Anotherpower.com Forum
Project Journals => User Journals => Oztules => Topic started by: oztules on January 12, 2014, 06:52:26 pm
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Yes it's all true.
In a moment of weakness I decided to buy a power jack inverter to play with.... and it looks like this.
[attachimg=1]
It looks like this inside... warranty blown right there......
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
Well there it is.
This one is a 24v unit ( my mistake ), but it can do what it says. I can run loads of 6kw or more without problems.... I had the electric stove on, the hot water on and then the water jug..... and it turned off after a minute or so.... can't complain really, the stove was 3200w the hot water some 2500w, and the jug another 2500w... so all up it tried to do over 8000w... I don't now if it was batt under voltage, or power overload... one or the other, because over 8000w is over 300 amps, and I think I had voltage drop in the line... surprise suprise.
The 200 amp meters were way past their stops, and it will never again have to try this, but i could not get it to trip any other way.
So it was impressive to say the least. It also started the 3 phase converter, which is a 3 ph 10hp induction motor running in delta@240v from single phase...... so it can start darn big inductive loads too..
About this time I was becoming rather impressed, as i didn't think it had the ticker for this kind of abuse, so it seemed I needed to take a more serious look at this thing.
I had bought it because it was darn cheap, with free shipping to this island.... and as it weighs over 60lbs or 32kg, it is not so easy to get stuff that heavy sent here... so I bought it as a back up.
I was becoming of the view that this wasn't a toy like the ones I had heard and seen on the web earlier.... so decided to do some more testing.
Well it wasn't all tea and bikkies I'm afraid.
The engineers have not addressed the idle current other than a sleep mode at 25 watts.... but an awake mode of no power draw costs a whopping 8 amps..... yes you read that right .... 8 amps at idle.
Now as a cheap back up this is acceptable.... but as a house driving unit.. it is not good news to burn up over 5kwh a day and do nothing.
So it was time to try a few things we have learnt from the other unit I have ( the power star thing).
It already has two whopping torroids ( worth buying just for them ), so it was not going to be addressed like the power star was.
So I wound this:
[attachimg=5]
This solved the problem.... now idle currents were down in the sub 1 amp range.... in fact now it could be alive all the time, and waste less than 20 watts..... less than their sleep mode...... so 3 and a half turns around a 65mm e core made the thing very very acceptable as a front line unit..... who'd have thought.... a power jack as a front line unit.
Well it's true, it has been running the house... including the electric hot water for the last few weeks. The only thing on grid is the stove.... so usage from the grid was about 1kwh per day, and the house was running at about 11-13 kwh/day.
There was one other thing of interest here.
I have panels running at 300 volts and more intp grid tie inverters into the batteries via the inverter.... ie the grid ties run on the output of the inverter. When the house loads are greater than the grid ties can manage, the inverter takes up the slack, when the grid ties put out more than the house can use, the extra is fed back through the inverters output, and back through the sitching fets and transformers into the batteries.
I have seen in excess of 170 amps being back fed into the batteries via this method. The drawback is you need a big dump load on the batteries, or a cut out system to sequentially turn off the grid ties to keep the batteries from over charge.
If this is allowed to go, then the power jack will turn off when the batteries exceed 32v... which is the final safety in all of this.....THIS DOES NOT INVOLVE THE GRID for those folks wondering..... this is strictly off grid antics.
It is interesting to note, that without the e core filter in series with the primaries of the transformers, it would not grid tie to the grid inverters... but rather, blow all the overloaders in the ac line to the inverters.
With the filter in place, it was perfectly happy to be the grid, and sync the grid ties to it's output, and reverse flow the power to the batteries.... but not without the carrier filter.
So the big filter did two things, made the inverter a classy unit, and allowed it to back feed grid tie inverter inputs into it's outputs.
To say that I am impressed is an understatement. It appears bullet proof, and the spare parts ARE available.
Thats the clincher for me, in fact after I chased them up, they have even put the spares on ebay... about 170 dollars for the entire innards of the machine... ie power board, and control board, battery selector board, and driver board for the display..... just add transformers and a box, and you have built your own..
Before you rush out and do just that...... it is heaps cheaper to just buy theirs, as the cost of those torroids over here are over 1500 dollars alone, cheaper in the UK, don't know about USA. The transformers are over 25 lbs each....
One problem I had was the 24v part... I was set up for 48v..... so I had to do something about it.
I rearranged the battery pack to reflect the new setup... now it was 1500AH @ 24v
Re wired the solar panels for 24v ( left 4kw as 350v for the real grid ties ), and that gave me about 130amps of 35v solar power.
Now I needed a controller.
I sat down and scribbled a circuit of sorts out, and fleshed it out as I designed the board.. and finished up with this
[attachimg=6]
It is about 10am, and already it is up at 80 amps
[attachimg=7]
I have seen it at 120 amps. The heat sink ( and no those burn marks are form when this heat sink belonged to someone elses 2500w HF pure sine inverter) stays at less than just over skin temp even at high currents. The wave form is very clean, but swithcing at only about 4khz... makes the "layout" simple.
Here is the current going to the batteries after the power jack has used a few up from the incoming 80 odd amps
[attachimg=8]
May do an article on that if folks really want to try it.
Here is the wave form of the makeshift "solar controller" ( not the power jack.... that is pure sine) when it is running at only 40 or so amps after the bulk of the charging is done ( mid morning )
[attachimg=9]
All in all...... I love my power jack..... did not expect to ever say that in a million years.
................oztules
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Just an additional comment re power outputs.
This thing will do well in excess of 8000w for short stints.. read seconds...
It will power things in the 5-6000w range for quite some time ( 5-10 mins with current transformer mod) without getting dangerously hot (>60c) The cooling fan is quite large, and very quiet unless your pulling full over 4kw, then it is at max... still quite by most standards.
At 3-4000w it will run for extended run times with the fan keeping things cool, but my batt lead lugs ( and the 200 amp shunt in particular ) get warm to very warm ( maybe 65c )... the fan seems to keep the unit well under 50-60c
At 2-3000w and less, the unit will keep itself very cool. Should not exceed 50c ( probably 35c) even in hot weather... fan at half speed or less
At 1500w and less, the fan may not bother coming on at all on cool days, the transformer and heat sinks will remain well under 35c if the fan does come on.
So I am very happy to drive it with the full house, and nothing uses massive power for extended periods....mostly the house is idling in the 200-700w range.
This makes it ideal for here, as large start up loads are no problem, ( light flicker for an instant if large induction motor starts up) microwave, water pumps, 670 ltr freezer 60" telly, and the host of other stuff that seems to be required for the other halves comfort ( double door fridge with ice maker etc).... rarely seem to run all together, and does not matter if they do all run or even start all together.
But don't think your going to run the thing all day at 5000w and above.... you will need some mods for that.... and a much bigger battery bank.
The power and control boards are made outside power jack I suspect, as they are part for part resistor for resistor identical to my power star 6000w inverter..... and that is one tough hombre too.... same rules apply to that, except the fans are smaller, and run all the time.... minor piss off if you live next to them.
In the marine environment here, the power star starts to rust from the salty air here... I expect the blue anodized finish of the power jack to survive longer. For here the boards need protection from the almost 100% humidity and salt loads... so dunking them in grease or drowning them in CRC regularly stops the corrosive problems seen on an island.
Wifes washing machine is outside ( under cover ) but the air over here corroded the hair thick leads on the micro that was in it in the first 2 months...... after that , I managed to recover it, then drowned it in crc.
We turn it off after every use so there is no "sleep" current in it... then it lasted the next 7 years outside on the back portico..... thats the difference here between inside and outside on an island with electrical ( and anything else really) gear.
............oztules
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Oz;
Pretty interesting info.
Good to see you doing testing and improving on a "cheaper" inverter to meet your needs.
Hope all is well out on that spec in the sea where stuff is expensive to get and one fellow I know of has more fun dealing with that than is probably legal! ;D
Tom
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Howdy - glad you shared the review with us!
Very curious if there is data to chart efficiency for small loads, like the day is done and a couple of PC's are on, some lighting and a fan, yanno spending the evening in IRC 8) with some tunes on in the background while the missus shops Lands End and Amazon? ???
Also - the power star thing - chances on Daddying ( :o ) those few of us w/o perfect memory where it was revealed and your insights? Thanks in advance..
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The power star is here:
http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,780.0.html
The power stars have given very good service over here... but there are only two I know of
Both have done perfect operations for the last few years for one, and only a year for the other... both flawless.
They are essentially the same thing as the power jack, and i think the control and power boards are interchangable.. less some side show stuff
Here are the replacement boards for the power jack,
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/repair-parts-main-board-control-board-of-LF-Pure-Sine-Wave-Power-Inverter-/221351354856?pt=AU_Tool_Parts_Accessories&var&hash=item338991a1e8&_uhb=1
I suspect they will fit the power star as well.... certainly the power card will, and with a little loss of flashing lights, the control will work fine too.
The huge difference is the transformers in the power jack are torroids, and the power star are E I construction..... why I bought the power jack in the first place.
Loads:
Once you change the performance by putting in an inductor as described in both stories, the unit will draw about 20 watts of magnetising power... and thats it.
Any load big or small after that will incur only a few percent loss over the load value..... ie if your only drawing 200 watts of real power out of it, it will be probably using about 225, with 500 watts load, then less than 530.
These heavy things are about >90% efficient... so they claim, and my figures would give them a better grade than this..... but the 20 watts will always be there. In th the original configuration, the 200 watts magnetising current will always be there.
With the inductor in the line, the total draw = load + 20watts +about 5-8% of the loads value.
The long and the short is, once you pay the 20 watts for the magnetising current, the rest is load+ about 5-8%..... not sure if that holds for multi kilowatts above 3 or 4kw...... that said, it does not seem to suffer saturation, so it , may hold true for most of the range.
It has read outs for power, power factor, amps, voltage, hours used, kwh used ( and resettable).... but has no DC measurements on board.
I am rectifying that soon.
It cost me $650 for the inverter and I spent another $150 for the spare parts kit...... which is a total rebuild kit... start to finish less the torroids and display meter.
...............oztules
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Oztules, good post mate, as usual ..
How do you think some 16mm cable would go for that inductor ?. I've plenty and it's rated at 90c .
Thanks for the posts.
bruce
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It comes down to the expected duty cycle and current.
In my case, I expect massive surges, but low duty cycle, so the wire I used in this case was 10mm diameter core ( not cross section ) or about 78mm sq... but this was 24v, so would see 200A - 300A plus currents for very short periods ... and 150 amps for longer periods... maybe 10 mins max, then back to around 10-30 amps most of the time.... average of 500 watts or 12kwh/day for my setup.
So use as big as you can get into the space you have. If you can get two in hand then better. The 16sq mm is a bit light for my taste, but two in hand would get close to what I would care for at 48v.... it's only a few turns I guess.
If you mean 16mm diameter, then if you can get it in and bent... you will have done extremely well..... 10mm diameter core was a stretch for my bending ability.
................oztules
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ahh - I see 'power stat' is the brand of the first unit you'd upgraded, I went looking at it as if it were a homegrown toroidal transformer 'feedback loop' logic design you'd proofed and installed (whew!) ... I'm reading you've added a (third?) toroid to swap an E-core out that avoids core losses, and after reading ALL the ebay auction text for 'LF inverters' am seeing that is why some vendors advertise upgrading to their 10,000w model that has all toroids?
Understood about idle losses tracking across usage, still was curious once the bulk-of-system and wiring was injected...
Those LF inverters have a 20-30% price premium on our US auction site over what the AU site offerings have (had) which kind of ventures into honest pain area price instead of bearable... I'm still interested in a 24V unit soonish so when the times comes..
Thanks again
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Yes the power star was the test bed for making changes to a cheap pure sine inverter that has proved to be very tough in the field.
It had very sad power drag, so that was fixed.
The power jack shares the same mother board and power board. They finally realised the HF units they made were rubbish.... and used the same boards and better transformers and case and in fact seem to have a very good little unit.... but again, expensive on the power draw at idle.
The ecore seems to solve this, or at least mitigates it to a large degree, and allows grid tie inverter operation using the power jack as the grid.... it won't do this without the ecore.
As they now sell the power and control boards as a spare parts pack, you can just biy that and provide your own transformers and case and ecore.... and have a very cheap inverter.. as much power as you have transformers.. big welding transformers may be the ticket, as there is 12, 24, 48v controllers, and the price seems to be the same for all and any. A decent welder transformer and ecore would probably keep the idle current to a reasonable level.
who knows what you can get up to.
...............oztules
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Hi ,
This topic on the conversion of the W7 power-star inverter has come a long way ,recently. Thanks to Oztules,(John) and a few very informed technical team.
I am converting my W7 , so far hard wiring work ,bending 25mm Sq. hard wiring .
Just letting those interested in the new developements.
Bruce.
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Bruce, here are the pictures of the conversion, with twin torroid transformer, and put in the inspire box... with a few gauges for battery capacity and Ah and kwh volts ac and dc etc etc and kwh used and power usage time frames.
Here is the new transformer core with two inspire torroids wrapped up with the twin primaries already.
[attachimg=1]
Here is the transformer in the W7 chassis for testing with the powerjack boards.
[attachimg=2]
What it looks like installed in the inspire box
[attachimg=3]
outside the box:
[attachimg=4]
more outside the box
[attachimg=5]
................oztules
ps there is more information in these pages here where we discuss the powerjack and inspire and w7 conversions in depth.
The interesting thing is the massive difference that only 13uh of choke makes. It can't just be blocking carrier or harmonics, but Warpspped has a theory in there that may change the way we look at fet switching perhaps.
http://forums.energymatters.com.au/solar-wind-gear/topic3344-320.html
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Oz -
Absolutely amazing no doubt, you've got this one cornered rather thoroughly.
I had a thought re the E core inductor that might kill two birds... ?
Litz? Might be able to squeeze a bit more effective cross section in there by both utilizing more of the void around the core as well as reducing skin effect, all while making it relatively easy to wind (in terms of grunt, not necessarily "where was I" factor hehe) if its done strand by strand?
The skin effect I'm not positive on, as I'm of course imagining near nil carrier in the primary of the toroid, and the E is in series, yada. But sure would allow the "easier" winding and "heavier" wire no doubt.
Just food for thought ;)
Steve
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Hi, thanks for this topic!!!
If I buy an inverter power jack 10kW/40kW 48V, how do I reduce the power consumption at idle?
Best regards,
Elia
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The simple addition of a 18uh choke will do the trick.
No other change required for idle current reduction.
[attachimg=1]
Simple as that.
......oztules
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Wow, very simple...
Thank you very much!
P.s. It also works for the power star w7?
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No.
The powerstar needs better transformers... the choke will not help with those lossy monsters.Torroids give the best results, but EI transfromers with decent laminates do well also..... but not the powerstar ones I'm afraid.
.............oztules
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@ oztules or anyone who has pwrjack. I recently puchased 6000LF
Very happy with so far your review helped to make decisions.
Thanks so much for your post!!!!
I only loaded it to 1500w so far and ran ac unit great. It only has 1 toroid
Unlike the 2 in your 8000LF. That makes sense of course however the.
Fuse leading to outlets is only 25amp. Maybe i've forgotten ohms law.
But wouldnt that make max load 3000watts at 120v? Thought just
Hit me maybe if it was 220 volt it would b 6kw? Anyway im happy price
Was right at 405 shipped. Idle current is 1.63A at 26v around 40watt.
Do you think id gain much efficiency at idle with ecore mod? Maybe.
22 watt like yours?
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Ok i couldn't wait. The :o ecore i ordered rom ebay hasnt arrived yet.
i took the cover off again.... measured no load idle current at1.63A then noticed low voltage toroid wdg lead had a ferrite donut surrounding the 3 wires. There was just enuf room to unscrew.
The terminal and loop those 3 wires through the ferrite again. Measured no load current again.
Now its .92A. I then checked values under load, 945W output input
22.1V@41.3A took the extra wrap out of donut measured loaded 946W.
Output input 22V@45amps. Efficiency gain of a clear 4 percent. Wow
I dont completely understand it but good job in figuring that one out.
This unit is definately only a 3KW as configured to 120v but am happy.
With it maybe they figured i got it too cheap and boxed a 3K in 6Kwrap.
I drew out circuit and fets are irf3205 6x4 H-bridge what i dont understand
Is how u can power the toroid backwards and charge a battery since the.
Fets have freewheel diode i would think battery chg would b uncontrolled thru.
Diodes. By the sound of charger it sounds like fets are switching at high freq for
Charging. By the way im from Minnesota USA ..reason for 120v i know 220 is.
better in every way.
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I'm new at the term power jack inverter.....is this what you need for emergency
power to run freezer and refrigerator....and what would be the practical size ....
just to run the two assuming the largest size for a 2-4 member family ?
Thanks for answering . :)
Norm.
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The 6000lf should have two transformers in it. Powerjack transformers are a bit small for continuous duty at full power, so they limit it via software.
This tends not to be problematic in 99% of cases, as most folks don't have the batteries to run them for extended periods at full power... ie 6kw would be 240 amps plus losses continuously.... never seen a 6KW single transformer one. 5kw unit has only 1 tranny.
My 6000 has two "3kw" transformers. Transformer wattage is dependent on the heat only. A small tranny well cooled is equivalent to a big one not cooled at all( plus some voltage sag).... so it should be good for 3-4kw most of the time.
If you want more continuous, you will need to use bigger transformers, and fool the current transformer into thinking less current.....ie bypass some of the current around the CT.
The mystery of the lower idle current seems to revolve around the inductance ( current lags) giving the mosfets time to turn on fully before the current comes on fully, so our switching losses in the fets diminish rapidly, and so does the heat.... It certainly seems to run cooler.
It is a function of H bridge switching that the current will run back through the fets if the potential is higher than the drive. This turns up in most DC pwm motor controllers and is touted as active breaking... ie charge the battery with the braking energy. The switches are switches, and can run the current either way once the N channel is turned on... so through the transformer and backwards through the switch to the battery.
When we use it as reverse grid tie ( off grid), the same thing happens, but now the micro does not know we are doing it, so it cannot control the charge, and it needs a dump or cut off switch for the grid tie unit. The micro is still responsible for the sine wave... thats why it cannot control the reverse current for the batteries.
In normal charger mode, it bypasses the inverter function, and powers the load from the generator/grid, so is not responsible for the wave form of the output. This leaves the micro free to control the gates to feather the charge to whatever it wants, and does not have to worry about output waveform.
The fuse is about right for 3kw continuous. It will blow in about 2 seconds at 6kw. The micro won't let it run that hard for that long, so it is probably about right for a 3kw continuous unit, that will start very heavy loads for short times.... ie compressor motors etc..... It looks like it has the bigger brother stickers on it..... but still a great unit for the price.
You will get it down to about 16 watts or so with some inductance on the input to the trannies.. maybe 18 uh or more....only 1 transformer mass to magnetize.
Power jack do themselves no favors with this type of behavior,they build to price from the looks of it... buy cheap, smaller trans, buy the dearer one on auction, may get bigger transformer... I don't know, but I bought a very cheap 8000lf, but it had 2x 3kw trannies ... with black texta over the 3kw sticker on the torroid itself..... they should have been the 5kw ones like my original one.... but I paid more for that one too..... the smaller trannies work as well as the 5kw ones do, but it has tighter software control.... less minutes at full power....
But they are still brilliant value anyway, and plenty tough too. Can replace the 3205 with irfb4110 and bypass the CT and push for 8kw 80% duty cycle.... if you can keep the tranny cool that is.
In Australia, there is a heap of very very cheap torroid transformers on the market at the moment, and this makes it very interesting as what to build next.. sky is the limit.
Norm, the 3kw units will do that easily. Powerstar have the same electronics, but slightly different software, and their continuous output is higher, as the software allows for bigger ( though less efficient) trannies. They won't respond to the inductance trick either..... only high quality transformer laminates will do that.
.....................oztules
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yep aat the moment the neighbor doesn't bother with all that
Lot of money and the stand by emergency generator does that
without a lot of know how on his part :)
so I'll just let it go at that
I don't have a freezer but a lot of ice in my big freezer in refrigerator
to keep it cool enough for eggs, milk and butter , etc.
thanks for the answer
Norm.
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Wow! Im amazed at your explanations Oztules, not many who understand.
All that stuff. The charging reference to dynamic braking helped.
Me understand it. For some reason braking always has made sense to.
Me but i never connected the two (bkg and chg) as being the same function.
Yeah pwrjk is great value but it would be great to know specs for.
Sure when u purchase. Thanks for pointing out simple mods to.
Increase output if needed. Split phase 120/240 would be great.
Addition too! by the way i noticed that pwrjk has sold a few split phase.
Units lately not often though!
THANKS AGAIN for excellent infomative post! :)
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I finally got ecore,also ordered a couple of 2" ferrite.
Toroid cores like these
http://m.ebay.com/itm/181410431240.
I was able to get one of these inside the box with.
2 turns. Idle current went from original 1.63A down to.
.54A. roughly 42watts down to 13-14watts. My meter could.
Be off a bit too but i'm very happy with it and impressed thanks.
To your help, much appreciated! :) (i only went with toroid core.
Cuz i could fit in box without lengthening lead wire.) This unit.
Wont be idling much anyway as i have programmable relay switching.
It off when no loads are transferred to it. I noticed that adding the inductance.
Not only helps idle efficiency but it also improves losses under load.
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Just want to update results from 2"toroid. While under a 1kw load the inverter started
Screeching really loud. I took cover off to see what racket was all about and found when i
Squeezed toroid core the pitch of sound changed then it started getti g hot. I turned off switched to the ecore and it was fine. The toroid core mustve been broken inside or maybe not ferrite at all but rolled tin and it had shorted turns
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The torroid core will saturate very early on in the power range, thats why an ecore is better with a gap.... it will saturate too ( I ran it at 10kw the other day for a short time (5 mins) ... but it will still keep the magnetising losses to a minimum, and this translates into a 300w plus saving for a 48v system.. right through the power range as you have found.
I find that if I super glue the ee's the heavy battery cable wound through it stops any noise.... otherwise it is very noisy.
That torroid looks fairly light, do you know the inductance of it? 18-20uh seems in the right area.
I may have to do another story on these things, as lots has been learnt since writing this.
If you wind your own transformers like I have done, it is important to get the phasing around the right way for the ac coupling to work properly... or it gets very untidy quickly.
These power jacks have a very nice control card that lends itself to very high power if you have the transformers to take it, and the fans to keep it cool.
They are simple and very very tough. You need to stick a screwdriver in the wrong place to get them to fail.
Bypassing some of the current around the current transformer gives you access to lots of grunt..... and I mean lots.
.......oztules
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Good day everyone, I stumbled on your forum while looking for a way to solve issues with my PSW7 5000W inverter. I've had it since Nov 2013, and I use it on a solar system 48v input, 220V split output at 50Hz here in Jamaica. Just recently it started to shut off after 5mins of use, no fault lights or anything, just seems to be running as normal, but no output, even when I restart it. Correction, it actually didn't shut off, it just stop sending power after 5 mins or so. Now it will not work at all. It needs a new control board and I should be all set, but my second issue is that I don't know how much power its using at idle, but based on my read up, its quite a lot. So first thing is that I need help finding parts and second is how to get it to use less at idle. otherwise I'm gonna have to get one of those magnum units at lots of $$$$...
Can anyone help on these issues, especially parts.
Its a PS W7 type inverter, 5000W 48V, 220v split output at 50Hz. Two IE transformers.
No display on the unit, just status LEDs.
Thanks, Geoffrey.
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Check your reset switch for continuity.
Is the fan running at the transformer end
Is the small fan running at the front end
Do any lights come up.
Are the heat sinks warm.
If the big fan at the rear is working, it is making power, as that fan runs on the output AC
If the small fan is running, it means the pwm power supply for the control board is working, and so are the two high side drive power supplies. All run off the same transformer.
A faulty tacho output signal in the small fan will stop it dead too.
Tell me as much as you can as to what bits run, , what fans are running if any, what lights are showing if any.
It is a good solid performer normally, but high power overheads.
If you can use it on search for intermittent loads then it is about 25 watts, if running full time, it will consume 4 amps of your 48v battery all the time, on top of any loads.
You need high quality transformers to stop this power loss.
You may find them in old welders, as they seemed to be better built back in the day, but they will be better than the ones in the unit.... you may get it down to 60 watts or so with them
The ideal is to get a torroid transformer with about 30v input and 220v output. This can be very expensive, unless you can find some grid tie inverters of the heavy kind. They use huge torroids, and can be rewound to do whatever you want.... usually we keep the inner winding and just rewind the primary with battery/welding lead cable.
With a decent torroid the power loss can be as low as 20 watts.
Try to get this one working first..... but if you need new boards and can't find them, then the powerjack LF control boards can be used with small changes... they are on Ebay for about 45 USD plus shipping.
But first .... how does it start up step by step, and what is actually running if anything.
..........oztules
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Hi guys Im looking to make the choke three and a half turns 18 mh core you say sounds simple, but I cant seem to get hold of one in England (any help please).
You said running at 8 kw the amps would be about 300 amps is the 8000 LF that good, sounds low to me.
I like the idea of being able to read the battery amps, any help would be great, Email would be brilliant.
