guess who bought a power jack inverter

[techitout]

G'day all

I'm new to the forum, but have followed for a few months, thought it was time I came in for a yarn. I bought a PJ LF 8000/48, did the mod and now have 0.4A no load current, though I could only source a 55mm Core, it seems to be going ok. many thanks to Oztules for that, now looking at getting another PJ as a back up.  I am having the same problem as others with the over voltage cut out, seems the spikes from my homebrew boost converters are upsetting the powerjack, though I'm still working on temp. compensation of the charge voltage. I will keep the zener / resistor mod in mind if all else fails.

cheers Dave

[oztules]

I've been too lazy to do anything about it right now.... last thing was no zener, but 700k across the same point instead.

Have not even found out/tested how high it will go before turn off, as that is controlled by my external solar regulator I built and the grid tie shut off.
Will get back to it one day perhaps, but it just works so well.... I have no fire in the belly at the moment for change that dose not seem urgent.... at all

Yes I'm slack.



...................oztules

[oztules]

Thanks Oztules for all your explanations, I have at last with your help fired up the PJ to wake up the sonny boy grid tie inverter and charge the batteries with pv power, But it wont kick it into gear, it comes up with a fault (PE connect missing). When I test things out I find there is about 240v on the grid tie live and neutral, but also 120v ish to earth on both the live and neutral, as you said its a crappy grid tie inverter, can you suggest a cure. Steve3

I'm not sure I follow... does the PJ wake up the sunnyboy....... if it wakes does it charge at all, or does it, just not find the panels. Experience with LF units don't help here, as they only use the solar panels as the drive for the logic, and not until they are to connect to the grid do they exchange any watts at all from the AC side. They won't even wake up with grid alone... they must have panel voltage to even boot.

I have no idea how the HF units work, never seen one in real life...
I will have to assume they are just a buck/boost converter directly on line to the panels and the PJ. I say this because I see they need to earth the panel surrounds because of capacitive and inductive currents from the cells to the frame... in the LF units, no earth is necessary, as there is no modulated DC in the panel.

I am guessing the 120v to ground, is actually from the tiny caps for noise. They go from the acitve to ground to  neutral. So an emf will present if there is no low impedance to ground... ie if the neutral gets grounded, then there will be 240v from active to ground and 0v from neutral to ground.

 If for some reason, your ground is floating then i would expect a voltage of half the output to ground to either output rail.

When I drive the house,...the neutral is tied to ground as the MEN earth system demands this neutral ground tie.

With some HF inverters, doing this will cause destruction.... one has to assume HF grid tie inverters can handle this fine... or they could not be used.

I believe the sunny boy is a quality product.... maybe it does not want to play with down market PJ grids. The PJ gives a very very good rendition of a sine wave, and have never found the grid ties to not play with them.



............oztules

[steve3]

Hi Oztules sorry to be a pain but I do value your input.
The Sunny boy wakes up, the display cycles though the two strings of panels, showing the two voltages generated, but 0 amps in both cases. The display shows a picture of a switch feeding to the grid this is open, at the bottom It says (PE connect missing). I'm trying to measure the earth loop impedance in my work shop outside the main building, but both my meter for this are quite old and the earth trip switches off.

I have also been trying four times or more to get some info out of the chinky in Ireland where I purchased the PJ.  They are driving me mad and not understanding a word I was saying.

My last Email to them went something like this.

hello sir. (from them)
sorry, we confuse the meaning.

(2) Next to C30 the screw is missing??, this is at the back of the lower
negative terminal, please look at one of your inverters.----we checked the
detail, can't find out the location of C30, could you help to take a photo
to show us, thanks.

(3) Tell me is there two fibre washer fitted to the screw in your inverter,
yes or no please??.-----could you help to take a photo to show us, thanks.

(4) Can you modify inverter to show DC amps on LCD display.------sorry, it
can't

(5) Can you please send me a circuit diagram of the 8000w LF
inverter.------sorry, we can't provide.


