Author Topic: what's up with this stator??  (Read 13702 times)

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Offline oztules

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Re: what's up with this stator??
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2012, 07:40:46 pm »
Lets be clear about this. Magic is magnetic fields and electric fields and gravity fields...we dont know what they are .... at all..... but apart from that there is no magic. We do know all we need to know about their effects and behaviour.

To induce an emf into a wire, it needs to have to see a changing field, and ideally at right angles to the wire direction (angle of attack for want of a better phrase)

It does not matter what winding style you care to use, if you keep the flux density and rate  of change the same in all cases.... then it follows that you MUST have the same turns number for the same emf at the same rpm... no magic can change that.... very simple.

So all the winding styles have to achieve that same thing. The difference between like serpentine and like flat coils in epoxy or resin can be small or considerable.... they are hand made, and usually to accommodate the practicalities of the stator size etc.

If you try to emulate the 4:3 with skein, then the end loops will push the resistance up for the same emf (huge end loops)....... so to get around this folks try the magnet next door , or every magnet or any combination they please, but in the end it is the number of wires getting cut at the same time in the same phase that will generate the result. (angle of attack assumed the same)

If  winding with serpentine or wave, then the chances are high that the flux density will have to change to accommodate the crossing of wire in the gap. With steel core this counts for very little. The Alts for cars take advantage of this. Very thick wire, few turns, and the slot directs the field...and the field is is at the behest of the regulator so all problems are solved. Air gap machines don't have this luxury, so for skein, or serpentine or layered, these problems are far more important to overcome, as are the end loop radius.

Serpentine does not solve the end loops. For every 2 bundles of wire in the legs, there are 2 loops to support the current path. eg for 6 poles, a single layer skein will cover three poles. It will encompass 6 end loops for the three poles..... same as using three coils. same result.

If we then inter wind a longer skein to encompass the 6 poles in a single skein, we end up with 12 loop ends, and 6 poles covered.... same thing with flat coils  ie 6 coils, and 12 end loops. Serpentine does not get rid of any end loops. It just saves some practical winding problems.

The only thing you can hope to change when using any wiring scheme is the resistance (for the same gap and magnets), but the emf induced in a single turn in like circumstances will be the same regardless.

If somehow you can pack thicker wire of the same turns.... then it is a win. I cant see overlapping doing this, but if you found a difference, then it will likely have to do with flux density being different, or the attack angles on the legs are different, because the same turns will yield the same emf............unless you use geometrically different shaped coils I guess. With iron core that is not possible to mess with, but with free hand air gap..... sky is the limit I suppose.

So if you see an appreciable difference in an experiment, and it does not match the theory, then wee need to look for why. We understand very very well how electrons are influenced by magnetic fields, and this is the basis for tv tubes, and an endless amount of electronics all the way to atomic accelerators.

We can calculate for the tiniest variations... we cannot break the rules. How we interpret the results of experiments needs to be done very carefully, mindful that the rules cant even be bent.... so look for the real reasons something may not follow the rules.

When it come to theories that are not based in true science, then it's just a theory anyway.... otherwise known as an opinion, and society seems to be in love with that "science" at the moment.




................oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline tomw

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Re: what's up with this stator??
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2012, 08:22:10 pm »
Lets be clear about this. Magic is magnetic fields and electric fields and gravity fields...we dont know what they are .... at all..... but apart from that there is no magic. We do know all we need to know about their effects and behaviour.

To induce an emf into a wire, it needs to have to see a changing field, and ideally at right angles to the wire direction (angle of attack for want of a better phrase)

It does not matter what winding style you care to use, if you keep the flux density and rate  of change the same in all cases.... then it follows that you MUST have the same turns number for the same emf at the same rpm... no magic can change that.... very simple.

So all the winding styles have to achieve that same thing. The difference between like serpentine and like flat coils in epoxy or resin can be small or considerable.... they are hand made, and usually to accommodate the practicalities of the stator size etc.

If you try to emulate the 4:3 with skein, then the end loops will push the resistance up for the same emf (huge end loops)....... so to get around this folks try the magnet next door , or every magnet or any combination they please, but in the end it is the number of wires getting cut at the same time in the same phase that will generate the result. (angle of attack assumed the same)

If  winding with serpentine or wave, then the chances are high that the flux density will have to change to accommodate the crossing of wire in the gap. With steel core this counts for very little. The Alts for cars take advantage of this. Very thick wire, few turns, and the slot directs the field...and the field is is at the behest of the regulator so all problems are solved. Air gap machines don't have this luxury, so for skein, or serpentine or layered, these problems are far more important to overcome, as are the end loop radius.

