries to get wet like that ?
For more information about my Solar Power, visit . . .
http://timmythy.home.mindspring.com/re-power.htm
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woof-
from what i've witnessed, the water from a battery will evaporate, while the acid will not. so if a tiny bit of acid gets out here and there and maybe it's a cumulative effect, and they start looking wet?
an easy test would be to dab a bit of baking soda on the wet spot, if it bubbles a lot, you know it's acid.
your 14.7 does sound a bit high to me... do you have to add water often?
is the wattage of your solar pretty large compared to the AH of your batteries, causing very rapid recharge rates that may make them bubble more intensely than normal?
adam
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I agree with Adam; 14.7V are the perfect max. bulk charge voltage @ 15-20deg. C., but after that, you should lower the voltage to 13.6V +/- maintenance...
Keeping the charge @ 14.7V will produce some moisture around the caps of your battery, and you probably will have to water your batteries often... (Unless your ambient temperature are @ -20deg. C, then it's perfect for maintenance... ;D )
Edit:
The idéal scheme are to charge your batteries up to 14.4V (@27.7C.), then reduce the voltage to 13.2-13.6V for maintenance charge.
Also; i'd say that temperature compensation are underrated. I'd like to say; add 0.15V for each 5 deg.C. below 25C.; subtract 0.15V for each 5C.above 25C. (assuming a 12V bank. (the usual spec.are 0.03V/cell/celsius.) Add when temp are below 25C. and subtract when above.)
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OK , I tried the baking soda test and it seems to be only water.
the tops were almost dried up from what I saw yesterday.
I think I will lower my dump voltages by a tenth of a volt.
I have 225 amphours of batteries and charge at about 9 amps.
max temperature lately has been about 90f (32c)
it can get up to 105f (40c) in the hottest summers
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(You managed to post just after my reply... ;) )
I'd say 14.7 are a bit high for max bulk charge @ 32C: set it to 14.25V max. bulk, and then if you
could reduce to 13.2V, it would be idéal... :)
Edit:
@ 9A on an 225Ah bank, you're in no danger in damaging the bank, so you're safe. :) But keeping the high top charge voltage will lead to more frequent watering needs... ;)
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I was planning on adding some wind power later so I decided to use Ghurds Dump Load Controllers to control the charge on the battery. It has 2 adjustable stages, they can be set to any threshold voltage. Stage one is selectable at 3 or 6 amps, Stage two can be 6 or 12 amps.
From your suggestions, I might set stage two at 14.25v 6 amps, and stage 1 at 14.35v 3 amps . . .
I think there is plenty of time to think about it, trying to cloud up and rain a few days
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From what you propose, you'd charge with 6A @ 14.35V, and then with 3A @ 14.25V (assuming perfect solar conditions.); sounds perfect for your battery bank. ;)
3A into an 225Ah bank are no more than one needs to keep that bank healthy for maintenance. :)
Do not forget to manually equalize the bank every 1-3 months... *:)
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I got enough sun to get it all reset to some lower voltages. I'll explain my 2 stage dumpload charge controller more clearly and the new settings.
There is a maximum of 9 amps charging current from my solar array.
The charge controller is 2 independently adjustable dump stages.
The way I have it set now
When the battery voltage reaches 14.25 the second stage controller kicks in using PWM to pulse a 6 amp load and maintain the voltage at 14.25, this is what will be happening 95% of the time.
When ever the charging amps are higher than 6 amps, the 6 amp second stage will not be able to hold the voltage back anymore and the battery volts will creep up.
If the voltage reaches 14.35 then the first stage dump controller also kicks in using PWM to pulse a 3 amp load to maintain it at 14.35 volts.
If I add more panels or a wind generator, I can switch to higher current dump loads.
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Woof,
Any chance he liquid you are seeing is from humidity?
Rover
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I am with Rover on this one, your dew point is above some of your overnight temps, and ditto for the comments on dump voltage, actually highlights why controllers have three stages.
