Author Topic: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part1 transformer  (Read 24933 times)

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Offline Dr_Zogg

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hi oz i have started up a new thread about modding a couple of powerjacks and could use your help if you don't mind
cheers :D
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Offline ClockmanFrance

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A Big Thank You to oztules, for getting me this far.  :)

My Oz' Inverter gently came to LIFE yesterday evening with a bench test down at my Power Station Building/Shed where my 1100ah 48v 2 tons of batteries and control equipment live.

Here's a photo with 4.8kW of load after 30 minutes, the meter is showing battery voltage.

4304-0

Load reads 230vac, No load is 235vac, HZ at 50HZ.

Primary wires get warm see Temp gauge, the closest heat sink in the photo gets the warmest see temp.

The PJ Fan comes on and off at the correct time.

The Ecore/choke gently hums, yes its superglued, in fact it hums more than the toroid does.

Main cores are 2 off 190mm diameter, 90mm hole and both at 60mm thick giving me a 120mm thickness.
4 secondary windings of 1.8mm dia at 118 turns. Primary is 50/mm2 14 turns in the core.
Toroid total finished weight is 32kg.

15kW Power Jack boards.

On Off switch for the Boards on mine is, NOW CORRECTED, Pin 11 to Pin 13.

[ Specified attachment is not available ]

Again a Big Thanks to oztules for his knowledge and help, and his kind words of encouragement, thanks.
 






Offline oztules

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[ Specified attachment is not available ]Very good batteries.... still 50v after 30 mins of 100 amps is good in my world.

Only one thing to niggle...... for the sake of other folks, it would be useful to label the start pins as 11 and 13... not 8 and 10...... notice the numbers on the PCb are in the opposite direction to that you have used... ie 20 is closest to the main chip, and 1 is near the power supply... I know it is pickky, but it may cause a confusion for someone some where some time.... Your post will be referenced elsewhere on the net... and without the photo, would be a disaster.

OK that aside...very  well done. 8)

The temp is pretty good for that power for that time with no real air movement near the tranny. I use a push and pull fan ( one either end) for the heat sinks, with a dedicated fan circuit... their fan never comes on........ I don't like their settings. My heat sinks hold at 30-35C for most of the heavy parts of the day ( hot water etc for a few hours plus normal house useage ). My fans are speed controlled , and at near 25c they turn on slowly, and remain silent until near 30c.... but this slower rpm range moves air around the interior of the case, and this helps to keep the whole thing cool, without actually hearing any fans until the temp gets to 30c. The spill cools the transfromer, which can get up to 50-55c under prolonged heavy use ( hours).

Your start jumpers scare the life out of me, as pin 11 is at full battery potential, and any mishap to other pins nearby ( except 12 and 13) may inject wicked voltage into places you would rather not see it.... at least 8 or more of those pins go direct to the main chip... and anything over 5v will be fatal to the control card.

To say I'm pleased to see your work running is an understatement... well done...

I still find it amazing just how good those cards work... and the tranny.

Now you know why we epoxied the tranny, it's quieter than your superglued and plastic suppressed ecore... pretty flash for near 5kw. Don't mind it in the same room even.

Just noticed you say 235v@60hz...... 60hz.... did you order the wrong control card??? or is that a typo. I thought 60hz was what you really didn't want.......

I'm impressed........oztules

A quickie I did for another fellow...

EDIT......this has been updated
4453-1
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline ClockmanFrance

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Yes , My Mistake, late nights.   I have changed the photo to show PINS 11 and 13, and I will put some leads and a nice switch on those 2 pins.

Yes typo error, 60HZ on the Brain nowadays.       I am 50 HZ, but noticed that my simple meter was struggling with HZ readings when that 4.8kW load was on.
But the HZ was still okay as the washing machine and microwave were running sweet as a button.

Offline oztules

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May need hf filter on the 240v outputs to get rid of all the switching noise.
For the meter to not track properly I assume it is an auto ranging meter... they are a pain if there are any harmonics around, or the fundamental is not very  very clear.

The lack of shielding ( spread across the desks ) will allow a lot of RF radiation too at high power, and these frequencies will range up to and over 20khz... a big filter will help control this when it is in a metal box.... keeps the hash inside...


..............oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline ClockmanFrance

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Normally I can not get on this AnotherPower Forum as the French Authorities, Orange, Nordnet etc, for some reason block access. So I am using a Proxy Server from USA.