Serpentine does not solve the end loops. For every 2 bundles of wire in the legs, there are 2 loops to support the current path. eg for 6 poles, a single layer skein will cover three poles. It will encompass 6 end loops for the three poles..... same as using three coils. same result.

If we then inter wind a longer skein to encompass the 6 poles in a single skein, we end up with 12 loop ends, and 6 poles covered.... same thing with flat coils  ie 6 coils, and 12 end loops. Serpentine does not get rid of any end loops. It just saves some practical winding problems.

The only thing you can hope to change when using any wiring scheme is the resistance (for the same gap and magnets), but the emf induced in a single turn in like circumstances will be the same regardless.

If somehow you can pack thicker wire of the same turns.... then it is a win. I cant see overlapping doing this, but if you found a difference, then it will likely have to do with flux density being different, or the attack angles on the legs are different, because the same turns will yield the same emf............unless you use geometrically different shaped coils I guess. With iron core that is not possible to mess with, but with free hand air gap..... sky is the limit I suppose.

So if you see an appreciable difference in an experiment, and it does not match the theory, then wee need to look for why. We understand very very well how electrons are influenced by magnetic fields, and this is the basis for tv tubes, and an endless amount of electronics all the way to atomic accelerators.

We can calculate for the tiniest variations... we cannot break the rules. How we interpret the results of experiments needs to be done very carefully, mindful that the rules cant even be bent.... so look for the real reasons something may not follow the rules.

When it come to theories that are not based in true science, then it's just a theory anyway.... otherwise known as an opinion, and society seems to be in love with that "science" at the moment.




................oztules

Oz;

Well said.

I like the "magic" analysis best.

Tom
Do NOT mistake me for any kind of "expert".

( ?° ?? ?°)


24 Trina 310 watt modules, SMA SunnyBoy 7.7 KW Grid Tie inverter.

I thought that they were angels, but much to my surprise, We climbed aboard their starship and headed for the skies

Offline niall

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Re: what's up with this stator??
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2012, 09:43:16 pm »
"all the way to atomic accelerators"

erm ...dont know about that bit ...

throws a dead dog into the well...

a serpentine winding maybe might save the bit of restisance with the wire  that links the coils ...

coils and magnets ..... :)

Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: what's up with this stator??
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2012, 10:15:21 pm »
When it come to theories that are not based in true science, then it's just a theory anyway.... otherwise known as an opinion, and society seems to be in love with that "science" at the moment.

oz - do you have any theory why the serpentine stators I built vibrated so bad?  I tried several different combinations - a couple 12 pole units, one 14 pole and one 10 pole, IIRC.  They all did the same thing.  It would hit a certain rpm where something matched between the current frequency and harmonics in the windings and the generator would emit the most terrible howl you've ever heard.  It sounded almost like a bearing locking up.  Get the generator running faster than that, or slower, and it would go away.

The one 10 footer I built and flew for awhile did it right about 200-250 watts, which is were it ran most of the time.
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Offline oztules

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Re: what's up with this stator??
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2012, 05:33:33 pm »
Niall..
"all the way to atomic accelerators"

erm ...dont know about that bit ..." 

Did you read reactor rather than accelerator perhaps?

I think reactors use the weak force, rather then the electromagnetic force.... but...

The whole point of a particle accelerator/ atom smasher... is to use magnetic fields to both contain and accelerate charged particles.

.... and this is where the real magic is.

Consider electron behaviour in the super conductors for the electromagnets to keep the particles where you want them... and then why the superconductivity fails at 10^5 amps/cm^2....  weird magic to me.


Chris,
It is the back MMF working against the magnets that make the impulse. If your units made noise at certain speeds, it will be the natural resonance of the head and tower being lit up at certain frequencies.

Interestingly, the MMF reaction increases with current, but your noise decreased after a certain speed..... so it really seems like simple resonance of the system..... which unfortunately matched the normal running speeds. Single and three phase will behave differently, but at the right frequency, will still resonate . I expect single phase more so than three phase, as all coils get hit at the same time with the same reactive force, three phase spreads the pain a bit better.


..............oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia