Anotherpower.com Forum
Renewable Energy Questions/Discussion => Wind and Hydro => Topic started by: ksouers on May 14, 2012, 08:31:51 pm
-
A friend dropped by the house today after work. He brought a gift.
(http://i356.photobucket.com/albums/oo7/ksouers/yaskawa.jpg)
He said this had been sitting around the shop for about 10 years just taking up space. He first told me about it back in February or March but didn't have any details on it so I said “Yeah, I'll take it”. Figured they were just going to trash it and I can throw it away if it's not usable.
Here's the specs on it:
Model#: SGMG-09A2ABC
850w
5.39Nm
7.1 A
1500 RPM
It's not great, but it certainly doesn't look bad to me. The brake is locked up, so I have to get that removed. If anybody knows anything about this motor or has an opinion, please speak up.
I've been re-reading bvan's thread about his Fanuc motor to get some insight into removing the brake.
http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,214.0.html
Kevin
-
I'm not an expert on these motors but the 7.1 amps and 1500 rpms don't look good to to me.
-
kevin-
i'm not familiar with yaskawa's, but i'd be willing to bet the brake is in the chamber between the two plugs. hopefully you don't have to un-seat a bearing to get to it, but many times that is the case.
just off the top of my head guessing (and you'll know more once you bench it) i bet a 5-6' blade set would give you 300w in 20mph winds??? again, super guess. not a bad motor though! especially for free!
adam
-
Hey kevin
That looks like a really good motor you've got there. What's the voltage on that thing? Might be able to get 15vdc (once rectified) @ around 100rpm in
a decent wind. Brake shouldn't be a big deal to get off there. Some even use them for braking up on the tower. Been watching flea-bay for these types
of motors, and one just pops up on your doorstep :o....LOL.....Have fun with it, bro...
Bill
-
http://www.yaskawa.com/site/dmservo.nsf/%28DocID%29/TKUR-69MTMD/$File/SGMGServoSpecs.pdf (http://www.yaskawa.com/site/dmservo.nsf/%28DocID%29/TKUR-69MTMD/$File/SGMGServoSpecs.pdf)
[attach=1]
Power input at 200 Volts. Nice find.
http://www.yaskawa.com/site/Support.nsf/DMSD_Results?OpenForm&DMSDd=DMServo.nsf&DMSDq=Servo%20Products-SGMG (http://www.yaskawa.com/site/Support.nsf/DMSD_Results?OpenForm&DMSDd=DMServo.nsf&DMSDq=Servo%20Products-SGMG)
-
Thanks guys.
Dale: No, the numbers aren't great, but I do think it will be workable. It would be nice if the amps or the watts were a little higher, but hey, I can't complain. The price was perfect. All the servo motors I've seen have been 1500 RPM or higher. I don't think any are rated any slower. Bvan seemed to indicate in his thread that the amp rating might be per phase, not overall. So the overall output could be higher. Don't know. I'll find out when I start playing with it.
Adam: You are right. The brake is in the middle chamber. I think I'll see how much power it takes to release the brake before removing it. I've almost got the encoder off, just one screw holding up the works (naturally ). The wind here hides out in Canada during the summer, it's non-existent except during storms. But come fall and winter it can howl like a Banshee. I probably won't get any real-world numbers out of it until about late September or maybe October.
Bill: Just using the numbers off the data plate it's 120 volts. I haven't seen any indication of what the volts are yet, but looking at some pictures of other motors it may be printed somewhere inside. We'll see. I'm not going to get my hopes up too high about the output. I'm sure it'll be much better than the little dinky things with which I've been experimenting.
Dan: Thanks for the links. Especially decoding the model number. That gives quite a bit more usable info than the data plate.
Free is good :)
Kevin
-
Wow! That was easy!
Got the encoder and brake removed. All done in about an hour. It was much easier than I thought it would be.
Splitting the case was hardest, but only because it was the most time consuming. It really wasn't difficult.
I couldn't get the brake coil out, I guess it was a real tight fit. There are 3 bolts in the cover to hold it in place, I expected it to just drop out but it didn't. So, I removed the friction plate and actuator plate but left the coil in place. I can put everything back at a later date if I decide I need it.
