Anotherpower.com Forum
Renewable Energy Questions/Discussion => Wind and Hydro => Topic started by: bvan1941 on January 31, 2012, 10:19:23 pm
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Gents,
I think I have inadvertently pulled another subject ("a little Gem") off topic by asking about this brake removal process. If that's so I apologize. If anyone has experience on FANUC servo brake removals, I would appreciate any help provided. By the way a 7/32 Allen wrench just doesn't feel right when trying to remove the (4) recessed Allen head screws from front of the unit. I am assuming the case has to be split to access the brake assembly. That assumption is from looking at a FANUC servo picture "Birdhouse" was showing on Servos from another Forum.
Bill
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Gents,
I think I have inadvertently pulled another subject ("a little Gem") off topic by asking about this brake removal process. If that's so I apologize. If anyone has experience on FANUC servo brake removals, I would appreciate any help provided. By the way a 7/32 Allen wrench just doesn't feel right when trying to remove the (4) recessed Allen head screws from front of the unit. I am assuming the case has to be split to access the brake assembly. That assumption is from looking at a FANUC servo picture "Birdhouse" was showing on Servos from another Forum.
Bill
Hey Bill, this is Bill
You might want to send a PM to "birdhouse" and "97fishmt" cuz they are very fluent in Fanuc servo motors. I think "birdhouse" even talked about pulling the brake off of one in "another" life. ::) (pun intended) I'd love to help ya but can't on the Fanuc's . Good luck, Bill......
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Bill,
Thanks, I should have thought of that----Duh! LOL (When in doubt ask the Teacher!)
Bill
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bill-
yea, i've removed the brake from an A-06b xxxxxxxxx unit.
all allen head bolts are metric (japan). and just so ya know it's pronounced "fanoook"
so ya, remove the end cap, and yank the encoder. it's of no use to ya. then, you remove the long bolts that hold the thing together, and begin prying/banging with chisels, bars ect. to break the case between the rear case and the laminations. you want to "pull" the rear bearing from it's press yet keep the front bearing in its home. problem is, the rear bearing has a spring washer in front of it, so you have to pry (easily) for about 3/8" to collapse the spring washer, then pry (hard) to actually get the bearing to move within the press.
the other beautiful part, it the coils are right behind where your sharp tools are being inserted, so be careful!
you want to do it this way, because it will leave the mags right next to the coils. i've never tried, but have read about how removing the magnet rotor from the coils/laminations, can greatly reduce the magnetic strenght of the rotor.
one the back half of the case is off, you can remove the break pretty easily. i also took the opertunity to solder/wire nut on #6 copper extensions to the three hot leads within the case. i removed the funny prug, and ran the three wires out the hole.
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af78/birdhouseadam/turbine/fanuc001.jpg)
adam
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Birdhouse,
Thanks for the help, you are correct the screws are 5mm . That pix you posted here is the one I've been studying (On another Forum). I'm not sure from your directions about which way (or why) to compress the spring behind the "press fit plate" the tach was mounted on. If I'm reading you correctly, I would first have to split the case apart (as per the picture) just ahead of the (4) prong receptacle right? Basically, reach the brake from splitting the case apart , not going in from the back end.
I can understand about not removing armature and being careful of the coils when splitting the case apart!
Bill
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bill, it's been a few years since i did that. the more i think about it, the spring washer is on the other side of the bearing, so it should fall out when the case is split.
yea, you can't get to the brake through the encoder cover (red usually)
if you go shaft to back of motor on the case, it should be smooth aluminum, then kinda ribbed (steel laminations) <------CRACK between these--->, then back to smooth aluminum.
what are the specs on your motor? and if you don't mind asking, how much did it run ya? oh and system voltage?
adam
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Birdhouse,
Here are some specs on the servo: Fanuc MODEL 10F TYPE AO6B-0351-B731 PULSE CODER $40 (+)shipping= $69.28
148Vac ,21Amps, 3.1Kw
13.5 rpm/Volt = Cut-in Approx. 202 rpm@15V (all calculated)
Is it a great buy, probably not but for the price- it's OK. Already working on a much, much better motor with a lot more wattage between cut-in and 300 RPMs. Again, I've learned from both you and 97 fishmt. You both are generous, helping us guys trying to use Servos. I'll try and document my progress, observations and mistakes.
How has your servo been producing?
Thanks again,
Bill
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bill-
that sounds like a decent one! how'd you get rpm/v figures if the brake hasn't been removed yet? or are you just guessing with math? many of these don't follow exactly as the math would dictate.
mine does pretty well. it cuts in a little late, but that also keep it out of stall. i have no anemometer, or Kwh recording stuff, so it's all guesstimates, but i think it starts charging at 12mph and i've seen over 700w out of it according to my ts-60 dumping while batteries where on float.
one of these days i'll get some data logging stuff going on. but i've gotta get the little 4' mill jerry sold me finished and up in the air first!
adam
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Hello!
Many many times I've heard/read about the magnets losing their power if the rotors are removed. I'll not say it isn't true, but I will say that in the numerous servos I've taken apart I haven't noticed this happening.
I've a Kollmorgen servo that I pulled out of a scrap barrel. When I found it the rotor was on the top of the junk, and the rest at the bottom. I don't know how long the rotor was out of the stator, but when I got it home I put it on a shelf, where it sat (in two pieces) for over a year before I got around to putting it back together. Once assembled, shorting any one of the three legs, while spinning by hand would produce a sizable spark and make turning the shaft very difficult. Short all three legs, and you can hardly turn the shaft.