Any ideas running 8000 w LF with a 3650 w PV system grid tie.
Fab thread very interesting. best to all. Steve.
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Yes that was my original 24v unit. Normally it ran at 28vdc so 300A would be close.
With a standard power jack, you will do this for 12 seconds and it will beep and shut down...... not because the electronics can't stand it, but the transformers won't do that for long.... I ran that for testing, I now am back to 48v systems.... have 4 of them now, 2 power jack originals, and 2 powerjack control and power boards with serious transformers in the old grid tie boxes.
Nominally it is really only about 3kw continuous... after that it's programming protects it from excessive heat build up in the transformers.
The electronics are good, the programming is to safe for power users, as the transformers are too small for long run high power.
I build much bigger transformers capable of 8kw continuous out of old galvanically isolated grid tie units... they have very good torroids, that are rated and run at 3kw continuous all day with no cooling. I use 2 or 3 of them stacked and rewound for high power continuous. The failed/ broken aerosharps here are cheap I bought 10 x 1.5kw units for 400 dollars.... the cores are good for 2kw or so continuous...... The inspire ones (1.5kw) have 3kw cores in them, and so rewinding with 2 stacked, gives an easy 6kw continuous..... but you have to fool the current transformer by bypassing some of the current around it with a shunt. That way the thing will do continuous high power, rather than the 12 seconds.... you need a serious battery pack to do that though.
The surge currents are huge for starting stuff up... I mean huge.
If you beef up the transformers, 3-4kw solar grid tie is no problems, we have one here that runs 3 x 1.5kw grid ties every day.... BUT it requires the current shunt, and rigging the fan for continuous operation, as the computer will not see the current draw and so not turn the fan on until it is too hot anyway.
The electronics are good, and by beefing up the tranny, and current bypass and cooling, they will give the bigger name brands a very serious run for the money.
In their native state, they are excellent 3kw units, not 8kw units, although the surge is very impressive. Buying the 15kw control card for 45 dollars is a good lurk for those running 48v, it saves shunting the transformer, so the computer still does a good job with the fan control, but then best to upgrade the transromers, or they will over heat in continuous mode.... 15kw card is good for about 5kw continuous without modification.... the 15kw power board is electrically the same as the 8kw power baord, but physically twice the size to spread the heat better.
I have bought the 15kw power card as well, but have not bothered to press it into service as the 8kw with the changes is easily big enough to run my house including electric hot water unit... it runs the 15kw control card at the moment.
I have seen break down ( explosion of fets) caused by turning off the grid "shore power) while running the grid tie into it without a house load.
So AC coupling to shore power input I think has some further testing and blowing up before I can say for sure why that happened..... at least they mostly are easy to fix... if you fuse the input properly... then hopefully the fuse will blow during the fet meltdown, and the tracks up on the control card don't get cooked as well. If the fuse blows it will be just the fets, some gate resistors, the totem pole transistors and the 2 opto's, which are plugged in in the newer models........ sometimes it is just the fuse..
Yes i have done some truly horrible things to these unit to see what happens.... and sometimes because of simple stupidity.
They have never blown driving a huge load..... mostly with no load while I have been trying stuff I shouldn't......not too bright.
I will endeavour to answer questions on the board, not privately.... no one else learns anything that way.
.......oztules
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Hi guys I’m looking to make the choke three and a half turns 18 mh core you say sounds simple,
But I cant seem to get hold of one in England, It looks to me like you have used two E s rather than an E and a I ??, (any help please).
You said running at 8 kW the amps would be about 300 amps is the 8000 LF that good, sounds low to me,
My experience with a modified sine wave unit it would be 700 to 800 amps.
I like the idea of being able to read the battery amps, can this be done without butchering the unit to much, any help would be great.
Any ideas or mods running 8000 w LF with a 3650 w PV system grid tie.
Fab thread very interesting. Best to all. Steve.
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e core close to you... http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/E6527-Kaschke-E65-E-EE-Ferrite-Cores-High-Frequen-Power-transformer-AL-7900-1set-/370597734866?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item564958a9d2
These units are pretty efficient... 800 amps would be only 30% efficient, and need to loose 14kw as heat...... does not sound right unless you are talking 12v units.
Battery amps are best read with a 300 amp current shunt and digital or analogue meter. You don't need to mess with the unit itself if you don't want.
You need the ecore and the unit to run the grid tie... nothing more.... but you would have to limit your solar to maybe 2800 or so watts to keep the temp down in the inverter....... and some way of turning off the grid tie when full, or a big dump load... or if your an animal, just let the batteries over voltage and the power jack will shut down anyway.
To go further you need more transformer core or better cooling. Grid tie is high power for long periods, that you would normally never see in off grid standard uses. Pulling multi kilowatt loads for 10-14 hrs at a time would be harsh on the batteries in off grid life..... more usually 500w/ hour on average.
...oztules
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:) Hi please dont let me interrupt ur conversation, i just hav a quik question for Oztules, do you kno how to adj. Ac output voltage on pwrjk inverter? I just got my2200w solar running, works great but i hav a 76 meter power cable run and my pwrjk regulates at 110v would like to bump up to 115 or 120. right now i can sag 3 to 4 volts over 2kw. Thank You
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No I have not looked at the acv regulation... may soon.
Are you using HV solar and a grid tie on this unit, or LV into batteries near the array... if using HV and grid tie, take the PJ back to the house, and transmit the 400VDC from the array, and lower the losses that way.
Please interrupt and describe your system, and post pics too if you could..... do a story etc..... more the merrier.
....oztules
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:) OK you talked me into it! Both, to post my project and to move the inverter to the house!
Actually i started to do information post yesterday but got interupted. It may b a bit before i get it posted and ive never posted a pic b4 so hav to figure that out.
In ans to your question, im using low voltage not grid tied batteries at panel yet i love ur idea of moving inverter to house so it isnt exposed to moisture, temp xtremes etc.
Since you posted idea to run HV for long cable run i havent been able to sleep thinking about how to downconvert 270v to 29 at 95% efficiency without spending 1500 on a xantrex. There are 2 reasons i did the low voltage at panel. I foolishly bought 2 different types of panels and i wanted to omit expense of fancy charge controller. Since panels are different 5pnls max pwr current of 8.84A while the other 5 are mpI 8.4A. If i series connect these i loose .4A x 5 panels at mpv 22 v is just about 50 watts. Not a terrible sacrifice to get inverter inside. Or i could do 2 separate series strings. One at mpv 22v x 5= 110v and the other mpv 30v x 5 =149v. Since you mentioned this i have been thinking about modifying and paralleling several LED power supplies. I think they would down convert 150DC to 29 nicely if i feed high v dc onto board at high v caps, then modify volt regulation to match ideal mppt of panels, a bit difficult but possible yet im not impressed with efficiency of those pwr supplies i think they run at about 85%.
B4 i plunge into another sinkhole of time investment and fix something that isnt broke i cant forget this setup has been working beautifully for a week now with no adjustments,maintenance or tweaking and just passed the 60kwh mark. I have it set up to add and shed loads. Its been running 2 freezers and 2 fridges pretty much constant every day and when it has extra it runs a 6kbtu ac unit or the 650w water distiller. When i come home from work often there is a full gallon of distilled water in it.
If u know of a circuit that can downconvert at high eff letme know. I think 150 to 29 exceeds abilities of common buck circuit doesnt it? I will post more on layout of project soon hopefully today! Gotta go do yard work at the moment.
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If it is working well, I would not be in a rush to change it. There is no right way or wrong way, as all the theory has to be couched in the practical circumstances... or horses for courses...... 3 or 4 volts is not problematic
Remember, in your current setup, the watts being transported the 70 meters is probably lower for the AC than the DC..... ie your average power used up by the fridges and freezer will be in lower quantities than the 2kw you will be bulking during a daylight period... well it has to be, as your daylight does not last 24hrs, so at least less than half on the drain side as the charge side.... just my guess, so any improvement will have to be decent to be worth while...... or if you use power in high shorter bursts, then the opposite may be true.
A big buck converter is the DC transformer you seek, and i don't have any circuits on bucks.... have only built boost.
In this country, galvanically isolated big grid ties are cheap as chips, and would have solved your problem for peanuts, and happy to 450vdc.
If your a bit of a ratbag, you could buy the PJack 240v or 220v 60hz control card, series the transformer outputs, and transmit 240vac and use a big transformer... probably from a big welder with split phase transformers that you folks have over there, and bring it back to 110v.
If your even more of a ratbag, you can just series the transformer outputs, and let the unit sample only one of them for it's 110v, but you can use the 220v as your AC drive to a step down transformer....... ac coupling will need to be carefully polarised or damage will occur... you will also have doubled the power output so beware..
You may not want the batteries at the house either.... everyones situation is different, and every voltage conversion costs a bit of power too.
"650w water distiller. When i come home from work often there is a full gallon of distilled water in it. "
I have built a solar powered reverse osmosis unit... runs on about 90 watts, and produces over 800 liters of water/day @1ppm in summer, and 400 liters in winter.... seems a better way to make pure water.... and stills should be used to make other things... hic....hic
.............oztules
EDIT: Noticed from your older posts, you have only 1 transformer to play with... oh well, the idea was there.
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Hi friend, I bought the inverter LF-5000-24-220, works perfectly.
But I have a little problem with overvoltage protection. When my epsolar 3215 recharges the battery, voltage rises to 29V (checked with a multimeter). My PowerJack but triggers alarm with overvoltage protection. It should start alarm up to 31-32V. You advise me how to easily fix alarm to 31V? Thanks
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I had a very similar problem a week ago. I could not figure out where the high voltage was coming from . Finally i caught it in the act, it was my charge controller doing an automatic battery maintenance/ equalize charge on a schedule. Bumped my voltage to 32. The powerjack will lock out when it sees this. Check your charge controller settings and manual.
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Yes it seems the inverter is very susceptible to current spikes.
If you have a pwm charger, then you will probably get a lot of this nonsense. I have tried to understand why the batteries are not capable of squashing the current spikes from the PWM of the controller.... but maybe 70 amp pulses originating at 72v is hard to squash.
The multimeter does not show it, but the CRO does..... and the inverter is looking at the peaks.... drat...
It will happen in the absorb/finishing state, as that is when you start to PWM... before that the fets are switched on fully ( so no spikes here), but it is when it throttles back near end of charge this quirk starts to inflict it's problems on us.... and what you see on your dvm is not what the chip sees... it sees the pulses.
I decided I did not ever want the inverter telling me when it wants to switch off from high voltage in the bank.... turning off won't help the battery...
So I put 4V zener across the resistor near the chip that says "cut if high"...... now it will not ever turn off from OV just like I like it.
If there is any turning off to do.... I'll do it....... not it.
.................oztules
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Yes, this is a problem in finishing charging. Epsolar 3215 is a MPPT controller. Voltage pulses are a good idea. It might help a large capacitor at the output of the controller.
oztules: please do foto zener diodes, if possible.
Thanks
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Hi Again! :) Thanks for overvoltage info. Great ideas on power transport. I did snag another 6K inverter identical to the one I already have. Do you think it would help to remind them I need both transformers this time? If not I'm happy anyway, from what I've seen so far this unit has been a workhorse. It runs mostly at 800 to 1200 but sometimes I see it at 1945 continuous and 2200 on load starts. It will get a 48 volt board eventually and 2 transformers to make it a true 6K unit. Yes, thankyou, watch phasing (polarity) when connecting transformers.
Like you said, improving efficiency of this setup may not be that easy to do but I love the idea of only panels outside.
"Galvanically isolated big grid ties" ?? Are you talking about a voltage boost on each panel into a commo 450v buss all connected to 1 larger grid tie inverter? The small grid tie inverters on each panel didn't appeal to me because I want ability to run without grid if I want to. I remember you mentioned something about several single panel grid tie inverters all running into your pj acting as grid. That sounds neat however the small grid tie inv are not pure sine are they? Maybe they are, Ive never looked at them much.
"stills should be used to make other things" He He ;D yeah, I doubt water was the first use for a still. It does beat buying
it at $1.20/3.8liter. Unless of course you are a genius and you can make anything ;)
Great idea on RO unit I might like to try it sometime. Right now before I try to describe project what do you think about
series connecting all panels, send to house at 270v dc. Purchase a 5KW VFD and wind a ferrite core with 3 primaries and a secondary, vary frequency of VFD to match MPPT and rectify output to batteries. A home built buck circuit wouldnt be difficult either.
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oztules: you should this resistance over the mind?
[attachimg=1]
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Yes Lanho.... thats the one.
It will stop the thing ever stopping from over voltage.... thats the pro...
The con is that your charger has no longer any idea of when to give up and move out of bulk charge, as it can't judge the SOC at the high end of the charge.
If you take more interest in this part of it, then time spent getting the right zenner combination may give the best of both worlds.
I don't use the charging except for rare occasions.
.....oztules
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Lighthunter,
No I use AS4777 approved inverters as found on normal 400vdc home solar installs.
The box i built the inverter in is from one of them ( they were 1.5kw inspires from CEHE tech in China. beautifully built too.... but best of all have huge 3kw torroid cores in them, which we rewire to our specs..... these are not single panel inverters as they take up to 150 - 450Vdc for the input, and can do 1.7kw each output.
Here they are again:
This gives you some idea of the size of these things.
[attachimg=1]
once again with the internals on the prototype ( so cheap you just keep making a few spares... have 4 now)
[attachimg=2]
For those interested, here is the screen shot on the scope of the wave form of the input to the transformer secondary from the low switch fets. ... don't panic it comes out the other end as a pure sine wave @ 240vac 50hz... no they are NOT square waves, but a pattern of very very close individual pulse waves of varying widths, that look to us like a square wave unless you magnify it up, then you can see each pulse width making up the "square looking wave"... they are as they are supposed to be for pure sine operation.
[attachimg=3]
This is the effect of a slightly larger choke on that same input wave. The curved short waves are actually the tops and bottoms of the fine pulse width waves from before,
[attachimg=4]
How that small of inductance makes that big a change is difficult to understand......, and when you see the output.... is is a pure sine wave with no distortion.... amazing really...
That transformer is a little one from a name brand 1.5kw Australian inverter that failed, it has more primary turns than original, as it was 24v, but mocked up to be 48v .
The neighbor runs a power jack ( heavily transformered, current bypassed for 6kw cont and zenner over the resistor etc. It now is the frontline inverter for his house, as it performs better in all aspects than his near $10,000 selectronic.......it has been relegated to standby duty... and to start the genny if needed.....
His PJ takes two big grid tie inverters on it's output from remotely placed solar panels .. one normal setup on the power shed with mppt controller, a few kilowatts on the house with grid tie unit and another few kilowatts on the main barn with grid tie unit... about 70 meters spacing I guess.
These things are not toys, they are serious contenders
..........oztules
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Oztules, and anyone interested here is the good bad and ugly of my solar.
The panel ... 2250W, well 2050 to be exact, its missing one 200w panel.
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Ok, the pics are sent, as you can see, I have no idea how to put the text between them so here it is.
The panel is self explanatory for the most part. Its a prototype as of yet. This arrangement holds it solid for now
but there will be pillow block bearings under each side in the center allowing panel to sweep 30 degrees each direction
from straight up with bearings attached to v shaped end frames.
The next pic, is the back of panel where a (trakmax 40) runs 4 200watt panels as a stand alone charge controller connected to 2 105AH 12v batteries. (24v system). There are 3 dpdt relays beside the charge controller that connect
the remaining 5 panels to the batteries. These have mpv of 29.8V.
Guardian transfer switch has been modified with 6 DPDT relays serving as active transfer switches steering grid
power or inverter power to each of 6 load groups. The main controller for the panel is an Idec programmable relay with
1 expansion module which switches all 9 relays and the inverter on/off when needed.
There is a picture of the program....
And a picture of the power jack inverter display as its running happily.
And the pic of the circuit board is a gem I just received that will boost or buck automatically at efficiencies of 95 to 98.5%...it is needed to hang the remaining panel as that panel is 22vmp, useless to charge 24v bat without boosting.
How, it works.... At 7AM a clock in the idec relay switches the 5 large panels to the batteries and turns on the inverter. It monitors battery voltage, when the voltage reaches 28v, the first load switches on. If anything is connected to that load group the battery voltage drops as the inverter uses some of the power. As the sun gets stronger and output increases, the voltage again climbs to 28 indexing the count to turn on load #2. and so on all the way to #6 . If after the first load turned on and the voltage did not drop it would simply index to number 2. If a cloud comes along there is another threshold
trigger that will index the count down and shed a load in sequence. At 5.30 PM the loads all shut off transferring to utility and the inverter shuts off while the panels remain connected to recharge the battery fully for the night. At 10 pm the panels are then disconnected from the batterys.
Lately it has been running without any problems at all, clouds or sun. It runs at about 400watts with heavy cloud cover.
There are always little things that you notice for improvements as you observe a machine running, one of those is I want to add a state of charge meter to the system, either program one into the relay or maybe add one someone else has built. It is difficult if not impossible to accurately detect state of charge on voltage alone during changing loads and charge conditions through the day. It does real well but I have caught it running the battery in a 25% SOC in heavy clouds. At that point, i did increase the lower threshold a bit so it would shed loads earlier and separated the loads some so they shed at different lower thresholds instead of all using the same point. This appears to be working great but I know if I want the batteries to last 5 years I better make sure they dont deep cycle too much.
This is all in the testing phase of the project. The panels will need to be moved once the tracking pivot is done and the sun angle makes it necessary.
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I forgot to mention some of you may wonder how well loads like to switch power sources while they are running.
As of lately none of the appliances connected to the solar are complaining at all. 2 freezers and 2 fridges are able to switch without any notice when standing next to them. If you listen closely you can tell when it switch6es but the motors continue running. The switching occurs within 1 cycle of the 60hz waveform so not much time is lost, around 15 milliseconds if I remember right. Air conditioners are the only load I had trouble switching, They would loose too much speed and trip out during the switch since the rotors are loaded quite heavily.
There are several solutions to this problem which I will correct but for now if I want an air conditioner to run I simply turn the utility breaker off for that load and the AC unit starts and stops as the solar power is available to run it. Later, I will sample the wave form from each source and switch when they are synchronized, if this doesn't solve it I will add another relay to the problem load and program a power off for a couple minutes before re-energizing load. Of course, if it has a digital display temp setting, a capacitor would need to be added to circuit board of AC unit to hold settings during off period.
I had a lot of fun working with this and is very rewarding, I'm hoping for an 8 year payoff but if not then it was still fun.
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The guardian switch is cool.
Zero crossing is not good to start a transformer, better to start it at the top of the waveform if you can..... syncing the signals is a good idea.
Really your having a disproportionate amount of fun for a 2 battery system.
......oztules
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Has anyone put a remote control facility onto one of the Power Jack inverters? I'll be getting a 8000W LF but my current (mod sine) inverter I switch on/off with my controller as the system is really just for emergencies.
At the moment I simulate a push button (with a relay) and monitor for an LED to be lit (i.e. use an opto) to say the inverter is on. Would be handy to duplicate this on a pure sine box.
Cheers
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"At the moment I simulate a push button (with a relay) and monitor for an LED to be lit (i.e. use an opto) to say the inverter is on."
That will work fine... it needs to be held on for the duration. it won't self latch without mods.... and I am guessing your does this at the moment too.
...............oztules
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Ok i happend on the specs of a 2.5kw inspire inverter. Very impressive. The ideal dc downconverter plus mppt function. Thats nice! If i make my own buck converter to do 250 plus down to 48 theres bound to be a lot of time and some smoke involved. If i ran hv dc buss from slr panel back to house the inspire could be inside and do the mppt function and supply ac loads.
Only cons are there arent many available and none that ship to US. One other item is they are 220, could rewind for 120v or change evrything in house to 220v. PJ would b basically out of a job except for battery charge and load fill in. Brilliant setup Oztules.
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Yes you could transmit at 350-400vdc to the house.
The grid tie will do the mppt, but it has to have the power jack supply the grid frequency, it is not stand alone.... none are.
The powerjack will need the small inductor conversion, or they don't play well... at all.
Then yes, it will power the house loads for as long as the solar is more than the house drain, then it will use battery when solar is less than drain, and charge the batteries if above drain, and run house..... mine does this every day.... it's neat........... need a dump load or voltage switch to monitor the grid tie unit, it can't throttle back, so will try to cook the battery if it has too.
I assume there are 110v units over there somewhere.
.....oztules
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Hi Oztules Thanks very much for pointing me in the right direction for getting the ferrite cores, they should be here soon.
Lets see if I have got things right please,
Isolate the mains from my grid tie inverter,
With the choke fitted power up the 8000 w Lf.
This will wake up my sonny boy 3600w inverter grid tie
Any excess power from the PV will go through the 8000w LF inverter
and charge the batteries ???, but do don't over charge them,
(1) Have I got hold of the right end of the stick
(2) Would 4 turns be better than 3.5 ? on the choke ?
(3) What mods have you in your head for reading Dc power
from inside the 8000 w LF
Your help is invaluable to us all, many many thanks Oztules, Steve.
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1. yes
2. marginally better... not worth it if is too hard to fit the extra 1/2 turn in.
3. I use one of these http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DC-0-120V-0-250A-Voltage-Current-Capacity-Watt-Battery-Monitor-State-of-Charge-/181295595016?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item2a360f3e08
It is not the best unit in the world, but once calibrated does kwh kw V A AH and percentage of charge left.
Beware, if you fit the zener in over the "cut if high" resistor, it will not turn off on over voltage... after about 64v it may go poof if your 3kw of grid gets the batteries charged up, and the sun comes out. You need a way to stop it, or dump the excess.
If you don't use the zener, the PJ will shut down the grid tie and itself at 62v or so.... it will require a restart to continue.
The power jack becomes the grid to the grid tie by connecting the grid tie to the output of the powerjack...... do not attempt to get the mains involved in any way with it like this..... keep it entirely separate.
NOTE:
I have never tried to use a HF grid tie unit for anything... not even normal grid tie.... I use the heavy galvanically isolated things that weigh a ton.
I expect the transformerless units to work the same, as they don't know the difference between the real grid, and the PJ grid.... but I have not used a transformerless one myself... never will either, have too many of the heavy ones to use.
....oztules
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Oztules, Thankyou for ideas on long distance power efficiency!! Very helpful information!
Have a great day! :)
Lighthunter.
Ps ...do you have any idea if the inspire you have can sync to 60hz or would that b out of range? Im not asking u to blow anything up checking, just thought it might b in the specs. Thanks!
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Any approved grid tie unit in Aust will run from 49.5 - 50.5 hz.... no more no less.
It is part of the AS4777 that there is only 1 hz of movement ( 50+/- 1/2 hz) before shut down occurs.... and no restart until stable hz and volts has occurred for a period of time within that window.
Now thats what I am told is in the regulations, and my grid ties agree..... but of course the regs that you must follow are NOT available for perusal...nor can you get a copy to read them...........without big fees up front........ typical Govt idea.
..................oztules
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Makes sense... I had to ask because i had found these specs of a different inverter but same manufacturer. I suppose it is in a different class tho with different regulations. Thanks again for info i owe you!
Technical Parameters:
EHE-N50K Model EHE-N50K DC Input Max. DC Voltage 880Vdc MPP Voltage Range 420-820Vdc Max. DC Power 55KWp Max. Input Current 125A AC Output Output power 50KW Current THD <3%(?50%rated power? Nominal Grid Voltage 320-450Vac Nominal Grid Frequncy 50/60Hz Power Factor .?0.99??50%rated power? System Max. Efficiency 95% Euro Efficiency 94% Protection Degree IP20 (indoor) Operating Temp. -20~+45? Cooling Humidity Controlled forced-air cooling Relative Humidity 15%~95%, non-condensing Comm. Interfaces RS485/RS232/Ethern/GPRS Display LCD Mechanical Data W | H | D 800/2200/800(mm) Weight 700kg
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Hi Oztules Thanks for the answers to questions 1 2 3 above, you stated the grid tie inverter will not know the difference between the real grid or PJ, everything seem the say that is very true seems to run anything. After running on the PJ for a few nights testing, the TV. died a sudden death, leaves me guessing was the TV. due to die anyway or is there something in the PJ it don't like, it’s a modern 40 inch flat screen job, your views will be much appreciated, many thanks for all your words of wisdom. Steve.
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1. The PJ output is a very convincing sine wave, and it's regulation is tight... so I don't suspect it for a second.
2. The TV will have a pwm, pfc corrected input, so can stand very large voltage swings without damage.
3. Due to the pwm power supply, the guts of the telly will be well protected from nearly any weird input short of lightning strike..... however, this is also the Achilles heal of them.... the caps die from ripple in most instances, and replacing these will usually get the thing running again...... but sometimes the power fet dies as well from trying to compensate too hard, and it and it's driver will need a makeover too.
In all the flatscreen tv's I have fixed over here, it is always the power supply shot...... eg: try this... http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,302.0.html
............oztules
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I just wrote up a quick post about one of the repairs I have done on these LCD power supplies.
I didn't have to get as down and dirty in the repair as Oztules, hope it may help a bit as well.
http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,961.msg9338/topicseen.html#new (http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,961.msg9338/topicseen.html#new)
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Hi Oztules.