If you want to see the innards bvan posted some pictures of a Yaskawa that he took apart. Mine looks identical.
http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,214.msg2666.html#msg2666
The rotor turns freely by hand, but it's not really easy. There is some friction from the bearings and of course the mass of the rotor. Hard to explain. There's no flywheel effect so it stops pretty quickly, but it's not hard to turn and there's no cogging except when the outputs are shorted. Then it's almost impossible to turn.
I quickly got out some clip leads, a small rectifier and VOM. I had to play :) Got 6 volts just twisting it by hand and 0.8 amps. Yeah, I'm gonna like this :) But it's going to take some fairly hefty blades to turn it.
I'll have a bigger rectifier assembled tonight and start some testing with a drill. This is gonna be fun!
Kevin
-
Cool!
" Yeah, I'm gonna like this But it's going to take some fairly hefty blades to turn it." Withough knowing exactly how har it is to turn, I'd still say good find.
My first step would be to get the unit into position so that you can test with some aux driver .. drill, whatever.. into bats.
I also think adding some mass to the hub may help you somewhat. Never know until you actually attach a blade hub, 3 or 4 lbs of blades (total) makes a big difference,. Really hard to tell how it will spin when just hand turning. I have a 2HP Baldor DC motor that spins nicely with a small 5' dia blade set, yet by hand is not the easiest to spin (and that has brush drag).
Fun project !
Rover
-
Kevin;
It is hard to put a value on FUN! The learning and generated electron flow are side effects.
Many of us started with machines from the scrap bin that were not "ideal" they are just steps on the path.
Most importantly have some fun with it.
Tom
-
Thanks Tom and Rover.
Got some testing in. I didn't assemble the bigger rectifier like I thought I would, so I just used my little one with 1 amp diodes. Didn't burn anything up :) I hooked up a little battery powered drill and gave it a spin. The little drill would spin it to 475 RPM with all the guts it had, that was putting out 32.5 volts. Much better than I expected though a little high on the revs. Slowing down to ~200 RPM got 13.5 volts. Tried measuring amperage but the drill would cut out as soon as it reached 3 amps. Tried sneaking up on it but still cut out at 3. Also tried spinning it both directions, counter-clockwise proved to have slightly more power by about 2 volts. Could just be the RPMs, though. I didn't tach the clockwise rotation.
Now I need to build a new tower. There's no way my little test tower will handle this 20 pound monster. Because of where I would have to locate the tower I'm limited to about 25 feet, the fall zone has to stay on my property. Any place else and I run into trees or just get closer to the neighbors, thus reducing the height. I think 4 inch sched 40 PVC would work. Feel free to blow this one out of the water. I'd rather do steel pipe but have no welding equipment. Can wire welders be rented?
Blades. Store-bought or scratch? I'd almost rather go store-bought for the convenience but I don't think I can get them small enough, except the crappy sheet aluminum ones from Windy Nation. Carving out of wood doesn't appeal to me, I'm not a wood worker. But if I have to I will.
Kevin
-
Kevin;
For testing purposes you do not need brawny diodes / rectifier. They are actually more likely to pop if you run the volts too high into them testing than from too much current.
Simple voltage testing will not push any current through them unless you load it at the same time.
Tom
-
Did a little more playing this afternoon, hooked it up to the bank with an ammeter.
The bank had been topped off by the solar panels since about 2:00, it was floating at 13.3 volts.
Powered by the battery drill the Yaskawa was putting 0.5 amps in at about 225 RPM (according to the tach). A whole 6 watts.
Definitely going to need some big wind and a fast set of blades to get some power out of it. Or maybe pull a Chris Olson and gear it up :)
Kevin
-
Are you testing it in IRP/Jerry or Star/Wye?
You can get more voltage per RPM in Star/Wye, at the expense of greater resistance.
That drag sounds more like minor eddy currents somewhere. In the laminations, maybe in the brake, etc?
If you can, get all the extra crap out, like the coils in the brake.