Before I had ever heard "issues" with ruining the magnets I took apart several Allen Bradly servos and a few Emmerson's. None of these servos were put back into their applications which they were intended for, but each one would behave the same way as the Kollmorgen.
There a small electric motor repair business just down the road and while there I asked one of their people about this issue and he "shrugged" and said they're careful not to damage them when they remove them, when asked how he said "we keep em wrapped with shop rags, so they don't collect $#!+". Now this guy didn't appear to be the sharpest tool in the drawer but he did seem to have some experience.
Again, I'm not saying it isn't so, just that I haven't seen proof.
I will mention, that I would NEVER take apart a servo if it was expected to ever act like a SERVO motor again. Most every servo I took apart I wrecked (not that I cared) the encoder/resolver in the process.
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Birdhouse,
Yes I calculated cut-in and rpm/v speeds based on formulas. No actual hard data figures as yet! Being in a seasonal lower wind area,
Though this first Servo doesn't reflect ideal characteristics for me (price was right), I lean towards units with higher operating voltage, lower rpms and reasonable amperage. Thanks to you,12ax7 and 97fishmt, documenting your experience, advice and pointing me and others to look at Manufacturers data sheets for additional information, really helps.
You guys have given us Noob's a good head start in picking better units to start with. We'll see if we can produce something like you all have made! What the ---- It's fun, personally satisfying and keeps friends and neighbors entertained !! Keeps me off the streets!
12ax7--I'm going to try REAL HARD to heed your advice and not remove the rotor from it's setting during disassembly.
I'm sure lots of us would like more follow up info on your past / current projects as well
Bill
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Many many times I've heard/read about the magnets losing their power if the rotors are removed. I'll not say it isn't true, but I will say that in the numerous servos I've taken apart I haven't noticed this happening.
Again, I'm not saying it isn't so, just that I haven't seen proof.
Young Mr. Fungus experienced a 35% or 50% drop (can't recall which) from having the rotor out for just a couple minutes.
He had documented, in detail, all the operating stats before and after.
I have/had a small (100W~200W?) 100V 3000RPM one here that wouldn't make 3V AC at a few 100 RPM.
The sticker said "Do not remove this part" (paraphrased), but the screws were obviously removed at some point.
Gotta love ebay. >:(
I personally dinkered up a few, but did not save the before : after papers.
Mine are all small. Can't recall what size Fungus' was, but guessing it was not 'big'.
Could be the smaller ones are more suseptable to the damage?
I don't leave the rotor out of an ECM without keepers on the magnets.
I even ruined a muffin fan PMA by leaving the rotor out too long.
G-
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mike- thanks for the kind words. i just keep after it and it gets better and better. at the bottom i've put in a pic of my latest finished project.
12ax- i really have no idea if removing the rotor can cause damage, as i've never tried. could very well be an old wives tail? either way, if it's a motor i care about, i try to keep it fairly together just to stay on the safe side.
bill- i'd be curious to hear actual v/rpm versus mathed v/rpm. and how much they vary!
adam
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af78/birdhouseadam/solar/roof.jpg)
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Adam,
Will do.
Right now I'm wrestling with some screws that are "tighter than a bulls a-- in fly time." LOL
Bill
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when i encounter tough screws, i go screw driver, to impact driver, to impact with break loose goo, to heat, to angle grinder. the last always gets the bolt/screw out, though usually causes harm in the process.
good luck!
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Many many times I've heard/read about the magnets losing their power if the rotors are removed. I'll not say it isn't true, but I will say that in the numerous servos I've taken apart I haven't noticed this happening.
Again, I'm not saying it isn't so, just that I haven't seen proof.
Young Mr. Fungus experienced a 35% or 50% drop (can't recall which) from having the rotor out for just a couple minutes.
He had documented, in detail, all the operating stats before and after.
I have/had a small (100W~200W?) 100V 3000RPM one here that wouldn't make 3V AC at a few 100 RPM.
The sticker said "Do not remove this part" (paraphrased), but the screws were obviously removed at some point.
Gotta love ebay. >:(
I personally dinkered up a few, but did not save the before : after papers.
Mine are all small. Can't recall what size Fungus' was, but guessing it was not 'big'.
Could be the smaller ones are more suseptable to the damage?
I don't leave the rotor out of an ECM without keepers on the magnets.
I even ruined a muffin fan PMA by leaving the rotor out too long.
G-
Like I said, not saying it isn't true! 30/50% decrease in what? Magnetic force? or power out put?
Don't know if this will work, but here's a pic of the rotor/magnets
http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4822/Not_quiteperfect.jpg
and here is a end view of the rotor. Blue tape is covering bearing and the black area is a voided/hollow. Notice how thin the magnets are!
http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4822/Rotor_endview.jpg
I still have problems understanding WHY magnets that are on a metal surface/keeper would lose power?
With out having a method of measurement all I can say is that, when it was possible I turned the rotors by hand and observed the difference in force needed with and without the leads shorted and noticed no real difference before or after the rotor was removed/reinstalled.
If a servo motor needs it's bearing replaced, how do they press the bearing off with the rotor still in the stator?
AGAIN, I am not saying do as I did, just saying what I observed in my little world.
