Author Topic: 3.2 meter ferrite magnet MPPT wind turbine  (Read 74629 times)

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Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 3.2 meter ferrite magnet MPPT wind turbine
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2012, 08:11:06 pm »

     I'm laughing reading why your not using the 222 s . At first  I thought you didn't think 222s were up to mppt do to performance limits !!

Jarrod, I'm not saying it can't be done.  Just that it's not a good choice.  The blades DO have to be able to track wind speed quite well, and the GOE222's are better suited to low TSR.  It's hard to capture 35 or 36% of the wind power flowing thru the swept area with low TSR blades.

Note to DaveB:
You know - the more I think about your method of emergency power control for GOE222's, the more I like it better than this variable pitch BS, or throwing a rope at the turbine to try to tangle it and stop it.

Why not just build the tower with a EPRS (Emergency Power Reduction System) right in it?  If you have a runaway in the Big Wind and your GOE222's get away from you, Standard Procedure is to rush out to the tower and pull the EPRS Actuator Cable.  This causes a huge spring loaded saw blade to swing out from the tower and whack 3 to 4 feet off the turbine blades.

That would be really cool    ;D
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Offline Dave B.

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Re: 3.2 meter ferrite magnet MPPT wind turbine
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2012, 09:50:05 pm »
  My 18' ended up as patched up 16' wall art. The crack against the tower echoed through the trees behind me like a shot. Those blades were way too flexible for the amount of clearance I had to the tower and especially at high speed and quick yawing. I figured a couple feet was plenty, I bet for a 9' blade it could have flexed 3'. Flexing without breaking might be a good thing but not if they hit the tower.

  The blades I threw the towel at were my own 12' I carved and were on the 10' test tower. Funny how I thought a floodlight hanging off the power cable would be a good load while I took a quick trip to the hardware store after just getting everything up and mounted to test. Murphy's Law, big winds came out of no where while I was gone and when I came up the driveway it was just getting dark. Imagine a snake thrashing around to rid itself of a light sabre on it's tail throwing a spot all over the woods and then the overspeed screaming of the blades with it's yawing madness and there you have a monster with a deserving role in a Steven King movie. Several tosses at the center of the hub with a big wet towel the best I could tamed the beast as the wind eventually let up also. I bungy corded the snot out of that thing to the tower and went inside traumatized. It's still got to be the best story I have, that was nearly 8 years ago.

  All fun stuff and fun to share. It's like flying though, mistakes can be serious without proper respect. Be aware and stay safe !    Dave B.

Offline DLoefffler

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Re: 3.2 meter ferrite magnet MPPT wind turbine
« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2012, 11:06:04 pm »
Thanks Chris,

I appreciate your response as well as the information. It appears as though the community is growing beyond trailer axles and crashing blades against towers, although I have enjoyed the pictures and the sense of camaraderie evidenced by same over the years. Your pictures are great, but for many of us, putting it all together needs to begin somewhere. I am not a mechanical engineer, but an applied math grad of Madison, with some machining under my belt as well as a complete machine shop. I can hold my own. Thus, it seemed like a good starting point to place some basic plans out, have others build off of them, see what modifications need to be made and grow as a community. Probably naive. I greatly appreciate what you share, understand the learning curve we all go through and I will go through.


Forums are great, enjoyable, but they seem to drift off topic and become enjoyably anecdotal. It might be an interesting idea to have a base off of which to build wherein various contributor state, "I have used these bearings and they are great, or they fail in this application." You are taking this endeavor to a new level with great engineering, machining, and fabrication skills.

There are so many mistakes to make, I am grateful you have shared your efforts to reduce ours. Thanks also for the clarification on the main shaft including length. Looking at the pictures, it appeared as though it had been ground, and I was wondering whether or not it was heat treated in a vacuum furnace so as to avoid this issue.
I don't have a crankshaft grinder, now I have a hint of what a tool post grinder might be used for on my lathe.

Again, looking at your pictures and the hints in the kind reply to my quesitons, I assume the bearings being dual races self align to correct for any issues in bearing alignment.


Thanks again, I look forward to your posts.


Dennis

Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 3.2 meter ferrite magnet MPPT wind turbine
« Reply #63 on: January 25, 2012, 01:33:40 am »
Again, looking at your pictures and the hints in the kind reply to my quesitons, I assume the bearings being dual races self align to correct for any issues in bearing alignment.