- rayjunglepower

So I wrote to them again.

Hi Mr rayjunglepower
                    I have tried to explain things to you three or four
times but you do not seem to have a very good grasp of English, I am trying
to work out if you are Chinese Japanese or F******* Peakanese.
Steve.

If you need any more info let me know Oz, I might hear back from Ireland (whoops ) tying the PJ N to earth in some way I would Think is the answer, stay with me Oz please. Steve.

I can remember many years ago having a similar problem, with a petrol generator, how did I fix it, I don't know. Steve.

[oztules]

Hmm, What is the voltage at the sunnboy ac input/output terminals..... 230 volts or so?

Where exactly have you connected to the PJ??.......... to the output power points?

If you have wired to the terminal block... this is for shore input.... not output. It cannot work connected to the terminal block, Has to be to the power point output, that you plug appliances into.



The sunnyboy seems to be unable to see grid... not panels from your description... I assume it is because it has no 240v on it's ac output terminals

I don't see the earthing stuff making any material difference. I know a bloke in South Australia using a sunny boy in this configuration.

Plug the sunny into your real grid check it still works, if not check internal ac fuse in the sunnyboy and repeat tests on the real grid.

When you get it to run on the real grid, lift the earth and repeat the test. If it still works, then it is not an earthing fault problem.


The PJ creates a real grid, of very clean power to replace the grid, it must work, and there must be a simple explanation here... I suspect no ac going from the pj to the sunny.


Some circuits here....    http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,780.0.html
The PJ display is an AC only display. It uses a current transformer and a transformer as the sensors, with it's supply regulated from the power supply on the control card. It cannot see the battery in this setup, never mind the programming in it.



..........oztules

[steve3]

Hi Oztules When I go back to the grid the sonny boy and the house works well.
L to N about 240v, N to earth about 0.

As you say (plugged) into the PJ the house works well,?
The voltage at the sonny boy terminals are L to N about 240v ish.
Live to earth about 120v, N to earth about 120v ish. There is a good earth at the sonny boy.
As I said before the sonny boy is seeing voltage from the panels but not switching on the final sw on the display to connect to the grid, I think it is looking at the high N voltage and thinks the earth is missing, the display says (PE connect missing).
Because I was worried about the neutral isolation I have fitted double pole SW just like you.
 I'm stumped Oz.
Maybe check the output of your box please, don't do anything drastic, ha.
Lets hope the chinkys from Ireland come up with cure, But I don't think they will, more chance if we keep talking, they could not even find C30 in the PJ.
Just had a thought Oz, Tomorrow I will run a temp E wire to main E terminal in the house, to my workshop outside where the PJ lives I will try anything, ha. Steve.

[oztules]

If you can run the house with the powerjack, then simply shut off the main switch, run the house with the PJ, and turn on the grid tie. Then whatever earthing you have on the main switchboard will be the earthing regime for the new "grid".... it should be MEN system.

ie simply replace the grid with the power jack.

At the moment your earth is floating, and there is no connection between neutral and ground... the sunny sees this, and being non-galvanically isolated, would see this as a problem. Mine are galvanically isolated, and see no such problem.... but my neutral is grounded in the switchboard when the generator switch is thrown, it floats until then. But once connected to the house, shares the same neutral bonding points to ground as did the grid.

At some point in this system you will have to connect your neutral to your earth point, as you are not getting this in your current setup.

Your main switchboard should have a brass bar with earth and neutral wires bonded together, and then grounded... this should be in your circuit too.

For a test, place a 5 amp fuse between the neutral of the PJ and the earth point. This will give you a test bond point. If there is a conflict between your choice of N and the ground, the fuse will blow... if you picked the right one, it will give you something to test the sunny with...... but it will give you 240 to ground from the active, and 0v from neutral to ground.

The sunny is designed to run into an inverter ( sunny island) for the reverse battery charging thing.