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Just a slightly documented opinion of magnets losing strength----I think some of it might depend on what type
of magnet is involved.
Just to do it, I removed the armature from a small cheap DC motor. I had tested it with a model aircraft prop on
it, and measured the RPM. Anyway, put it back together (as exactly as I could) and tried again. Got an approx.
25% loss in rpm. Power draw was less, and I guess that makes sense. This one had ceramic mags in it.
Tried the same thing with one that had alnico mags and got so little difference, if any, I couldn't measure it.
Only one test, so it proves nothing, but is food for thought?
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bj, I have never heard claims that ceramic magnets from standard DC motors would loose their strength. I serviced a number of Leesson and Baldor DC motors, ranging in size 1/3 to 2 hp. These were all commutator/brush type motors. Often needing the bearing replaced and the commutators turned down, sometimes needing their brush holders replaced. These motors were removed from serviced, repaired and returned to service without any (performance) problems observed.
I believe that the loss of magnetic strength is limited to SERVO motors, which use rare earth magnets.
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Birdhouse,
I've reread what you've posted for disassembly of this Fanuc have tried to follow them and have some questions.
I've removed the screws form the front of the case and have split the case apart just about 1/8"all the round. I seem to be stopped from spreading the case any farther by something that feels real solid. You mentioned there was a "spring washer" that had to be compressed during this process.
First question: Is this what's stopping me from splitting it apart? If it is, is this the "spring washer" visible from the back end? If it is, must it be collapsed inward or back towards the plate that held the "tachometer"?
Second Question: The bearing/rear case probably will not slide easily off the shaft because it being a "press fit" on the armature shaft correct?
Probably being too cautious but then I don't want to ruin the motor either. Should I keep forcing the case apart at this point ?
Bill
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bill-
like i said, it was a few years ago. i do remember having about four wood chisels, three pry bars, a hammer and cedar shims around to get it open. i think the spring washer is a non-issue. it just takes some brute force to get that bearing out of its press fit seat. it's hard because normally you could "de-seat" a bearing with a hammer and punch, but in this case you don't have access to the side of the bearing to get a hammer in there, so prying hard is the only way.
the thing is built with very rugged parts, so as long as you don't nick/short a coil, you should be just fine.
i remember putting it back together. i used the four big bolts and tightened them evenly. the rear bearing would pop a little here and there as i tightened the bolts. once the bolts were fully tight i had to use a piece of just the right size pipe to tap the rear bearing to where it wanted to be. my memory says using the bolts over pushed the bearing, and the pipe brought it back some so it sat in the right spot.
adam
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Birdhouse,
Thanks for the patience and good advice as I follow steps in getting this motor on a tower. I will try documenting as well as I can so that future Servo users can attack this process more confidently. I will say that looking on line (any other place than these forums) for any help is / has been fruitless so far. For us Noob's it's nice to have people with that real experience to ask specific questions during a project.
Bill
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Birdhouse and all,
I've succeeded in separating the case/s and removed the brake assembly, leaving the "coil" in it's recessed spot. Out of over enthusiasm I put the back cover back together and temporarily screwed the cases together again, (It went together without any resistance) but the rear plate that holds the bearing in place popped right out the back side of the rear cover. I intend to take it apart again to take some pix's and ensure all wires are not going to get pinched, etc. I now understand Birdhouse's statement about "tapping the bearing back in place." I will have to do that during final assembly too.
The front case kept the armature in place very nicely during the process and while cases were apart, so no worries about losing any magnetism--- I hope!!
That's all I have for now but will try and show some pix's and relate how I went about splitting the cases further if anyone is interested. In short, It went just as Birdhouse explained.
Going to watch the Superbowl now-- Go Giants !
Bill
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AGAIN, I am not saying do as I did, just saying what I observed in my little world.
It was power output. IIRC, it was across the board output.
Young Mr Fungus is a smart little cookie, and honest, and I would not 2nd guess his findings.
Just saying I personally trust him 111%.
A 'keeper' contains BOTH poles of the field.
Magnets on a motor's rotor do not when they are removed from the stator (the laminated stator acts as the keeper).
G-
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97 fishmt, Birdhouse and all,
Well since last session, I've cut the unnecessary tachometer/ brake wires and put the motor back together and it works!! LOL
Like birdhouse described, it was necessary to "tap" the bearing back into position, no real problem. If your not familiar with the last statement, the rear bearing stays attached to the rear aluminum housing plate when the case is split apart enough to access and remove the brake assy. What you have when the motor is apart is that the front case half and armature is held in place along with the stator. The brake assy is screwed (Tight!!) to the rear housing over the coil! I had to use vise grips to break the Phillips screws loose then remove the (3) pieces of the actual brake parts. Don't for get to pull all the springs and spacers and put them aside. After that, I made sure the three 3 phase wires were placed back where I saw them on disassembly and cut the rest off close to the signal control socket.
Reassembly was straight forward. I put the black colored back half of the case, up against the front and put the (4) recessed screws in and tightened them somewhat. then went round the back and (following Birdhouses advice) used a socket and tapped the bearing back in enough to reseat the aluminum back plate that holds the rear bearing to the armature. You'll know when the bearing is seated because it will have a distinct metal upon metal sound when tapping and the aluminum plate will be reseated and back in place simultaneously. I Know that 2 of the 3 phases are working! My friend came in and said he would operate the 18V drill, as I was setting up the meter and putting the alligator clips attached to the meter, in place !!
Some where in this scientific process, he said I nodded and he pulled the trigger and------ I almost wet myself and was making ugly sounds !!! I finally got my cigarette lit, by clamping the lighter in the vice!!!! SHOOT!!
Have no idea what the RPMs were, but later on with the same set up, it slammed the peg pinning the meter hard on the 30 Volt Scale!! I think this motor will definitely charge batteries-- with no problem!!
enough for now,
Bill
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nice work bill!
do you have rectfiers?
the next step i took was to hook the three wires up to a rectifier. then you can measure DC volts coming out. then i bough a cheapie bicycle speedo. taped the magnet to the motor shaft. with some math and head scratching, one can turn MPH into RPM... so long as you know the wheel diameter the speedo is calibrated to.
then you can get a 12v cut in rpm.
next, i started bench testing with an actual battery with an ammeter. then you can get amps (thus watts) at various rpms. just be warned, it's AMAZING for a first timer to witness how much torque the motor will push back at you when even generating 200 watts!
you're on the right track!!
adam
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Adam,
I've got (3) bridge rectifiers somewhere in the mail. I will be doing the testing steps you described next too.
I have to find a machinist to fabricate an adapter to fit the tapered shaft on the motor and the taper from the hub for the "Powermax" blades I bought for the project. I'll have to start a new post For this Fanuc motor as I progress. I'm not even sure anyone would be interested from here on out. We'll see.
Again, I thank you for your help. By the way, keep posting some updates of your own.
Bill
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Post and they will come. ;)
I would most certainly be interested in seeing your progress.
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Nicely done Bill! I too, will be watching with interest.
next, i started bench testing with an actual battery with an ammeter. then you can get amps (thus watts) at various rpms. just be warned, it's AMAZING for a first timer to witness how much torque the motor will push back at you when even generating 200 watts!
;D Very true.
one hand holding a 30# servo and one running a drill. Needless to say I was NOT ready. I decided to clamp the servo to the work bench.
Bill, If you didn't know already, you can set one of those bicycle speedos to a circumference of 167 and the read out to km/h. You then multiply the results by 10 and this is your rpm.
Kevin
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Post and they will come. ;)
I would most certainly be interested in seeing your progress.
Count me in, too!
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Again, I thank you for your help. By the way, keep posting some updates of your own.
Bill
i've thought about reposting my turbine story here in another thread. seems others are doing similar "old" repostings to get some good content on this site. i've been absolutely slammed with work, but i think the next posts you'll see of my "stuff" will be the "jerry" 4' mill on a dinky 20' tower, and my passive solar tracker that uses a hydraulic cylinder and pressure from R-134a to track the sun. i've been SLOWLY... working on that one.
one hand holding a 30# servo and one running a drill. Needless to say I was NOT ready. I decided to clamp the servo to the work bench.
Bill, If you didn't know already, you can set one of those bicycle speedos to a circumference of 167 and the read out to km/h. You then multiply the results by 10 and this is your rpm.
i don't know about bills servo, but mine weighed in at a whopping 65lbs. i had trouble finding a big enough drill to get more than 240 watts out of it. the motor fought back with so much torque, that even my BIG boy hammer drill would slip its clutch past 10 amps (@24v).
good info on the easy conversion with the speedo!!
adam
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I'd love to see that hydraulic cylinder /R134 tracker. That sounds like a great way to do it. I was hoping to add a bit of solar here, but recent unexpected damaged things here may have taken the set away funds. Any which way it would be nice to get a plan in place.
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I recall (but not too clearly) that there's been discussion (I THINK it was at Otherpower) about the importance of matching impedance of the servo and the load. I know that with one of my servo motors much more force (torque) is required to light an automotive lamp (brake light?) than a standard 100w 120vac light.
Many years ago, Zubbly suggested "to me" trying hooking up a power transformer to the servo, for the purpose of better matching impedance's. I have a couple of 240/440 to 120 (step DOWN) transformers. I recall that I hooked them up BACKWARDS using them as step UP transformers, and noticed a improvement in torque in verses "apparent" power out.
Yes, it is obvious that hooking a transformer between the generator (servo motor) and it's load will DECREASE it's overall Efficiency (lost as heat in the transformer) but overall may increase "system" efficiency by matching drive (whether props/lathe/hand held drill) to servo to load.
I'm posting this in hopes OTHERS will chime in with more actual hands on experience, as ALL mine is based on OLD memories and only HAND CRANKING my servo. One should have measurable (valid) data to determine if matching impedance's (servo to load) with a transformer is practical. Since this idea came from Zubbly it's "my" opinion it's worth pursuing.
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m12ax7,
I've been thinking about your post and what amount of torque would be required by the rotor that's developed by the generator trying to supply power to the load. Your right, it can be substantial transmitted to the rotor shaft!
Just thinking, that a load varies the required torque from very high (sometimes an effect almost close to a short) to low as batteries go from a very deep discharge to full charge. Would the " Xformer power dissipation" vary or stay consistent over the power band?
To that, the speed of the wind also limits what torque is potentially available. In my area (Panhandle of Florida), the extra power just may not be there to overcome what's needed at the time, without powerful low speed blades and maybe a transmission to bring the generator into its real power regime.
Chris Olsen has lately been using a combination of a higher stator voltages and a MPPT controller and coming up with pretty impressive wattage from a 3.2M prop! Lots to think about for the medium wind speed band.
Bill
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To all,
Has anyone else had experience with removing Servo brakes (beside Adam), especially other brands other than Fanuc?
I intend to add some pix's to illustrate what I've documented so far on my Fanuc Servo project.
I hope some others will share their experiences here too.
Bill
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Hello..
Though I really DON'T want to admit it, I did "defeat" the brake on the Kollmorgen servo I have. I say "defeated" because I did not remove it from the rotor. I'll point out that when I rescued it from the junk barrel the rotor had already been removed from the stator. The brake is pressed on, and I did not have the equipment nor access to it, So I did what most everyone would call a "hack job" on it. The face of the brake is (when assembled) bolted to the front end bell, so all I did was to cut the wires to the brake coil and used a ......yes I'll say it... a angle GRINDER and ground down the surface of the brake. When I reinstalled the rotor I just plugged the holes that were used to bolt the brake assembly.
Now when you spin the shaft, the brake (inside, still pressed on the rotor) spins with the shaft. I don't believe it adds any extra resistance (torque) to spin the shaft.
IT WASN'T PRETTY! but the fact is, it worked fine.
I did wrap the rotor/magnets with painters tape to keep it free of grinding dust.
Here (if this works) is a side view of the rotor with the brake on the left side (front of rotor) and the face I ground down is facing the output shaft (perpendicular to camera view).
http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4822/Kollmorgen_rotor_1422.jpg
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m12ax7,
Boy, I think taking the brake off that Servo (if it were togetherwhen you started), would have been much harder than the Fanuc. I would in retrospect recommend A Fanuc vice Kollmorgan.
Removing the brake on mine was much easier (rotor stayed in place on the front shell), and didn't have to worry about losing any magnetizing ability and therefore possibly ruining a potential "good generator."
Glad It worked out. Thanks for contributing.
Bill
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12ax7-
nothing wrong with cutting bits out with a grinder. if it worked/negates the brake, it was a success! i personally love the brute cutting force of a 4" angle grinder with a 5" cut off wheel on it!
bill-
when you gonna get us photo's of the servo surgery?
adam
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bvan1941
If there would have been a Fanuc laying in the junk barrel, I'd have that here too. But like cards... sometimes you just have to do with what you're dealt!
As I said before, this servo, when shorting any two or all three of the power leads GREATLY increases the 'back' torque (turning rotor by hand), with all three leads shorted you can hardly turn the shaft. I can NOT imagine what torque would be needed if the neo magnets were any stronger than they are now. I have a matched pair of smaller Allen Bradly servos, one I've had the rotor out (for at least two days) and the other has never been taken apart. Shorting the leads of either motor gives the SAME amount of back torque, the only way you/I can tell which one has been taken apart is the scribe marks I put on the stator/end bells.
Again, I know that removing rotors of servo motors is suppose to ruin/weaken the magnets, just that "I'VE" never seen it to be true. Also, I have NEVER worked/seen a Fanuc so maybe there's something very different about them.
I'd like to mention that the magnets on the rotor are pretty small. I'd guess (it's been a two years since I've had it apart) the magnets are about 3/16 X 5/16 X 5/8. Of course, there's lots of them. *L*
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m12ax7 and Birhouse,
m12ax7-- I too tried shorting just two leads and could hardly turn the rotor by hand, I can imagine shorting all # leads!
About your Servos,I meant that the Fanuc wasn't hard to remove the break assy. It was screwed to a mount on the back end of the case. On yours, It just seemed to be more difficult to do. Your Servo is as good if not better than the Fanucs -- If brand name and reputation has any meaning. Sorry if I cast any negative connotation on kollmorgan Servos. Did you get the output you expected ?
Birdhouse-- My motor hasn't got back from the machine shop yet. The boss asked me to leave it with him until he can show his machinist what this can do as a generator. His thought is to hook one like this to an engine and make a mobile generator for his truck working in the field! Now there's people looking to use Servos here in "redneck City" "It's all your fault" LOL. He even asked me for this Forum website!!
I'm getting my camera ready--hopefully this week to post some pixs.
Bill
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To all,
Trying to document my FANUC - A06 brake removal process with some followup pix's as promised. If these pix's aren't good/ big enough please advise and I will redo them. Please look at "Birdhouse's" picture (on an earlier page here) showing the Servo split apart, It will fill in the gap in my explanation. I'll try and explain my pix's in order :
1- First pix is just to show approx size of the Servo and blade/s I'm going to try with this Servo. The 9.2' Rotor is an S-809 Foil.
2- The side view is trying to show where I split the case apart, Should show up as a silver line on side of servo not quite halfway back from front edge of case.
3- The backcover is to show how I cut the (2) brake control wires, off along with a "dozen" other control wires on the top of the back cover.
4- This pix shows how the (3) brake parts look as they sit screwed over a magnet coil in the back half of the case after splitting the two halves apart. What is not shown here is approximately (6) little springs and spacers used to push this whole assy. forward engaging a gear as part on the armature shaft (located on the front half of the case). This is what "locks up" the servo when no power is applied to the (2) wires on magnet coil, going to the tiny socket on the red backcover. When this Servo is used normally in an industrial setting , power is applied to the brake's magnet coil retracting this assy. back from the metal gear on the armature and the motor spins freely in either direction!
