Author Topic: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine  (Read 10437 times)

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Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2012, 10:23:43 pm »
On page 268 of the " Homebrew Wind Power " book it does say it's a 3000 or more continuous watt turbine and peaks of double or more are possible from it.

Yes, it's a poor wind site turbine.  It would not survive two weeks here where I live.  They make great power in lower wind speeds because of the swept area, and I suspect that's what drove the Dan's to keep trying to scale them bigger and bigger.  They have thin air at 6,000 feet, which doesn't have much power in it.  And they got turbulence thru the rotor because of the area they live in.

The other extreme is somebody that lives on the plains at 1,500 feet elevation and you can see for 40 miles in every direction.  In Kansas you'd better have a wind turbine that's built like a tank or it won't make it thru its first afternoon.

Most folks live somewhere in between those two extremes.  The folks that have built those and put them on good wind sites have had nothing but problems.
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Chris

Edit:  I guess that can apply to any of the plains states.  In Kansas the standard wind speed indicator is a length of log chain nailed to a fence post.  If the chain is at 45 degrees to the post it's a light spring breeze.  If the chain is standing straight out it means a real wind might pick up later.  But I've been in North Dakota along I94 and US2 where if you stick a wind turbine up 30 feet in the air there's not much between that turbine rotor and the Montana and Canadian borders except wind.

The venerable Jacobs turbines are numerous in the plains states.  And many of them have been running for better than 30 years.

Offline MadScientist267

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2012, 10:32:14 pm »
So, in all fairness then, would you consider it a true statement to say that the opposite applies as well?

A turbine designed for low altitude (pronounced "one of yours") would not perform as well as those designed for higher altitude (similarly, "one of theirs")?

Just curious how that works in terms of the dynamic of the relationship... to me, it's starting to seem that there's no right or wrong, it's what works for the properties of the geographic location one lives in.

How far off am I with this?

Steve


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Offline rossw

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2012, 10:35:01 pm »
They have thin air at 6,000 feet, which doesn't have much power in it.

The other extreme is somebody that lives on the plains at 1,500 feet elevation and you can see for 40 miles in every direction.

<RossBot> Density of 20.0 deg C dry air at 0 feet (1013 hpa) is 1.204 Kg/m^3
<RossBot> Density of 20.0 deg C dry air at 1500 feet (956 hpa) is 1.137 Kg/m^3
<RossBot> Density of 20.0 deg C dry air at 6000 feet (786 hpa) is 0.935 Kg/m^3

Applying those densities to the same turbine (17' DIA) in the same 30 mph wind, with the same generator efficiency (80%) and same coefficient of performance (0.2) sees:

30621.2 watts possible (4899.4 watts output)
28917.2 watts possible (4626.7 watts output)
23779.7 watts possible (3804.8 watts output)

That doesn't make any allowance for turbulence etc.

Offline Watt

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2012, 10:40:42 pm »
So, in all fairness then, would you consider it a true statement to say that the opposite applies as well?

A turbine designed for low altitude (pronounced "one of yours") would not perform as well as those designed for higher altitude (similarly, "one of theirs")?

Just curious how that works in terms of the dynamic of the relationship... to me, it's starting to seem that there's no right or wrong, it's what works for the properties of the geographic location one lives in.

How far off am I with this?

Steve

It appears this way to me as well Steve.  Where this turbine is located, approximately 2250ft and fair wind conditions, the only troubles I seem to notice, again self-made, come from stalling at around cut-in.  This is more so dependent on battery bank voltage and the worst when the bank is around 50% SOC or lower. 

I'm trying to build a 14.5' for my residence which I am in hopes to prevent runaway as well as control with a classic.  We will see.  He He....

I know it may appear I question Chris, but in reality, I am trying to understand what Chris has already determined and shares. 
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Offline Watt

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2012, 10:44:02 pm »
They have thin air at 6,000 feet, which doesn't have much power in it.

