Anotherpower.com Forum
Renewable Energy Questions/Discussion => Wind and Hydro => Topic started by: 97fishmt on January 11, 2012, 08:39:43 pm
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This little gem has been kicking it out at my cabin when my big unit is down while
I'm away. I actually arranged to sell this one for 3 cords of wood but I've only received
one cord so far. So it's back up on my little pole and keeping my 12 volt bank topped off.
This is a real nice motor for 12 volt charging.
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That's a nice unit. What do you look for when selecting a servo?
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Basically the newer ones with the neo magnets for compact size.
200 volt 1500rpm.
The 400 volt 1500 rpm are awesome for 24 volt charging.
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Neat, I followed posts on these a couple years back.. what names. or what should I look for if I were to search out some of them?
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All the manufactures are a little different in building motors because it takes thier controller
to make it work as a motor. All the permanent magnet AC servo motors will work as an
alternator. Some just work better in the rpm range that we are looking for-for a wind generator.
I like Yaskawa, Ormek is the one in the picture. I have a Siemens that has been working for
over 10 years.
I'd be glad to help with any questions anyone has about using a servo motor for a wind turbine.
Mike
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This is my big one up now.
It's labeled as IIS, a custom servo motor company from New York.
300 volt 1500 rpm 80 amps. I expect to get 3000 watts out of this
one at 30 volts. (100 amps) 25 volts @ 120 rpm Just getting the
prop together now.
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I know these are old pictures from other posts,
I'm just establishing how I've made the wind
work for me and hanging my hat in a corner of
the room at this site.
Mike
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That's pretty sweet, man.
One thing I've always wondered about the servos, as I haven't had my hands on any myself to even tinker with. From what I understand they are similar in behavior to steppers, right? So is there the whole noise issue (like the whine) that comes from steppers?
I realize that fundamentally, they are different. But from what I read, there are similarities that seem to me to be enough like stepper to beg the question. :)
Steve
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Not at all Steve,
The magnets are skewed so there is no cogging. They spin free of any magnetic drag.
They are wound with 3 phase windings with neo magnets. It's as good as it gets.
They are what Zubbly was trying to duplicate. Just nobody could afford them.
Now you can find them being swapped out of machinery or new old stock.
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There is a picture of one here http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4488&PN=1 That is a servo and I just made the blade extenders ( it made a 6 footer out of a 4 footer) and all you can hear is a little air noise off the blades when she reaches cut in. bub And I have several that we will be putting up as time allows.
With Mike's help we like them but do the math so you dont get one that wont make your desired cut in speed Smileys/default/smiley.gif
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Mike
What do you use on your tower mast pipe to hold the yaw tube in place ?
To keep it from sliding down the pipe?
I have to make up some new motor mounts and am collecting Idea's
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Hi Isaiah,
If I understand you right, my pipe over pipe bearing at the tower top is welded
to the motor platform. The tower stub has a teflon doughnut on top of the stub
and the motor mount goes over it , riding on the teflon bushing. This is the motor mount.
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@97fishmt
Wow, that looks awefully familiar
Nice looking job btw
(http://www.anotherpower.com/albums/album19/DSCN4228.jpg)
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97 Fishmt,
I have read your posts about Servo Motors as a WT for some time. Have been looking on Ebay for the last 3 weeks for a suitable unit for a project. Prices have gone up!
I have taken to looking for units that are listed as 2kw and up with 15 amps and voltages as high as i can find at no higher than 2000 RPM as a project. If I have read your posts correctly (on another forum) I believe these parameters would provide an effective WT at 10-20 mph windspeeds, correct?
By the way thanks so much for your out-of- the-box thinking, can't wait to get started. What are you using for power control? what is the pole size for your big unit?
Bill
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Hi 97,
If your anywhere near Ottawa, I'd give you 5 cord for that...
What are these motors used for ?
Maybe I can find some....A friend of mine owns a junk-yard..
I like your projects ,well within my ability's ...
Do you have any pics of the guts of the thing....
These electric motors pretty much look all the same to me ,...just wondering what distiguishes,good from bad.......thanks for posting .....artv
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Hi Bill,
There are still deals out there but really even spending a little
more for them now sure beats what you have to do to make an
axial flux machine not to mention buying the neo magnets now. :o
I'm using two trace c-40's in dump mode to take care of the batteries.
My tower top stub is 3" pipe. Good luck with the motor search! :D
If you find one and you aren't sure about it just email me and I'll
help if I can.
Artv,
These motors are mainly used for robots
or milling machines. Look for 3 phase
permanent magnet on the label.