........john

[steve3]

Your main switchboard should have a brass bar with earth and neutral wires bonded together, and then grounded... this should be in your circuit too.
       Yes your right

The three systems used in the UK are: TN–S, TN–C–S (PME) or TT. However, because TT systems are not directly earthed they are prohibited for low voltage public supply in the UK.

TN–S
TN–C–S
TT
TN–C
IT

T = Earth. Direction connection with Earth (From the French word for ground: Terre).
N = Neutral. Connection to earth via the supply network.
S = Separate.
C = Combined.
I = Isolated. No connection with earth, unless through a high impedance.

      This is what it is all about over here John/OZ, the PME system you talk about bonded N is done at the mains well before the meter, so when you kill your double pole SW this bonding is lost, my system is not bonded N in the house it is done at the mains transformer maybe half a mile away, or in the street underground. If I could see a diagram of the PJ I would just earth the N in the PJ and have no fears, but I will try your test with a fuse then let you know if things go pop, I will use a 3 amp fuse I'm chicken, but really it depends what other electronics they have on the output wiring. Steve.

[steve3]

Hi John I did your test with a 2a fuse, the 2a remand healthy, great, so far so good, next wire up a plug top with the N linked to the E terminal plugged that into the PJ, SW the inverter on, nipped up into the loft to check the sunny boy and its working 100%. Rechecked the inverter and its charging the batteries are charging 30 to 40 a, I did send an email to the chinkys in Ireland to see if they recommend linking the N inside the Sonny boy lets see what they say, must now find an easy way to stop over charging the batteries, well done son your a hero and a gentleman, what a saga, where would I be without you, many many thanks John. Steve.

[gww]

That why it called oztules wonderous creations.
Cheers
gww

[oztules]

"must now find an easy way to stop over charging the batteries"

Try reply #60 http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,902.60.html

It has been running for a bit now... works perfectly.... and simple.

.............oztules

[techitout]

hey oz, did you change out that over voltage resistor or just put 700k (680k?) in parallel with the existing one?

I think the PJ has temp. compensation on the O-V as I'm seeing the alarm more now its getting warmer Ctl QLD 30 ish deg C

about to reduce the charge voltage, 58v to 56.5v (until I can sort the temp. comp. from the reg.) & hope that cures it.

dave

[oztules]

No, I just piggy backed it parallel

Have not seen OV and temp as a couple...... seem not related to me, but , the programming is out of our hands..... we can only effect  the outcome by masking the inputs the computer sees.

A 5v6 zener across the resistor will stop any over voltage ever occurring, but then there is no safety...... which does not bother me, and the onboard charger will not know how it is doing either.... again.... I don't care, but others may.

My other gear looks after the over voltage, and the on board charger is not for me.

I have flooded cells, and would not be happy with less than 58v


................oztules

[techitout]

yep, similar situation for me, not using the charger bit of the PJ, external gear doing voltage control and all that, just using it as an inverter,  off grid where I am (Trojan T105 Flooded x , but the idea of plumbing in a grid tie system to what I've got ......... any recommendations on a small & cheap grid tie inverter, say 1-1.5kw xfmr coupled?, I'll have to get some temp gauges on the PowerJack so I can rest easy with the OV mod (only got 1 PJ now, and I need it!).

I like your work, thanks for your responses, very helpful, and appreciated
..............dave

[oztules]

If in Australia.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-1-5kw-SOLAR-GRID-INVERTER-invertor-panel-meter-connected-/251649481782?pt=AU_Solar&hash=item3a977a5c36

or http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-1-5kw-SOLAR-GRID-INVERTER-69-99-Melb-battery-invertor-panel-meter-connected-/161425167689?pt=AU_Solar&hash=item2595b09549

an aerosharp would be slightly better production wise.

 I use these things for monitoring internal transformer and low side heat sinks.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LCD-Refrigerator-Freezer-Fridge-Digital-Thermometer-Temperature-50-110-c-SL-/301246430073?pt=AU_Decor_Furnishing&hash=item4623afbb79


I run 24 t105-re

..............oztules