G-
-
Hi G,
It still wired how it came from the factory, star/wye. 3 of the 7 terminals on the connector. 2 are for the brake, I guess the other 2 are unused.
I didn't pull the coils so I don't know for certain how it's wired. The coils weren't visible from the open end of the case, but I could see it had hemispherical magnets.
The drag feels more like a minor misalignment or pressure on the bearings. Perhaps from the glue that held the rear bearing in. There aren't any "sticky spots" like you might expect from a damaged or worn bearing, just an overall drag on the shaft. I'm going to split the case again to have another look, maybe scrape off the bits of old glue. I'll take another whack at getting the brake coil out, too.
The drag changes depending on how tight the case bolts are torqued down. The tighter the bolts the more resistance to motion that makes me think it's some kind of misalignment. There is a barely discernible cogging when turning slowly by hand. Easy to miss unless you are looking for it. Spin it too quickly and you'll never notice it.
Kevin
-
I split the case again, got the brake coil out this time. Yes, it was a tight friction fit. I left the bolts in slightly proud of the case and smacked them with a dead-blow. The coil surrendered and popped out.
I then cleaned up the glue from the bearing and cavity. It was actually kind of rubbery, not hard and crystaline like CA or Locktite. I was able to rub it off with a paper towel.
Yes, there was some improvement. Not great, but better. I think it's as good as it's going to get. Spinning the bearing while it was out of the case proved there is drag in the bearings. Both the front and rear bearing spin freely without any roughness. The best way I can describe it is like a rubber seal that is pressing against the shaft. Anyway, reseating the bearing did offer some improvement. I don't know how much removing the coil contributed, if any. It certainly shaved a couple pounds off the weight.
Kevin
-
Ksouers,
Glad to see you are having fun! Have you made any more progress? You might try a set of "POWERMAX" blades, they are fast, good quality and pretty inexpensive ($117 for 9' blades with hub and spinner). Look at Chris Olsen's comments about these blades.
On the subject of possible friction after removing the brake assy. I had a little friction more than I thought was normal too. I tapped the shaft with a plastic faced mallet to nuetralize what I thought was excessive pressure caused by the "press fit" between the bearing and the bearing race after assembly. It did make some difference. My suggestion may or may not apply in your case but it's worth a try.
Some good advice given me by both Mike and Adam (Servo W/T experts in my opinion) is consider Servo specs that have: low rpm's, higher voltages and wattage ratings. higher voltage and low rpm's will give you more power at lower rpm's associated with wind speeds between 8-25 mph. You must be able to get the voltage at the lowest rpm's possible for good W/T performance.
I'm not an expert but I believe the Servo's will do very well with someone trying to have good performance with minimal investment and experience.
I haven't had a chance to finish my Servo W/T as I'm fighting Cancer BUT (got all the parts) -- Things may be looking better for me to get my project back on track this coming year.
Glad to have another Servo experimenter to discuss things with. Best of luck----
Bill
-
Ksouers,
"Mike and Adam" I was referring to are--- "Birdhouse/Adam and 97Fishmt/Mike" Look for their Servo inputs over the past 3-4 years on this and other Windpower Forums. They have very important 1st hand knowledge, experiences and advice with turning Servos into very productive W/T's !
Best advice I can offer,
Bill
-
Hi Bill,
Yes, I knew who you were referring to. I followed both of their threads.
Thanks for the inquiry. I haven't really done anything with the servo yet. I really don't have a place to fly it. My test stand isn't big enough for it, it won't handle the weight. Though I have put some foam test blades on it to try to determine what size it would need but there hasn't been enough wind and sitting on a bench down low doesn't really help.
Anyway, so far I think I'll need a 6 foot turbine to get adequate power out of it. 4 foot is really too small and 5 just barely makes it do anything in light wind. So it will have to wait until we acquire our retirement property and start building. Maybe in the next couple years. I was able to clean up the goo that held the bearings in, that help some to get them aligned. Haven't tried tapping tapping the shaft, though I have fiddled with the case alignment a bit and torquing the bolts down (order, torque).
Cancer, man that sucks :( Best of luck. I have a friend recovering from colon cancer and tumors on the liver. So far he's doing OK.