Allan
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Woof,
If you have them in the metal building in your pic's, I bet it is condensate from the temperature difference in your battery to the surrounding air.
Kenneth
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I agree with Rover on this one Woof. Mine do the same thing.
I arranged a 24v group of 8d's and GC2 batteries in my 72v array and one of the first things I noticed was the batteries cooled down from being cycled less. From then on, the 8d's seem to be moist on top for than the GC2's.
I'll post a pic in a bit even though they are all dry at the moment. I don't worry about it other than it seems the terminals show signs of wanting to corrode.
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Went out to take a pic and noticed the tops are starting to get wet. The batteries have been pretty warm today and now it has cooled down in the shed which has caused the sweating. Anyway, hope you can tell a bit about these in this pic Woof.
(http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20203&g2_serialNumber=2)
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BE CAREFUL with water on top of the battery it is conductive!
take your vom and check it out. be sure to have ventilation
If your room is not ventilated any spark can cause a hi decibel event you don't want !
i had a battery blow up when trying to start my small bull dozer in a small shed.
For more info on battery's go to this link
http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2979&PN=1
there is 11 pages there.
I have permission to move this information to this forum but haven't had the time to do
so as yet
if there is enough interest Ill get on it soon??
Isaiah
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::) Water does not conduct electricity, water with impurities in it may.
The top of batteries should be kept clean, true.
Hydrogen is explosive in air within the limits of 4-74% give or take a bit, true.
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4-74% .. I know tha was a typo.. I know because I'm king of them (Typos)
:)
It actually doesn't not take much to help ventilate a bank and explosions are rare, otheriwise you'd see a lot "booms" on the highway.
Isiah.. I have no idea what you did to cause one to explode, feel free to chime in.
Rover
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BE CAREFUL with water on top of the battery it is conductive!
take your vom and check it out. be sure to have ventilation
If your room is not ventilated any spark can cause a hi decibel event you don't want !
i had a battery blow up when trying to start my small bull dozer in a small shed.
For more info on battery's go to this link
http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2979&PN=1
there is 11 pages there.
I have permission to move this information to this forum but haven't had the time to do
so as yet
if there is enough interest Ill get on it soon??
Isaiah
Thanks for the information. True about the big bang. Also, I had a single cell in a traction battery group go pow outside. I hooked positive to negative and negative to positive which created a spark. Kaboom. Not fun. The batteries I posted are in a 16 ft tall 45 by 60 foot building. Ummm... The echo would be cool ONCE.
Anyway, I can see no practical way to keep these batteries dry year around. At certain times of the year, I expect to see them sweat. I just check connections more regular and keep them clean with dust wiped off regularly. We have more dust than rain most times. Bummer for us for sure.
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Well I know ONE way to make them explode, and I can tell you from first hand it does not feel good to have it happen near you. As I posted here. (http://where.ww.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,53.msg257.html#msg257) This one a squirrel had shorted the HV line to the house voltage at the transformer, of course while this battery was on charge.
(http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1154&g2_serialNumber=2)
(http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1157&g2_serialNumber=2)
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Had one do that on the engine stand, caused of course by my stupidity. I knew the battery was weak,
but just threw the charger on high, waited a bit, and cranked. Spark on the charger clamp, and it was all
over. :o
Did make me glad I always were eye protection in the shop. Clothes, after a wash were junk.
All in all, a cheap lesson.
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http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2979&PN=1
follow it through
well Mr Rover it was a old gentleman that still uses the old delco 32 volt battery's that told me when he seen the the accident area what had caused the event!!
Now we don't use the dozer every year and it was setting and my son put the battery in and had to crank on it some and it tried to start and quit he hit the key again and boom .The whole case is shattered. the only thing we can figure is that one of the posts must have caused a spark.
My son didnt go by the shed for two years!!
Most of the battery's in vehicles running up and down the roads have what they sell you as maintenance free battery's and most are not maintained properly and are low on water!
