Anotherpower.com Forum
Project Journals => User Journals => Wolvenar => Topic started by: Wolvenar on February 23, 2012, 10:32:42 pm
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This Jorunal will document my build as I go along
Today I ordered (3) 240watt panels
Too bad my budget was limited,
I had planned 6 but recent events caused us to use some of the funds we reserved for this project.
Now I really had problems when deciding to order this odd number.
It leaves me with a problem with the output voltage.
I cannot parallel two of a series of two. (~60v)
In a series of three (~90v)
I have to change what I planned as a controller as once you add in the voltage hike that a cold Minnesota winter can cause..
I could wind up going over the controllers max voltage.
Those Midnight 250's are looking better all the time
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I got four of those 30 volt panels on a Classic 150
--
Chris
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As part of my upgrades to get ready for the PV, I was moving my inverter and battery bank to the new attached garage.
All was going as expected, until I got to the very rear most bank of 4.
None of my connections had corrosion.... but one.. And of course I did not get images of that.
Worse, it was so bad it had completely disconnected that bank, and its been this way for at least 4 months through the worst of Minnesota winter.
The batteries appear to have frozen, they are bulging, and the one has a post raised.. Not good.
I tested voltages, and the surprising part was that they had anyhting, let alone all within about .02v of each other.
Bad part was, they only had ~5.96v
So they were topped off with distilled water, and individually connected to a 6v charger.
Each would draw approx 12 amps individually, so I banked them in 2x series and parallel to charge at 12v overnight.
Today sometime I will setup the charger to equalize and see how things go after that.
They are 9 years old now I guess, so it could be worse. I got them less than a month after they were shipped from the manufacturer.
Sorry for te poor images, this is the best I could get at night in a snow storm
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=19951&g2_serialNumber=2)
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=19955&g2_serialNumber=2)
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Well I don't know how I lucked out on this one, but the batteries are alive and seem to preform surprisingly well
after that top off and equalizing charge.
After almost 14 hours after the charge, I put a short draw on them to be sure there is no residual surface charge.
Outcomes
Battery Voltage
1 6.45 (not sure why this is so high compared to the rest)
2 6.34
3 6.33
4 6.33
I hooked up the inverter with 3 300 watt halogens on it and let it run for 30 min
and the battery voltages didn't change all that much .. down about .15 volt pretty evenly across them all.
Specific gravity of each cell were all in agreement...
.
Not bad for such old and recently neglected batteries I guess, really got lucky I think.
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Finaly got them ;D
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20023&g2_serialNumber=5)
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20035&g2_serialNumber=2)
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20041&g2_serialNumber=2)
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20047&g2_serialNumber=2)
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20048&g2_serialNumber=1)
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Sweet 8)
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Sweet 8)
Very! ;D
G-
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Yes they are neat....have fun!
Norm.
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I wish they were mine.:-)
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More charge controller pics
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20028&g2_serialNumber=1)
Inside
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20032&g2_serialNumber=2)
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Are there any problems with making a temp wood solid mount system for these pv panels.
It would only be used until I have enough metal scrounged up to build something more proper?
I'm itching to get them set up.
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i say go for it! if it's only temporary, i wouldn't even use PT wood. with standard uncoated hem/fir studs it would still probably last 3+ years if built well.
stop the itch, and get some amps flowing!
adam
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I found nothing wrong with fixed timber.... and some steel to keep the wind away.
I believe you clamp them rather than bolt them, to allow the timber to flex a bit without distorting the panels.
Mine is rock solid.... but still I used clamping steels for the fixing to the frame.
[attachimg=1]
................oztules
edit and it's one and a half time bigger now.... with no more power bills. The cost of power went up over here last month to 25c/kwh flat rate no off peak etc..... last bill was nil
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HI Oztules,
Could go into further details about the panel mount system you have?
Thanks!
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I'll try to remember to take a pic tomorrow for you.
It's just a heap of 4x4 posts nailed together with 4x2's... nothing exciting.
Some treated pine on the front top and bottom to timber screw the bent steel clamps ( replace with S/steel or Al when i find some over here), old iron around the sides. Very rigid and tackles the massive winds over here without a problem... it's rock solid.
I would dearly like to have built Rossw style racks, but I don't trust the wind here. The design of this sheds the wind, and the panels see very very little of it.
Cheaper to build more panels than build a weather proof rack. (fixed vs tracking).
..............oztules
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Ordered a bunch of amp meters the other day for the panels.
It was ebay order shipped from China, wonder how good/accurate they will turn out.
US $3.53 each, and $.38 shipping
Ebay DESCRIPTION :
Brand new and high quality!