Thanks about the HF filter, any recommendations please? .
 Also good quality Cooling fans, ? as I am not sure about those 2 spare PJ's I have. I am fitting a temperature switch unit as well as leaving that PJ 3 wire fan connected in to keep the PJ control board happy.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261735347690?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

4318-0

I am a simple sole with not much knowledge of HF filters, except I did install a filter plug unit on my HiFi Amp.

I have a Metal enclosure 600mm high, 400mm wide and 300mm in depth, so everything will fit inside in a neat and tidy way.   Although, at 40kgs I might have to weld up a angle bracket with struts, as the box fits to a wall.

As I am a newbie here Not sure about the next paragraph.........

Blast, Fieldlines is off line for nearly 2 days now, and I would like to correct the Pin 11 & Pin 13 mistake on my photo that you mentioned/spotted. Plus I normally copy and paste the topic into a Word document so I can get my construction booklet together for my eldest boy, he's studying RE technology at college, then he can carry this project on.....

.. Shhh, but really..... as I get older my brain seems to leak and I forget stuff.

 The last post I copied and paste, was the 31st July the Cat one.

Thanks.
PS, Yes , you are right those PJ Power boards and control board sure are magic. Anything that you think needs modification before I install into my cabinet.?

Offline oztules

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Cooling fans...

That needs some discussion for these boards.

I use beecroft ball bearing fans 5". They are good value for money, and i like the ball bearings too. The following pics depict the fan I use, and how to put a 2k2 resistor onto the circuit board so we can get a pulse to replicate what the board expects for the tacho readings.

Without the tacho readings, the board will assume fan failure and shut down.
It won't do this straight away, it is when it looks for the fan, or the temp sensor tells it it is hot, then it looks for it.... if it cant find it, we stop.

So pic one ... the beecroft
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Now we remove the stick on disk on the rear, and we find the circuit board under neath... a careful solder with the 2k2 resistor and shrink wrap, and we now have a 3 pin fan with plus, minus and tacho.

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This will allow those who just want to use the boards as they are supposed to be used........


But...
For the rebels.....
Next how to control it..

That image you posted of the temp switch is fine, but I prefer to use a gradual driver, not a bang bang..... I need to live/work in the same space too sometimes... and a fan on.... fan off does not do it for me... so we build this for a few cents.

4322-2

This has two pots, one for the ramp rate, and one for step off temperature setting... the temp one is marked temp, the ramp rate is the other... devilishly cunning really...

So we can bang bang it if we use no neg feedback/ramp, and as we add feedback we start to make a ramp up to the top speed.... so as the temp approaches the set point, the fan will start turning, and disturbing the still air, if thats enough then good... if not then the temp will rise, but so too will the fan speed, until it gets to full speed if it cant stop the temp going past the set point with lower speeds... its simple as..not very often are they running full speed.

I use two fans, and they have no tacho needed... so no conversion on them. They push pull the main heatsinks.

I use a tiny fan with the tacho wire to fool the board... it never needs to come on anyway.

It is wise to still use the temp sense they supply as is where is... so if your fan techniques fail for some reason, it will turn off from over temp and save the day.

We can get the 12v for the fans from the front two pin socket. It will run two fans comfortably.

Here are half a dozen being built for this and other projects.

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Just the pins and odds and ends to add.


The noise... This is the sort of thing we want.... a dual filter.
It has capacitor, torroid, capacitor, torroid, and capacitor.

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These are too small, but the ones from the aero sharp 3kw units are fine doubled up for 40 amps.
Plenty on ebay in various guises..... look for EMI filter. You may need a few to get the current rating. I see a few from china 20A fir 10 AUD... four fo these series parallel would be fine. They are single stage, so one after another will be ok, and doubled up in parallel to get the40amp rating we need.

Perhaps try these...

[ Specified attachment is not available ]



....................oztules
PS somehow the pics are all queer at the end ... I can't get the pic to display properly

Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline ClockmanFrance

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Thanks oztules for the information.

For the time being I will try my bang bang arrangement on the two new fans in series with that adjustable settable temp meter of mine. I have a separate independent 24v supply in my enclosure.

I like your fan speed to heat rise arrangement.

Filters, thanks for that, not sure on backfeeding implications with the filters when I am getting power from the AC Coupling?

I seem to have made  a write old mess on the Fieldlines Forum, everything is now out of time sync, as its not possible to re-edit ones posts after 15 minutes.......

Offline rossw

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mess on the Fieldlines Forum.

It's been a mess for a long time. Incompetence drove most of it, lost posts, scrambled posts, admins that couldn't admin, owners that didn't care... I'm surprised it's still running TBH.