The other extreme is somebody that lives on the plains at 1,500 feet elevation and you can see for 40 miles in every direction.

<RossBot> Density of 20.0 deg C dry air at 0 feet (1013 hpa) is 1.204 Kg/m^3
<RossBot> Density of 20.0 deg C dry air at 1500 feet (956 hpa) is 1.137 Kg/m^3
<RossBot> Density of 20.0 deg C dry air at 6000 feet (786 hpa) is 0.935 Kg/m^3

Applying those densities to the same turbine (17' DIA) in the same 30 mph wind, with the same generator efficiency (80%) and same coefficient of performance (0.2) sees:

30621.2 watts possible (4899.4 watts output)
28917.2 watts possible (4626.7 watts output)
23779.7 watts possible (3804.8 watts output)

That doesn't make any allowance for turbulence etc.

So...

RossBot, does that mean about 25% less power for them as one would see at sea level on a 20c day?
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Offline tomw

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2012, 10:47:09 pm »
Dan lives nearer to 8,000 feet than 6,000.

Thin air.

Tom

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Offline rossw

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2012, 10:54:30 pm »

So...

RossBot, does that mean about 25% less power for them as one would see at sea level on a 20c day?

Yes.

And thanks Tom - updating the above:

<RossBot> Density of 20.0 deg C dry air at 8000 feet (711 hpa) is 0.845 Kg/m^3
21490.8 watts possible (3438.5 watts output)

So just air density alone, we go from just shy of 5kW to just shy of 3.5kW output from the same machine....

Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2012, 10:55:02 pm »
A turbine designed for low altitude (pronounced "one of yours") would not perform as well as those designed for higher altitude (similarly, "one of theirs")?

The venerable RossBot already answered this with great precision.  The answer is "absolutely".  Take one of my turbines out to the Dan's site and throw it up and it'll sit there idling on the tower in a 30 mph breeze wondering when the wind is going to pick up.

At high elevation you need to swing a little more meat to get power.

This is where geared turbines really shine.  Plant my 3.2 meter at 8,000 feet and all you have to do is swap out the 10 foot rotor for a 13 and throw some taller gears in 'er.   :)
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Offline Watt

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2012, 11:20:40 pm »
A turbine designed for low altitude (pronounced "one of yours") would not perform as well as those designed for higher altitude (similarly, "one of theirs")?

The venerable RossBot already answered this with great precision.  The answer is "absolutely".  Take one of my turbines out to the Dan's site and throw it up and it'll sit there idling on the tower in a 30 mph breeze wondering when the wind is going to pick up.

At high elevation you need to swing a little more meat to get power.
--
Chris

It would be awesome for someone who has a properly built " not plans " from the Dans Homebrew 17'er to chime-in giving data from sea level and good winds. 
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Offline Dale S

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2012, 08:36:29 pm »
I guess that'd be me, basically the 17' Dans machine is mediocre at best, my site is a fair wind site but for the size of the swept area it is an under performer and really only shines in a vary narrow wind speed range, from 20 mph to 25 mph where it starts to furl, that's why I have a geared machine on the build stand right now, I'm tired of seeing Chris's little pinwheels making my 17' machine look like the toy in the group, in this case size don't matter.
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Offline Watt

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Re: 180 volt 3.2 meter turbine
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2012, 11:54:20 pm »
I guess that'd be me, basically the 17' Dans machine is mediocre at best, my site is a fair wind site but for the size of the swept area it is an under performer and really only shines in a vary narrow wind speed range, from 20 mph to 25 mph where it starts to furl, that's why I have a geared machine on the build stand right now, I'm tired of seeing Chris's little pinwheels making my 17' machine look like the toy in the group, in this case size don't matter.

Do you mind sharing some of the performance(less) statistics for your machine with us?  Are you direct connected to your battery group?  What battery voltage do you have?  You are just who I've been looking for for details.  Thanks for sharing what you can.
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