Kevin
-
I have a few of these motors, and a project I have built to use it. I just have to wait for the place to set it up.
The stator of that motor is completely sealed, almost impossible to get to the connections to try anything different than star / parallel coil original arrangement. I disassembled a 05A2AB and tried to remove the plastic / epoxy stator casting on the rear to expose the junctions. I did find them, but damaged coil connections at the same time. It wonh't melt or burn off, I could only heat and chisel or grind it off. SO don't bother.
The shaft drag may be the front shaft seal, and the bearings are very stiff due to the type of grease inside. I used the flanges from the destroyed 05A2AB and flushed the bearings and replaced it with a lighter oil. Used them for shaft bearings on a tower. I don't think you need to do it, the bearings will probably never die if they are not tampered with. And that front shaft bearing is a monster, rated for high radial and axial loading (i.e. throw a big prop on that thing). The bearing pictured is the rear shaft bearing, but note that large shaft diameter on the front, the bearing that fits that is 32mm ID (1.25") and over 3 inches OD.
Below is a picture of a disassembled 05A2AB (same series as yours / no brake / 450 watt size) and an open 09DA1S (same specs as yours / older series / double the size). I also have one identical to yours without the brake. The rotor of the 450 has two offset rows of 8 magnets. I never pulled the rotor from the older 850 or the newer one.
(http://lakesidepark.home.comcast.net/~lakesidepark/wind/inside%20450%20and%20850%20servo%20small.JPG)
I did make a simple bench test of several of these motors using a variable drill, a clicker and stopwatch, and a fluke meter. Not scientific but at least gave me a basis to compare the motors. From my test your motor will reach charging voltage (for 12V app) at around 200RPM. The results may be current-limited because I used load resistors with 50W rating, and the upper speeds exceeded that wattage, producing a thermal generation at the testing component that could be registered on touch-sensor (i.e. it burned my finger). This means upper measurements may be lower than actual possible output at the given RPM (I hope).
(http://lakesidepark.home.comcast.net/~lakesidepark/wind/servo%20test%20finish.JPG)
And a picture of the new 450 and 850 with specs for them and additional 450 and 750 small / 3000RPM motors:
(http://lakesidepark.home.comcast.net/~lakesidepark/wind/servo%20450%20850.JPG)
What I didn't include in the tests were results of re-wiring the older 850 motor (large frame) to a star / series coil configuration. As expected, it tripled the output voltage. Gonna use that one on a VAWT with a 1:1.7 ratio chain drive.
If you have a choice between an older motor and a newer one of the same wattage, and the size difference is not an issue, the older one may be more adaptable - depending on your application I guess.
-
FYI when you take the rear cap off you may pull the front shaft or bearing back while doing it. If they dont go back forward, the bearing in the rear may be loading up, and if they go too far, it may be preloading that large front bearing.
To reassemble, tap shaft from the rear on the encoder / brake shaft end to seat the front bearing and shaft full forward, finish assembly (making sure the thrust spring washer is in place behind the rear bearing), then tap the shaft lightly from the front to loosen any preload, but not to collapse the spring in the rear.
The front bearing seats to the front flange from the back side. You can remove the front shaft seal plate (three allen screws) and see the front side of the bearing to make sure it is fully seated forward.
That should get it right.
-
Hey, thanks Lakeside. That's a lot of good information.
I'll have to take some time to digest it. Brain works a little slow at this age ::)
I didn't try tapping the shaft around. Just wiggling the casing making sure I didn't put anything in a bind when tightening it up.
I'll have to give that a shot.
Kevin
-
Hi all, my first message.
I am from Brazil, and for many years I am trying to put an wind generator on the air...
(http://)
I use a weg servo 1,6 kW, 2000 rpm, i = 8A, i max 40A, 230V, 8 poles.
At 400 rpm it makes 45V, free.
At 600 rpm, 26 V, 19,2 A, 5020W with a dum load of 2 ohm
At 770 rpm 55 V, 13,1 A, 720 W - 5 ohm.
Although the motor is rated for 8A, in heavy wind, as a generator, I think it can run at 16A, or even more...