Yes there are pictures of the guts.
I took one apart once and took
pictures of the skewed magnets.
I'll see if I can find them again.
Thanks for your replies.
Mike
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Mike,
have found a Yaskawa Servo on ebay (Item # 140548697813) listed with the following characteristics. I think the magnets might not be Neos and weighs a bit but, to my mind has the fundemental requirements for a good WT. Thoughts, recommendations? Price now is $175- I couldn't build an alternator for this amount with this power output.
Yaskawa Electric Crop. Ac Servo Motor
Type: USADEM-45-HG12
KW: 4.5
NM: 28.6
RPM: 1500
Amps: 28.7
Serial: 221757 002 -005
Date: 9212
would like your experienced input.
Bill
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Yes that one looks nice, a little pricey.
Maybe you can get it for less by making an offer?
15 volt and you will see 30 amps easy,
maybe even 60. An easy way to get a nice weather
proof turbine. Or keep looking, I can tell you got the bug! :)
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Bill, the one in the picture above, I am really impressed with its performance.
I got one that had a damaged connecting terminal for $50.
The yaskawa looks like a bigger motor though probably more powerful too.
It's hard to find data on motors that have been discontinued and replaced
with a newer model.
I think the neo's came in around 98 or so. Still I have a few with the older magnets also,
they are just bigger and heavier, more mass in the rotating armature so not as quick to
spin up but they work.
Mike
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Mike,
Thanks for the quick reply. I want to get going ASAP. I have the one you sent me on my "wish list" too. Your pick looks like it may have neos in it.
Currently who knows may bid for both-LOL. I'm looking at using these for battery charging but, am thinking these two candidates would work out as 24 Volt alternators on a more efficient higher voltage efficient system overall. I am looking at possibly controlling the charging system eventually with a" Classic" Controller. Do you have any thoughts for immediate / long term thoughts for controllers without buying two different units? Of course it's with thoughts of using the Servos as alternators?
I have built a "yard-art" system with a treadmill motor and 32' tilt-up tower using 2.5" pipe, 6.5' PVC blades. Watching 2.5 years now and learning from it. It was lots of fun and am definitely hooked ------LOL
I am thinking of using 4" pipe for my tilt up tower. I also have two different 40' Rhone Towers I could use but I would have to build a tiltable base for those. I have not gotten the model #'s for the Rhone towers. My average year around wind speed is not consistent here in Defuniak Springs, Fl.
I have usable wind from Fall through late Spring (10 20 mph). So this project is more a hobby than a requirement---LOL
any input to my thoughts would be greatly appreciated,
Bill
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Hi Bill,
I think for going for 24 volt or higher you should look for higher voltage motors.
400 or 600 volt. I just did a story on a 400 volt motor for charging a 24 volt battery.
For a controller, you are hooking the motor directly to the battery, with a 3 phase rectifier in line of course.
You need the controller to dump power it has nothing to do with the turbine.
You can even get a base on eBay for a rohn tower and then modify it. I did that for my first one.
My next tower I got came with a base and I did the same mods to it to make it tilt.
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Hello..
Just thought I'd mention that junk yards are a great place to shop for servo motors. I believe that most servos are junked due to problems with their encoders, which will not effect their ability/suitability for generating power.
Most all servos have two bulkhead electrical fittings, one with "fewer" larger pins and the other connections "many" smaller pins. First check if the shaft spins by hand, if it doesn't it probably has a brake and isn't the best candidate. If the shaft does turn, simply take a coin and short any two OF THE LARGER PINS (random) together and turn the shaft. It should be much harder to turn, if not short two other pins and try again.
You should find all three of the THREE PHASE legs and shorting any two should cause the shaft to turn hard, short all three and it will be VERY hard to spin which indicates that it's capable of generating power. Checking the manufactures rating plate for rpm/voltage may be the best way to judge it's suitability for your use.
Also note that most all servo motors are NOT rated by horse power but by NM (newton meters)
Servos with brakes can be modified to work, but it can be very tricky.
ax7
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Mike & 12ax7,
Thanks for good info. Never thought about junkyards for servos, will look --you bet! Good info on quick "field" checks on servos too.
I also like the info on brakes, my thoughts too.
Mike, I will start looking for "base plates" as I go along on this project. Your advice on the >400 vac motors for 24 volt systems is locked in too.
(Gents I'm just recovering from cancer/numerous treatments within past month. Not complaining but have used the past 9 month period to read all projects here and "Field Lines-Forum," to decide on how I want to go forward on my project.)
Mike, I feel like a 10'-12' prop would drive the servos we discussed quite well----- thoughts or suggestions on type of airfoil?
Bill
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Actually Bill in that size of a motor I have only gone as far as an 8' rotor.
It will depend on how stiff it is. You will want to be able to stop it.
I was running a 10'er on a 9kw motor and it was pretty darn good
a great improvement from an 8'er for that motor ( my first one ).
The 4-5kw motors are pretty small. I'm only trying to get 1000 watts
out of them max. I guess when I get another tower up (A good distance
from the house) I may push the limits more. I like a slow machine though
we're talking around100- 400 rpm. Larger props are limited in speed.
So if you're thinking 10' to 12' rotor then somewhere in the 10kw servo
motor range. It doesn't mean you can't try, I try different motor- prop
combinations all the time.
I wish you good health in the future :)
Mike
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Mike,
Went ahead and made $100 bid on the Yaskawa described on my first post to you yesterday. This morning, got a call from gent named Toshi/ (California engineering Co.). Didn't comment on my bid but, was interested in what I was building and what he could provide in future.
I related I was looking for 1500 rpm, 200(+) volts, higher wattage(+ 4KW). He said they have quite a lot of the newer servos with Neo magnets and would look around and call me back later today. Has many different brands there.
If this works out I will gladly pass tel. info/contacts along.
Bill
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Wow that's way cool Bill!!
Maybe we could get some real expert advice on these!
Please keep up the good fight and get the word out,
I'm tired of trying. Wish you well. :)
Mike
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Hi Bill,
You can even get a base on eBay for a rohn tower and then modify it. I did that for my first one.
My next tower I got came with a base and I did the same mods to it to make it tilt.
Mike, I will start looking for "base plates" as I go along on this project.
(http://s889.photobucket.com/albums/ac93/klmurf/?action-view&current=basehinge.jpg)
--Mod edit This image does not exist at the link provided could this be fixed, uploaded here, or we could provide a gallery album--
If you can weld, you can always do something up yourself. This is what I've got for my Rohn 25G tilt up.
Hope the pic works, first post and all.
Kevin
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Kevin,
thanks for the pix of your base plate hinge. I will certainly try and copy your idea for mine when I get to raise the whole thing.
I looked at my two towers today and the first (40') looks exactly like your pix. the second one (30') has tubing the same size as the vertical legs but, they flattened the ends and welded them as the cross bracing. Each section is approx. 10' long.
I can weld and will certainly try copying your base plate version. Thank you,
Bill
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Well Gents,
Bought my first Servo !!
Not ideal, but for $40 it will give me enough to make an adequate 12 V charging unit and I can adapt the existing tower and 6' rotor
until I can do better. I think the Servo will need a larger Rotor ?
stats on the unit are: Year 1987, FANUC Model #10 2000rpm, 148Volts, 21 Amps,
Mike, I still have my eye on the unit you were describing but, can't find any technical data. will call the company first of week for more info. Have reread all your data again and I think I have a better "feel" for what's needed. Many thanks
"Got the Servo Bug--- I think it's terminal"
Bill
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Yep.
An 8'er probably to get it moving and up to producing power.
It needs to be a fast one though. Although I have a few motors
that do really well with a 6'er on it comparable to your new motor.
But with carved cedar blades. ;)
Now it's time to start blade carving! :) Or some of those blades
Chris uses. I've tried them and they do work pretty good, not as
good as some of my carved blades in the same size, due to
weight compared to cedar.
They will last along time though. I just bought the 13'er for my
big unit and the blades sure look nice! :) I've done just about
everything for blades, but I guess you got to love making them.
I'm being lazy lately. ::)
Good score on the motor, hope it works out. I haven't had a
dud yet.
Have fun building and flying your new baby!
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Well, you've got me into this too, now.
I'm just a newbie - I've fooled around with an ECM and PVC blades on a too-short tower for a couple years.
Just got a Sanyo P6 - 2000 RPM, 2KW, 200V, 14.6A ($100 on fleabay).
Spun it with a drill and I get ~14Voc from (any) two of the large pins through a bridge @ 375 RPM - 1.8A into a 12.3V FLA at that same speed.
I get about 60Voc @ 1550 RPM and the voltage curve seems linear.
Questions:
375 seems pretty fast for cutin - do I need gearing?
If not, what size/type blades would you recommend?
What happens to the voltage/current when all three phases are being used (no 3 phase bridge yet)?
Thanks for any and all answers and suggestions.
-Rick
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Cool Rick, you're on your way to having a real nice wind turbine!
Get another bridge rectifier or two and then measure your volts.