5/6- A pix of the (3) parts making up the "brake assy." and The dark fiber center piece with matching gear shape and (2) metal plates that are attracted by the manetic actuated coil mounted in the back half of the case.
7- This is the round aluminum "plate" holding the rear bearing that centers the armature shaft, and the tachometer assembly. It also seals the back end of the motor from the elements. It is held in place with hex head screws ( not necessary to be removed for this process). The (2) yellow brake wires from the magnetic coil) are taped for now(could be cut off) .
8- The red back cover is shown lying on its back, but is screwed to the "back plate" and is removed first to DETACH THE TACH ASSEMBLY BEFORE SPLITTING THE CASES APART!! Remove the (3) screws holding this tachometer assy. to the plate and armature shaft.
Gents, this is my first attempt at multiple pix posting along with an explanation of my project. Hope it helps someone. I'll try and answer any other questions requested.
Bill
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PS: I KNOW---- I KNOW The pix's are from "down under"
LOL
Bill
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Hey Bill....
That servo brake in the pix looks just like the ones I took out of my Omron-600w servo (in the picture below).
I really like that thing sitting up there on my 25' tower making power for me (when the wind blows here....not real often).
Finally got to see it "start" to furl a couple days ago, during one hell of wind through here. It was quite a show for me.
Thrill of a life time, eh?
Keep up the good work and keep posting your progress as its still very interesting for us, too! You're getting closer every day, Bud!
Bill
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Thanks Bill, I read and enjoyed your project very much!
I hope some of the guys deciding to try a servo will find this a help. I know Adam's (Birdhouse) split Servo pix helped (backed up with his encouragement to keep at it) and gave me a little more comfort doing something like that for the first time. Your Omron Servo,
Mike (97 fishmt) said he has used them, I think. Believe he's happy with their performance too!
By by the way, notice you using PVC blades. Have you been happy with their performance? Nice hub too! Like that you painted yours, it should help the UV problem. I made some for my 1st. project 2.5 years ago and still running. Will inspect and let you know the results later on. Going to use a 9.2' rotor on this Fanuc motor.
People here thinks me "strange" but, interesting with my hobby.
Bill
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By by the way, notice you using PVC blades. Have you been happy with their performance? Nice hub too! Like that you painted yours, it should help the UV problem. I made some for my 1st. project 2.5 years ago and still running. Will inspect and let you know the results later on. Going to use a 9.2' rotor on this Fanuc motor.
People here thinks me "strange" but, interesting with my hobby.
Bill
Bill...
Yup, love the PVC blades I got on there. They're 37" each, and I want to chop em down a couple inches for a bit more speed (more power).
I like to use PVC first, and figure out what size seems to run best here in my area with my winds and gennys, then, plan on carving (chainsaw) some wooden ones
for the permanent mount. PVC is so easy to work with and fast to get me into the ball park on what works with whatever it is mounted to.
Yea, that's a real hum-dinger for a hub, eh? That too, is just for the PVC blades temporarily. I use 2- 7 1/4" (Cheap!) saw blades from the Tool Shed here in town.
They set me back a whole $2.00 each. Woo-whoooo!!
I plan on using 1/4" flat steel hubs once I find what works good. I know the feeling about people thinking you strange and such. But, when the power grid goes down
here, I just flip a couple switches, and continue on with normal lifestyle, while they all do without until they get out their gas generators and fire em up!! I keep my
gas generator in reserve until the solar panels no longer put out.
Well, Bill, keep on keepin on....you're doin good!!
Bill
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Bill,
I initially made my blades like yours and was constantly making blades because of "flexing" and to adjust rpms for less than desirable winds here. What I did to improve speed was come off the hub with flat bar steel arm about half the radius and mount blades along that arm using a wide spacing to attach the pvc blades. I used 4" pvc I had for this experiment. This significantly reduced the "flexing" of the pvc in strong winds and destroying the blades from pole strikes due to blade flex. So when you look at my rotor, it looks like only the outer half of the rotor has blades.
(It's based on theory that the inner half of blade does little work) It seems to be true for me. They seem to start around 4-5 mph(guess) and speed up quickly! Highest winds estimated-- 35-40 mph. By the way the blades are silent.
Bill
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Bill,
I initially made my blades like yours and was constantly making blades because of "flexing" and to adjust rpms for less than desirable winds here. What I did to improve speed was come off the hub with flat bar steel arm about half the radius and mount blades along that arm using a wide spacing to attach the pvc blades. I used 4" pvc I had for this experiment. This significantly reduced the "flexing" of the pvc in strong winds and destroying the blades from pole strikes due to blade flex. So when you look at my rotor, it looks like only the outer half of the rotor has blades.
(It's based on theory that the inner half of blade does little work) It seems to be true for me. They seem to start around 4-5 mph(guess) and speed up quickly! Highest winds estimated-- 35-40 mph. By the way the blades are silent.
Bill
Hey Bill.....
Must be sorta dumb here....can't picture in my mind what you're doing? Are you keeping your normal hub and attaching flat stock to it (expanding the radius) and then
mounting your PVC blades to it? Wouldn't happen to have a picture of it, would ya? Mine are nice and noisy when they start hitting the 3-6 amp mark. When I hear em
starting to roar, I high tail it out to the workshop to see what the ammeter is showing (that's how I get me exercise at this age!!). ;D Appreciate the info, Bill.