I finally got to set the overvoltage protection in my PJ5000W LF. I used a zener diode as you wrote.
[attach=3]
I got only Uz = 3,9V, but it did not work. The voltage of about 4V at resistance marked "CUT if LOW" is so sensitive that the soldered diode voltage dropped to about 2V and the inverter was not running. You correctly point me toward. I replaced the resistor (10M) for about 800 k and on-chip voltage dropped from 4,1V to 3.7V.
[attach=4]
Overload protection is already ok
Thanks again
by the way, you do not know what's the second voltage labeled "CUT if HIGH " about 7.5V?
Resistance at this point is missing.
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I think the "cut if high" is part of the same voltage divider.. so you can push the limit the other way.
I had no joy with just changing the resistor value, as my charger is a home brew pwm. It sends very high/narrow current pulses when the batteries are nearly full... and this shuts down the unit.... if you have pwm, I expect you will suffer the same fate when the batteries near float. 5v6 zener works for me... but i needed to make a cut off device.
I had hoped that the batteries would stop the high voltage peaks.... but it does not suppress them for long enough for reasons i don't quite know...... so I did this.
Will do a story if necessary.
[attachimg=1]
The IC 393 is actually a 339
Here it is on test. Set to 60v.
The grid tie active goes through the relay (normally open contacts)... so it simply monitors the voltage , and shuts the active off to the grid tie on tripping. Hysteresis is 4v so it will re-engage the grid tie when it drops to 56v. The grid tie will have about 2-3 mins before it retries then.
[attachimg=2]
Here it is in it's margarine container for testing..
[attachimg=3]
....oztules
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Well by 11.30am, the relay tripped, grid tie stopped..... and the voltage dropped to 58v as the LV array was still active. The max input of the grid tie was 1520 watts. ( only one grid tie connected today). The LV array was around the 40 amp mark. (48v system )
It's 12.10 now, and the lv array has throttled back to about 25a...at around 60v so all working well at the moment.
Now the days seem longer and brighter, will have to back the system down to 58-59v perhaps to keep over charging under control.
They are flooded cells.
................oztules
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Hello Oz,
How are you, can I ask a question but I'll give you some history first.
I'm not living off the Grid but the Gird is getting expensive when it's heading towards $4k a year.
I looked at putting the Pool on Off Peak but the quote was $600 for the rewire and it is estimated it costs $1000 a year in Electricity.
I looked at getting a Grid Solar installed but with no Feed In Rebate here in Qld any more, questionable pricing and workmanship on installation I kept looking around.
A small business close to where I work were selling 250w 60 Bosch Cell Panels for $130, OK for Off Grid.
So I am putting together a system firstly to run the Pool, then what ever excess is left over like the outdoor Beer Fridge, LV Lights using 9 Panels, regulated to 24v and some Batteries,
I looked at DC Pumps but Cost. I have Timer, Pump, Chlorinator. Then the Solar Heater has it's own Pump that does not get used much all 240v.
So now I am looking for an Inverter and I know the Pumps take a bit to start per the Davey Brochure, I have a 150 & 300.
I looked at the later 4 x start PowerJacks and when I contacted the sellers through Ebay they were pushing that I need over the top Start Ratings out to 40kW and near $2000.
Their pages say they will not start Inductive Motors but your posts show they should not have a problem.
You have given the 8,000/32,000 PJ a good rap.
I am thinking of buying a 5,000/20,000W for just under $500 as I believe this will do the job.
What do you think ?
regards
Mike
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I assume the Davey is 150 and 300w pumps.
The LF units will start inductive loads without any fuss. The 5000w will run those loads all day without bothering the fan unless the weather is hot.
These things are both better and worse than the figures they claim. They are very tough, handle very high inductive loads and will run your stuff without complaint. They claim 5000w continuous, but really they mean 5000w for 12 seconds, probably 20000w for 1/2 second etc, Continuous is a function of the transformer size, and the one in that unit is good for 1.5-2kw max for continuous operation. The silicon part is easily good for 5kw continuous, but the transformer would need wicked cooling for that level long term.... and there we have it.
So it is a good honest performer with silly specs. As mentioned previously, you can mod them for anything you need to do.
I like the panel prices... do they send south?
For 24/7 you may need to use the inductor conversion, but the last 24, 5kw unit I bought for a bloke here already had that in it, so it's idle was already .7A@24v... or less than 18w... very good figures compared to their original units... by about 8 fold.
A solar pump would suit very well if you can handle daylight operation only, as you will need to burn up 4-6kwh each night for continuous operation.... batteries?
You should pick up the 5000w unit for 400 or less if your patient.
So don't worry it will start it without noticing.
If they programmed the chip more sensibly, they would have the perfect unit really. The 12 seconds should be 12 mins... and I would be happy. Instead I need to bypass some power around the current sense to push the big mig welder up to draw around 5kw for the 8000w unit, which will do it easily ( and run the house at the same time)
Induction motors behave just like a short circuited transformer at start up... hence the big start currents they speak of..... add the inrush currents for the first few cycles, and it is easy to see why the HF inverters really struggle. These LF units seem to do it without any trouble at all.
...............oztules
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Thanks Oz,
I like to make sure I have explained the Details.
Davey 150 is 18 Amp Start & 4.4A Run. The 300 is 28A Start & 7A Run.
I even had the Brother In Law take a Log of the 150 with his good gear which is attached.
Brochure was very close.
I just rang the Little Business down the road http://batterycentralbrisbane.com.au and he still has Single 250W Panels for $150.
He will do a Deal for Qty and some that don't work but could be fixed for a lot cheaper but anyone interested talk to them.
He does not want to get involved in Freight but there are ways.
I checked the Models on the ones I purchased per Photo attached and they were not on the approved Federal List for the Grid if that makes sense.
I think they pick them up at Auctions so he has a mixed bag of Voltages & Watts, so be careful.
regards
Mike
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ok looks like about 2000VA for the big one for 1650 watts.... power factor of maybe .8??for the motor... depends on if it is caps start cap run or just cap start... fiddling with the run cap may bring your pf closer to 1.... so VA can come down for the same power output.
This will be at the outer end of the heat range for the 5000w unit. Starting will be no problem, cooling might in your climate.
They had twin transformer ones in the 6000w range, and that would be fine, but I have also heard that the 6000w ones can come with a single transformer with an extra fan.
consistency is problematic apparently.
A fair chance you will get an 8000w unit for $600 if your careful in the bidding..... plenty of wiggle room there.... need a huge battery to run through the night, and more panels ( must run and charge at the same time )...... your looking at 24kwh to burn up each night ... so will need 29kwh of energy to charge that up each day.... but, gee...then you still need to run the power for daylight running
A solar pumping system may be a better option., no batteries, and up there a pretty fair chance of doing well with a 2hp motor on a mono pump, panels and controller... vastly cheaper and no maintenance but for brushes in motor. I have built some pretty big solar pumping systems down here for cattle water, and they are simple and easy to make... particularly on the mainland, as big DC motors can be easily obtained from cleaning equipment repair places. Lots of floor scrubbers get retired each year, and a lot of them have 2hp 36v motors in them.... plum for the job...... especially Advance scrubbers.
The biggest to date is 120psi@60lpm.... thats a fairly powerful system... you have no pressure to speak of comparatively, so if your at 35psi, instead of 120psi, up the volume accordingly.
Sent an email to those blokes for a pallet of panels and shipping, will see if they respond.
Am testing a standard 8000w unit at the moment, running 2 x 1500w grid ties into it every day, so 3kw loads for 5 hrs or so peak today I expect.
Transformers are still only 44C and power heat sinks are at 38C... air temp is 15C..... so the 8000w unit will do it without doubt... rarely hear a fan.., the 5000 I am confidant will run it fine, but 100% duty cycle will require watching the temps until your satisfied it is staying below 50C, maybe adding a fan if not happy.
...............oztules
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Actually looking at it from an economics point of view,you would be better using a grid tie system of 4kw or so to provide the offset for running it for maybe 12 hrs per day.
No batteries or inverter, and just time switch the pump for daylight hours only. It would cover the pumps etc and the house use during the day, and would be better in every way I suspect.
................oztules
ps I bought a few pallets of those panels too....they will be used for water pumping over here, so CEC approval is not a priority... at all.
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Hello Oz,
My biggest concern was the Start Current with the 5/20K PJ Inverter.
You have settled my mind on that.
The Run cycle I'll do as you said keep and eye on the Temp until I am Happy.
One of those Pumps has a Noisy Bearing so when I have it apart I can check the Cap but I bet it is just Start.
The good thing about the Pool is in Winter, I only need to run the Filter Pump 1-2 hrs a day especially if I put the Bubble Wrap Blanket on it.
This time of Year 3 hrs is fine and Summer I go to 6-8 hrs a day and I'll time it to either side of Midday.
It's all Water Temp, Algae growth and Chlorine Production needed.
The Solar Heat Pump only cycles on when the Water Temp on the Roof is higher than the Pool.
The On time only needs to be a couple of Minutes to flush that Heat out of the Pipes/Mat.
Then you wait till it heats up again. I didn't even use it last year.
I have some Ideas to flush out where the Filter and Solar Pumps never come on together.
My 9 Panels on test are putting out 8 kW a day at the moment.
The Batteries are there to provide Start Current and I hope the Panels will then take over with a little left to keep the Batteries up.
As for those Cloudy Days I still have the Grid and I was thinking of a change over Relay on the 240v side controlled by Battery Voltage.
I believe I will need a timer circuit to control the Hysteresis so it does not keep switching Grid Inverter Grid Inverter in short cycles.
I was also thinking in the evening when the Panels stop producing I switch back to Grid just for the 24 hr Timer which must draw less than 10W.
That way the Inverter can go to Sleep and not draw much from the Batteries using the same change over Relay.
Still working on that Idea but a couple of my Regulators have a settable Load On Time for Lighting after the Panels stop producing.
A work in progress.
Hope the guy gave you a good deal on those Panels.
If you want I can take Photo's of what he is Shipping you.
regards
Mike
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Yep start is not a problem, as we can overcome any shortage of high end control by fiddling the current sense. The difference between a 5000 and a 15kw control card is only the software settings, and the resistors across the current transformer for sensing.
The fets are big enough to look after themselves.... so if the original software is a bit wanting, a piece of wire or a resistor will solve the problem.
Continuous running is a transformer problem. A small transformer can pretend to be a big one... if it is cooled enough. or has a light duty cycle.
I had no idea of your duty cycle, but now you have clarified it, it is not in anyway near what I feared.... but 8kwh will be cutting things too fine for 6 hrs @ 2kw draw?? in summer.
..............oztules
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My 9 Panels on test are putting out 8 kW a day at the moment.
They must be freekin' enormous panels! That's 889W each!!
(Or did you mean 8 kWh/day? If so, why didn't you say it? kW != kWh)
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Ok, now testing the next generation of my powerjack conversions.
15kw power board and power card
Very big transformer. good convection cooling.
Here is the unit as testing.
[attachimg=1]
the grid tie is running .... just as it is very overcast ( raining actually), so the two watt readings are very different.
Some of the grid tie is running the house load, so only a small power is adding to it.
The rest is coming from the normal array, and it is going to the battery.
This is the new transformer, up to 5kw tested so far... barely any sound at all.. Epoxied windings.
[attachimg=2]
Here is the larger 15kw power card from power jack, it is the same elctrically as the smalle 8000w etc cards, but just bigger board and heat sink.
[attachimg=3]
The two temp gauges are on the very top, the RH side is the heat sink temp after running the house all night and into the day.... no fan so far.
The left hand side is the transformer after the last 24 hrs or more.
Can't ask for more than that, silent running and no fan thus far.
[attachimg=4]
.....................oztules
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Hi Oztules many many thanks for restoring my faith in the PJ. I’m retesting things again.
But I have been warned by her indoors, if this new TV dies I’m in real trouble, she will cut down my rations to 0, O dear. Once the pressure was off I did repair the old TV. The fault was one of those surface mounted dead fly things.
(1) One thing I will have trouble with is my PV connects to the grid via the link wire between the meter and my main S/W,
So just pulling the fuse on the mains incomer will get rid of the 240v feed, but the neutral will be solid to the rest of the grid.
With the grid they try to keep neutral at earth potential, but TRY is the right word to use don’t you think.
I can’t think of an easy way round this problem.
I just cant fit a double pole Isolator, as this position is no mans land over here, the meter man can get rather hot under the collar if you play with his wiring past your main box.
(2) I can’t for the life of me see how to get the lid back on without the choke pressing hard on the lid. I know what you are going to say, WHO said the lid has to go back on. So I rewound the choke using flat braided flexible strap the type used to connect say a car battery 170a 25mm rating, its flattish and winds very easily, from Ebay 221537256689 its 24inches long, the choke now goes in with little effort. Oztules that was a fantastic link you sent me, you in full flight butchering a TV. The comment you should never be aloud to own a soldering ion, well all I can say is keep the good work up, your a man after my own heart, great.
(3) I found this little plastic spacer (see picture) any ideas where it came from??.
Ps. I think I’ve found its home, at the back of the lower negative terminal next to c30 there is a screw missing, all other screws holding the pcb down have a metal washer and two fibre wasters, I suspect in this position no fibre washers should be used so you earth out one side of c30 can you please advise me.
Sorry for the novel, many thanks your a Gent. Steve.(http://)
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1.
Over here we need a double pole switch for change over..... but the fact that the units are earthed.... and the neutral is earthed for the grid....... it is really a waste of time lifting the neutral... I still do, but it makes no difference at all.
So breaking the active only will not materially effect the isolation which you seek..... a double pole would only achieve the same thing if your grid tie is earthed anyway.... ie it is still joined at the earth.... hard wired in the meter box.
It is not practically possible to have dangerous voltages in the neutral with respect to earth... Even a double pole will not isolate the grid tie from the grids neutral, it is still achieved via the earth.... although the grid ties neutral would then be floating. The moment if connects to the PJ as the house circuit, it is automatically connected to the MEN earth system... back to square 1.
As a general rule, the innards of the PJ are floating with respect to earth, as will be the grid tie.... the boxes will be "earthed" internally, but not to the AC rails
They only get sorted to ground when connected to the MEN earth system via the feed cables.
2. I simply undid the transformer bolts, and shifted one forwards and one back, and the choke sits between them nicely.
3. no picture to be seen, but I assume your right . If you have 5 screws in, thats enough anyway... just make sure the washers associated with the screw are not floating around in there. There are two screws that should be grounding the filter caps, but they are only there for rf noise suppression... and won't effect operation is any other way if not done properly.
...............oztules
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Thanks Oztules as normal you have put my mind at rest.
If any one goes down the route I suggested i.e. braided strap from Ebay, get the guy make you one 29 inches long, that would save a join.
Do you think I will have any troubles running my Sunny boy 3600w Hf inverter off grid, I know its a rubbish unit, but over here (England) we have to get all the gear installed by so called experts, (and as you know an expert is a drip under pressure), the rubbish they put in is what you have to live with, and they are Animals, no really they are.
That’s a very good thought about looking for the other screws and washers, I will investigate.
When I’m running on the grid I have installed a unit called a (Solamiser) Ebay this unit feeds proportionally only the power that would normally go back to the grid to say run an immersion heater, I have connected its output to a 13a plug socket, If there is only say 1000w of PV being generated, I plug in a kettle 2000w type, It take a little longer to boil but It totally free guys.
Many thanks Oztules for all your help. Steve.
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Thanks Oztules for all your explanations, I have at last with your help fired up the PJ to wake up the sonny boy grid tie inverter and charge the batteries with pv power, But it wont kick it into gear, it comes up with a fault (PE connect missing). When I test things out I find there is about 240v on the grid tie live and neutral, but also 120v ish to earth on both the live and neutral, as you said its a crappy grid tie inverter, can you suggest a cure. Steve3
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G'day all
I'm new to the forum, but have followed for a few months, thought it was time I came in for a yarn. I bought a PJ LF 8000/48, did the mod and now have 0.4A no load current, though I could only source a 55mm Core, it seems to be going ok. many thanks to Oztules for that, now looking at getting another PJ as a back up. I am having the same problem as others with the over voltage cut out, seems the spikes from my homebrew boost converters are upsetting the powerjack, though I'm still working on temp. compensation of the charge voltage. I will keep the zener / resistor mod in mind if all else fails.
cheers Dave
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I've been too lazy to do anything about it right now.... last thing was no zener, but 700k across the same point instead.
Have not even found out/tested how high it will go before turn off, as that is controlled by my external solar regulator I built and the grid tie shut off.
Will get back to it one day perhaps, but it just works so well.... I have no fire in the belly at the moment for change that dose not seem urgent.... at all
Yes I'm slack.
...................oztules
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Thanks Oztules for all your explanations, I have at last with your help fired up the PJ to wake up the sonny boy grid tie inverter and charge the batteries with pv power, But it wont kick it into gear, it comes up with a fault (PE connect missing). When I test things out I find there is about 240v on the grid tie live and neutral, but also 120v ish to earth on both the live and neutral, as you said its a crappy grid tie inverter, can you suggest a cure. Steve3
I'm not sure I follow... does the PJ wake up the sunnyboy....... if it wakes does it charge at all, or does it, just not find the panels. Experience with LF units don't help here, as they only use the solar panels as the drive for the logic, and not until they are to connect to the grid do they exchange any watts at all from the AC side. They won't even wake up with grid alone... they must have panel voltage to even boot.
I have no idea how the HF units work, never seen one in real life...
I will have to assume they are just a buck/boost converter directly on line to the panels and the PJ. I say this because I see they need to earth the panel surrounds because of capacitive and inductive currents from the cells to the frame... in the LF units, no earth is necessary, as there is no modulated DC in the panel.
I am guessing the 120v to ground, is actually from the tiny caps for noise. They go from the acitve to ground to neutral. So an emf will present if there is no low impedance to ground... ie if the neutral gets grounded, then there will be 240v from active to ground and 0v from neutral to ground.
If for some reason, your ground is floating then i would expect a voltage of half the output to ground to either output rail.
When I drive the house,...the neutral is tied to ground as the MEN earth system demands this neutral ground tie.
With some HF inverters, doing this will cause destruction.... one has to assume HF grid tie inverters can handle this fine... or they could not be used.
I believe the sunny boy is a quality product.... maybe it does not want to play with down market PJ grids. The PJ gives a very very good rendition of a sine wave, and have never found the grid ties to not play with them.
............oztules
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Hi Oztules sorry to be a pain but I do value your input.
The Sunny boy wakes up, the display cycles though the two strings of panels, showing the two voltages generated, but 0 amps in both cases. The display shows a picture of a switch feeding to the grid this is open, at the bottom It says (PE connect missing). I'm trying to measure the earth loop impedance in my work shop outside the main building, but both my meter for this are quite old and the earth trip switches off.
I have also been trying four times or more to get some info out of the chinky in Ireland where I purchased the PJ. They are driving me mad and not understanding a word I was saying.
My last Email to them went something like this.
hello sir. (from them)
sorry, we confuse the meaning.
(2) Next to C30 the screw is missing??, this is at the back of the lower
negative terminal, please look at one of your inverters.----we checked the
detail, can't find out the location of C30, could you help to take a photo
to show us, thanks.
(3) Tell me is there two fibre washer fitted to the screw in your inverter,
yes or no please??.-----could you help to take a photo to show us, thanks.
(4) Can you modify inverter to show DC amps on LCD display.------sorry, it
can't
(5) Can you please send me a circuit diagram of the 8000w LF
inverter.------sorry, we can't provide.
- rayjunglepower
So I wrote to them again.
Hi Mr rayjunglepower
I have tried to explain things to you three or four
times but you do not seem to have a very good grasp of English, I am trying
to work out if you are Chinese Japanese or F******* Peakanese.
Steve.
If you need any more info let me know Oz, I might hear back from Ireland (whoops ) tying the PJ N to earth in some way I would Think is the answer, stay with me Oz please. Steve.
I can remember many years ago having a similar problem, with a petrol generator, how did I fix it, I don't know. Steve.
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Hmm, What is the voltage at the sunnboy ac input/output terminals..... 230 volts or so?
Where exactly have you connected to the PJ??.......... to the output power points?
If you have wired to the terminal block... this is for shore input.... not output. It cannot work connected to the terminal block, Has to be to the power point output, that you plug appliances into.
The sunnyboy seems to be unable to see grid... not panels from your description... I assume it is because it has no 240v on it's ac output terminals
I don't see the earthing stuff making any material difference. I know a bloke in South Australia using a sunny boy in this configuration.
Plug the sunny into your real grid check it still works, if not check internal ac fuse in the sunnyboy and repeat tests on the real grid.
When you get it to run on the real grid, lift the earth and repeat the test. If it still works, then it is not an earthing fault problem.
The PJ creates a real grid, of very clean power to replace the grid, it must work, and there must be a simple explanation here... I suspect no ac going from the pj to the sunny.
Some circuits here.... http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,780.0.html
The PJ display is an AC only display. It uses a current transformer and a transformer as the sensors, with it's supply regulated from the power supply on the control card. It cannot see the battery in this setup, never mind the programming in it.
..........oztules
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Hi Oztules When I go back to the grid the sonny boy and the house works well.
L to N about 240v, N to earth about 0.
As you say (plugged) into the PJ the house works well,?
The voltage at the sonny boy terminals are L to N about 240v ish.
Live to earth about 120v, N to earth about 120v ish. There is a good earth at the sonny boy.
As I said before the sonny boy is seeing voltage from the panels but not switching on the final sw on the display to connect to the grid, I think it is looking at the high N voltage and thinks the earth is missing, the display says (PE connect missing).
Because I was worried about the neutral isolation I have fitted double pole SW just like you.
I'm stumped Oz.
Maybe check the output of your box please, don't do anything drastic, ha.
Lets hope the chinkys from Ireland come up with cure, But I don't think they will, more chance if we keep talking, they could not even find C30 in the PJ.
Just had a thought Oz, Tomorrow I will run a temp E wire to main E terminal in the house, to my workshop outside where the PJ lives I will try anything, ha. Steve.
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If you can run the house with the powerjack, then simply shut off the main switch, run the house with the PJ, and turn on the grid tie. Then whatever earthing you have on the main switchboard will be the earthing regime for the new "grid".... it should be MEN system.
ie simply replace the grid with the power jack.
At the moment your earth is floating, and there is no connection between neutral and ground... the sunny sees this, and being non-galvanically isolated, would see this as a problem. Mine are galvanically isolated, and see no such problem.... but my neutral is grounded in the switchboard when the generator switch is thrown, it floats until then. But once connected to the house, shares the same neutral bonding points to ground as did the grid.
At some point in this system you will have to connect your neutral to your earth point, as you are not getting this in your current setup.
Your main switchboard should have a brass bar with earth and neutral wires bonded together, and then grounded... this should be in your circuit too.
For a test, place a 5 amp fuse between the neutral of the PJ and the earth point. This will give you a test bond point. If there is a conflict between your choice of N and the ground, the fuse will blow... if you picked the right one, it will give you something to test the sunny with...... but it will give you 240 to ground from the active, and 0v from neutral to ground.
The sunny is designed to run into an inverter ( sunny island) for the reverse battery charging thing.
........john
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Your main switchboard should have a brass bar with earth and neutral wires bonded together, and then grounded... this should be in your circuit too.
Yes your right
The three systems used in the UK are: TN–S, TN–C–S (PME) or TT. However, because TT systems are not directly earthed they are prohibited for low voltage public supply in the UK.
TN–S
TN–C–S
TT
TN–C
IT
T = Earth. Direction connection with Earth (From the French word for ground: Terre).
N = Neutral. Connection to earth via the supply network.
S = Separate.
C = Combined.
I = Isolated. No connection with earth, unless through a high impedance.
This is what it is all about over here John/OZ, the PME system you talk about bonded N is done at the mains well before the meter, so when you kill your double pole SW this bonding is lost, my system is not bonded N in the house it is done at the mains transformer maybe half a mile away, or in the street underground. If I could see a diagram of the PJ I would just earth the N in the PJ and have no fears, but I will try your test with a fuse then let you know if things go pop, I will use a 3 amp fuse I'm chicken, but really it depends what other electronics they have on the output wiring. Steve.
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Hi John I did your test with a 2a fuse, the 2a remand healthy, great, so far so good, next wire up a plug top with the N linked to the E terminal plugged that into the PJ, SW the inverter on, nipped up into the loft to check the sunny boy and its working 100%. Rechecked the inverter and its charging the batteries are charging 30 to 40 a, I did send an email to the chinkys in Ireland to see if they recommend linking the N inside the Sonny boy lets see what they say, must now find an easy way to stop over charging the batteries, well done son your a hero and a gentleman, what a saga, where would I be without you, many many thanks John. Steve.
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That why it called oztules wonderous creations.
Cheers
gww
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"must now find an easy way to stop over charging the batteries"
Try reply #60 http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,902.60.html
It has been running for a bit now... works perfectly.... and simple.
.............oztules
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hey oz, did you change out that over voltage resistor or just put 700k (680k?) in parallel with the existing one?