TYPE : Analog Current Meter
Scale Range : DC 20A
Accuracy : Class 2.5
Size : about 63 mm x 54 mm x 58 mm
http://tinyurl.com/7l8owxm (http://tinyurl.com/7l8owxm)
Image from the listing
(http://www.thankyouverymuch.info/ebaye/galleries/heavenstores/6354-1.jpg)
It appears this seller may have something to do with the company listed here
http://http://www.hktdc.com/manufacturers-suppliers/Shenzhen-SHX-Electronics-Co-Ltd/en/1X0640V5/
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With shunts, internal, external or what?
Tom
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I bought a dozen of them a few years back.... have worked flawlessly thus far. Internal shunt Tom.
They are accurate enough for analogue stuff.
..............oztules
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Philb
As promised, here are the sordid details of the "rack mounts"..... and I use the term very loosely.
It is a simple A frame built from timber I scrounged up from a 50 year old wool shed we pulled down from down the road a ways.
Inside shot tells it all:
[attachimg=1]
Materials on an island this sparse is tough, so I found some shelf racking, straightened it to flat, then rebent to a clamp of sorts.
When I can find some Al or SSteel strip, I will replace them. (it will turn up somewhere)
[attachimg=2]
A pic of the current arrangement:
[attachimg=3]
and the rear of it with the power shed I built for the power components (cinder block)
[attachimg=4]
It's rough as always, but works very well..
................oztules
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Thanks Oztules!
I see a lot of hard work there. You used your resources at hand to make something good from bits and pieces.
Looks like aluminum frames in your pics. Are they also from bits you picked up?
Wolv - the meters looked so good, I had to order 5. Thanks for the post!
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Very good work.
May I suggest you paint a white bulls eye on the ground several hundred metres distant with a sign saying 'meteors' land here please.
You never know.
David in HK
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Oz -
From the looks of it, you have plenty more room there... After watching this grow for the past couple years or so, I figure you'll hit the MW range by oh, 2015? :D
Steve
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Making slow progress. But hard to do this with a busy schedule, and this darn addiction to IRC and RE sites ::)
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20142&g2_serialNumber=1)
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20141&g2_serialNumber=2)
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that looks great Wolv! the one problem i see, is that disconnect upp left isn't nearly large enough ;)
seriously, though, you're obviously getting very close!
nice work, very clean.
adam
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Believe it or not that is an old style 3 phase 400 amp disconnect / fuse box, but yeah its only good for 320 amp continuous.
This inverter can only peak at 7200 watt for brief periods of time (300 amp), 3600 watt continuous (150 amp), but that is plenty for most of our every day stuff. It should do ok.
I have found DC rated fuses that fit, but hope I don't go through many, they are rather expensive. Supposed to be meant to suppress an arc, but have had a couple dire warnings that these don't quite do it.
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20153&g2_serialNumber=2)
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I might add, between that disconnect and the inverter, I am awfully glad that's a good strong wall. Both are fairly heavy.
I am also very glad I had one of these laying around that are SPENDY even used
Though its a bit newer
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wolv- yea, i yard big ol' disconnects out of commercial buildings all the time as electrical updates happen. i always keep them, as i know they're expensive new, and you can still get fuses for ones made in the 1930s. i used an old 1950s model as the short switch for my wind turbine (not fused). it works beautifully, and has a very positive throw action. very robust.
my favorite (not sure what they're called) have an eloborate set of springs and hinges built into them. they have two buttons (on/off) and it feels like when you hit either button it would be somehow powered with the throws, yet it's all mechanical. they're pretty rad.
still though, that disconnect is WAY too small! :)
adam
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Yeah those spring ones are to try to limit the arc I believe, fun stuff.
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Tom yes it is an internal shunt
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20169&g2_serialNumber=1)
I got the amp meters today, really shocked how fast it was. When I opened the first box the back covering over the shunt was off. Not surprising, this meter also does not work, the needle seems stuck as it does not float at all as you move the unit. I only have had time to check a couple others, but they appear ok.
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One more step, going at this really slow, just not finding much time.
Slow, but I am trying to get at least one thing a day done.
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20171&g2_serialNumber=1)
Inverter to disconnect setup now.
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Well some time at junkyards turned up a frame used that was covered in tin. I am not sure what it was meant for originally but I was told it came from a local factory. It's very close to the dimensions I need with little reworking.
The large heavy square tube in the image was part of an axle from a very large drag that had been cut up at the junkyard.
Sorry the image is terrible, I took this with nothing more than the area lights from across the yard.
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20180&g2_serialNumber=2)
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Update, in case anyone is wondering if I have made any progress,
I have a solar tracker frame 3/4 build now ( rather heady duty bugger)
As I am not at all impressed with the frames on these panels I will be making multiple connections from the panel frames to the tracker frame. Besides most of it was already built when I found it. almost a perfect fit, just needs a bit of extension.
The weather has been stormy, or threatening to be so for the last 3 days, so its been little do no progress.