Bill
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Bill,
You have it exactly correct, I used the original hub on the treadmill motor and used flat bar steel about halfway out and then bolted the pvc blades to the flatbar on the "inside" part of the blades. They are very quiet and at speed, one has to "listen" to distinguish between wind noise and turbine sounds. Yes I'll try taking a picture of my first W/T still running. Looks crude but used what I had at the time to test out what I wanted to do.
Bill
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Bill, borrowed my wifes Ipad, ran out in rain and snapped a couple of pixs to give you some idea of what our discussion is about. Not the best pixs during this rain, hope you can see OK, if not I'll take some better one when rain stops.
My tower is only 31' at the hub.
Bill
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Bill;
Are there guys anchored in the water? How does that work?
Tom
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Bill,
You have it exactly correct, I used the original hub on the treadmill motor and used flat bar steel about halfway out and then bolted the pvc blades to the flatbar on the "inside" part of the blades. They are very quiet and at speed, one has to "listen" to distinguish between wind noise and turbine sounds. Yes I'll try taking a picture of my first W/T still running. Looks crude but used what I had at the time to test out what I wanted to do.
Bill
Boy, you're quick, Bill
I blew up the first photo enough so I could see what's up. Gotcha now, understand what you're saying. Might give that a try on the smaller servo soon.
What a nice "back yard" you have and I noticed you didn't waste any room for your tower mount, either....Way cool, Bill. I like the way you have your tower mounted.
Do you get any shaking down at the bottom of the mount? I'm shooting a picture of the tower I made. I really love it......takes about 2 minutes to lower it all by myself,
just using a 1200 lb boat winch, and no guy wires (yet). Seems extremely stable without them, still. Even in the super heavy winds the other day.
Thanks for the info and pictures and hollar if I can help ya with anything, okay?
Bill
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Tom and Bill,
Tomw--The guy wire placements are temporary and not anchored in water but to the posts (front two away from camera). Second two, one tied off to right hand post of the platform holding woodpile. The close left side is tied off to a telephone pole on the corner of the cabin (just out of picture to the left).
Right after the project went up, I contracted Cancer and am just getting back on my feet. I will redistribute the guy wires more equal in geometry and use turnbuckles for adjustment. This will serve as a"test" tower. Winds are predominately from NNW (5-10 degrees to left looking at WT).
Bill---After 2 years I've noticed some minor shaking at some low wind speeds. Must be some rotor inbalance, maybe from pvc blades not tracking exactly? Believe the sun has worked it's magic on the unprotected pvc. It's why I applauded you painting your blades. I was going to use your tilt upstyle system, but the leverage potential wasn't working for me.
The tower made from scrap and welded by me, is heavy walled pipe and has been very stable.
Thanks for the good words and look forward to your next project, I've enjoyed your present creation very much.
Bill
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Tried to post my project of "removing brakes" on a YASKAWA Servo, with pictures---- They went to the "ERROR BIN"- I guess!
I'll try again.
Bought a Yaskawa servo with brake and tachometer attached. After taking off the rear Tach housing, then the tach, I Tried 2.5 days more, trying to use the "noodle," to split the brake and stator cases, to no avail!
I could scarcely get a 1/64th of an inch separation of the cases. Unlike the Fanuc process, It felt like I was missing a bolt or bolts holding the cases together.
Then, my bride came in, heard my woes and said these words of wisdom "Why don't you call the people you bought it from, either they know how or will know who to have you talk to." SOOO I DID! In (5) Min's. I had the "secret" I'll share with you!
Yaskawa applies COMMERCIAL GRADE LOCKTITE all around the outside of the bearing and in the race on the housing !!
The answer to removal is, use a heat gun to heat the bearing shaft area and the aluminum housing for 5-8 Min's. until it's almost too hot to touch!
This softens the Locktite and the housing pops off the bearing (with some words and work) which STAYS attached to the armature!!
Hint: use two people! One to keep heat on while the other splits the case apart. ( this stuff is really, really tough to work with, if not continuously heated) Be fairly easy on the aluminum housings! One has to use thin blades at first to gain some small case separation, then some judicious use of BIG SCREWDRIVERS and some wooden blocks to widen the case separation. Unlike the Fanuc there are few stators coils or wires to be aware of and are visible as you gain progress. I will try poisting some more pictures now, hope it works this time! I have more pixs-- If there's more questions or interest.
Bill
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You don't always have to buy one with a brake. ;D
Maybe try to make one with a brake work. The brakes
only take a couple watts. You never know you might
be disabling one and then want to put it back on.
I have a very large motor that I haven't gotten around to
that I actually plan to use the brake on it.
Keep us posted Bill. It's great to see new stuff going on.
Mike
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Mike,
Good to see your back on again. Yes, I can buy them without brakes and I did give some thought to utilizing the internal brakes for "parking" should it be necessary. If you do incorporate the internal brakes, Let us all know how it works for you.
I am working on finding some strong tower pipe to put on the first direct drive project (with Fanuc Servo).
I know some people don't know what the inside of a Servo looks like, so I am trying to contribute some firsthand knowledge and experience by documenting with pictures like you and Adam have done in the past. I was surprised to find the magnets on this Yaskawa have rounded stator cores. Believe this is meant to minimize cogging.
By the way that brake assy in the Yaskawa weighs about 10-12 lbs. nearly fell on my foot when it popped off the bearing!!
I'll try to keep posting progress on my projects as I go along.