I think the PJ has temp. compensation on the O-V as I'm seeing the alarm more now its getting warmer Ctl QLD 30 ish deg C
about to reduce the charge voltage, 58v to 56.5v (until I can sort the temp. comp. from the reg.) & hope that cures it.
dave
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No, I just piggy backed it parallel
Have not seen OV and temp as a couple...... seem not related to me, but , the programming is out of our hands..... we can only effect the outcome by masking the inputs the computer sees.
A 5v6 zener across the resistor will stop any over voltage ever occurring, but then there is no safety...... which does not bother me, and the onboard charger will not know how it is doing either.... again.... I don't care, but others may.
My other gear looks after the over voltage, and the on board charger is not for me.
I have flooded cells, and would not be happy with less than 58v
................oztules
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yep, similar situation for me, not using the charger bit of the PJ, external gear doing voltage control and all that, just using it as an inverter, off grid where I am (Trojan T105 Flooded x 8), but the idea of plumbing in a grid tie system to what I've got ......... any recommendations on a small & cheap grid tie inverter, say 1-1.5kw xfmr coupled?, I'll have to get some temp gauges on the PowerJack so I can rest easy with the OV mod (only got 1 PJ now, and I need it!).
I like your work, thanks for your responses, very helpful, and appreciated
..............dave
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If in Australia.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-1-5kw-SOLAR-GRID-INVERTER-invertor-panel-meter-connected-/251649481782?pt=AU_Solar&hash=item3a977a5c36
or http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-1-5kw-SOLAR-GRID-INVERTER-69-99-Melb-battery-invertor-panel-meter-connected-/161425167689?pt=AU_Solar&hash=item2595b09549
an aerosharp would be slightly better production wise.
I use these things for monitoring internal transformer and low side heat sinks.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LCD-Refrigerator-Freezer-Fridge-Digital-Thermometer-Temperature-50-110-c-SL-/301246430073?pt=AU_Decor_Furnishing&hash=item4623afbb79
I run 24 t105-re
..............oztules
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thanks for the info, Oz, I must be looking in all the wrong places, I'll be buying a few of those gauges I think,
cheers Dave
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Hello Oz,
I made an offer on a 5000/20000W PJ and it was accepted.
It arrived Friday but it is a 6000/24000W, great, except for the case length.
I thought I would be in trouble with room in the Electrical Box I made but it's all good.
I was a happy Man when that Pool Pump Kicked into life.
The Batteries handle the Start current, the Solar Panels maintained 24 Volts.
The Inverter does not notice the Beer Fridge start.
The Fan started after 10 minutes and then Air out of the Inverter was only 5 Deg C above Ambient.
Thanks for your advise.
Have you seen those Panels you Purchased ?
Mike
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40 arrived on the island today, should get to see then later today or tomorrow morning.... let you know.
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3 broken from lousy packaging, but the rest were good panels.. happy overall.
Even the three busted ones put out 6.5amps or so, and will be used for electric fencing instead... way over driven, but what the heck.
................oztules
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/me longs for images ::)
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Good news on the panels, Oz
Got the temp compensation sorted on the solar reg, drops the charge voltage a tad when the ambient temp rises, PJ was alot happier but the alarm was cutting in and dropping out when the batt voltage got to 57.6V (regulating voltage @30degC), So I took a punt and did the resistor/Over voltage mod on the PJ. Original voltage measured across 10Meg 3.6V, Added 1M across, now 90mV, I guess that'll do it. Can't wait for those gauges to arrive. pic of my inductor mod, if anyone is interested, sticks out of the hole where the power meter used to be. plastic cover over. (power meter was U/S)
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Looks the part.
I must do some real research on what resistor I need to go across the 10m to get some semblance of control and still not have a shut down i don't want or need.
My controller is pretty grungy, and the pwm freq is fairly low, so the spikes are probably significant... must get some time allocated for this dammit.
Wolv, the broken panels are out on another farm down the south of the island.... may never get a picture in the short term at least.... will try to remember.
Also if I can get some time I will get some pics of the new controller/charger... I did mean to do an article on both the 15kw inverter and the 3kw charge controller and charger.......... and the grid tie controller,shutdown system..... gee where does the time go???
Interestingly, if you set the grid tie controller to say 60v, and the solar control for 58v, the hysteresis on the grid tie is such, that it bulks up to 60v, the (off grid) grid tie shuts off, and the solar controller maintains the absorb at 58v till the sun starts to fail.....at 56v, the grid tie starts up again, trying to get the last of the days sun No point in pretending to float, as cyclic batteries neither need that function, nor is it even remotely called for with cyclic use flooded cells on solar in my mind..... happy to entertain a counter argument though, but thats how i see it. Flooded cells will thrive on incidental over charge, but die on under charge.
As I can make over 700 liters of <1ppm water every day, water for the batteries is not an issue.
..............oztules
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now there's a question I forgot to ask, how often do you get to water the t105REs?
I've only had my (8 x T105RE) bank up for 3 months, still looking pretty good for water, despite lots of bubble and charge every day.
I went flooded as I like the idea of being in control of the water level and a little bit of resilience to over charge. (and of course the price difference).
When I get the next PJ, I'll be doing a little reverse engineering as well, see what we can hack / find out, I like the idea of a decent enclosure, lots of lamps and meters etc. jeez I'm starting to have fun here!
cheers...Dave
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I figure that every three months is easily enough for the t105-re batteries, as they are larger than the normal t105.... so they can hold more water.
I am far happier to over charge than under charge.
Here are the latest mods to the inverter... more gauges.....
[attachimg=1]
Now we can see the grid tie shut-off circuit board on the front door as well.
I have successfully managed to make a complete shambles of the inside.... and I did have high hopes of making it neat too
Just didn't happen. The fans have not come on on the last few weeks other than a 5 second check it seems to do every few hours to see if the fan is there and functional i guess.
[attachimg=2]
This is the charge and charge controller combi.
The knob controls the voltage pwm point for max voltage.
[attachimg=3]
Most of the stuff in there are old fashioned transformers and chokes ( to limit the current to 40 amps or thereabouts).
The solar controller is incorporated in there as well... you can see the hot glue holding it to one of the chokes from the inspires.
[attachimg=4]
..oztules
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Awesome machines, Oz, I went for a totally abstract method of one mppt per panel, each can handle about 5A @ 58V, they're simple boost converters, and regulate panel voltage @ 78% of OC voltage (32V¬ish) until charge voltage gets up there, only 4 on line now, ( 2 more coming soon), but I've seen 3.2 A @57V into the battery (182W) from a 190W panel, so quite happy with that. Charge voltage controlled by the contraption with the lcd display (Gen indicating -9.74A is an error btw, clunky firmware!)
cheers ... Dave
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Looks to me you have it well in hand there.
I use 60 cell 250 watt panels now, and that makes the mppt part far less useful, in fact when it gets up to equalise, it can only scratch up 20 amps or less, as we are way past the pmax voltage.
Down lower ( 55v etc,) 60 amps is possible, more usually in the 40-50amp range..
Most charging seems to be in the 53-57v range, which is not too far short of the max power of the panels anyway, so I don't see me making the an mppt to work on those panels.
The HV panels have the mppt of their 1.5kw grid tie unit anyway, so I don't have to do anything there either.....most days the batteries are back to full by 11am .... so the urge to improve things is not immediate..... maybe by next winter I might see a reason, but I have way too much RE power available from the looks of it, and I have just gotten another 10kw of panels......looks like they will end up pumping water for cows for the neighbors.
................oztules
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Yes, its getting there, though, if I had the space to accommodate enough panels to do the charging the way you have, I think I would go that way.
Too much capacity is something I am dreaming of, and when I've finished building here, I may achieve that.
I went the mppt route as I was limited on roof area, and what I have, experiences partial shading in summer (early morning /late afternoon), and of course, to maximise what I could squeeze out of those panels.
It was a fair bit of work to get a usable reliable set up, maybe a little over complex, but the system is still young, I reckon the tech. stuff is mostly done and now its down to fine tuning and building the system up.
Immediate plan is for 10x 250w panels on mppts, another 8 x t105s and 6 x 200w panels through a grid tie (not forgetting a heavily hacked, modded and pimped up powerjack ). That should keep my machinery turning.
I've learned alot about what can be achieved thanks to yours and others work on this forum (transformer hacks rock!).
I guess that's what we're here for.
cheers ..Dave
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The 6000lf should have two transformers in it.
never seen a 6KW single transformer one. 5kw unit has only 1 tranny.
My 6000 has two "3kw" transformers.
Hello, can you confirm if the 6kw has the same transformers as the 8kw, with the 8kw just having bigger drivers to the same transformer ?
Regards
jamie
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No Jamie I cannot confirm anything like that.
It seems to be a lucky dip as to how they configure the units.
It is likely the 6000w unit will have 1 less fet/bank... but that can be easily added too.
The programming is slightly different, OR the resistor across the current transformer is different for the different power settings.
The transformers will be 1 plus a fan or 2 and no extra fan, or even 2 plus an extra fan ... impossible to tell from all reports.... they differ markedly on whats inside... but they all seem to work fine.... will be good when they standardize them a bit.
They seem to have the idle current sorted out in the newer ones, ad that is a very good thing.
The 6w unit will run a normal off grid house just fine... but not the hot water as well as other heavy usage stuff concurrently. It is not s "real" 6kw continuous unit by any means.... unless you do a few mods, then it shure is..... but 3kw is realistic, with very very high surges available to run compressors etc.
Prefer my own transformer.
.............oztules
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Thank you for the quick reply.
I now understand, Im looking at getting the 8kw unit this week, and doing your mod if needed.
I already have 9 x 250w panels, 2 x pmmt charges on the way here.
I hope to run most house hold item accept aircon, stove and dishwasher.
thanks
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It will run the house, inc the dishwasher, probably not useful to run the stove because of huge drain on the batteries for short stints......, but would, and will run the aircon if it is the modern inverter style.... but not all at once without mods, and bigger transformers.... but your panels are to small for air con for any period, thats where a big panel, and grid tie helps a lot too.
Hopefully they now have the idle current under control, and you will need to change nothing there.... hope...
If you have trouble with the chargers for some reason triggering OV, then thats stoppable too.
.............Oztules
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Hello Oztules,
I'd like to add my thanks to that of others for posting your powerjack experiments here - I've just acquired an 8000LF 24v 230v 50hz, and am quite happy so far. You should be charging PJ a commission ;D - I wouldn't've dared buy one of these if it hadn't been for your posts.
just in case you're wondering: it has 2 transformers with a fan squeezed between them and little ferrite torroids on the leads to the transformers, and has a no-load draw ~ 1A. Having read some of the earlier posts I thought I'd take the lid off and check what I'd got.
Ideally I would like a lower idle draw so I was thinking of ordering one of those E core pairs that you linked for Steve3 (I'm in the UK too), but wondered if it would gain me much as I guess from what you've said in earlier posts it still needs to supply magnetisation current to two transformers?
I have a plan to possibly use a grid-tie inverter to connect distant pv or windmill - in which case I should install the Ecore anyway do you think?
Thanks again
mab
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I bought the 10000WLF 48v version of the powerjack, it has 2 5000W transformers. Idle current is 0.7 A. Fuses are 15A for incomming and 20A for load; thus max around 3600W for continuous load, much smaller then I expected. Is there anything I can do to upgrade this as transformers should be big enough and I understand that electronics should be able to handle this too?
Wiring inside looks thin for specs; 40000W piek looks unlikely, also transferr relay is only 30A. This is a bit of a worry as I want to hardwire it as an UPS for a fish life support system; pumps/blowers/compressor around 2 kW together. Can I bypass the unit automatically when on standby?
Also as far as I know standard sockets as on the unit shouldn't be used for currents above 10A, thus these are serious undersized too.
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Mab, looks like you are already at the 25w mark, so not a lot to get from there.... I'd probably leave well enough alone for now..
They seem to have enough uhenries so you should be able to run the grid tie as is.
Phri,
20a will get you closer to 4800 watts.
40 kw is doable for short bursts, as the fets can handle 600 amp surge x 6 or 3600 amps@48v... or near 180000 watts... don't bet the house on it though.
2kw should be a walk in the park for it, as the 10kw unit should have the oversize heat sinks in it. I use that power card with a 15kw control card and home brew transformer, and have never seen it struggle running all sorts of things full time.
Sockets for 10a are 2400 watts a piece, and you say the drain should be only 2kw, so you should be good to go.... the 30 amp input relay is over 6000w... you are nowhere near this as yet.... but not sure I would feel cool using that kind of power in that relay....
My concern is the ups part of this. I have not had a good experience with these units in the unattended ups role, maybe it is just my luck, but that is the only concern I have for these units now.... having to turn off the units before the charging occurs, and turning it off before releasing the shore power.... it may be that my units did not have the programming to do this securely, but the instructions clearly stated to turn it off first.... and I blew it up when I didn't turn it off before disconnecting the shore power.
So if yours specifically has the ups function in the advert, check with the seller what if any precautions need to be followed.... I may be completely wrong too, but thats my experience. No problem changing over from inverter to shore power, but blown up from shore power charging to inverter mode.... but not always.... maybe 1 in 10 times before the bang.
This is what you bought it for, so quizz them.. They are generally pretty good with back up. I think they have become more responsive and less defensive now that a few sites are giving them credit for their LF range, and they do seem to be trying to improve it ...... the HF range can rot on the shelf in my books though.
bypass of the unit on standby is simple .
Luck with it.
......oztules
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cheers Oz, - that saves me the cost of the E-core.
m
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I tried to get some info from the manufacturer on the UPS function and they seems to ignore me.
I tested the UPS function probably 20 times; with load, without load, with inductive load and it all still works.
The 10 Kw lf inverter doesn't have a static bypass build in meaning; inverter off or malfunction no power even when the mains are fine. Thus very risky to run essential services through the unit.
I intend to wire the unit with a relay (contactor) which switches the load from mains to UPS output, when mains go off line. This also avoids heavy loads going through the ups unit when mains are on-line. Thus break before make contacts and no delay. My main loads are inductive as they are motors from pumps, thus they will still rotate when switching which will lower surge current. Any advice/comment on this configuration?
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The original design of these things had very lossy transformers, with lots of leakage... consequently they did not present as a dead short on start up. Mine is particularly tight, and on start up will nearly always blow 30 amp mains fuses in an instant, just to start them up for testing the windings etc. The can use up to 60 times their normal running currents in this configuration.
This probably has got a lot to do with mine not being able to recover from battery charging to inverter mode... the transformer is just too stiff to drive instantly at full tilt, and destroys the fets in a heart beat... and that s no mean feat. 15kw and beyond won't do it, so it must be huge surge at start up if it hits full tilt first up.
The power jack transformers are better/tighter coupled than the original E-I units in the power stars etc..., and may not present as sever a load as mine do on change over, this may explain why I cannot get the thing to stop blowing up if I don't switch off when finished charging... I need ( very badly) the soft start it does.
Motors and inductive loads seem not to effect these things, they will just run over the back emf of the motors and tell em what they should be doing....
Your cross over relay will be fine. I can cross from grid to off grid with a 100 amp cross over switch (DPST) Even at 5kw or more, it seems to take it in it's stride..... does not seem to care what is running at the time.... water pumps, hair driers, bread makers, jugs, whatever.... I don't have to think what is running... it just does it without a sound or hiccup.
.....oztules
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Anybody tried the newer units with standard lower idle current as source for a grid connected solar inverter?
What is best; using a mppt charger direct from solar cells to batteries, subsequently feed the powerjack or; use a cheap grid connected inverter (2.5 kW) connected to the powerjack and load. Cost will be close mppt charger vs solar inverter.
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I haven't tried those ones personally.. but they should be the same ( all the electronics are, and the filters perform the work the same as the e cores )
The other question...... Depends on your loads and how they line up with the solar day.
I think the combination of the battery direct and grid tie is the best of both worlds. If your day loads are of some consequence, then the grid tie is the best, as it gives you a very potent daytime inverter.... if the suns out, you get your 2.5kw continuous from the gird tie direct to your loads, and this means you can drive very hefty loads for long periods in the daytime if you so chose.... ie you get the kws of the grid tie and the kws of the inverter, plus the massive surge of the inverter..... bit like running a generator on the expensive brands for extending the power out of the inverter.
I use this function every day for driving the hot water, washing machine etc etc... It means if there is at least a bit of sun, or brightish cloud, the power for the hot water unit is easily supplied from the grid tie, as well as some for charging. The direct battery charging from the "normal arrays" takes care of the batteries 60-80 amps@50-60 volts..... but my system is usually 90% charged and hot water charged ( 4kwh?) by 9.30-10.30am most days at this time of year.... but I have heaps of solar panel... it is the cheapest thing around now days. Recently got 10kw for 5000 dollars....power to burn even when it rains all day.
At this time of year, once the hot water is done, I can run a 1.5kw mono cp1600water pump and pump water all day for the grass areas needing it. The batteries and inverter do not see these as the grid tie drives them without bothering the inverter with that load.... can run it all day for free.... thats worthwhile.... and still some extra for the batts or other loads as they turn up.
Most days there is at the very least least 30kwh of power not used. If very overcast ( 8/8 all day and double cloud layers), I would need most of this to fill the bank and hot water .... but that s very rare.
So, if you have plenty of panels, then Off-grid tie to them, it is probably more efficient as you can use the power direct..... and if in Aust, a decent grid tie is only 50-100 dollars for 2kw or so ( I bought 10 1.5kw units for $400 and another 12x 1.5kw units for less than 1000 dollars)..... much cheaper than a multi kw mppt direct unit.
i have so much power, I don't bother to mppt my direct charging panels.... as I use low voltage panels ( 60 cells per "24v" panel @ 8amps + ), so a mppt would be marginal anyway.... and the controller costs virtually nothing to make for a 80-90amp 60v unit.... rather buy more panels than throw money at electronics or tracking arrays..... now days with 50c/watt panels CEC approved, trackers and fancy controllers are a useless impediment to a rock solid system.... something else to go wrong, and less surface area available on a cloudy day... you can't beat surface area when the chips are down..... and when it's sunny .... anything works anyway.
Be aware, you still need to have some way to shut the grid tie down when the batts are over voltage. I don't think the power jack likes voltage much over 62v. ( 48v system)
My experience is that you home grid voltage will rise as the batteries get fully charged ( within 10%), and so the voltage will rise to 252v or there abouts, and the grid tie will stop anyway....
I have a cut out built in the inverter box that shuts power down to the grid tie if battery voltage exceeds 59v anyway... as well as. Generally, the over voltage grid will shut it off, but sometimes, the battery voltage will turn it off first.... depends on loads , and inputs and SOC of the battery bank... ie if your banging in 100 amps or so, the voltage may rise above 59v, but the grid volts will still be low as the grid tiw is being used for the batteries, not for driving the grid voltage higher.... then the battery voltage cut off works first.
...............oztules
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Hello from Germany,
I would like to place a 8000W LF power jack inverter on a boat (12V).
I worry about what I have found here concerning the idle current.
Having only basic low-voltage experience, I would not be able to make the changes myself.
Unless, someone has a description how to do it FOR DUMMYS (like me).
Or sell me a ready assembled torroid (or whatever it is...)
And, last but not least, does the unit look like it would withstand salty air for long time?
Thanks for your help in advance,
Plamen
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The new ones seem to have the small torroid rings in place now, so thats done.
Sea air is what I have here on the island I live on.... but it is still not a boat.
That said, they are aluminum case, but they do have fan cooling if your going to push it.
So it would require opening up and spraying your favorite waterproofing spray ( conformal coating) for electrical gadgetry in your part of the world ( CRC or equivalent as a rudimentary beginning ).
If well sprayed or treated, it should make the distance... this includes terminals, and exposed metal anywhere.
Without conformal coating of some sort, they would not last too long if the fan runs for any extended period, and corrosion everywhere will become apparent.
HF pure sine units are now so cheap from china, it may be worth using a new one of them each season. Corrosion will get them too if not protected from the damp salty air, although I have seen a lot of electronics last a long time on some boats, but if spray is a possibility... not so much... every boat is different.
The cray boats and trawlers over here are packed with electronics now days, and the gear seems to last surprisingly well on the bigger boats.
...............oztules
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Thank you so much for helping me....
I got the user manual .pdf, and it say's the following :
"keep the inverter off when battery is charging..."
Is this true, or only a poor translation?
I would have many 12V DC power sources on the boat : engine alternator, solar, wind, shore power charger, gasoline DC generator.
Does it mean, when the battery bank is under charging from one of these sources, I may not run the inverter?
I wonder, how the inverter will determine if the battery bank is just being charged or not?
And how this will influence the inverter?
Greetings from cold Germany...
Plamen
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here what the user manual says :
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They have run amok with their translation.
The inverter can run over a wide range of voltage, and does not care if it is under charging conditions or not. Mine runs from well below 48v to over 62v range.
The only caution for me is be aware to shut down the inverter when changing from inverter charger to inverter mode.... ie if you are using gen set to drive 240v into the inverter so it will charge 12v battery@70 amps or whatever, remember to turn it off BEFORE disconnecting the 240v source ( motor generator or grid or shore power)
If you just shut down the source, I have found a risk that as it instantly changes to inverter function ( changes frequency from your AC source to the on board 50hz), it can push a new pulse into the transformer that may be out of phase with the magnetics of the core. The torroids are very electrically stiff, and can deliver massive current surge in this circumstance..... they need to reprogram for a soft start with the torroids..... I think it is programmed for the W7 EI transformers, which are very leaky and soft. The fets can bully them, but not the torroids with any reliability.
Mine is on charge all day from solar, and runs all day... so I don't understand what the excerpt you showed means really... would render the unit virtually useless .
Example, I saw 100 amps going into the battery today, and no bother to the inverter... nor should there be.... and there would be switching ripple with that input too, as well as some reverse grid tie backwards through the inverter.
"I wonder, how the inverter will determine if the battery bank is just being charged or not?
And how this will influence the inverter?"
It would know the input voltage was over 12.7v.. so must be charging..... it won't care.... but the nett result is that it is easier for it to sustain the load, as the input voltage being higher than 12v, will allow shorter pulses for the same output voltage, so it will be much easier for it to stop voltage sag, or saturating the transformer with long DC pulses trying to push the voltage up from a lower start point. ( providing voltage and frequency and waveform remain the same you won't saturate a transformer by loading it up or even overloading it... but clipping can I think.)
.........oztules
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thanks again...
So do you think this application mode will be OK for my boat :
(I think the manual is calling this the “UPS function”)
1. shore AC power will be permanent connected to the inverter 230V AC input.
If shore power present, the inverter will pass it through to the AC appliances, without using the battery.
Question : will the inverter try to charge the battery when AC input present??
When no shore AC power present, the inverter will produce 230V from the battery.
2. the inverter will be permanent running in inverter mode / “power save on”
(Not sure about, maybe “power save off” is the better choice ?)
3. The battery will be charged by multiple parallel connected sources (solar, wind, engine alternator etc.) regardless of shore power and inverter status or operation mode
4. When I am not on board, the inverter will be switched off.
Do I overlook something?
Best regards
Plamen
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Yes you can use AC through and no charging.. on selector switch.
It is supposed to run as a UPS....exactly as you described...... but I have not used it like this.... others may have.... but it claims to run as a ups, and either charge the batts at the same time, or just throughput and not charge.
I know it does it, but do not know how reliable it is on back to battery when shore turns off. ..... ask the seller... save response... so you can claim warranty if necessary. They are good on their warranty claims apparently.
Wish I could be more specific, but i just don't do this regularly.... and when I do, I sometimes I let the smoke out of it.... but usually doing a few other evil things at the same time making it difficult to know why it happened.
Usually I have been using the charging at the same time ( internal), and it may be that that causes the change over trouble. It is flawless on battery to ac throughput, it syncs very quickly, and changes over fine... at that point I have had it charging the batts hard, then drop the shore power... and poof...as it goes back to inverter only mode, things go bad for me.... I am sure it is the back mmf in the torroid... but have not bothered to research further, as I don't do that anymore.
As you will not be using the transformer in pass through, no charging, it may be totally different. I don't know.... wish I did.
.............oztules
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Oztules - you are a GENIUS! In case no one has told you before.
From what I understand, and forgive me for being thick,
(a) winding a few turns around a core placed in the low voltage transformer line of the Power Jack inverter transforms the efficiency at low current? What size core? Three or four turns or more?
It would be great if you might be able to explain why this does improve efficiency - I'm not sure that I follow the explanation here to date. Clearly the choke blocks high frequency oscillations into the transformer . . . Would a parallel capacitor assist at all anywhere, between choke and transformer? Perhaps one might find some power factor correction on low load helpful when the transformer presents pure inductance . . .
(b) to back feed batteries through the unit from solar grid tie systems is amazing. I'm not entirely clear why this unit allows this to happen and it not being possible or known to be possible with others. Presumably one needs to have a system to turn off the grid tie units when the batteries are full . . .
I run part of my house on an 8000LF from 24V and am about to install another system with a 15000LF 48V
I tried to download the circuit diagrams but they are a bit small to read. Is there a higher resolution source?
Best wishes and many thanks for your dedication and willingness to share
OTW
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I mentioned your opening line to my wife..... she burst out laughing.... and says you don't know me very well at all... village idiot is a better description she thinks....