AofJ where are you going to get water that dose not have enough impurity's in it to conduct?
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AofJ where are you going to get water that dose not have enough impurity's in it to conduct?
I used to regularly make water from our reverse-osmosis unit that had so little conductivity, I couldn't measure it. (I know, because I was trying to make an alarm for when a container was full - ended up using an infra-red beam, because we didn't want to contaminate it with a float switch)
I believe a lot of the condensed-steam distilled water is similarly pure.
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Tangent-
I believe a lot of the condensed-steam distilled water is similarly pure.
I think it would depend on how the condensed-steam water was condensed and stored.
A guy I corrosponded with for a while was a pro at water impurities.
If the sample had 'unusual test results', his lab would test for a chemical that came out of the sample container.
He said the testing device could almost be calibrated by the junk in the water that came from the sample container.
The sample containers were new plastic bottles (of the same type as pepsi/coke/water bottles).
Glass sounds like the 'purest' condensing and storage to me, as far as DIY goes.
Maybe not.
G-
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::) Distilled water such that one may buy has very low conductivity, certainly good enough for topping up lead acid batteries @ 2V/cell, admittedly it would never pass muster as stator cooling water on a large generator running at 16Kv but for our batteries it's as good as you will get.
My original reference was to keeping the tops of batteries clean.
Allan
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''I believe a lot of the condensed-steam distilled water is similarly pure''.
The water can only be as pure as the still it comes out of !!!! then when it come in contact with the earth's air
it is deadly contaminated.
At any rate any water that the average person will in counter on top of a flooded lead acid battery will conduct electricity.
You guy are drifting way off topic.
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You guy are drifting way off topic.
Well, not really. In the interests of "accuracy", the comment that "water conducts electricity" had to be corrected, as Alan said - pure water doesn't. It's the contaminants in it that make the difference. (And not ALL contaminants will make it conduct).
I will concede that the water-looking-stuff on the tops of batteries is likely to conduct enough electricity to be a problem :)
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Well, distilling water is probably the best way to purify it. Depending upon what your contaminants are, whether any of them form azeotropes with water, what materials your still is made out of, how many equivalent equilibrium stages, and of course what you are exposing your water to and storing it in will determine how pure you can get it. Back in the lab in my ChemE days we used glass beads in a couple glass columns for more relatively pure distilled water from a tap water source. The higher purity stuff was stored in Pyrex branded borosilicate laboratory glassware as well. Using double distillation you can remove both the less volatile and the more volatile contaminates to leave very pure water.
More to Woof's original question, in an old battery manual it said to wipe the top with a damp cloth, - use one you can toss though would be my advice. Sulfuric acid used to be called oil of vitriol. It leaves a greasy/glassy appearing coating on the surface that never seems to evaporate. A solution of battery acid will conduct, the film on the top of your batteries can contribute to the batteries self discharge and also corrosion of your terminals. Periodically wiping them off helps to minimize this.
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Where do you find pure water??
My intent was to prevent some one or something from being hurt.
So if this should come to pass its on you.
Now turn off your computer and take a vom out and check out your battery tops!!
I can now see why not very many come to this forum.
Wow Isaiah. Don't take posts so personal. No-one was picking.
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More to Woof's original question, in an old battery manual it said to wipe the top with a damp cloth, - use one you can toss though would be my advice. Sulfuric acid used to be called oil of vitriol. It leaves a greasy/glassy appearing coating on the surface that never seems to evaporate. A solution of battery acid will conduct, the film on the top of your batteries can contribute to the batteries self discharge and also corrosion of your terminals. Periodically wiping them off helps to minimize this.
Thanks for the info Rich. Nice to know.
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No problem this is my last post here.
wal mart sells a acid detector and cleaner is a spray can dose a good job!
Good by.
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Guy, you are strong here. But stop the battery stuff.
Nice to have you here but go more slowly . . .
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No problem this is my last post here.
wal mart sells a acid detector and cleaner is a spray can dose a good job!