Offline ClockmanFrance

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Hi oztules,

I have been thinking about the cooling fans and the situation in my Enclosure box.

I believe your circuit that regulates the speed of the fans to the temperature is going to be a lot more gentle on things and be more effective in the long term.

However, looking at your 6 circuit boards, I am starting to drool........ the components bits I think I can get, but I could do with a bit more info on the TR that drives the Fans please?.  And what heat sensors are you using? I could rob one from those 3v temperature gauges I got?

Will your PCB be available,? ...........my PCB making stuff, just looked, is dodgy to say the least, and goodness knows where my mask/stop material has gone.
Probably revert to breadboard......

Offline oztules

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I used IFRB4110 fet as i had a heap of them next to me, but any fet will do, small heat sink wont hurt but not mandatory.
I don't sell anything, but can send you one if you need to do that, you have suffered enough... however, you are better off just bread boarding one, or using Kinsten board, already has the positive emulsion coating, and then only needs a mask.

I used to use transparency and laser printer, but never could get modern printers to work properly with the transparency... now use a cheap $40 inkjet, print to A4 normal copy paper...... then olive oil spread over the paper to make it transparent, and then place on Kinsten, put under flouro desk lamp for 25 mins at 3" distance from board to flouro.

Then use NaOh or caustic sode or lye or whatever they call it over there in France to develop the pattern... will need a fine brush or sponge to help wipe the oil and sacrificial emulsion off.

I now use HCl (  hydrochloric acid , myratic acid, brick cleaning  stuff, plumbers soldering fluid or swimming pool ph adjuster etc.... ) mixed with copper sulphate.
Not as messy as ferric chloride, just need oxidation between uses to revitalise it... very cheap and easy to get hold of.... chemist or plant nursery will have the copper sulphate. ( I got 25kg sack free from next door farmer... last 100 lifetimes)

The controlboard is very much superior from every aspect. I strongly recommend it. It will keep things cooler quieter, and everything will last longer... for about a dollars worth of components.

Note on fans.... blowing onto heat sink is infinately more effective then just evacuating the box with fans, Air directed onto a warm surface is much much much better, than an exhaust fan... so use push pull ... one to push air directly into the cavity between heat sinks, and one at the other end trying to create a low pressure area at the far end of the heat sink so the pusher has the best chance of keeping a decent velocity all the way through the center. We want to cool the capacitors just as much or more than the fets. Fets will stand a much higher temp than will caps for long life....so we keep the caps as cool as possible too. Thats where this control card really does it's stuff. It will silently try to keep the temp lower than the step off point the PJ would start.

Hopefully the PJ fan will not start at all unless we are squeezing 3kw or more for extended run times.... even then unlikely if you push pull. I have not seen over 35c yet, so the PJ has never started it's little 40mm fan I use to satisfy the controller.

...................oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline ClockmanFrance

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Thanks 'oztules', as this is just a one off, for the time being! gulp....... bread board it is.

Sometime today I will disappear into my workshop and dive into all my electronics stuff, racks and racks of stuff, untouched for 20 odd years, and I could be gone days............... :D  and see what I have.......

 Thanks about your wise words about the cooling, push pull it is on those PJ Heat sinks.......

What do you use as the temp probe from your circuit? could I use those on these ?..........

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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251637079552?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Bare with me 'oztules,' for me it's all Virgin territory again, thanks for your understanding.

Offline oztules

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Yes they are fine, and so are these..

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10pcs-Thermistor-Temperature-Sensor-NTC-MF52-103-3435-10K-ohm-5-DIY-New-/191204294415?hash=item2c84a9ff0f

I buy them by the hundred for only a few dollars............. if you look hard... ntc 10k@25c... will work fine.

It was only a quick circuit to test the fans... but seems to work fine.

The first pot ( that says temp) sets temp, and the second one sets the negative feedback, and so makes the set point very fuzzy, and acts as a ramp for the temp. As we increase the pot, the feedback decreases, and so the set point becomes sharper. Full resistance will get it to near bang bang territory, and low resistance setting will make it a very sloppy set point, effectively making it ramp up to the set point, as hard or as soft as you want it to be. A higher R pot will increase the sharpenss further if you want.

................oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline Dr_Zogg

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hi Oz,
i have been flat out lately but finally have some time to do some work on my inverters. I will update my thread tonight or maybe in the morning.
just have a quick question for you. would it be possible for me to get a copy of the protel file for the fan controller board?

cheers and thanks for the help.
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