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Maybe it will move on.
I watch this thread with a-lot of interest.
Good training for me.
Kenneth
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I decided against the tracker until I can get an MPPT, and mount these in a place that best benefits from the tracker.
Right now I would lose a large amount of power as its almost 150 foot run to the best location and with a simple charge controller I am pretty much forced into the 24v the controller will clamp the panels to.
With a good MPPT I can run these ~34 v nominal in series reducing the amperage, and requiring a bit lesser wire cost also.
So for now I have solid mounted these on the garage roof where there is only a ~15' wire run, using 12 gauge wire from each panel. I made time to get one up early on wed, all day Thursday I saw 10-11 amps from that one panel
I verified this with a couple different meters including my digital hand held I do normally trust, as I could not believe it!
This is 3-4 amps more than rated..
So as that was busy making power I got another one put along side of it, and though that didn't get the chance during the already early afternoon sun to strut its stuff, I saw 9 amps from this ( which is what the other was doing at that time too)
I read here and other places all the time about getting more out of panels than rated, but that is generally when matched to an MPPT, or some other really lucky setup like that.. I haven't seen anyone ever boast THIS much more than rating with just a charge controller...
..
Anyone think I have gone mad, or have some explanation, or am I just damned lucky?
Today ( friday) the weather was ick rain-misty-dull (not complaining, we need it )
But still I saw a couple times while I was home around noon a 2 or so amps from each panel.
I have one more to get up there but finding time is always my problem lately.
I will post pics later, I completely forgot to take any while fighting the wind
and a painful knee climbing up and down a ladder.
The next time the sun comes out I will get some pics of the gauges at work too
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Started putting together box with meters, fuses, power adapters, controls, etc
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20409&g2_serialNumber=2)
front panel
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20412&g2_serialNumber=2)
Rear of panel
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20415&g2_serialNumber=2)
Front close up..
As you can see from the images, this thing got hot trying to drill.
I had cutting oil and it cut really quick, but got HOT *really fast*
This metal is seriously hard stuff, didn't expect it to be this hard when I decided to use this.
Plan to add switch under each of the fuses so I can disconnect each panel.
This works at least for now while the panels are on the garage roof.
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Made some more time to work on this today.
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20455&g2_serialNumber=1)
Even with this tungston carbide the metal was hard to drill
Just wont find boxes made like that these days I bet.
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20463&g2_serialNumber=2)
Setup in drill.. now I just had to track done one of the kids to help with the cooling :)
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=20460&g2_serialNumber=2)
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that looks great wolv!
looks like an ammeter and fuse per panel? your making me want to redesign my system! it's all shabbed together as of current.
certain steel types can be a pain to drill through! thank god it's not stainless! that can be the worst. stop your drill for a break, and the stainless hardens from the cooling!
keep on keeping on buddy!
adam
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For a while now I have been trying to figure out why I seem to consistently get a lot more power out of my panels than they are labeled for.
Well thanks to RossW that mystery seems to be solved.
Ok here are the specs as sold ( as pictured and in the pdf above )
Physical Dimensions
39.1” x 64.6” x 1.8”/994 x 1640 x 46 mm
Electrical Characteristics
Maximum Power (Pmax)* 240 W
Tolerance of Pmax 0%/5%
Type of Cell Polycrystalline silicon
Cell Confi guration 60 in series
Open Circuit Voltage (Voc) 37.5 V
Maximum Power Voltage (Vpm) 29.3 V
Short Circuit Current (Isc) 8.75 A
Maximum Power Current (Ipm) 8.19 A
Module Effi ciency (%) 14.7%
Maximum System (DC) Voltage 600 V
Series Fuse Rating 15 A
NOCT 47.5°C
Temperature Coeffi cient (Pmax) -0.485%/°C
Temperature Coeffi cient (Voc) -0.36%/°C
Temperature Coeffi cient (lsc) 0.053%/°C
Well I have been getting 11-12 amps consistently out of each panel with short bursts to much more than that.
So Ross and I have been talking this one out, and I lost a bit more hair trying to figure out how I have something messed up in my wiring so I was reading it wrong..
Turns out I am not reading it wrong, I more likely have mislabeled panels!
I certainly wont complain about this particular mislabeling though
Here is a rough measure of the panels in reality
45.5" x 64.5"
<RossBot> 3 feet 9.5 inches is 1.2 m (43.5")
<RossBot> 5 feet 4.5 inches is 1.6 m (64.5")
And as Ross worked out with Rossbot
RossW> !calc 1.92*.15
[22:53] <RossBot> .2880
[22:53] <RossW> looks to me like that is a 288 watt panel, near enough.
Now I should look up who I bought those from and see if he has more !!
Nice to have things work in my favor this time.