The dual row angular contact ball bearings actually came from Sweden.  My wife is Swedish and we went to Sweden for Christmas and my father-in-law had gotten them for me because he works for SKF.

Svenska Kullagerfabriken AB invented the self-aligning bearing in 1907.  But angular contact ball bearings are not a self-aligning type bearing.  They got pins in the outer race that engage with notches in the flange.

The bearings I used on the PTO shaft are self-aligning ball.  Those are insensitive to angular misalignments of the shaft relative to the housing.

Again, just because that's what I used, does not mean it's the only way to do it.  If you really wanted to, you could machine bearing cup bores and use tapered roller bearings on the mainshaft as long as you can come up with a proper way to lube and preload them.  You could use self-aligning roller bearings if you wanted to with a needle thrust in the rear of the case, and frankly, if I built a gearbox for a bigger turbine (like 5-6 meters) that's probably what I'd use in it.

For most folks who want to build turbines, using the published "book plans" is the best.  When it comes to geared wind turbines you just can't slap any gear ratio on some blades and make it work.  There's a fine line between trading torque for speed and generator efficiency, and actually being able to get more down the tower with it.  When it comes to building turbines you're either the type that needs plans and specs to follow, or you understand the concepts and can take it from there.  If you're the former, trying to build one of these machines like I build is just not the thing to do.  If you're the latter, then you immediately see what makes it tick and why, and you'll use the idea to design your own machine.

Trying to duplicate this one right down to the last dimension, is not going to work for you unless you understand some of the mechanical aspects of the thing.  That 46 lb flywheel mounted on rear the gearcase spinning at over 1,000 rpm has a HUGE inertia moment, and it makes the machine a little more quirky than I'd like.  It tries to counter the precession force of the rotor, which is part of the reason the machine won't furl when it gets wrapped right up.  I de-rated the machine to "fix" it.  But on the next one I'll fix it mechanically.
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Offline DLoefffler

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Re: 3.2 meter ferrite magnet MPPT wind turbine
« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2012, 01:05:24 pm »
Thanks, more questions.

Axial force for a 3KW machine. My rough calculation is that the maximum force would be slightly less that 700 lbs axially assuming all the force of the turbine is directed that way. Design with a 3x margin and a 2100 lbs axial bearing should fit the bill.

On your shaft, there are no shoulders to seat against the bearings. How is the axial force transmitted to the bearing?

For the taper on your shaft, matter of curiosity. Taper attachment for the lathe or offset the tailstock?

My lathe has a tracing attachment, but I have never used it, nor have I installed it. It is a ROMI and unfortunately only a 14" which may or may not make turning the plates an issue. I am considering mounting the plates on the mill turntable, surface milling the faces and milling the edge with the turntable. Probably not as smooth as a lathe. Farming the job out would be an option, but none of us on this board would do that except under the most extreme circumstances. :)

Dennis

Offline FrankZappa

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Re: 3.2 meter ferrite magnet MPPT wind turbine
« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2012, 02:01:24 pm »

My lathe has a tracing attachment, but I have never used it, nor have I installed it. It is a ROMI and unfortunately only a 14" which may or may not make turning the plates an issue. I am considering mounting the plates on the mill turntable, surface milling the faces and milling the edge with the turntable. Probably not as smooth as a lathe. Farming the job out would be an option, but none of us on this board would do that except under the most extreme circumstances. :)

Dennis

Sometimes you have to get creative. Just slow things down a bit.


Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 3.2 meter ferrite magnet MPPT wind turbine
« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2012, 02:22:28 pm »
Axial force for a 3KW machine. My rough calculation is that the maximum force would be slightly less that 700 lbs axially assuming all the force of the turbine is directed that way. Design with a 3x margin and a 2100 lbs axial bearing should fit the bill.

I don't know where you got them numbers from, but it's not even CLOSE.  To get a 700 lb axial thrust component on a 3.2 meter (10.58 foot) swept area would require a pressure differential of 8 Psf.  You can only get about 2.3 Psf with a sold sheet of plywood with a Cd of 1.05 in the wind up there @ 30 mph.