The inductance is very low, about 18uh or in that kind of range seems to work fine. It is too low to be a filter for the switching speed, so more likely it cleans up switching hash... ie allows for the fets to turn on fully before the current really takes hold. This will kill some hash harmonics, and get them out of the transformers... they run very much cooler.
I had thought that the 4uf capacitor on the output would have to be gotten rid of too, but this is not the case. I expected it to look like a short circuit... but no...
So we are left wondering why it works so darn well... but cooler fets and transformer and a massive loss of idle current is a wonderful result.
Core size for me was E65. 3.5 turns of battery cable.. thats it. You won't fit more turns in if you have decent sized wire. More inductance will help, but in ever decreasing amounts for the inductance used... then it goes up again as more is added. This 3.5 turns seems a reasonable compromise.
Most h bridge units would be capable of reverse feed, as it is really the same as regenerative braking in DC speed controls. The N channel can carry current in both directions once turned on, so is a simple solution for reverse running... remember the gate is insulated from the n channel... once the electrostatic field is built around the gate, the N channel is just that .. a less than perfect conductor.. bi-directional.. same as resistance wire really... Rds on = R. The inductor lets this happen better, as without it, there is a strong chance of fuses blowing.. that s what I found anyway.
Click on the diagrams, they should blow up very well ( they do in linux )
............oztules
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Hi!
In England I've been able to get offcuts of aluminium lightning conductor with insulation . . . and it's great giving a 75mm2 cross-section of carrying capacity that would be given by around 50mm of copper - so it's rather useful for off-grid installations.
Just one turn of lightning conductor gives 32uH around http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191039069182 a 4 inch toroid "Transformer Choking Coil Spare Part Round Magnetic Core 102mm x 65mm x 20mm" so when I fit this it should do the trick nicely.
I'm a little confused by mention on this thread of the addition of a capacitor but can't find reference to where to fit it or for what purpose?
Best wishes
OTW
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What is the material the core is made up of.... it says metal in the blurb...... needs to be ferrite for HF use.
"I'm a little confused by mention on this thread of the addition of a capacitor but can't find reference to where to fit it or for what purpose?"..... me too. Don't know what it is that was talked about ....maybe...
There is a 4uf filter cap on the output that should be replaced/reduced in theory, as it should behave as a short on the output to the fets.... but in practice it makes no such problem, and is left alone.
There was a problem early on in the process where by the cap on the control board exposed to the battery was only a 50v unit, this has been rectified form the looks of it. It was a problem when they reprogrammed 24v boards for 48v use... was my best guess. They have since not done this, and use 100v units.
......oztules
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Thanks very greatly.
I couldn't find the 4uF capacitor on the circuit diagram - clearly I'm blind!
Here's the implementation on the ferrite ring
[attach=2][attach=1]
(Inappropriate content about OU/FreeEnergy deleted by Admin)
Best wishes
OTW
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I'm wondering if anyone has played with pulsed charging as in Bedini, or other free energy from aether devices such as TPU - toriodial power units - Kapanadze devices - resonant electrolysis of water or other things documented on Silly site link removed?
Best wishes
OTW
OTW;
(Admin Mode)
Tread carefully that is a banned website and subject here and could get you a Warp Kill or life in the Read Only Room.
Just FYI
Sorry to jump on your thread with Admin stuff , Oz but rules is rules.
Tom
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OTW.... the 4uf cap is next to where the wires from the transformer 240v HV meets the board. It is usually a red thing an inch or so long.
That is one way to implement the inductance, but you really have done it hard. Would be better to just use battery lead and wind another 1.5 turns on it......
Also normal leads allow you to place the torroid up in the transformer region, and so allow the box to remain intact.
What is your idle current now and pre change?
.............oztules
ps yes,please leave the free energy and free money theories to the noddies on the other sites predisposed to voodoo magic..... like the worlds central banks at the moment....
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THanks
Yes - it's seems a sledgehammer to crack a nut but the lightning tape is a good heavy conductor which I had to hand and round that ring works really well, not having decent battery lead to hand, and the toroid seemed easier to source too.
Before the standby current was 8 amps and now a mere 1.3 amps. What a difference that makes! THANK YOU!
Best wishes
OTW
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OTW -
What's the orange wire around the inside and outside of the toroid all about?
Steve
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OTW -
What's the orange wire around the inside and outside of the toroid all about?
Steve
I thought it was the "core"? Have seen that done before long ago when dinosaurs roamed the earth and the water was drinkable from the rivers. :o
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OTW -
What's the orange wire around the inside and outside of the toroid all about?
Steve
;-) Something that Oztules wouldn't want to hear about.
(Edit: something the rest of us don't want to hear about either. PLEASE do not drag in the over-unity, free-energy, unproven/unprovable/proven-fake stuff from that and similar websites. This IS your final warning on the matter)
OTW
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OTW -
What's the orange wire around the inside and outside of the toroid all about?
Steve
I thought it was the "core"? Have seen that done before long ago when dinosaurs roamed the earth and the water was drinkable from the rivers. :o
Ah ok, like one of those new fangled anti-meteor devices... gotcha ;)
Steve
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;-) Something that Oztules wouldn't want to hear about.
(Edit: something the rest of us don't want to hear about either. PLEASE do not drag in the over-unity, free-energy, unproven/unprovable/proven-fake stuff from that and similar websites. This IS your final warning on the matter)
OTW
Sorry - I was asked about it, and it was only polite to answer, and it is relevant to state that the orange wires on that toroid have nothing to do with the reduction of standby power on these inverters. The toroid with the one turn of lightning conductor itself provides excellent service for the purpose giving inductance of around 32uH and whilst clumsily mounted outside the box serves the purpose. In boxes of the 5kW and 3kW inverters internal mounting would be impossible in my opinion.
The former High Frequency pure sine PJ inverters took a standby current of around 1 amp on no load but in my personal experience lasted only a year. In contrast, as you indicate here, the Low Frequency models are very different animals and the ability to reduce their standby current to compete with the efficiency of the other models is a boon and a genius on your part.
A good reason for trying to keep the inductor within the case may well be faraday shielding of any possible radio interference.
Whilst we may well have reason to laugh about anti meteor hats, but doing appropriate experiments to prove that they are not useful from time to time has a place in proper science in which we should always challenge and test assumptions. I can confirm that the orange wires, as to be expected, show nothing useful.
I happen to live in an area which is under threat of fracking, and by whatever means of whatever alternative energy is available, we've got to explore every route to make environmentally destructive stuff both redundant and irrelevant. To date, solar is one of the best available options and power from inverters like these from solar charged battery banks is a most important development. Your insight into taming them is invaluable. Thank you for sharing it.
Best wishes
OTW
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OTW, here you can see location of capacitor. It might be that is 2,2uF if you have latest inverter.
[attach=1]
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OTW, here you can see location of capacitor. It might be that is 2,2uF if you have latest inverter.
Thanks so much.
very helpful on the photo - C20 on the circuit diagram and behind it the current transformer. The board layout and circuit diagram are now starting to make sense.
I will try in due course to take photos of the different versions of the boards as they might be helpful. I found that a couple of units made in November 2013 and before tended to blow their power transistors but the power boards since are reliable.
Presumably the purpose of C20 is purely noise suppression of any high frequency noise coming through the transformer? Presumably this is now suppressed by the new inductor in the primary side. Or is it also partly as a noise suppression from any spikes being returned from connected equipment?
Something that I have wondered about these units is the absurd possibility of a common driver so that the gates of the power transistors might be driven by another unit so that outputs might be stackable . . . and the possibility of a master oscillator somewhere phase shifted to control two other units to achieve three phase . . .
Has anyone thought about this?
Increasingly there are applications for local minigrids and certainly the revelation that these units can work as such with connected grid tie inverters is a start, but perhaps one might go further . . .
Best wishes and many thanks
OTW
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If you remove C20, it should be replaced with (at least) "0,47 uF 400V X2" cap.
I guess its function is a signal forming - to get a nice sinusoidal output ...
About idle current, you can get it even more down increasing inductance of your choke. On mine (PJ LF 8000 48 230v), current is around 0,37 A @ 40V and 0,30 A @ 60V DC, what is equal 14,5 - 18,5W. There are combinations with one or two EI cores and/or Toroidal ones. Yesterday I finally got a 101 x 65 x 15 mm Toroidal cores (something like yours). With 16 turns on, you are in a range of current above. With two of them and 10 turns - one core on each trany input, you can squeeze even some 10 mA (cca 0,5W @ 48v) more.
It would be nice if we can get lower idle current, but it looks like this is the bottom for 8kW inverter.
Sorry for my English ...
Mike
[attach=1]
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I'd be very interested in the list of mods 1-6 that are detailed in your graph. Looks very interesting...
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Frackers, did you end up with one of these?.... which one, and what have you done to it thus far... etc etc...
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Frackers, did you end up with one of these?.... which one, and what have you done to it thus far... etc etc...
Been out of work the last 3+ months so trying not to spend any money!!
Been concentrating on something to clean my walnuts http://gilks.ath.cx/gallery/index.php/Nuts/IMG_3410 (http://gilks.ath.cx/gallery/index.php/Nuts/IMG_3410) when the harvest comes along in April/May (expecting over 250kg this year). The drum gets galvanised on Monday, then its making a frame to carry it (using an old trailer) and the drive mechanism. Using 24v wheelchair motors and bilge pump, all controlled using 3 H-bridges driven off an Arduino Mega with the speed/direction set using rotary encoders rather than pots.
When things get back to normal after the summer hols, maybe there will some employment and I get more toys ;)
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So I just purchased a 10000W PJ for use as a UPS for my small office. Price was great at $410 shipped. The unit arrived and looks perfect. Opened it up just to make sure I actually received what I ordered and everything looks good. Here is my issue. I have no idea how to make the battery charger function work. I plugged in the supplied power cord and I get nothing. I tried the switch on both settings. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Duke
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So I just purchased a 10000W PJ for use as a UPS for my small office. Price was great at $410 shipped. The unit arrived and looks perfect. Opened it up just to make sure I actually received what I ordered and everything looks good. Here is my issue. I have no idea how to make the battery charger function work. I plugged in the supplied power cord and I get nothing. I tried the switch on both settings. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Duke
It's essential to turn the little knob to the setting for whatever batteries you have. Number 4 is fine for sealed lead acid that are normally used in UPS systems
Best wishes
OTW
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if it is working as an inverter normally, then check your battery switch position ( read instruction manual for switch settings for your batteries ) switch to required setting.
when you plug in mains... providing your frequency and voltage from the source is within spec ( see manual.. it is pretty wide ) the unit will find it and proceed to bypass and charge.
.............oztules
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In the manual it says it must have 220v in but the included power cord is for 110v. I'd like to just use the hard wire jack and wire it up to 220v but it is miss labeled and i don't want to make the magic smoke come out.
[attachimg=1]
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By the way PowerJack should be paying you royalties. Seems they make a good product (the LF series anyway) but their language barrier issues cause them problems.
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"By the way PowerJack should be paying you royalties. Seems they make a good product (the LF series anyway) but their language barrier issues cause them problems. "
Hi Duke, I only want their control boards, and that power card you have in the bigger units... twice the cooling than the 8000w and less.
Beyond that I replace the rest of it......., but they are better than the other W7 transformers for idle.... for sheer power without fiddling, the W7 is a lot better, but weighs 50kg. The weight is good, but the transformers are lossy and leaky. They will use 5kwh per day for nothing.... They share the same basic control and power boards. Different/higher/realistic current programming for the W7 to match their very chunky transformers. Can do the same in the PJ by bypassing some of the current around the CT.
Their LF series are basically very good, but their QC is wicked...poor, and the power claims are pretty silly unless you re- transform. The electronics are good, the trannyies are good, but under sized for the claimed output..... they will do it, but continuous to them is 12 seconds after about 5-6kw for yours I suspect. Their surge is very impressive too ... start anything.. very good.
But if they put all the bits in there, and tighten everything up, they should give many years of service, as they are inherently sound beyond their QC..... it would help if they didn't make every one different too.
The AC input goes to the front end of the board, and from there by relay to the switching system. From what I can read there, they want 220v input. I suspect they use transformers in series, and so give you two 110v outputs, independent from each other but for the centertaps.
If the AC is wrong, it just wont sync to it, and so nothing SHOULD happen.....( you Americans and split phase systems amuse me )..... so I think it is just a 220v unit with split outputs.
I would hook up 220v into the terminal block, and ignore the IEC socket.
I am very iffy at recommending these things as a charger, but that is what you bought it for.... but gee I worry about the change over from charge/bypass to inverter mode. It may be my transformers are too tight for it to handle the input surges.....
These things are not perfect, but incredible value for the money... particularly if you want to play with them.... the worst that can happen is a new pair of boards from ebay for less than $200..... It's in your court. If you contact the seller, they may help you to get iti right first time... they are usually very helpful.... and when it all goes wrong, they will probably help there too.
Pics of the insides would be nice to see too Duke.
Ross, for a cheap backup unit for you I would recommend the W7 6000/18000w unit. When you get all the panels up, you won't notice the 5KWH/day, and you will need to push every bit as hard as your selectronic to bother it at all... it has animal grunt...... but expensive on the idle... and nothing you can do about it other than retransforming it.... it ups's very well as the leakage stops the surge currents on change back to invert.
........oztules
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The seller did respond to me finally and told me to hook up 220v to the terminal strip. My issue is that it is not labeled properly to attach 220v split phase. Going to hook it up later today.
Here are the internal pics:
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
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Well I wired it up to 220v split phase and it works! Capacity should be good for my application. It will be power backup to a small office. 3 pc's, a server, couple of printers, and a multi-line phone system. Also 6 florescent light fixtures but I might split those out of the breaker box. We don't have our battery setup yet. We are just running it off of a couple of old batteries for testing. Haven't tested the UPS function yet. I will cut the power later today once the batteries have a good charge and hopefully it doesn't blow up. If it does I guess I will be having a conversation with the seller. Thanks for all your help!
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You've got the proper big electronic boards... same as mine, although mine has all the electro's ( 15kw version )
Transformers combined for possible 5- 6kw... ( two of their "5kw" units), although they are well cooled, may do more than that. The electronics will do easy 10kw ( with current mod). That cooling is very good.
That thing will easily run a decent off grid house... not just an office. I see they are doing a bit of filtering too.
Over here you would not buy a 3kw torroid transformer for that money. Those bigger power boards really are good..... luv em.
The markings are for Europe and Aust ie N and L and E on the INPUT terminal block..... but L and N are just your 220v live "ends" of your split phase. So your two Live's from your split phase go to the unit's L and N inputs. The normal neutral in your grid will not be connected to the unit at all
I am guessing it will send the 220v straight through to the transformers outputs of the unit. However, it will still turn up at the two white power points as 2 x110v. The two Live input wires will appear at one of each of them there, and a new neutral will be created to both via the auto transformer effect of the secondary's of the trannies.
Change over from inverter to straight through has never been a problem..... it snycs perfectly.... it is getting back to inverter when the grid drops off.... in all their blurb I have, they want the unit turned of while grid is dropped,........... then they advertise the ups function???..... and I don't know what to think any more...
It will certainly be a fine inverter, but may need more filter to get the idle down..... as a ups.... let us know please.
............oztules
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Tested the UPS function and it worked perfectly. Cut the power and then turned it back on no issues. Only issue is the batteries I was using for the test. They are crap. I will actually install it in the next few weeks with some fresh batteries. For the price ($410 shipped) I think this will be perfect for what we are using it for.
On a side note I'm thinking about installing A PJ in my 5th wheel camper and making a 12v generator from and alternator. I have a 120amp VW alternator sitting around doing nothing. How hard would it be to make a circuit to auto start my 12v generator based on battery voltage?
Thanks again for all your help.
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Good to see it work... make sure you give it a work out early on.
The problem as I saw it was where we were in the sine wave when we turn the AC off.
If we are at the peak of a wave, then all will be fine, as the inrush current to support the magnetising current will be normal.
If we get to turn it off at zero crossing, then surge current will be at max. This is where massive current can occur... not at sine max, but at zero crossing.... just where you thought it would be safest to turn on the inverter wave form.
Thats why testing it over a reasonable number of times to see if it blows early in it's life to get the warranty in the first week or so.
If after say 20 on/off cycles, all is good, there is a good chance you have been near or at zero crossing,and everywhere in between, so will all be good.
Voltage switch is a simple comparator to a relay to initiate start, and use alternator voltage ( from motor alt, not the big alt) to indicate engine started or oil pressure if it has a pump to end start procedure.
But others with experience of generator turn ons may have other things more important... like AH meterage instead. I don't have nor will have auto generator support.... so I would not know, but state of charge is best done with AH out measurements, than battery voltage which is captive to so many variables as to be meaningless on it's own.
...............oztules
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Voltage switch is a simple comparator to a relay to initiate start, and use alternator voltage ( from motor alt, not the big alt) to indicate engine started or oil pressure if it has a pump to end start procedure.
But others with experience of generator turn ons may have other things more important... like AH meterage instead. I don't have nor will have auto generator support.... so I would not know, but state of charge is best done with AH out measurements, than battery voltage which is captive to so many variables as to be meaningless on it's own.
"It's complicated" is an oversimplification!
If you know the current discharge rate, you can make an estimate on battery capacity from its voltage - but that has to be informed by monitoring it over time to see how it behaves.
Nett amphours (out-in) will give you a rough estimate, but it needs adjusted for battery efficiency etc, and that changes over time and temperature, and what part of the charge cycle you're in.
A "moment in time" isn't great either, because a basic system can't anticipate what loads you're likely to apply, or when you'll get charging power, or how long it'll last before it get "urgent".
I use a combination of some smarts in the inverter and a decade of "accumulated gut feel". If we've had poor sun, and/or a lot of demand on power then I'll manually run the generator in the evening even though the batteries "probably don't need it (yet)" simply because I'd rather do it then, than have it start itself at 4am. If I know we're going to have a poor day, I will let the generator run, and then use "extra power" (like doing the washing or running the dishwasher, or the bore pump etc) while it's running just to keep the consumption down during the rest of the day.
The smarts to actually control the generator are pretty straightforward. Sequencing, monitoring temperatures, oil pressure etc, start and stop, all simple. But working out WHEN to run requires a bit more than just a comparator or an amp-hour counter!
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...... and if Ross gets them 7kw of panels in the air ...... he won't have to cogitate either.
Put in inverter air con to use the hot days extra power..... just like AofJ.
My system is full every day.
The AH meter has the 750AH in it. It then reads the AH going out overnight. This reverses in the AM, and by 9-10am, it has counted back up to 750..... it counts no further, even though another 15-20% probably goes in after reaching 750. ( so really not "FULL" by 10am..probably 85% or more.... but full by normal usage standards..)
By days end, it is still on 750... so it actually just lets me now how many KWH have been consumed overnight. Really crappy days ( 4" rain) it will eek out the 750 by nightfall, so it has technically recovered the AH used, but does not tell you about the 15-20% loss via chemical processes.... but very rare to have that 2 in a row.... and 80% charge is very useful too.
If it did not reach full charge each day ( ie 4-5amps@58v is a fair indication) then the AH would not be terribly useful...... also not useful to tell a motor when to start.... as it never needs it.
So system watching is the best criteria to work out start as Ross suggests.
In a normal RE situation, 1.275sg (100% full) is not easy to achieve..... unless you have lots of solar, or an unusually good windmill.... a generator will be running for a long long time, putting in very little current to get there in the last 4-5 hrs
............oztules
ps Ross, it's 9.30am here, misty rain all morning, and yet still running the house, and putting in 14amps.... lots of panel = power in any condition. It's currently showing 714ah.. or 95% recovered. Still got to get to 750, plus chemical losses, but if the rain/mist stops at any point, it will be a shoe in, and even with rain , we will be 750 by 12-1 o-clock.... the rest of the day will finally get the SG up to full I expect.... shocking conditions at the moment, and don't look like changing any time soon.
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This thread just keeps giving, love it! ;D
I've lost the page now, but oztules, I'm curious about your earlier comment about the variable specifications of each unit, depending (it seems) on how much you pay for it (e.g. buy-it-now vs a sneaky pete dying seconds cheaper than dirt bid). I think you basically said that you sniped a cheap bid on a second 8kw LF unit, but the trannies were two 3kw units with the number nikko'd out? And thats not whats's on the inside of your other 8kw unit...
Is that the crux of your experience oz? If anybody else has similar points to share on price vs spec, please do!
And did I also read that they have fixed the standby power issue now? If anybody can confirm this that'd be great.
Reason I ask is;
1) for starters their pricing is all over the shop, and they appear to be running two ebay stores now for some reason... maybe one is to flog off the lesser spec'd units, or perhaps older units that still have the standby issue?
http://stores.ebay.com.au/solarempireinverters
http://stores.ebay.com.au/Power-Jack-Shop
& 2) I want to get a 24v 8kw unit and I'm tossing up on whether to just go buy-it-now or risk lesser spec'd trannies by sniping my own cheap bid to save a few bucks? (Yes I'm a tight arse! :P )
PS: I've been using a 24v 5kw LF unit for 6 months now, pretty much issue free. Only issue is it sometimes gives the overvoltage alarm/shutsdown (particularily on sunny days) when the batteries are at full charge round the 28v mark. If I'm quick enough though, I just chuck a few more DC loads on (e.g. 24v lights, radio, etc) to drop the voltage, and the thing soon shuts up and keeps chugging along! :D I also found the battery terminals were getting a bit too hot on heavy loads, so I doubled all my cabling (2 x 4AWG 100a) and they never feel hotter then ambient now. So despite the various shortcomings covered in this thread, at the end of the day these little beggars certainly still get the job done! :) So my plan is to use a new 8kw unit as my perm/frontline unit for the house/shed and I'm going to repurpose the 5kw unit for a small remote solar setup to power a 240v bore pump I need to get going.
Thanks all!
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I've lost the page now, but oztules, I'm curious about your earlier comment about the variable specifications of each unit, depending (it seems) on how much you pay for it (e.g. buy-it-now vs a sneaky pete dying seconds cheaper than dirt bid). I think you basically said that you sniped a cheap bid on a second 8kw LF unit, but the trannies were two 3kw units with the number nikko'd out? And thats not whats's on the inside of your other 8kw unit...
Is that the crux of your experience oz? If anybody else has similar points to share on price vs spec, please do!
. . . . .
& 2) I want to get a 24v 8kw unit and I'm tossing up on whether to just go buy-it-now or risk lesser spec'd trannies by sniping my own cheap bid to save a few bucks? (Yes I'm a tight arse! :P )
In order to help others along the solar and off grid path in England I have been buying and selling PJ inverters on UK ebay for a little while - and because the lady at PJ who deals with me values the business that comes through me, people who buy through me get support that I've found does not come through other sources. I don't do it as a business but to try to help and encourage others. The lady who I buy through has given me a price list on a "trade basis" and the prices are very often higher to me than I see inverters being sold on ebay for . . . .... (go figure . . . ) so this is why it's not a business for me as people buy through the Chinese sellers on ebay because they are cheaper . . . . (go figure . . . .) The profit I have made on the units I sell has only just about covered the expense of writing off those bad buys from the sellers in China.
Often people make terrible comments on YouTube or other places about the inverters because the Chinese seller they have bought through on ebay has left them in the lurch - and sometimes if they contact me I put them in touch with the lady I buy through and she has been able to sort something out.
Thinking that I was being ripped off buying at prices higher than the ebay sales, I bought a couple of the cheap inverters. One was a 6kW unit in a 6kW case but with only one transformer instead of two, and that was a 5kW transformer with the rating obscured. I bought a 5kW unit which was a 3kW unit with the rating similarly obscured. I think it was certainly a night-shift unit, or a backdoor production line.
So the answer is that if anyone buys a cheap one on ebay they may well be getting a night-shift unit. It's not worth trying to save a few bucks because the sellers that sell the back-door cheap units couldn't care less about customer service.
With regard to the unit cutting out at above 28V this was the old version control boards and the new version is adjusted for the realistically higher voltage. There are two resistors that one can change on the board to adjust the voltage but otherwise one can buy a new control board.
The 8000W unit that I use for part of my house offgrid continues to give good service.
A friend who has an 8000W unit writes to me:
I switch the main switch to the centre position “off” and the start my generator, I then push the switch up to charge the batteries and have 220V power to the boat, but for the past couple of weeks its been reluctant to cut in when I switch up ( or even down) I have to switch on and off maybe 6 or 7 times to get it to click and start charging ? any ideas
Any ideas?
Best wishes
OTW
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Hmmmm, I think the only real difference between the cheapies and the normal priced units is the transformers.
If they skimp on the trannies, they will probably have an extra fan in there.. thus technically increasing the power rating of the smaller or lower numbered transformers.
They are what they are.... but better than anything else in the price range by miles... purely because of the transformers.
So yes I did get one unit with 2x 5kw transformers, and one with 2 x3kw transformers with the writing blacked out on those two. the second one had an auxiliary fan to compensate for the smaller transformers...
The boards has been proven to be very very good, and mine have many megawatts under their belts now.... for sheer grunt and no messing around and a near 100% duty cycle, the W7 cannot be beaten as an off the shelfer.... but the 5kwh/day overhead is a problem if your skimpy on panels.... if like me you have far too much power every day, then the W7 would be the best bet, otherwise the PJ , whose ratings are fairly optimistic without a few changes, is superior.