Thanks for helping sort that out Ross
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i could have sworn you writing about 285 or 295w panels in the past??? am i tripping?
i did the same thing not too long ago... thought i ordered 215 watters and ACTUALLY bought 245w panels...
how soon we forget??
adam
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If you look in earlier posts on this thread there are actually images of the specs that are on the back of each panel..
Which are obviously NOT what they really are.
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I have been in awe of how solar power tends to add up. A LOT more than I had imagined it would.
I know I have mentioned it before but I just gotta say it again.. ;D
This site runs on 100% solar power these days.
I have it setup so if the batteries were to get to low, a charge circuit comes on to keep the batteries alive until the sun comes out again. So far that charging system only has a couple hours racked up and that was only on the first few days or so before I sorted some battery issues.
For 24/7 loads
I now have a couple 8 port switches, the system that runs this web site (it does a lot of other things too), a muti-dish dish network switch ( and LNBFs),
a laptop (which I am on now), a small fridge, an incubator, and the computer interfaces and controls for the climate control and home automation
The garage lighting, along with our entire master bedroom, which has very little as far as power consuming devices, just a 32 inch LCD tv that gets maybe 30 min a night but adds some phantom load if I forget to shut off the power strip.
I also have been running most every power tool in the shop off this setup in the daytime. As of today our well also is powered from this system. I will have to keep an eye on this to see how that goes as the well serves a second house as well as ours. My feeling is this will be to much for the system, particularily on days like today where it was all overcast and rainy.
As long as I keep my heavy loads to sunny daytime hours it seems I have more than enough power to play with.
From what I have seen, these panels quite often put out near 900 watt when there is enough demand and sun to make it happen.
I know I am lacking a LOT of battery capacity yet but I am more and more impressed with this little setup every day, glad I am in good company with birdhouse (http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,461.msg4214.html#msg4214) and strider (http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,461.msg4581.html#msg4581)
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Cool!
"As long as I keep my heavy loads to sunny daytime hours it seems I have more than enough power to play with."
Yup, use it while its there to use.
Not sure how much cordless stuff you have, how heavily it is used, etc.
Could use a ghurd controller with the hysteresis somewhere between dump load and LVD.
With resistor RX of 12K, should give about 0.3V (or a bit more) of hysteresis.
Adjust the voltage window to maybe 13.90V On, 13.58V Off?
RX of 8.2K would be a litte bigger window / more hysteresis / less cycling.
Ghurd controller controls a relay, which sends AC power to a power strip, which charges drill batteries, digital camera, laptops, cell phone, etc?
Ta Da!
Automated "use it while you got it" circuit.
G-
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I'm glad things are coming together Wolv! Very impressive.
I have 4 panels, 235 watts each, on a flat roof now and they keep eight 6 volt batteries on float from about 10 am even on cloudy days. Gotta put more loads on them.
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yea! wolv, stoked this forum is "run from the sun"!
I have been in awe of how solar power tends to add up. A LOT more than I had imagined it would.
have you seen the two decks i built from 390w of solar??
it's a really keen feeling!
adam
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Thanks guys for the praise.
@birdhouse
Yep I have Adam, , glad I am in good company with birdhouse (http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,461.msg4214.html#msg4214) and strider (http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,461.msg4581.html#msg4581)
@Ghurd
I threw together a crude circuit similar to your controller that runs the charge circuit for now.
I already run a pc that I plan to make use of as much processor time as sensible to make it worth it's draw since there is rather little difference in wattage use. I have found a couple ebay items from china that have volt meters and relay controls on a single board that I plan to put to use for just that idea. I had done this some time ago with a wind genny, and UPS based power system. Difference is I had easy access to voltage monitoring via serial port on the UPS in that setup.
I really cannot tell you how well that system produced power as I really didn't monitor anything of use in that department, or have any data I did have left to base any estimates. I still don't have that monitoring today, but I am working on that problem
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It pays to have electrician friends.
He has been working a job that he got some "tails" from, generally these are sold for their copper costs, but he *gifted* me a bunch for my needs.
500MCM copper cable
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=21195&g2_serialNumber=2)(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=21198&g2_serialNumber=2)
(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=21204&g2_serialNumber=2)(http://gallery.anotherpower.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=21207&g2_serialNumber=2)
Here is comparison with the old wire
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Nice pipes you got there. Shouldn't have any problems with the juice leaking out of them for quite some time, huh?
Just uh, one thing... Make sure you remove the tape measure before you open the main valves. ;D
Steve
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I've known for some time I was under what I should have for wire feed from the battery banks. only 2 2-gauge per pole.
But I fused it accordingly and rarely ever stress the limits,
Mostly just don't have the battery capacity to do such for any length of time, and really the decided on normal loads are way under the current capacity.
This is WAY bigger than I need ( just how I like it)
Troubles I see coming though is that the lugs I will need are probably going to be way to big for the panel.