The actual axial thrust component @ 13 m/s and 3.5 kW shaft power is 32.7 kg.  That's working on a 130 mm offset and gives a torque moment at yaw of 47 Nm.
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Offline DLoefffler

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Re: 3.2 meter ferrite magnet MPPT wind turbine
« Reply #67 on: January 25, 2012, 07:58:11 pm »
Chris,
Well, I embelished a bit, I actually spent more time in theoretical math than applied, but I did survive diffq - was actually in the grad program. We really didn't do a lot with numbers, sort of "banal". :)

I appreciate the advice regarding the corn, there is a field road with a 'Y" and if I had the coop remove the power ines and go underground, a free standing would work;  of course, would have to program the route into the combine prior to harvest.  :-\

Talk is cheap, I have a hell of a lot of work to do. I plan on starting on the gear case first, build one, see how it goes, one piece at a time.

Look forward to future exchange of ideas - mostly yours as I don't have many worthy of mention at this point.

Dennis

Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 3.2 meter ferrite magnet MPPT wind turbine
« Reply #68 on: January 25, 2012, 09:26:47 pm »
Well, I embelished a bit

Dude - I'm an engineer so I never passed English class.  Don't even know what "embellished" means.   ;D
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Offline tomw

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Re: 3.2 meter ferrite magnet MPPT wind turbine
« Reply #69 on: January 25, 2012, 09:39:28 pm »
Well, I embelished a bit

Dude - I'm an engineer so I never passed English class.  Don't even know what "embellished" means.   ;D
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Try "exaggerated".... 8) ;D

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Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 3.2 meter ferrite magnet MPPT wind turbine
« Reply #70 on: January 25, 2012, 09:49:09 pm »
Try "exaggerated".... 8) ;D

Well, you just have to be patient with me so I understand.  It's kind of like the story where the two engineering students were walking across campus when one said, "Where did you get such a great bike?"

The second engineer said, "Well, I was walking along yesterday minding my own business when a beautiful woman rode up on this bike. She threw the bike to the ground, took off all her clothes and said, "Take what you want."

The second engineer nodded approvingly, "Good choice; the clothes probably wouldn't have fit."
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Offline Nekit

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Re: 3.2 meter ferrite magnet MPPT wind turbine
« Reply #71 on: February 14, 2012, 06:56:34 am »
Chris,
Just curious, what kind of kwh for the day are you getting with this setup.  Very nice work.

Rob L

Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 3.2 meter ferrite magnet MPPT wind turbine
« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2012, 10:09:32 am »
On a good day with a full 24 hour run in nice wind, 20 kWh.  On a poor day, zero.  It's averaged 6.1 since I put it on the tower.

The best continuous run it had so far was just last week - 20 kWh on Thursday, 13.6 on Friday, for an average output of 700 watts/hr for 48 hours.  Average wind speed for the 48 hours, as recorded by my APRS Wind Data Logger, was 7.9 m/s (17.9 mph).  Peak output for the 48 hours was recorded on Thursday at 2,334 watts.

During the same 48 hours one of my 3.8 machines also on a 74 foot tower generated 29.8 kWh, for an average output of 617 watts/hr.  Peak output of the 3.8 meter was also on Thursday at 2,116 watts.

It pretty much walks all over the bigger direct-hooked machines when the wind blows good, and it holds its own against the bigger ones in lighter winds.

The thing with these homebrew turbines is that the bigger they get, the less efficient they are.  I have calculated the overall efficiency of this little 3.2 meter at 29.8% @ 12.5 m/s.

The design of the generator in these homebrew turbines does not scale well with swept area.  For instance at 12.5 m/s @ 1,000 ft elevation you have ~24 kW of power flowing thru the swept area of a 17 foot machine.  At 30% efficiency it should be delivering ~7.2 kW.  The problem is, the generator can't take it.  The Mountain Boys that came up with the "Otherpower 17" might be able to get away with the weak-kneed design in their thin air.  But you put those machines on a real wind site @ 1,000 ft elevation with nice dense air flowing thru it @ 25-30 mph, and I'll push that 17 to 7 kW continuous and turn it into a flaming wreck.  That's why I have continued to shy away from larger turbines.  I have real air and real wind, and I don't need that kind of swept area to make power.
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Offline bvan1941

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Re: 3.2 meter ferrite magnet MPPT wind turbine
« Reply #73 on: February 16, 2012, 09:33:19 pm »
Chris,
Are you still using the "Powermax" S-809 blades for your  3.2M ? If not, who else makes them?

Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: 3.2 meter ferrite magnet MPPT wind turbine
« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2012, 09:45:04 pm »
Yes, they are for PowerMax upwind and Talon downwind turbines.
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