It will be fine, no gearing, the rotor is your gathering device so,
a nice set of blades is going to make it work. Skimp on the blades
and it wont work.
I run a 6' prop on those most of the time. It depends on your
wind. You could get away with an 8'er. It's all about getting
into good clean wind.
Have fun building, It will pay off. ;)
Mike
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Hi Mike
I too, am servo-curious. I've recently scored one that works by the numbers, but has cogging issues.
Have any that you've tried, had this?
The motor is a 6 pole 240V 29.5A I get cut in at 275rpm @13.6V which looks good to me, but I'm a noob. I'm just afraid it will take a gale to get a set of blades to turn.
Thanks for any input. Kevin
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Well Kevin,
That is a little high for 12 volt charging. It doesn't mean you can't try.
I never have tried a 6 pole motor. I know the older motors can have
a slight cog or gear feel to them when spun.
I have a pile of brushed motors that are super generators when they
finally get up and spinning.
I'm building an engine driven generator from one I don't think has a
low enough rpm for a turbine.
A fast 8'er could do it for you. Big wires to the battery and maybe.
Give it a try.
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Thanks for your reply Mike. I really appreciate the post you and Adam (Birdhouse) have made regarding the use of servo motors.
I believe I've read most all you've posted here and elsewhere. Keep it up!
I knew the motor was marginal to begin with, but you gotta start learning somewhere. Besides, for me the fun is tinkering!
Kevin
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I got some of those raptor blades from eBay to see how they will work
on some of these smaller motors.
They look real good and have a nice hub.
I'm not sure about how many blades will work best but, it would
be nice to find a nice combination to work for some who don't want to
carve blades out of wood.
Testing, testing and more testing.
Mike
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97fishmt,
Have been studying different Servo specs and found some interesting differences in trying to figure out projected V/RPM ratios.
Servo specs stated example: 400V, 5.4 amps, 1.3KW, 1500rpms
If you take the stated volts (400v) divide that into the (1500)rpms =3.7 rpm s / Volt. Which would give a 15V cut-in =56RPM'S
Now, if you take the stated amp(5.4A) and divide the given power (1.3kw) by the stated amps,= 240Volts = 6.2 RPM/V
15v cut-in would give 94 RPMS.
The cut-in for both figures are quite good for both but, give a pretty good expectation of results. Was wondering if your calculations and experience are are similar?
My point is using simple formulas and taking stated specs for the Servos, there is some differences----- If I'm not making any mistakes in working the formula P= Volts (X) Amps as a way checking / estimating projected output.
Bill
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The numbers on the name plate of a motor are not all the numbers to look at.
If you can find a manufactures data sheet on the motor your looking at,
it will help you figure out how it will work as an alternator.
Here is one with lots of data.
Happy reading. :)
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97fishmt,
Thanks for the reference, I've saved it to evaluate potential servos. I'll look for more on Mfrs. I intend to buy.
I'm getting anxious to receive my parts ordered.
I wanted to order the Powermax low wind 8' blades but, they're out of order. Had to order the 9' model for now. Intentions are to use them on the larger Servo I'm hoping to purchase soon. Any thoughts on using these ?
It has been fun working out potential outputs from units listed online.
thanks ,
Bill
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I have the 8'er. I got the hub modified with a taper lock hub welded on but haven't balanced
the blades yet.
I run a 6'er on a 200 volt 1500 rpm and get 30 amps out of it sometimes.
The blades are a little noisier than carved blades but they are cheap and
they work nicely and should last a long time.
I just got the hub modified for a 13'er and can't wait to get it into action.
Here is the Baldor spec sheet.
Mike
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97fishmt,
Thanks for those references and personal experiences with blades. It's a good feel for me at this stage.
How is that "big motor" project coming along?
Bill
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I'm always playing around at home here in Seattle with wind generator parts and blades,
fooling around with motors and welding up mounts and hubs.
My wind site is at my cabin. I have 3' of snow there now so it might be tough to get the
big blades up there. I'm sure I will try but right now it's by snowmobile. I don't mind walking
in. It depends on work and when I can get away. Soon I hope. The blades sure look nice.
I just finished the hub. Now I need to mount and balance the blades.
I have been running a 10' prop on that big motor and have been getting 80 amps @30 volts,
so it is working pretty good. It sure is fun to make your own power and use it to build more
power producing devices. :)
Take care
Mike
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To all servo users,
I've purchased a Fanuc Servo(red cap) # 10F TYPE AO6B-0351-B731 pulse coder.