Good by.
No need to say bye. Come back when you can.
Just curious though, is the detector in a spray can? I was at Wal-Mart today and didn't notice a detector. I did notice and get two cans. One cleaner and one post protector. I'll keep looking until you reply. Thanks for your suggestion.
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#1, 14 oz spray battery cleaner and acid detector black & white can in battery section , works good but best to use it out side and dont get it in the cells.
#2 1 oz spray ncp-2 battery corrosion preventive use on the clamps and posts works good. look around the battery places and you may be able to get a larger can. looks like a red paint when you apply it.
Isaiah
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#1, 14 oz spray battery cleaner and acid detector black & white can in battery section , works good but best to use it out side and dont get it in the cells.
#2 1 oz spray ncp-2 battery corrosion preventive use on the clamps and posts works good. look around the battery places and you may be able to get a larger can. looks like a red paint when you apply it.
Isaiah
What I did notice was a can, black and white, which said cleaner. The other can said protector. That can does have a red cap.
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I have a can I bought several years ago at Wal-e-World.
NOCO H2SO4 Battery Cleaner and Acid Detector.
NOCO part no. E-404
Sprays a dark yellow foam that turns pink when in contact with battery acid.
I have seen it also at Advance Auto Parts and Auto Zone.
I am not connected with this or any company that sells it.
I works good, just rinse it off and spray it again until there is no pink.
Kenneth
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battery cleaner &acid detector
A noco product bar code #46100404 part # E404
055-000-1-0043 ask the wal mart auto center guy to order some.
it dose sell here in lower Mi.
disclaimer
I am in no way connected to this company and have no interest in their monetary gain.
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Thank y'all very much.
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I am more confused than usual, why oh why would anybody want to buy a pressure pack of something to detect acid on top of batteries!
As already said wipe the top with a damp disposable rag/paper towel, job done!
What can it possibly prove to spray with something that is probably baking soda. Yes there will be a little trace of acid if the batteries have been boiling, we know that because we are informed users of batteries, pressure cans are part of the problem not the solution. ???
Allan
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I am more confused than usual, why oh why would anybody want to buy a pressure pack of something to detect acid on top of batteries!
As already said wipe the top with a damp disposable rag/paper towel, job done!
What can it possibly prove to spray with something that is probably baking soda. Yes there will be a little trace of acid if the batteries have been boiling, we know that because we are informed users of batteries, pressure cans are part of the problem not the solution. ???
Allan
Allan, I would like the detector for one main reason. To find the source of an acid leak. If I find a leak around a post, I replace the battery. Right now, when I can no longer keep a terminal clean, I replace the battery but, if the detector shows a leak coming from a cap, I then can buy a gasket. No longer would I have to guess.
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Fair enough but, for those of us with deep pockets and short arms selastic was invented, it serves as a sealing compound around posts on aging but still useful batteries, caps are vented for a reason.
There will always be a trace amount of acid, after equalizing particularly, that's why wiping down the tops of batteries is a routine maintenance and why we don't place items like inverters above batteries.
I am not trying to start a war of words, I just look at things practically and cost effectively, it realy is not hard to look after lead acid batteries just follow a few simple well documented rules and they will serve you well for a long time.
Allan
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-- U P D A T E --
I had reset the dump voltage from 14.7 volts down to 14.25 volts to try and fix the problem with water on the batteries. I checked on them today while they were dumping at the new lower voltage. There were a couple of little specks of water around the filler caps but that may have been from condensation caused by an unusually cold morning.
The batteries seem to be holding the voltage up a bit too as the resting voltage now likes to stay at 12.7 volts instead of 12.6 volts from before changing the dump setting.
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14.7V is kind of high, even with solar (which works a few hours a day).
Higher voltage "boils" batteries, which makes them 'boil'. Go figure. :P
When older batteries boil more or use more water, they can be getting near the end of their service life.
Don't shoot the messenger. :-\
G-