If you do the big transformer add on I do, then you have a very serious unit... eg running the hot water at the same time as a 230 amp mig welder... and the water pump, and the fridge, and big freezer.... they just work....
A friend who has an 8000W unit writes to me:
"
I switch the main switch to the centre position “off” and the start my generator, I then push the switch up to charge the batteries and have 220V power to the boat, but for the past couple of weeks its been reluctant to cut in when I switch up ( or even down) I have to switch on and off maybe 6 or 7 times to get it to click and start charging ? any ideas "
Only thing that will effect this part is the frequency and voltage of your generator if your voltage is too high /low at the right frequency, or the frequency is too low or high at the right voltage range... then it will be hard to get it to stick.
I had a W7 do this once, and it was a spider across the voltage rails... which caused failure soon after....same boards basically.... interchangeable but for the pretty lights on the W7.
Good to see you can help a few folks there OTW.... they are a good deal regardless of what has been said... here or anywhere else.. even the cheapies are fine if you know what your doing, or you bought a unit way over rated for your uses.... QC is always an issue with the cheapies though.
OTW.. do you have any information at all on the overvoltage shut off actually working properly without the zener or resistance changes by the user..and see if you can scare them into using that very nice lcd display for something useful other than the silly price of power....
I see they are also spruking a generator to integrate ... good idea too.
...............oztules
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One the difference between the cheapies and the normal priced units, it's the transformers they skimp upon but on the units I have seen there are no extra fans.
The chap with difficulties with the battery charger reports that it was not the frequency of his generator that was the problem but a capacitor had failed in the genny causing it to drop voltage from 240 volts to below 200. Sorting that problem out solved the battery charging.
Someone has come to me wanting an inverter to maintain freezers during 2- 6 hour power cuts which are happening on a daily occurrence in South Africa at the moment - and so really needing the UPS function. Has anyone had experience of the UPS functioin with mains regular cutting off and being reapplied on a daily basis? And is there any issue with the battery charging in those circumstances?
Best wishes
OTW
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I'll be interested in the replies for this, as my experience is patchy with this setup.
If most folks have a seamless experience, then it must be my massive transformers exacerbating the inrush current problem that would occur normally, but in managable proportions perhaps.... small change to the code here would be wonderful....
As he is running for relatively short periods and on grid when not......... if he can afford the 200w overheads, maybe the W7 versions would be the better option..... they have leaky ( normal) transformers compared to torroids.....( massive too.... 40kg or so), and so this lowers the inrush currents .
I have not seen them fail in this condition (ups). Very honest work horses they are.... their 6kw units are 6kw units, their 18000w surge is massive too.... in fact are my choice of inverter if you don't care about magnetizing losses of 5kwh/day.... cant have everything for nothing i guess......... although, if you can use the 5kwh/day of heat generated to advantage ( help warm the room????), then it may not be the disadvantage it seems.
...............oztules
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I just bought a PowerJack 10,000, and also just found this thread. This is very interesting, however most of it goes over my head.
I also have a 5kw grid tie system. I would love to be able to use this inverter with batteries as the grid when or if the grid goes down. But I have a few question...
1- Do I need to mod anything in order for the inverter to feed back extra power generated to charge the batteries?
2- I just checked how much Power is used with no load, and it is only .4 amps (at 24v). This does not seem too bad... I wonder if the 10,000 watt powerjack has incorporated your mod?
3- Are there any relays or switches I could use to turn of my solar panels to my grid tie inverter when my batteries get full? (sorry if this is somewhere in this thread, I read through most of it, but since most was over my head, I skimmed a little)
Thanks.
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.... hmm where to start...
1. No if the grid tie is put on the outputs of the inverter it will run backwards through the transformer and synchronously switch the ac to dc and charge the battery... but with no control. Your point #2 tells us that there is filtering on the transformers, so the grid tie will work.
3.... yes and no........ as a general observation, as the batteries come out of bulk charge, their needs become dramatically less, ie where they may have been charging at 60amps, they will drop down to 10 and much less when they are 90% charged.
The effect of this is that the AC being generated by the grid tie inverter will force the AC voltage higher, and there is an excellent chance the grid tie will drop off of it's own accord because of high AC... thats what happens with mine anyway. I built a battery voltage switch to do this, but found it does it on it's own anyway, so I have two systems to shut down the over charging that would have occurred if this did not happen one way or the other.,... neat.
If your battery bank is at least500ah@48v, you will be able to charge at 100 amps max... or 5kw or there abouts, but it will soon drive the AC or the battery voltage up too high, and shut down either the inverter (PJ) from high battery voltage ( 61 or 62 ) which is annoying, or high AC which will drop off the grid tie inverter... which will try again in another three minutes etc etc etc.
So a battery over volt switch is really a very good thing to install.
However, once you bring your real grid into this mess, your better not to do any of that!!... they will take a dim view of this.
Your best to run a battery charger and float the batteries until the outage, and carefully use the inverter then.... you should not switch or change the grid tie arrangements from what you were contracted to do originally, or they may kick you off the feedback tariff, or shut your grid tie down if you piss them off enough.
You should have interlocking isolating switches before you even consider this, as it must be the case that NO power from you can get to the grid from your PJ or any other AC source when the grid is down, or someones death may occur.... very slim, as the impedance of the dead grid will be very very low... but it can happen in the right circumstances..... take note..... this is serious.
However if you have a secondary household circuit not connected to the grid in any way, then you can power that..... or use extension cords and lots of power blocks etc etc...... but don't mess with the grid unless you know what your doing. Normally it is just you who is at risk, but with backfeeding by mistake, it is not just you.
So...
1. don't use your grid tie to inverter to charge the batteries in this case, this is for off grid use... and very useful it is too... but not to be mixed with the real grid.
2. your idle figures are superb...
3. use a charger to float the batteries from the grid. They will be isolated by the transformer ( HF or LF), and will not interfere with your contract with the power supplier, and your grid tie will be driving the grid anyway.... all wins no losses if you use a timer to not charge or not float charge during the night... say only turn charger on between 10am and 4pm etc etc.
4. work out how you are going to use your PJ when the power does go off.
................oztules
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Yes - very comprehensive answer. The only way of coping with circumstances where you might be off-grid on account of a power cut is to take the branch feeding the grid tie system through a rotary double pole double throw switch to connect the grid tie spur either to a grid circuit or to the circuit fed offgrid by the PJ inverter.
Thinking about this, when power is applied to the PJ inverter then that power is fed straight through to the sockets for the output of the inverter. When power goes off, the connexion to the mains is disconnected and the inverter trips in. So if the grid tie circuit is connected to the output of the inverter, and mains is connected to the input, then when there is mains the grid tie will feed into the mains and when there is no mains, it will feed back into the batteries through the PJ
Am I thinking unclearly here and have missed something glaringly obvious why this might pose a problem?
Best wishes
OTW
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Thanks that is very helpful.
Just a few more questions...
1- I am not sure what interlocking isolating switches are, however I do have a large 300A disconnect switch that will disconnect my entire house from the grid. I figure this should be safe, however I will not know when the grid comes back up, so I may add a light or something on the other side of the switch...
2- How do you work the battery voltage switch? I was thinking about putting a relay switch (normally closed) on the output of the grid tie inverter, then have some sort of controller that will open that relay when the voltage on the batteries get past the bulk stage (I would probably have to play around with it a little to get a good set point). I really have no idea what to use for this right now though. But I would like to leave my pj on when the batteries are charged.
3- is 100 amps the max? My PJ is a 24v, and I was thinking of adding about 1200 ah at 24V.
4- I tried using my charging by plugging in the pj to 110 power (this would be used for when the grid is up, without the output of the pj connected to anything, just using the pj as a charger). But it did not do anything, and the instructions were not clear on this.... is it better to use a separate charger to keep the batteries full while the grid is up?
p.s. This is really exciting!!!
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I have been thinking about this more. I wonder if there is a way to make a controller that will add resistance to the incoming solar panels to the grid tie inverter (make it think there is less sun out) when the batteries begin to fill up. This way we could get a "float charge" to maintain the voltage until a point where the grid tie inverter shuts off when the batteries are full (the inverter would think the sun went down).
If that is not possible, we could setup some normally closed relay switches on each string of solar panels, and turn one off at a time until they are all shut off... My 5kw grid tie inverter only has two strings, so it would not be as good as gradually turning it down, but better than nothing...
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It's an interesting thought. But the problem is that switching high voltage DC is not something one wants to switch with a relay - the arc is spectacular. Whilst wiring up a new set of panels it's great fun (potentially lethal of course) to connect them up with bare wires and to short them together and take them apart, the arc becoming a flame often 1/2 inch long and melting the wire insulation further along. Of course I only do this having taken the panels to the switch and then before connecting switch into the grid tie inverter but very seriously 250-300V of DC can kill, and it's really for that reason why the string is taken straight into the GT inverter without meddling in any way with it.
Playing with 24V of course is perfectly safe other than handling the high currents involved on a larger power load.
Best wishes
OTW
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Yes, I understand the issue with dc. That is why I originally thought to just switch off the AC power to the inverter. But It looks like there is a way to do it...
http://www.power-io.com/california/
However it would be even better if we could get some type of potentiometer that could turn down the solar panels gradually until the inverter just shut off. I would guess this would need to dissipate some serious heat thought, and I don't know of any product that can do it.
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It's better to use a dump load switched on by the approach of the batteries to 28V. Voltage controlled switches are easily obtainable and a product such as Immersun takes solar generated power and feeds hot water immersion heaters to absorb all the solar power generated. This can be a second stage process once batteries are up to voltage, as long as you've got enough hot water to heat.
Best wishes
OTW
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I have looked into using a dump load, but the cost for a 5+kw dump load gets a little expensive. I am not looking into this being a full time off grid system, so just some sort of safety shutoff would be fine.
I tested it out today (using only two 12v batteries in series). I disconnected the grid, and plugged my inverter into my 220v welding outlet. Once my grid tie inverter turned on, it took my batteries up over 31V, before my grid tie inverter shut down. It only took about 20 seconds.... I am sure it would react much differently with more batteries.
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At least now you have seen it work in that configuration with the grid tie.... 5kw is a handful... at 24v battery bank........thats sort around the 200A+ to get rid of....
Try to keep below C10 charge rate.... so 2000ah bank??
.....oztules
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That is a litter bigger bank than I was planning on... I suppose it really will never charge at 5kw, unless I turn off everything in my house.
I have ordered a few parts to see if it will disconnect my inverter correctly...
1- 12V 24V Diversion Regulator Control Relay SSR Solar/Wind/Hydro 1URDC-1224-BSD (ebay)
2- 40A Relay SPDT High Power Motor Control 24VDC/120VAC
I hope to be able to connect the controller to the relay (the relay will turn off the ac power to the grid tie inverter) to disconnect the inverter when the batteries are full. However I am afraid we will get the inverter turning on and off a lot...
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The LF inverters are accompanied by a large red label with the following wording:
Warning:
When you need plug in the ac power
cable to charge your battery, you
need turn off the switch, after
plug in, then switch on, when you
need plug out the ac power cord,
you also need turn off the switch,
then remove the power cable,
other wise when you plug in or out
the ac power cord, will have voltage
spark come to damage the inverter.
tks for your noted.
Am I the only one a little confused by this?
Does this imply that the unit cannot be used for UPS function relying on the battery charger to keep batteries maintained automatically whilst mains is present? If so presumably the charger needs to be set to 0 being the off position . . . ?
Best wishes
OTW
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Thats about how I feel about it..... I think it is a special inverter, and a pig of a charger/ups arrangement.......
I think .... and this may be bulldust too, that this controller was designed for the W7. It does a great job as an inverter charger with those leaky transformers, but when they grafted it onto the PJ torroids, it came home to haunt them that they did not develop the software originally, so cannot follow the frequency and gently come back to default.
Thats the only problem with it, it can sync to the grid/generator perfectly well, and without the switch off from my experience, but it will be a lucky dip as to where the wave form will be when it loses grid and goes back to the default frequency.... if they had control of the programming, they could stay with the grid/generator frequency when it turned off, that was there previous, and then over a few more cycles, it could drift back to 50.0hz ( for mine), and the surge currents would not materialise.
Whether it makes a difference if it is charging or just through putting I have not tested for, as I don't use it as that.
It works well with grid tie inverters.......no matter what happens, but it is the grid tie that does the following, so no negative results.
I found it interesting that even 3 kw or more through the grid tie inverter to the inverter outputs, and then into the battery bank @ say 2.5kw, the PJ controlled the environment... up to the point where excess AC that had no where to go, (as the batteries were filled), just pushed up the AC voltage, and the grid tie drops off. ( I have a battery shut off programmed for 58.5v, but by then, it seems to be the case that the AC goes high before the battery goes high... normally around the 57.5v or so)
..............oztules
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I'm sure that when I checked the Aussie ebay site a couple of months ago the PJ shop were doing free post to New Zealand. The 10kw job is now AU$999 with post being AU$550. That makes it a total non-starter now :(
The only option I have is to get a set of boards (AU$200 + 75 post) and build from scratch with a locally sourced transformer. Is this doable or am I going to be missing major parts. I'll need some input on wire gauge and number of turns but I'm willing to tackle most things!
Other question is, are all the spares the same as they only list up to 8000w 48v and I was hoping for 10000w 48v.
Cheers
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Yes Frackers, totally doable.
Will be helping a local to do the same thing shortly.
There is no real difference with the boards, just the programming, which can be gotten around easily anyway.. simply bypassing the current tranny with some length of wire will make it whatever wattage you want.... but I advise making your own fan control in this case, as it wont l know that your doing 4000w instead of say 2000w, and won't drive the fan on until it gets to 50C or more. I would be wary of bypassing more than 50% around the tranny.. as the peaks will be well up in the 20kw area on wild occasions... and it will do it too..., but it allows for severe power for long periods... if you cool the fets ( easy to do) and your trannies are big enough to take it for long periods.
My home drive inverter is three torroids from aero sharp 1.5kw grid tie inverters, they are really much larger than that in this use, as using 6 or 7 kw for long periods is very unlikely.
The 8kw power board is electrically the same as the 15000w board, except for the heat sink size, and fet spacing, and a tiny ferrite bead on the leg of the fets.
If you can get hold of dud grid tie units with galvanic isolation ( heavy units, not the light ones) you will have a cheap torroid.. I can buy them over here for $40 a piece, don't know over there, but if they ran aerosharps or inspires over there there should be a few around if you get hold of installers..
So you need the control board and power card... transformers for the size you want, a ferrite filter and a box to put it in... it is that simple.
I use 100amp fused input..... as it won't blow until near 200A, and will protect the input wiring from the bank. I don't use over 5kw for long periods... maybe 10 mins etc, so it is big enough
I use a 6kw rcd on the output, only blown it once when I was over 8kw for a few minutes.... very abnormal, a 200a shunt for the current measurement if you want to see whats going on
Then whatever monitoring stuff you want ( and I know you will have this part computerised )....... an on /off switch, a box and thats about all.
Help is a post away.
Here for less than $600, I have a very solid unit that has now done many mega watt hours without any problem at all.
My fan control has two fans in push pull through the larger heatsink, and don't run most of the time.... when the hot water is on they will breifly turn on and off at varied speed, and keep the sinks down to about 38C, transformer can get up to 45C if it has large loads for long periods ( few hours etc.. eg hot water runs for about 2.5hrs/ day , plus all the house loads) so I can hear it come on if I'm in the shed at this time ( between 10.30am and to about 1pm) It is usually doing the HW, washing machine, fridges freezers and water pumps and telly at the same time.... and a few intermittant 2500w jug events for coffee... it does not care in the least.
I usually have up to 1.5kw of grid tie there as well, and can boost that to 4.5kw if I want too.
I do NOT use it as a charger or automatic UPS, and suggest you do not as well...... as an inverter, it has proven to be rock solid, but read the red writing above for why I dont.
If you want to use quality ( old type) welding transformers, you will probably get pretty reasonable idling results too, but no where near the torroids, but respectable none the less... better quality laminates mean lower magnetising current.
The W7 is a very decent unit... except for the transformers. They are programmed with better time outs for heavy power.. ie pj 8000w will cut out after 12 seconds or so at full power, the W7 will just do it's 6kw honestly continuously... so replace the trannies with better quality steel, and a filter and you will do ok....a few choices...
.................oztules
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Well... I dont know how long it's been there (chanced upon it this morning), but the land down-under appears to have it's very own Power Jack e-Bay shop! And true to form the pricing is all over the shop... :o
http://stores.ebay.com.au/AU-PowerJack
They have a new 2015 version now, with some interesting bits on that front panel;
- USB JACK?
- 110V AC OUTPUT!?!? (surely not?) It's a universal socket now too, not the AU one...
- there's a screw down AC output terminal block now, thats cool...
- And... whats that AC 220V~240V L1 N L2 thing in the middle of the panel? Anybody?
Off the Wall - if you can clarify the specs on these units with your contact that'd be great!
I also assume they use the same boards as the 2013/14 model?
I'm holding off on my next purchase till I figure out if the 2015 version is a better buy, or not. :)
[attachimg=1]
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Thats an American split phase output inverter from the looks of it.
The USB stuff is for experimental ( last I heard) monitoring... the L1 N L2 is the split phase output ie 110v 0 110v so 110v from either line to neutral, but 220v from line to line.
They seem to be using slightly modified boards compared to a few years back, and have daughter boards on them for the communication and driver components.... good or bad??? don't know.
They need to address the software for the folks that need proper UPS and charging setups, and they would be pretty hard to beat in any category then.
................oztules
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Is there a way to adjust the output voltage. I have one that is putting out 107VAC, and I would much rather have it putting out closer to 120VAC. By the way, this is a 5KW 110 version, not a split phase version.
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Yes, but it involves tricking the control circuit.
If you find the tracks that give the 110v sample of the output voltage to the chip to make it's decisions, you can intercept and use a voltage divider to give it any voltage you wish, and it will ramp up or down accordingly.
I have not needed to do this, so can't say exactly how. Depends on your electronic knowhow.
If your plus or minus 10% of your goal, then that is normally good enough for any appliance ......though, if you want to increase it. thats how.
............oztules
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Interesting... That sounds a little difficult.
I am just worried about voltage drop after running an extension cord 100 feet to a freezer. The surge load may drop the voltage too low to start correctly... I will have to try it I guess.
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I do know its possible to alter voltage regulation, ive not done it but once when mine was still installed under panel, it got damp and was running at 120v. A little surprised i had to go get a meter and check, sure enough, 120v.
Has anyone had an issue with a pj inverter making an arcing noise inside transformer???
It doesnt do it cold, only after about 10 min of a 700w load, gradually the noise gets louder and louder, analog amp guage on dc side starts flickering wildly until grid tie decides party is over and takes a nap. Because the noise comes from toroid, thinking that the thing is arcing between windings i replaced toroid. Did not help. (This is a new unit out of box my original pj still works great after a year of service). I tried to feel for a hot fet or cap but nothing obvious.
Thanks Oztules and others for ide.
as and inspiration!
Lighthunter
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lighthunter
As you probably guessed by now it sounds like you have a bad transformer.
Might be wise to replace /rebuild before it causes more problems.
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You have replaced the transformer... so we have to assume it is not that.
The transformers can also act as a loud speaker, telling you what signals are going on inside through it... it is after all a coil without the cardboard cone, but it still makes noise.
It is possible that the control card has either a loose driver ic, noisy totem transistor, or some other temp sensitive problem, introducing spurious noise into the output stage.
Replace the control card with the other one, and see if that stops it... if so warranty if it is new, or buy another card.... we need to isolate the problem .. this may do it.
It could be a broken/cracked track on the power card going from the ground plane to the fet source... some of those tracks are pretty thin... use a magnifying glass to check this.... and a bright light.
It is hard to see other problems as being on the power card, unless you have a poor connection anywhere there... check bolt tensions on lv leads both on the sinks and the inlet terminals.
I would have expected loose terminals anywhere to show up by now as heat spots, so noisy transistors on the control card is the most probable source of traceless noise that is not the transformer......also check your inductor.
In closing, it is a modular unit, so you can replace the control card, or the power card or the transformers one at a time to see where it is coming from. You may get some result by measuring the output voltage of the power supply on the board.. is has a 3846 type chip in normal pwm mode supplying the voltage for the units operation and high side supplies as well... any noise in this circuit effects everything.
The beauty of these things is that you can source all the parts cheaply, and have spares on hand for peanuts.... unlike the name brands where a fault is a real headache/heart stopper ( ask Rossw ), and you won't have spare boards.... and it will be an expensive expensive problem to deal with.... at the very worst, this thing will cost less than $200 to completely rebuild.. less the transformers.... thats amazing!!
Voltage increase:
The voltage divider on the cards, is a very high impedance ladder of 4+megohm resistors ( from memory).... and is very susceptible to moisture if you have no anti wetting agent there in a damp environment ( read CRC or equivalent). Any ( even megohm plus) leakage between rails in this ladder will effect the divider voltage the chip sees.
So even a 10meg resistor placed across the ladder at different points from the ac source down to the eventual chip divider will make an increasing difference to the output voltage... it is a long divider network.... very substantial difference would be found by shunting the last 3 or 4 resistors in the strings with the at least10meg I would think.
Have not needed to do this, so I can't say exactly how to place the resistor for your application, but that is how I would approach it... or 1 meg for starters in series with the string should alter it a bit too.... but that will mean messing with the surface mount stuff invasively.
................oztules
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OK, is there a transformer, and a toroid in this?
Or did you replace a transformer with a large toroid wound to purpose?
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1st of all Thanks a million for your ideas and suggestions! It sure helps think about things I might have overlooked.
When i came home from work today, much to my surprise the system had run nonstop without any faults. (for right now, setup depends on this wounded inverter for dump load which had to run most of the day!)
Wolvenar, Single transformer unit came fused at20A i think, its approx a 3KW toroid. I replaced it with a used toroid i picked up on ebay for $100 this winter made in california by powertronics. It had specs of prim:37V/60hz sec 235v@12.5A. I put Em side by side and connected both to 120v and measured the original at 22.01VAC and powertronix at 21.83VAC. The powertronix is a fair bit heavier and larger diameter but not as thick. Anyway, it was close enuf for me to try it, (I can c a 240V/120Vsplit phase mod comiing in near future:). Functionally it was perfect replacement but I couldnt fit lid on of course.
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cont. So back to my surprise that wounded pj had run well all day, i listen close and problem still exists but not bad, i grab dc current clamp and check, 24v current is only 2 amps high (31.4A@700w) I hadnt had time to do any board swapping yet as Oztules suggested (thankyou). It was obvious that leaving the chassis open had improved the situation (come to think of it ive never seen fans come on on this unit). Anyway, from info Oztules suggested, and past bad experiencs with dip sockets, i pressed down on driver IC's while running, the unwanted noise went away and current went down 1 amp. My other identical pj runs same load at 29A, the other amp comes from core size difference in toroid, i noticed idle current was up a bit immediately after changing transformer. Both inverters, idle at about 26w with original parts according to my test equip and procedures.(errors are inevitable, ex. dc v variance etc.
The noise, (originally was loud arcing sound with occasional pops) now is barely audible with occasional tick sounds will completely go away when applying pressure to A3120 driver chips and sockets but slight evidence of problem returns randomly.
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Cont... so it looks like i need to order a new control board. Now to decide if i want to go with 48v :)
In case anyone is wondering why im using 3 inverters and a 300lb transformer for a 2.2kw panel, its because of a very frustrating grid tie inverter im using. HF pure sine. Does a wonderful job at very high efficiency as long as you can satisfy it. Specs are, 3500w 2 channel mppt 13.5A each, dc range 100-600VDc mppt range 150-420. 208/240 60hz. for a while it seemed like this thing would go offline if you sneezed. This is a prodjguct of dow chemical (we want to look green) business venture with Emerson made for "solar shingles" which entered the residential market for 3-4 yrs and disappeared. The emerson grid tie doesnt like it when you switch loads connected between it and pj. The control starts out day by running a 360w 230v to 24v led ps to charge bank until sun is strong enough then Pj turns on, 5min countdown starts, @ T=20 sec a medium load starts, once grid tie comes online and finishes ramp up then load will either stay on or turn off depending on battery level and solar input. As long as power removed gti seems ok with it. The GTI also doesnt mind if pj is putting away power into batteries at levels of 2150w. It just doesnt like to be tickled by loads switching. I ordered some zero crossing SSRs that may solve issue. It doesnt help to have 300lbs of transformer core between GTI and pj, im guessing the abrupt change in current when a load is switched produces a spike, no voltage drop under load though (10GA square wire 240v center tapped winding). Therefore any xtra power over approx 1kw must be sent to bat bank and taken out by second inverter. Great sun lately though, 42kw in 5days with many 5min resets during first 4 days. Hopefully solid state relays will fix problem, ive tried moving 240v grid tie point up and down 10 v seems to run best at 245 tap but this can crawl to 259 when producing heavy. Limit is 266. this emerson gti was not made under AS4777 only i think it had to comply with another code for us rules, iwhile the pj is backfeeding power into battery bank the needle on amp guage seems to be indicating a pulse every second that is positive going doesnt seem like skipping cycles, it checks for a grid in about every imaginable way. It will be a couple of days before i get back to this but thanks again for all the help!