Currently have removed the coder from the backside, trying to release /remove the brake assembly. Have found an aluminum "press fit" round plate blocking further disassembly. It looks like the case might have to be split via (4) recessed Allen- head screws, located on the shaft side of the motor.
Question: Are these "Allen screws" metric sizes? My Allen wrench 7/32" doesn't seem to fit correctly. I'm afraid of "rounding out" one or more of these in the process.
I would appreciate any assistance / advice, on the correct process for disabling the brake.
Bill
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How about some pictures?
:)
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Mike,
I'm going to try taking some pix's and see if I can post what I've done. This will be all new to me, posting Pix's. It's a good thing Adam posted a pix of his "brake project," I know it really helped me!
Maybe that will help some new members of the "servo community" that's growing here!
LOL !
Bill
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This sounds interesting
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I cured my boredom today by building another little unit.
Same dimensions as the others. And still some steel leftover. :)
I need more steel for the tail and its fabrication for others, but I might
have enough of the other stuff for 3 more. Not bad for $100.
This is the 3rd one.
I guess I got the bug because I bought another servo motor
on ebay today.
KE 125 (volt/1000rpm)
I just can't let them go if they are cheap. :)
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97 fishmt,
YEP, did it again------ bought another SERVO !
4.4kw, 400v,16A,1500rpm, $200 Just thought the specs looked tooo good !!
Gotta stop looking. Haven't got the first one up--yet
Bill
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That is one to look for! 8)
I love the way it works with an 8' prop on it.
It's the same one I did the story of the 400 volt motor for 24 volt charging on.
( I only paid $40 for mine a few years ago )
I checked out my new motor today. It cuts in @ 24.5 volts after the rectifiers @ 150 rpm.
I need to stop looking too but I keep meeting new folks up at the cabin and it's all I really
talk about so, they end up wanting a turbine after seeing my setup.
I just came home from the cabin. I was trying out some new blades on a small unit and was kind of
disappointed. (raptor blades) I'll just have to keep making my own. Carved blades have
worked the best for me yet.
Mike
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Mike,
Is your new motor a 200v or a 400v motor? Curious because, trying to decide what voltage to use my new 400v Servo on. Do you think I should stay with the 9.2' rotors for that motor, in view of my lower wind speeds?
By the way, now that I'm well into my project, just want to let you know I really am grateful to you and Adam for the support!
Bill ;)
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Mike or Adam,
question about securing the servo "facemount" to the yaw mount. I think I saw your motor secured to the base mount by the bottom 2 holes in the servo. Maybe I missed something there? Don't want to think of it tearing loose, up there!
Planning to copy your mount, but would like to set the bottom plate at a 5 degree tilt up, so the prop has plenty of pole clearance. Believe that the width of the motor will be about the correct off set from the center of the pole. That would be about 5-6" for this first direct drive. Am I in the ball park? (9.2' Rotor planned).
Bill
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Gents,
Has anyone given thought to how these 1000-1500rpm Servos can develop so much more power (1500-4400w) with magnets that are so thin,? It seems that servos produce much more power for their size, visualizing the differences in the two units. I will admit that the PMA's everyone's building are operating at a much lower operating speed (200-500rpm's), producing 700w-1200w of power. Maybe that IS the point ! Oztoules comments, that these servo units will at some point stop increasing power output with increased rpm's. Seems that could work in our favor when faced with very strong gusts or abnormally stronger winds than normally planned for.
Just wondering.
Bill
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Gents,
Has anyone out there found a good resource for the "power connectors" on these Servo motors? I have a both a Fanuc-A06 and a Yaskawa Servo.
Bill
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Yes, it's all been gone over before.
There is a local place for me in Seattle
called connector world.
I placed a link in an old post.
But they are expensive. Lately I have been soldering
on new wires on the pins with 10-12 crimp wire
connectors and just using an abs plumbing
elbow and sealing it up with silicone and electrical tape.
You can find elbows to thread right on to the motor connector.
Less than 2 bucks compared to about $35-$50.
I still buy the connectors for some motors though,
If you go to their web site and order one I bet you
could waterproof a standard connector yourself just
fine rather than buying their waterproof one. It'll run
you over a hundred bucks. :o
Mike
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Thanks mike,
I think making the connection with PVC or electrical connectors is much more sensible vice $$$$$$$ for the Mil Spec. original.
Bill
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Has anyone got any new observations, quirks to share with their Servo installations??
Anyone utilizing the higher RPM's /voltages with Servos and using MPPT charge controllers (like Chris Olsen)?
Just curious what could be achieved going down that road with Servos.
Bill
PS: Still gathering pipe and wire for my own Servo WT ! Got all the rest together now.