Bill
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Gents,
Don't want to "hog" this section but I wanted to say in my discussion with the Servo service Tech, I asked him if I pulled out the armature would I destroy anything including the magnetization. He said absolutely not, he takes them out everyday and they don't lose any power or loss of manetization in the process!
This question was for my benefit but, I know the question was being discussed on this Forum and others. Thought It would be another contribution from a Service Technician that repairs Servos for a living.
Bill
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Do you mean arched magnets?
They are actually skewed to eliminate cogging.
Go ahead and pull the armature out and take a look at it.
It wont demagnetize, I can't believe that myth still
floats around. ::)
I took a motor apart today also just to shed some weight.
Just the encoder, but yes it does add up.
The motor I was referring to is a large brushed motor.
So I wouldn't be able to stop it by shorting the wires
together. I've had it for around 15 years and it just
sits in the basement. 100 volts @ 1000 rpm and 180 amps
It was before I caught on to ac servo motors. :)
Mike
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Mike,
No the magnets are rounded to fit the arc of the rotor. I was talking about the stator cores (like the modified stator cores that use the F&P motors). I'll see if I have a close up of this motor showing the magnets and stator cores. Try and see if this pix shows enough detail to illustrate what I'm trying to say.
Bill
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Mike , my mistake your right !!!
Bill
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ahh... you had me thinking and trying to make something out of your photo.
I know there are many overlapping coils that make up the three phase winding,
I thought that's what you were getting at.
Keep up the good work Bill,
I love it! :)
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"he takes them out everyday and they don't lose any power or loss of manetization"
Wondering if it has to do with the age of the motor?
New motors with neo would not lose power.
Maybe the old motors have far inferiour magnet material?
I do not know how old the ones I took appart were (other than 'very old'), but the magnets in them were lame at best.
G-
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ghurd,
I can't contribute any observation other than what I've documented here. I trust what the service technician said and Mike's 20 yr. experience with servos. Is there a chance you had come across a servo that had been abused in some way, thereby giving the impression of loss of power as a result of being taken apart ? Have you made any W/T's built with a servo?
I'm gaining enthusiasm for these units and the power they can potentially provide. They certainly are ruggedly constructed!
You always provide good advice and patience. Glad to see your part of this Forum!
Bill
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I had a few (very) old servos that were pretty much un-good after I tinkered with them.
1 or 2 were useless. Seems like 1 that had good prospects before tinkering were useless afterwards.
And yes, Abused!
I 'won' a servo on ebay... from a seller who's items were all returnable, except the servo motor I 'won'.
All the screw heads were severely messed up, anti-tamper sticker seal was broken, etc.
The coils were fine. In fact, everything but the screw heads looked brand new.
It didn't make enough of anything to charge a AAAA nicad in a hurricane.
"Fungus" had 101% reliable numbers about his servo(s) and the loss in V/RPM and output into a battery after the , but he is out there finding himself. Darn kids nowadays are like they were back in the '60s! LOL
I still have a servo motor or 3 around with brakes, but was never confident about getting the things apart so they would still work afterwards.
"Have you made any W/T's built with a servo?"
In the context I expect it was intended, no. I managed to ruin any servo motor of a suitable size I could try, by taking it apart.
BUT I do intend to try to get the brakes off at least one I have, then give it a try. I pretty much gave up on the ones I have with brakes attached due to the failures I had.
It must have something to do with size? (and age) The bigger "servo" motors you guys are using must have better magnets. The largest I ever removed the rotor from was maybe 3.3 or 4" dia class? Maybe 5 or 7" long?
Not the monsters you guys are talking about.
This post has me ready to rip off the back of those buggers I didn't screw up yet!
G-
Just for clairity, because I know this is going to come up in searches for the next 20 years...
"Servo" motor can be taken may ways, and they can be very different.
An Ametek or Indiana is a servo motor.
A stepper motor (ie: from a junk printer) is a servo motor.
A typical muffin fan has a servo motor.
Most $$$ Kollmorgen units are servos.
A GE ECM is a servo motor, as is the F&P, LG, Ect.
A Zubbly conversion is a servo motor (not very unlike some of the early GE ECMs).
A HughP PMA is a servo motor (not unlike some Kollmorgens).
And the type you guys have is a servo motor too.
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ghurd,
As usual you give lots of background as basis for logical answers! I really hope you WILL experiment with servos. I will reiterate what advice I've gotten from Mike and Adam. "Choose a servo that has the lowest rpm's, higher voltages, and suitable amperage to achieve the basic requirements for W/T parameters and load applications." ( I'm sure they didn't use those words), but It's what I took away from their discussions on this subject in Forum posts.
It appears that the servos data plate is confusing to some people when it comes to estimating current levels. I think most people are mistaking the amperage listed as the combined output from all (3) phases. Both Mike and Adam have been advising that is not the case! They've even said in some posts that that truer estimates are more like 2.5-3 times that rating. I believe them and will post both my (calculated) estimates and recorded actual results with my projects as I complete them.
"Monster" -- Powerwise, I think I've seen some of the 1000-1500w servos advertised w/o brakes and encoders attached, are only < 15-20lbs. according to advertised shipping weights and would operate around 2k rpm's. or less. Believe both Mike and Adam have made very good W/T's Initially, in this range.
Soo go ahead and "jump in." Would bet your observations would bring even more clarity and interest in their use!
Bill