Cheers, Lighthunter
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Well looks like you have narrowed it down a bit.
May be a noisy driver chip too, perhaps swap them around and see if the problem follows one of them.... may also be a fracture in the fine tracks in the board.. pressing down the chip affects more than just the legs to socket interfaces.
Zero crossing will be worse if your driving/switching larger transformer loads... they hate zero crossing start... opposite to what you would think.. they prefer full peak start, they will then exhibit no inrush current... at zero start, they will heave with inrush currents for the first few cycles until the magnetization catches up with the program... inrush on torroids can be debilitating, as the current can be 60 times magnetization current. Just built a power supply with 3kw torroid... needs a soft start circuit, or blows the 20amp overloader instantly about 50% of the time.... but once running has very low current at idle.
Resistive loads will do better though.... nothing is straightforward.... sigh...
The quality of the silicon steel used in the torroids will strongly affect the idle current. If the PJ tranny is heavier on the current, then it is lower quality than the other, or if the californian one is drawing more, then it is lower quality... depends where they get their steel from, and at what grade.... assuming same wattage ratings. Idle temp will give it away too.
In this country, high grade transformer steel is hyper expensive, so there is a cost analysis done very carefully... and a compromise will be reached.... I suspect in China, the difference will be less, so they may opt for the better steel as the price may not be that different..... it seems volume makes a difference to everything.
I got some transformers from the HEC ( Hydro Electric Commision), and the EI transformers were 4 times better idle current than the run of the mill laminates with eddy currents etc... like buying them from Nasa I guess.... money was no object.
Back in the day, I got hold of some racking units from the Goddard space flight center at the hyball project in Mildura for the 60's moonshots ( upper atmosphere weather up in the dessert) It was a Nasa thing.... all ......and I mean all ..the wiring was pure silver, and teflon coated...never even heard of teflon then... (ever tried to strip that wire???)....no copper anywhere to be found..... nice to have deep pockets. They were built to last forever...but probably outdated by the time they were pushed into operation though.
Always 48v for me.... never less.
............oztules
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:) You are absolutely right Oz, switched the driver chips between 2 inverters and now the noise is in the other inverter, accidently put cover on b4 checking it out and the heat thrown from toroid really causes trouble. Lid off, fan on chips, works ok. (New chips are ordered, A3120 opto).
I also did the split phase 120/240 mod. Works great! Except, MR. GTI wasnt impressed. Wouldnt even acknowledge AC was connected should have been within parameter limits oh well, so I get out the utility knife and cut a trace, jumpered in 470k resistor and PJ went from 111v to 116. (GTI parameter say 107min 130max phase to neutral) Turn power back on and believe it or not, i can add and drop 110v loads without a hitch I even hooked up 800w water heater element hot with arcs an sparks, the grid tie never even flinched. It wont let me connect loads to 240v side though. Now i need more batteries and (driver ICs of course). Project is close to done. Thanks Oztules and Wolvenar for thoughts an ideas! To increase PJ output voltage cut trace between R259 and R262, solder in A resistor to join back up and you are good to go. 470k gave me 5 volt increase.
Later Lighthunter
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I had a bit of a bright idea . . . which turned out puzzling.
Ages ago I bought a cheap ebay LF unit from Power Jack seller Albee and it turned out to be one of those nightshift units - sold as a 6000W unit in a big box it only had one transformer in it with the rating blacked out. It served a time but it was the first generation of power boards which I found unreliable, and it blew its FETs one day for no accountable reason. The boards have been upgraded so I guess it was a common problem. I got the new power and control boards to fit but didn't get around to doing so.
I'm based on a 24volt system so everything that I write currently is in respect to that. (I've got a 48V system planned . . . )
Interestingly the transformer is labelled 17.5V primary and 230V secondary.
Having been given some defunct UPS inverters I've tried the transformers from those on a spare set of PJ boards . . . and when connected on the low voltage side, the transformers not connected to the control circuits on the high voltage side gave between 220 and 250V depending on the transformer, but the electronics shut down within around 10secs sounding the alarm, presumably because it didn't detect the secondary voltage. When connecting the secondaries to the boards as intended, the output voltage was only 180V to 210V depending on the transformers, so using these transformers with the PJ electronics was an abortive idea.
I'm using a PJ LF 8000W to power part of my house off grid. It's great but we have to remember not to turn the kettle on when the washing machine or dishwasher is on, a significant disadvantage.
This unit uses two transformers. The primaries are in series, as if capable of serving the 12V range of units, with the secondaries in parallel. I had the great idea to use the transformer of the 6000 - 5000 unit, also 24 volt in parallel with these two.
However, when running the 5000 transformer in parallel with the two transformers of the 8000LF it gives only 215V whilst the two in parallel give 230V. Putting the output in parallel with the 8000LF transformers causes internal consumption of 1250W with no output.
This seems rather high for a mismatch of only 15V at the output but clearly to be successful I need an exact duplicate 8000LF to double up.
It would be nice if there was a way to get control boards to synchronise so that one could piggyback these inverters.
Best wishes
OTW
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"I'm using a PJ LF 8000W to power part of my house off grid. It's great but we have to remember not to turn the kettle on when the washing machine or dishwasher is on, a significant disadvantage."
If you know you will not drive it too hard for the transformers, the current bypass around the CT will solve the coffee dilemma.... but if you drive it too hard for too long, then your transformers will over heat.
Mine had bypass for 8kw cont, bu the transformer is a monster too.
You can alternatively lower the resistance of the resistor next to ZD2 at the front of the board where the 12v goes off to the display It has the words adjust next to it, and looks like a hand solder, not machine solder in general. It is a shunt across the output of the CT, and so will lower it's EMF and so allow the current to be higher than the 12 secs or so.
BUT this should not be done to run the thing for extended periods of 8kw... your transformers would need oil cooling for that, or bigger ones..
Also if you intend to drive it harder for longer, you will need a better cooling system, or run the fan continuously works too. This is due to the current seen by the computer is not what is really happening. The fets don't mind in the 48v units, but the fan algorithym is messed up more than it is norma;;y... I don't use their fan at all now, have my own controller in there.
Your 15v mismatch is enormous for torroids. The reason these things can run so well for so small a size ( compared to EI units) is their very tight magnetic properties... ie there is very little leakage, so 1volt mismatch would be absorbed in the leakage fairly readily in an EI unit, but in these things it will make a real difference.... 15v will make a huge monumental difference.... and I am surprised the idle power did not get worse than 1kw. You will need to add turns and get them the same before you attempt to parallel them.... you may be able to fit a few turns of battery cable in there to equalise them.
If you wanted to synchronise them I would intercept the control signals to the totem and the optos,and get a take off, then isolate them on the second board, and feed them from the first.... common the ground, and it should work. It means on the second board, none of the control functions will have any real effect, so the first board in fact controls everything, and only uses the fets and drivers of the second board... the second board will see the output, and try making correction perhaps but will have no effect, but the fans will come on in high temp only, not current...... very crude but would work I think....... also the current sense will only reflect one output... but this would be a good thing in this case.
Pleased you have nailed it Lighthunter.
................oztules
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Thanks
Very helpful indeed.
Yes - I suppose I could add turns on the secondary of the 5000LF transformer that's low by 15V
I wonder if anyone's looked at those transformers to find turns per volt on them? Didn't I read somewhere that someone had rewound a toroid or was that from one of the scrap grid tie inverters?
Silly question - but there's no point in reinventing the wheel - has anyone drawn out the circuit diagram surrounding the optos to isolate and run from another board? But in fact the result would still be the same with mismatched transformers as they require the control signals dedicated to each transformer to regulate for the 230V output.
Many thanks
Best wishes
OTW
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Hi everyone
Bought this inverter from Power Jack 5000 LF couple of months ago but never got to actually use it until i got the battery bank ready. got that ready, got solar panels to charge my battery but my inverter stops working for some reason. I think is because it overheats, trying to use my washing machine and when the water heater from the washing machine kicks in it gives out 3 short beeps and turns off. The watts on the display goes up to 2500 - 2600 and i thought it supposedly halve a continuous 5000 watts. Any help is appreaciated, hence i can't get in contact with the seller from ebay. Thank you
Yes it's all true.
In a moment of weakness I decided to buy a power jack inverter to play with.... and it looks like this.
(Attachment Link)
It looks like this inside... warranty blown right there......
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Well there it is.
This one is a 24v unit ( my mistake ), but it can do what it says. I can run loads of 6kw or more without problems.... I had the electric stove on, the hot water on and then the water jug..... and it turned off after a minute or so.... can't complain really, the stove was 3200w the hot water some 2500w, and the jug another 2500w... so all up it tried to do over 8000w... I don't now if it was batt under voltage, or power overload... one or the other, because over 8000w is over 300 amps, and I think I had voltage drop in the line... surprise suprise.
The 200 amp meters were way past their stops, and it will never again have to try this, but i could not get it to trip any other way.
So it was impressive to say the least. It also started the 3 phase converter, which is a 3 ph 10hp induction motor running in delta@240v from single phase...... so it can start darn big inductive loads too..
About this time I was becoming rather impressed, as i didn't think it had the ticker for this kind of abuse, so it seemed I needed to take a more serious look at this thing.
I had bought it because it was darn cheap, with free shipping to this island.... and as it weighs over 60lbs or 32kg, it is not so easy to get stuff that heavy sent here... so I bought it as a back up.
I was becoming of the view that this wasn't a toy like the ones I had heard and seen on the web earlier.... so decided to do some more testing.
Well it wasn't all tea and bikkies I'm afraid.
The engineers have not addressed the idle current other than a sleep mode at 25 watts.... but an awake mode of no power draw costs a whopping 8 amps..... yes you read that right .... 8 amps at idle.
Now as a cheap back up this is acceptable.... but as a house driving unit.. it is not good news to burn up over 5kwh a day and do nothing.
So it was time to try a few things we have learnt from the other unit I have ( the power star thing).
It already has two whopping torroids ( worth buying just for them ), so it was not going to be addressed like the power star was.
So I wound this:
(Attachment Link)
This solved the problem.... now idle currents were down in the sub 1 amp range.... in fact now it could be alive all the time, and waste less than 20 watts..... less than their sleep mode...... so 3 and a half turns around a 65mm e core made the thing very very acceptable as a front line unit..... who'd have thought.... a power jack as a front line unit.
Well it's true, it has been running the house... including the electric hot water for the last few weeks. The only thing on grid is the stove.... so usage from the grid was about 1kwh per day, and the house was running at about 11-13 kwh/day.
There was one other thing of interest here.
I have panels running at 300 volts and more intp grid tie inverters into the batteries via the inverter.... ie the grid ties run on the output of the inverter. When the house loads are greater than the grid ties can manage, the inverter takes up the slack, when the grid ties put out more than the house can use, the extra is fed back through the inverters output, and back through the sitching fets and transformers into the batteries.
I have seen in excess of 170 amps being back fed into the batteries via this method. The drawback is you need a big dump load on the batteries, or a cut out system to sequentially turn off the grid ties to keep the batteries from over charge.
If this is allowed to go, then the power jack will turn off when the batteries exceed 32v... which is the final safety in all of this.....THIS DOES NOT INVOLVE THE GRID for those folks wondering..... this is strictly off grid antics.
It is interesting to note, that without the e core filter in series with the primaries of the transformers, it would not grid tie to the grid inverters... but rather, blow all the overloaders in the ac line to the inverters.
With the filter in place, it was perfectly happy to be the grid, and sync the grid ties to it's output, and reverse flow the power to the batteries.... but not without the carrier filter.
So the big filter did two things, made the inverter a classy unit, and allowed it to back feed grid tie inverter inputs into it's outputs.
To say that I am impressed is an understatement. It appears bullet proof, and the spare parts ARE available.
Thats the clincher for me, in fact after I chased them up, they have even put the spares on ebay... about 170 dollars for the entire innards of the machine... ie power board, and control board, battery selector board, and driver board for the display..... just add transformers and a box, and you have built your own..
Before you rush out and do just that...... it is heaps cheaper to just buy theirs, as the cost of those torroids over here are over 1500 dollars alone, cheaper in the UK, don't know about USA. The transformers are over 25 lbs each....
One problem I had was the 24v part... I was set up for 48v..... so I had to do something about it.
I rearranged the battery pack to reflect the new setup... now it was 1500AH @ 24v
Re wired the solar panels for 24v ( left 4kw as 350v for the real grid ties ), and that gave me about 130amps of 35v solar power.
Now I needed a controller.
I sat down and scribbled a circuit of sorts out, and fleshed it out as I designed the board.. and finished up with this
(Attachment Link)
It is about 10am, and already it is up at 80 amps
(Attachment Link)
I have seen it at 120 amps. The heat sink ( and no those burn marks are form when this heat sink belonged to someone elses 2500w HF pure sine inverter) stays at less than just over skin temp even at high currents. The wave form is very clean, but swithcing at only about 4khz... makes the "layout" simple.
Here is the current going to the batteries after the power jack has used a few up from the incoming 80 odd amps
(Attachment Link)
May do an article on that if folks really want to try it.
Here is the wave form of the makeshift "solar controller" ( not the power jack.... that is pure sine) when it is running at only 40 or so amps after the bulk of the charging is done ( mid morning )
(Attachment Link)
All in all...... I love my power jack..... did not expect to ever say that in a million years.
................oztules
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I rewind the torroids from the grid ties, and until you stack them they are in the 1.14v/turn... would guess those PJ are close to 1v/turn... but have no real idea.
If you really want to play around a bit, you can improve the efficiency of your present transformers.
You need to unwind the secondaries, and stack the two cores with their primaries together as a stack, and rewind the secondaries, with half the turns and twice the cross section..... you will end up with lot pf spare wire, as you will have gotten rid of 2 x coil ends in the process, so less resistance.
If you really want to drive the thing hard and use the jug all the time with the washer, and the dishwasher, you need to totally unwind the three transfromer cores you have, and stack them all together, epoxy them perhaps to keep noise to zero.
Then rewind the primary on the three stack at 1/3 the turns of the orginals, and then the secondaries at 1/3 the original turns and three times the cross section, then you will have eliminated effectively three x two coil ends on both the HV and the LV side.
Your resistance will have come down significantly, and your power handling has gone up.... plus the more you stack, the easier it is to wind as the turns drop off quickly...
So thats something to play with if you can't get grid ties easily.
Yes, the transformers need to be matched for stacking... use two identical PJ units..... easier to modify and use more transformers.
I now have the 15kw driver boards, so they need no mods for the 8kw cont or thereabouts... but no different than fooling the 8kw ones in reality, as I don't use their fan regime.... the transformer is bigger than most old industrial welders though
................oztules
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Rob, the 5000w from PJ will never get there unless you modify it. They are generally good for about half the rated continuous power... what we call continuous, and they call continuous differs remarkably.. for them 12sec is continuous, for the rest of us it is indeterminate.
There are a lot of variants of the PJ it seems, you never get two the same, and the pricing seems to change what you get. If you win a cheap auction, the machine may have smaller transformers, and less transformers.... and less continuous power... they seem to build whatever, and program it respectively.
It can be made to do it, but requires modifications to the transformer, and the current transformer on the board. The current bypass around the CT will get you your power for sure in a few minutes of work..........., but your heating will be problematic.... they are cheap for a reason, but are brilliant value none the less.
That quote is from my first PJ... I bought it fairly dear, but it had two of their biggest transformers in it, and it was programmed accordingly.... very impressed I bought another cheaply on auction not buy it now expensive.... it had small transformers and worked accordingly... thats when I realized there were PJ's and PJ's, and we get what we pay for to a fair extent... it is still a lucky dip i think.. but dollar for watt they are superb, and you can get the parts if you need.
If you want more power, and have no electrickery bones in you, then there is only the option to buy a much bigger unit, and allow for about half power continuous if PJ
The other alternative is to get the W7 powerstar units, around the same sort of price but they will do what they say, but you lose 5kwh/day in idle costs you can't change without changing the transformers to torroids or high quality laminated EI transformers.
There are very few cheap LF inverters out there. The flagship ones like the selectronic or Latronics are very expensive.. so not on my radar, the victron LF hybrids are expensive and have no guts for driving decent sized 3hp motors.. so we are left with PJ and whatever mods we think we need for our purposes. At least the PJ can be anything we want, and parts are available for those of us in remote locations.
If your in Aust and can get inspire grid ties for peanuts, then a rewind and a CT bypass would get the 5kw up to continuous for a hundred dollars or so. If you have no such inclination, resell the unit and buy something that you feel will do what you want... but it is not hard to make these things do anything really.
What voltage are you running?
...............oztules
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OZT - thanks for the info about stacking the transformers. Very very interesting. I'm sure that I might not be the only reader to be a little confused by your description as to what remains wrapped around what and which gets rewound around the lot.
But my priority at the moment is a quick and dirty fix . . . ;-)
Certainly these units do very well and even unmodified this morning I found clotheswasher on, toaster, hoover, 750W dehumidifier and in all just exceeding 4kW for quite some time. One would pay a fortune for a Victron to do even that . . .
There are a lot of variants of the PJ it seems, you never get two the same, and the pricing seems to change what you get. If you win a cheap auction, the machine may have smaller transformers, and less transformers....
. . . . I bought it fairly dear, but it had two of their biggest transformers in it, and it was programmed accordingly.... very impressed I bought another cheaply on auction not buy it now expensive.... it had small transformers and worked accordingly... thats when I realized there were PJ's and PJ's, and we get what we pay for to a fair extent... it is still a lucky dip i think.. but dollar for watt they are superb, and you can get the parts if you need.
I've realised that getting even two of these units exactly the same might be a challenge. I was offered a 6kW 12V unit at good value enough for me to keep in stock and lots of people want 12V units for mobile uses. Thinking that it would have 2 3000W transformers was a mistake - it has one transformer, two fans now, and the single transformer labelled 8000W. At 12V really this doesn't matter as people's cables and batteries will be the limiting factors rather than the inverter really preventing it working for long periods at high capacity. Anyway - I digress - I didn't get my 2 transformers there to put together for extra 24V capacity.
So for the quick and dirty fix. . . . I've taken the 5000W LF transformer out of the case and the coils are neatly wrapped in some clearly high temperature film. There are three options:
1. Possibly remove a turn from the primary
2. Add an extra coil of around 10-15 turns to put in series with the secondary to increase the voltage by 15V.
3. Do something more radical
2. will be easy but I could do with a source of high temperature film to keep the new turns in place.
1. could be easy but messy.
Does anyone know how the PJ transformers are wound? Primary on top of secondary or underneath? If on top removing a turn from the coil could be easy. I don't want to explore and make a mess of a very neat and well constructed transformer . . .
Best wishes
OTW
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Torroids are remarkable things to work with .. everything about them is wonderful... except winding the things.
If you want to take turns off ....... without invasive surgery ( 240 winding looks to be internal winding) you need only wind a few turns in the opposite direction..... on the outside...... and you have it........ so easy with torroids. Same with the LV windings, but physically more difficult as they are lots in hand wire.... so they are very easy to "tune".... we pay a price of more copper and associated R, but in this case, it will be in the HV side, so not as critical as the LV high current side. I haven't messed with the PJ transformers, but assume they only run 2mm wire on the HV side.... so easy to wind turns on the outside and change things.... up or down.
So every turn in the opposite direction nullifies that many original turns, any added turns in the original direction, adds to the original winding..... so you can see we can modify without messing the original one up. ( this assumes we series the new turns with the original winding).... so try it, wind a dozen turns around the 5kw units tranny, and series these turns with the 240v winding.... first one way, then the other and see the difference. ... they add or subtract....... now thats quick and dirty fix...
The stacking is very useful too. Same idea. If you strip all the multi core winding off the outside, it leaves only the 240v inner winding on the core. If we have two of these the same,we simply stack them one on top the other.... totally separate from each other.. just physically piggy backed. If they are not the same we can "tune "them as above.
Now we simply wind our LV winding around both of them, treating the new twin stack core as a single entity....... we then parallel the HV windings for twice the power handling in the HV side, and we have a new transformer, twice the power, lower resistance than if we had two separate ones in the LV winding because the winding path is now shorter... where we have the two stacks touching each other.... there is no LV wire ... just the original HV wires.... so we have saved that by 2 times.
We now have 1/2 the turns on the LV winding, as it now encompasses twice the core area than original, so half the turns, and so we can now double the wire cross section to make up for that...... we get a more powerful transformer as we have shortened the wire path, so resistance goes down, as does temperature.
We can strip off the HV windings too, and glue the two cores together, and we free up more wire length, ( where the cores are glued...no wire, so we have saved those parts of the turns from each core... we have to wind only half the turns now, as we have doubled the core cross section area, so less turns to tussle with ( doubled the volts per turn)... now we are getting a big saving is space and resistance... and easier on the bloke winding it too.... can you see how much wire gets saved when you three stack... starts to get seriously good... 4 lots of wire sides are taken out of existence.... thats an entire transformer worth of wire saved for the same result, so the R heat of a whole transformer is now gone... and thats I^2R heat too.... thats how my big one is wound... three massive torroids.
Remember, with torroids it is only the wire in the core space that does anything useful, all the rest of it just gets it back into the core for the next turn.... ie three out of four sides play no part in the transforming, only the inner wires count, the rest is just resistance we suffer... all the magic happens in the hole in the middle.
Will do a mock up tomorrow as demo if I get time, and it will become clearer.
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Incredibly helpful information and thank you so much. It is rather a good idea to do reverse winding rather than take off, as you say.
I did an experiment today with a winding of 11 turns and it gave a 6.5 to 7 volt result. When added to the HV winding this gave the same 226V or so result as the unit in use but as it was under a 1200W load, the reading isn't comparable and I will repeat this evening with the house turned over to the grid and the inverter at rest to get both transformers at equal potential.
This thread that you've inspired and helped so many with is really brilliant as the PJ inverters really do enable so many of us to experiment with off-grid power that was too expensive to be imaginable a decade ago.
Many thanks
Best wishes
OTW
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[attachimg=1]
If you use your imagination, the front three torroids can be power transformers with the primary already wound, and the one on the right has a few turns of secondary on it..
The stack of three at the back has a secondary on as well.... you can see there is a shorter wire length on the stack, than three secondaries like the red on on the three separate ones.... so thats for the secondaries.
If you imagine now how much wire you would save on the three stack on the primaries.... there will be no more wire between the torroids, and the primary will be the same as the black secondary.... so a big saving.
It makes the primary more than windable too... ie instead of 200 turns for mine, it is only 70 odd ( cant recall ) but not as bad as the 200 odd.... to get more current carrying power, we do need to use more in hand wire for the primary, but it seems easier to do three lots of 70 than one lot of 210.... you can use smaller bobbins, and this makes it easier to wind nicely.
...........oztules
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We now have 1/2 the turns on the LV winding, as it now encompasses twice the core area than original, so half the turns, and so we can now double the wire cross section to make up for that...... we get a more powerful transformer as we have shortened the wire path, so resistance goes down, as does temperature.
I'm confused by this - I can understand halving the number of LV turns if the HV windings are in series but isn't it the ratio of the number of turns from LV to HV side that needs to be maintained if the HV windings are in parallel?
Still to negotiate shipping costs on a couple of sets of PJ boards, maybe if I can get them without heat-sinks the freight will be much less (can get HUGE chunks of aluminium from the local scrap yard!).
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I'm confused by this - I can understand halving the number of LV turns if the HV windings are in series but isn't it the ratio of the number of turns from LV to HV side that needs to be maintained if the HV windings are in parallel?
Wonderful post on this subject - OZT - thanks so much. But I wasn't going to trouble you to say that I was equally confused on just this aspect also without making sure that your great contribution and help was of wider interest than just to me.
The ability to save power with these transformers makes working with the PJ units as components really worthwhile even if one does have access to bigger and dirty transformers. I've got a 48V 150Amp battery charger to turn into an inverter at some stage . . .
Best wishes
OTW
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I won't go into the theory, so this is an inaccurate representation of what we can see, rather than calculate the cross sectional area of the core, and area of the loops etc etc.... I aint that smart.
So I will explain it incorrectly but for the same result.
Looking at the three stack above.. look at the length of wire in each turn in each of the primary and secondary ( black wire secondary here).
Because the primaries will be parallel, nothing changes there, and they can be considered as a single winding , three times the current of a single one... just as we would expect.
Each primary has only 1/3rd the total length/height of the "new" torroid... ( only talking about the length in the core area, forget the rest).....
Now look at the black secondary, its length is three times the length of each of the primary bits in the core, and exposed to the same field all the way through..... so it is effectively three electrical turns compared to the primaries for each real physical turn... so in effect the turns ratio of any one of the primaries to the single secondary is the same as in the original if we divide the secondary by three.... as all three primaries are parallel, this holds for all of it.
More properly we would look at the core area.... the primaries are only wound around 1/3 the core than the secondary is wound.. so the secondary will exhibit three times the EMF than a single turn of the primary would do.... so the secondary needs to be divided by three to keep the "turns ratio" the same, as they are not in the same environment.... one of those explanations should get the ahha reflex going.
Your turns ratio that you are talking about only holds true if the turns are on the same core... here we have pulled a shifty ... and the core of the secondary is three times the size of any primary..... so different frames of reference really.
We would do this to not have to rewind the whole thing. Some folks don't want to unwind the 200 turn inner core, and so this helps them get some better efficiency... we can see that a full rewind allows us to use 1/3 the number of inner turns too, and then the same physical ratio as the original will be in place as they will share the same cores this time..... but look at all the wire you save then... gets worthwhile to do the whole rewind...... trust me.... I'm an idiot....
Here it is in real life
First the two transformers:
[attachimg=1]
Then we wrap them together with tape after pulling off the 130v winding ... keeping only the 240v winding on each core:
[attachimg=2]
Then wind your secondary for 48v for two cores... note the number.
[attachimg=3]
Then we do it with three cores... and look at the drop in turns of the primary LV winding now
[attachimg=4]
Actually that has full rewind of 1/3 the 240v original, and 1/3 the LV original I would have needed.
Frackers.....
I would try to get the 15kw driver and a complete 15kw power card.. the heat sinks don't weigh very much anyway, but would be a pain to reproduce properly.... I have seen those boards advertised last week on the USA site I think.... they were not obvious, and may take some ebay skill to find.... that way it is an off the shelf 7-8kw unit.
edit: found it http://www.ebay.com/itm/Main-Board-Control-Board-for-LF3000-15000w-pure-sine-wave-power-inverter-/121372307145?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item1c425a6ec9
....................oztules
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I would try to get the 15kw driver and a complete 15kw power card.. the heat sinks don't weigh very much anyway, but would be a pain to reproduce properly.... I have seen those boards advertised last week on the USA site I think.... they were not obvious, and may take some ebay skill to find.... that way it is an off the shelf 7-8kw unit.
edit: found it http://www.ebay.com/itm/Main-Board-Control-Board-for-LF3000-15000w-pure-sine-wave-power-inverter-/121372307145?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item1c425a6ec9
Aaaahhhhh "Does not ship to New Zealand"
Boo hoo
I'll see if a mate in the USA or UK can re-ship...
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The big 15kw mainboard is definitely worth while, as is the 15kw control card.
It amazes me that you can "buy it now" a 15kw unit for $999 - $2100 " buy it now"
..... can't begin to guess what differences there are inside... but at least the boards will be the same i think.. and they really do rock.
The 8kw units are ( the ones I have anyway) are the same as the 15kw mainboard electrically, but the huge sinks are useful in real use, as the fan can be off nearly all the time....
The 8kw units can perform the same as the 15kw units, if you cool them accordingly, and increase the current ( throttle back the CT)...except for the transformers, and they are under done in all cases for proper ratings................ but the extra real estate on the 15kw is well worth it for my money.... get it if you can.
I have rebuilt a 8kw mainboard with vey large heat sinks, but it is definately easier with the originals.
...............oztules
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Thanks so much for your transformer photos and explanations - really helpful.
I find it odd that the transformers are not cooled through an air current through their centre . . .
One does not need to go through ebay to buy. If you email powerjack.cher )at( >gmail< )dot( com she will help and say that David in England put you in touch.
The information above in this thread is relevant. I bought a cheaper unit from the stock in Ireland and the unit had one transformer instead of two with extra cooling. For 12V I'm not concerned about that but for house systems on 24 or 48V it's important to get the 8000W unit with two transformers or the 15000 with three. It may be better to order from Cher and have it sent from China, paying the extra, and she really does do her best within her power to do so to make sure that what is sent out is what one wants. It's probably going to cost more than you think you can get it on ebay, but it will be worth whatever extra you pay.
Best wishes
OTW
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Yes, Cher is helpful, there is no doubt.
The first 8000w 24v pj had 2 of their 5000w transformers.. the second ( 8000w 48v) had two 3000w transformers, and we have seen 1 single transformer and fan.
If you can source torroids in NZ, then buy just the 15kw boards, if not,,,, take a deep breath and order the biggest transformers PJ can get into it.... big torroids are very expensive anywhere else unless you can get hold of heavy grid ties... these dead grid ties will be cheap, and the best you will get I suspect.
If you can source older transformers from old welders, and are prepared to suck it and see, the laminates may be good enough to squeak through,..... nowhere near as good as a poor torroid, but heaps better than the W7 power star transformers that loose 5kwh/day..... a good welder transformer thoughtfully rewired ( keep the fields well well away from saturation) should yield good results.... maybe as low as 1-2kwh/day or better..... good torroids will get to less than .5kwh/day if you try hard.
If you "over wind" the coils, you will get slightly higher copper losses, but will probably more than make up for it with lower iron losses... ie wind for 300v:37v instead of say 240v:30v as you would with a torroid.... this gets the field strength down, and that drops off the magnetising current way more than linearly if they wound originally near saturation( and they probably would... no reason to give you more iron than absolutely necessary is there....).... stacking cores makes this even easier to achieve as the winding is easier and less turns, so a few more is not that big of a deal mentally...
Plenty for the Fracked one to ponder now.
................oztules
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Amazing info Oztules, on transformer winding! Ive had a couple discussions with the wise and learned about winding techniques ive learned from you ;D Good stuff, Not everyone willing to think outside box. :)
I received fet driver chips. Since I couldnt get identical ones locally i thought it might be good to post in case someone thinks substitute is bad idea. First pic is original IC A3120 second pic is FOD3120 fairchilds' version of the circuit. Supposed to be a higher current less noise design.
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Fairchild 3120 installed, seems to work fine. Still not sure about diode omission???
Only tested to modest 800w will get better workout tomorrow.
Cheers, Lighthunter
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It only switches at 50hz.... should struggle on fine i suspect.
The high side heat sink is always cooler than the high frequency low side for that reason.
I trust the noise has gone now.
.............oztules
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Yes, inverter is extremely quiet now. Its become daily runner now since it has.
Volt increase and 120/240 capable. I dont think fan ckt works at all so i just tie it
To the 24v thru a resistor for a medium speed. Did u rig a hall effect switch on battery
Leads or how did you do fan control?
"The High side heat sink is always cooler than the high frequency low side for that reason." ..
....ok theres Something i dont understand about the circuit then. I had thought this was just an.
H bridge switching bat current thru low v winding at say 5khz. Basically a class D amplifier using hf pwm to simulate 60hz or 50 whichever. I think you are suggesting something a little different. Oh i get it, they are only switching the polarity at one side of winding at 50/60hz while pwm is all done on the other side of winding. so that would mean they were already using the pwm fets for bi-directinal current b-e-f-o-r-e you used them to back up power from grid ties to battery.
Just guessing, i havent had power board out to hav a look. Yep, im slow to catch on. I really hadnt looked closely at a class d amp until a few months ago.
Thanks for thoughts! by the way i actually saw 2160 steady from 2.2k pnl today usually 1850 is max.
Regards,
Lighthunter
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Fan circuit was just an op-amp, a fet and a ntc sensor ..... maybe a dollar all up.... Measure the heat sink temp on the low side switcher... and it will cut in ( 38C) and out.... depending on feedback it can be bang bang, or gradient.
Yes you can think of it as a D class low side and a hard switching high side. Every half cycle, we turn on an alternate set of high side full on for 100% duty, and low side "D" class for the waveform.... ie amplitude modulation by pulse width for the sine wave.... probably looks visually not too unlike an FM modulated signal come to think of it.........well sort off......... We can also change the frequency of the low side if necessary ( power levels increase) , as well as the pwm.
..................oztules
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Thanks for clarifying low side winding drive ckt! :)
I cant believe how well setup is working at this point. No issues at all.
It collected 117Kwh in 16 days with fixed panel 2kw-2.2kw panel (200w
Panel added part way thru time period. More than twice the pwr i was getting.
Last year. Keeps up with all the water htr demand plus a few other small loads.
I see so many on other forums dying to have a setup that will run off grid if needed.
The cost is so high and ao few options with equipment. This setup with a PJ a GTI and few.
Batteries is all anyone could ask for! Thanks Oz for your direction in this setup.
By the way, it appears the pj watt-hr meter runs backwards. My meter now reads 6 digits and i knowthats not correct.... not important i guess. Wondered if anyone else had that experience in this config.
Best regards, Lighthunter
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Big Thanks to Oztules and the rest for such a great thread.
I did read the whole thread a little while ago (long enough to have forgotten quite a bit) - but it has inspired me to acquire a pair of 2.5kW Aero-sharps. Crikey!! I can't believe how heavy they are !!!
I presume they are virtually identical to Inspire inverters ?
I also presume the toroids are larger than the 1.5kW since they are 7kg heavier??
I've only just taken the lid off so I haven't had a good look at the toroid yet.
My ambition is to use these to make an off-grid 48V 6kW inverter. If it works as hoped I'll make another for the shed.
I'm currently running on a 24v 10kW solar bank - my own design solar controller into 320 Ah lithium batteries (coming up to 3 years old), 3000W latronics, and just replaced a deceased chinese non transformer inverter with a 24v 8000W powerjack (i'll de-rate to 3000W)
Next year we'll be building a new shed / house on our property and it'll be a 48v 10kW solar, 320Ah Li system , hopefully with 2 x 6kW PJ homebuilt inverters.
Cheers
Andrew
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Welcome to the club.
The inspire and the aerosharp share the same topology, but do it all differently ... both have similar transformer capacity/s.
it is sobering when you pick up an inspire or a aerosharp... they feel the goods alright.
I have not had a 2.5 aerosharp, but I have a few 3kw aerosharps and 1.5's, and I dread shifting the 3kw ones, they are that heavy.
Two of those trannies will give you 6kw easliy..... unfortunately, the aerosharp is a shallower box than the inspire, and so you won't fit the transformers into the aerosharp carcass.
3kw or a bit more is reasonable derating for the 8kw units.... although my first pj had 2 x 5kw pj transformers, and it probably worked ok for 5kw , and 6 or more for shorter periods..... but have never seen the 5kw transformers in any other PJ i have seen ( probably closer to 3kwmax each) just a lucky first one I guess.
If you marry the pj boards to the big transformers, you will have a very useful inverter that will run the place fine.
Have fun with it.
.................oztules
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A late response, but welcome to the LF club Robs! :-)
As a fellow LF5000 owner I'm surprised your unit can't handle a fully loaded 240v socket. Per my own below linked thread, mine faults at 3kw but it still breezes through heavy single socket loads (e.g. kettle, electric lawn mower, and my own washing machine). Plus I've never seen any of the overload alarms just shut the thing off, you usually get about a minutes warning.
So I'd suggest it's likely something behind your inverter... what voltage is your setup, what gauge are your wires, battery set-up, etc? Can you get an DC amperage reading under load?
Also I suggest you do some tests to get to know your inverters various thresholds and alarm/error codes. That way you know what your dealing with.
Failing all else, switch to cold washes! :-P
http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,959.0.html
Hi everyone
Bought this inverter from Power Jack 5000 LF couple of months ago but never got to actually use it until i got the battery bank ready. got that ready, got solar panels to charge my battery but my inverter stops working for some reason. I think is because it overheats, trying to use my washing machine and when the water heater from the washing machine kicks in it gives out 3 short beeps and turns off. The watts on the display goes up to 2500 - 2600 and i thought it supposedly halve a continuous 5000 watts. Any help is appreaciated, hence i can't get in contact with the seller from ebay. Thank you
Yes it's all true.
In a moment of weakness I decided to buy a power jack inverter to play with.... and it looks like this.
(Attachment Link)
It looks like this inside... warranty blown right there......
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Well there it is.
This one is a 24v unit ( my mistake ), but it can do what it says. I can run loads of 6kw or more without problems.... I had the electric stove on, the hot water on and then the water jug..... and it turned off after a minute or so.... can't complain really, the stove was 3200w the hot water some 2500w, and the jug another 2500w... so all up it tried to do over 8000w... I don't now if it was batt under voltage, or power overload... one or the other, because over 8000w is over 300 amps, and I think I had voltage drop in the line... surprise suprise.
The 200 amp meters were way past their stops, and it will never again have to try this, but i could not get it to trip any other way.
So it was impressive to say the least. It also started the 3 phase converter, which is a 3 ph 10hp induction motor running in delta@240v from single phase...... so it can start darn big inductive loads too..
About this time I was becoming rather impressed, as i didn't think it had the ticker for this kind of abuse, so it seemed I needed to take a more serious look at this thing.
I had bought it because it was darn cheap, with free shipping to this island.... and as it weighs over 60lbs or 32kg, it is not so easy to get stuff that heavy sent here... so I bought it as a back up.
I was becoming of the view that this wasn't a toy like the ones I had heard and seen on the web earlier.... so decided to do some more testing.
Well it wasn't all tea and bikkies I'm afraid.
The engineers have not addressed the idle current other than a sleep mode at 25 watts.... but an awake mode of no power draw costs a whopping 8 amps..... yes you read that right .... 8 amps at idle.
Now as a cheap back up this is acceptable.... but as a house driving unit.. it is not good news to burn up over 5kwh a day and do nothing.
So it was time to try a few things we have learnt from the other unit I have ( the power star thing).
It already has two whopping torroids ( worth buying just for them ), so it was not going to be addressed like the power star was.
So I wound this:
(Attachment Link)
This solved the problem.... now idle currents were down in the sub 1 amp range.... in fact now it could be alive all the time, and waste less than 20 watts..... less than their sleep mode...... so 3 and a half turns around a 65mm e core made the thing very very acceptable as a front line unit..... who'd have thought.... a power jack as a front line unit.
Well it's true, it has been running the house... including the electric hot water for the last few weeks. The only thing on grid is the stove.... so usage from the grid was about 1kwh per day, and the house was running at about 11-13 kwh/day.
There was one other thing of interest here.
I have panels running at 300 volts and more intp grid tie inverters into the batteries via the inverter.... ie the grid ties run on the output of the inverter. When the house loads are greater than the grid ties can manage, the inverter takes up the slack, when the grid ties put out more than the house can use, the extra is fed back through the inverters output, and back through the sitching fets and transformers into the batteries.
I have seen in excess of 170 amps being back fed into the batteries via this method. The drawback is you need a big dump load on the batteries, or a cut out system to sequentially turn off the grid ties to keep the batteries from over charge.
If this is allowed to go, then the power jack will turn off when the batteries exceed 32v... which is the final safety in all of this.....THIS DOES NOT INVOLVE THE GRID for those folks wondering..... this is strictly off grid antics.
It is interesting to note, that without the e core filter in series with the primaries of the transformers, it would not grid tie to the grid inverters... but rather, blow all the overloaders in the ac line to the inverters.
With the filter in place, it was perfectly happy to be the grid, and sync the grid ties to it's output, and reverse flow the power to the batteries.... but not without the carrier filter.
So the big filter did two things, made the inverter a classy unit, and allowed it to back feed grid tie inverter inputs into it's outputs.
To say that I am impressed is an understatement. It appears bullet proof, and the spare parts ARE available.
Thats the clincher for me, in fact after I chased them up, they have even put the spares on ebay... about 170 dollars for the entire innards of the machine... ie power board, and control board, battery selector board, and driver board for the display..... just add transformers and a box, and you have built your own..
Before you rush out and do just that...... it is heaps cheaper to just buy theirs, as the cost of those torroids over here are over 1500 dollars alone, cheaper in the UK, don't know about USA. The transformers are over 25 lbs each....
One problem I had was the 24v part... I was set up for 48v..... so I had to do something about it.
I rearranged the battery pack to reflect the new setup... now it was 1500AH @ 24v
Re wired the solar panels for 24v ( left 4kw as 350v for the real grid ties ), and that gave me about 130amps of 35v solar power.
Now I needed a controller.
I sat down and scribbled a circuit of sorts out, and fleshed it out as I designed the board.. and finished up with this
(Attachment Link)
It is about 10am, and already it is up at 80 amps
(Attachment Link)
I have seen it at 120 amps. The heat sink ( and no those burn marks are form when this heat sink belonged to someone elses 2500w HF pure sine inverter) stays at less than just over skin temp even at high currents. The wave form is very clean, but swithcing at only about 4khz... makes the "layout" simple.
Here is the current going to the batteries after the power jack has used a few up from the incoming 80 odd amps
(Attachment Link)
May do an article on that if folks really want to try it.
Here is the wave form of the makeshift "solar controller" ( not the power jack.... that is pure sine) when it is running at only 40 or so amps after the bulk of the charging is done ( mid morning )
(Attachment Link)
All in all...... I love my power jack..... did not expect to ever say that in a million years.
................oztules
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Sorry, this may be a dumb question, but how hard is it to convert a 10000W 24V inverter into a 10000W 48V inverter?
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Sorry, this may be a dumb question, but how hard is it to convert a 10000W 24V inverter into a 10000W 48V inverter?
Probably not as hard as threading a length of cooked spaghetti up a wildcats arse but pretty close.
Especially if you have to ask how. :o
Just saying..
Tom
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err yep... what Tom said.
In fact it is very simple if you have the parts available, or are prepared to do a bit of rewinding.
1. The transformers need to be stripped, the stacks glued together, and rewound as a single transformer.... you should have three... or at least two.. never know with these folks.... three would be nice. Use 1/3 the turns for the 240v/110v winding as in original, and twice the turns on a single original transformer ( 24v turns) for the 48v winding... thats step 1... simple but time consuming.... if you only got two transformers, then 1/2 turns for the HV winding, and the same total turns for the 24v winding with both cores .
Eg. 240v unit... if you had 5 turns: 240 turns on a single original, and we have three, they will be series primary, and parallel secondary... so it will look like 15 turns of primary to 240 turns of secondary. When we stack three, we divide the turns by 3... so 5 turns to 80 turns for 24v but we want 48v so multiply the primary by two, and we see 10 turns to 80 turns on the three stack transformer for the 48v version..... the HV winding needs to be wound with three in hand for the same power handling as the original three ( more power actually, as we have effectively gotten rid of a lot of copper, almost 1 entire transformer worth) in short, you want to end up with about an 8:1 ratio for 48v 240v transformer.
Plan B if you don't want to unwind the long HV windings... and rewind three in hand, is to just stack the three transformers together after removing the big LV windings... strap them together as a single cylinder, and get as big a welding or battery cable as you can fit in there to wind twice the turns of a single Lv winding off the original. This will give you a better transformer than the originals, but not as good the first conversion. The top conversion will yield a significantly better transformer than the originals.
2. Your main fet board..... depends on what fets they used. If they used IRFB4110, then no change, if they used fets with less than 75v S/Drain then you need to frreplace them with 24 IRFB4110... probably $24.
3. The control card... either buy a new 48v one off ebay seller ( get the 15kw 48v 110 or 240v one) and install... now your finished.
OR you will have to track down the voltage sensing for the main chip, and shunt that, so that it sees half the voltage it would currently see.... and possibly change the capacitor next to the power supply with a 100v rather than a 50v one.. although I think they are all 100v now.... they used to use 50v in some of the 48v ones.. and they explode quite well...
So it is easy of you say it quickly.... or maybe the wild cat is a better option if you don't like playing with transformers.
...............oztules
Edit: It is easy to say get 24 x 4110's, but in practice it is more difficult to do this for a reasonable outlay.
If you buy off ebay or aliexpress , it is normal to be fleeced.. ie I bought 300 4110's hoping they wouldn't be, but knowing they probably would be fakes.... but if you test the Rds on of each of them, you normally end up with a selection of pretty good fets for very little money... at least 200 of those tested less than .007ohms, which for 100v fets is pretty good... not as good as the advertised .0037R, but good none the less.....
So Test them and keep the like with the like, and use the lowest rds on the low side switchers, and the higher rds on for the high side switches..... some of the ones I got were terrible at .024R... effectively a BUK455 60A... but at 100v... so even though they were "lousy" they are better than my stock BUK's.. so it is not all sour grapes.
It looks like they are the rejects from the batches, and some cunning devil sells them for next to nothing ... and they are fakes.... but mostly good enough for most projects. The voltage seems to be reliable, so it looks like the insulated gates are not quite right, (thickness and surface area) and this effects both the capacitance and the Rdson.... but the die types seems to keep the voltage ok........ or maybe they know most won't notice running slightly warmer, but would notice right away if they blew up on switch on.
Interestingly, the lower Rdson ones have lower gate capacitance, so turn on easier.... and this may actually help the heating stakes more than the rds on being wrong... I don't know, it will depend on the current in your driver.
Use a constant current source, and drive the gate at at least 11v, and measure the millivolt drop across the d-s pins right at the case... do the math, and establish the new rds on... then mark it on the case!... don't just create piles of the same sizes... they will get messed up somehow, and you have to do it all again... wonder how I know....
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Sorry, this may be a dumb question, but how hard is it to convert a 10000W 24V inverter into a 10000W 48V inverter?
Probably not as hard as threading a length of cooked spaghetti up a wildcats arse but pretty close.
Especially if you have to ask how. :o
Just saying..
Tom
haha... That does not sound easy... I think I will stick with 24V
I may give it a go some day when I have some time.
Thanks
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Oz,
With all your modifications to these PowerJack inverters, Shouldn't they be called PowerHack? ;D
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Not sure what to call them now.... but they are by far the best thing for a hobbyist to buy....you can fiddle without worrying about how much it will cost to fix it up if you drop the screwdriver into the wrong place... and beat the best of them if you mod them them a bit... and at least you can.
.............oztules
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Thanks Oztules
I've been reading and re-reading the relevant forum threads. Feeling light headed now :)
Just for reference, the AeroSharp 2k5 Transformer weighs 15kg as it comes out of the box. approx. 215mm x 80mm over the windings.
At this stage I'm planning to buy the PJ 15000 main + control brd kit as you have suggested.
Can i check the Toroid recipe so far (48v - 2 cores ):
- Strip entirely all windings off the 2 cores.
- lay the secondary 114 turns , 2 in hand or 2 layers parallel'd using 2mm dia wire.
- lay the primary of 15 turns of approx 75mm^2
- epoxy everything as you go, first the cores, each layer of secondary, do you bother gluing the secondary?
- test by feeding 240vac into the Sec. (charging via a lamp - switching it out) and looking for approx 30v on the primary
Cheers
Andrew
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Andrew,
Yes to all.
Strip the torroids. You will need those plastic left over spools from plumbers tape or similar to take the mylar plastic wrap off easily and in one length.. you will need a few of these, or take one off and then wind it onto another former and continue. This is important, as you will need to reuse this later, and it will keep it under control.
Also use a stick to wind the wire onto about 800mm long. If you use iron 6mmX38mm like I did, plastic wrap it first with tape so as not to allow steel onto enamel when you unwind. Once unwound, stretch it out and use a straightener device ( mine is three bearings on a board that I wind them through and pull.) and straighten it out properly. Straight wire is important to get a neat and more importantly a compact winding.... rewind onto a former for reuse.
I find a solder reel can hold enough of the 2mm wire to get the 114 turn on. The solder reel will allow you to wind tight neat windings.
Wind the second secondary next, it should end up pretty neat, as there are not a lot of windings there for such a big core.
Once thats done, epoxy it. This will stop any wire vibration which is the achilles heel of torroids. It will also make your inverter silent or so close it's not funny.. even at high power.
Then the mylar tape over that..... ... and we assume you left the original on the core in place. For reference it has glass matting around the perimeters, and then the mylar wrapped over that.
If you cant fit all the wire for a single winding on your solder spool, it is not a crime to have a few joins along the way, just make sure they are twisted and soldered and insulated.... there is tons of room for this if necessary.
Then it is time for the welding cable or whatever you choose, and so your 14 or 15 turns. Find wire with thin sheath, so you stand a good chance of single layer of wrap. Use clamps if necessary to keep it tight as you wind and get the bends tight too. Don't epoxy the 75mmsq cable... not necessary in any way. It is both silent because of the sheath, and vibration is not a problem for the same reason.
Yes, the test will have to have a soft start device, and a 100w globe will do fine...otherwise it will blow any sized over loader you may have in the house. Inrush current is monstrous with this transformer, a 30 amp over loader will not handle it at all if it starts at or anywhere near zero crossing..... once running it will have very low current though ( short the globe out, which will be virtually off anyway by then).
With a 15kw mainboard, and a 15kw card, you will be hard pressed to find anyone who can out drive you with this setup. Mine will start a 10hp three phase motor lightly loaded.... using 1000uf on the spare phase for starting, and 200uf for running without any pause... same as if I start it on the grid power. ( I use it for my rotary inverter... single to three phase 240v).
Your best to make your own arrangements for the fan, but you may need a small fan with three leads on it plugged into the fan socket to make the computer happy.... it won't ever come on in my experience in this configuration, but it needs to see it.
I use twin 120mm fans on the fet board, one in front, one in back.. they rarely come on, but if you want to run 3-5kw for any period, they will , and still keep it at 38c-45c
( thats using a comparator, a fet and a thermistor attached to the low side drive heat sink.
I will do a full article from start to finish soon, as I have to build one for a remote island.. with one person on it....
......oztules
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WOW - thanks Oztules. Fantastic instructions.
Like many, my experience to transformers only extends to what I learnt at Uni, some 30 years ago.
So NIL actual transformer winding experience.
but eager to give it a go :)
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some pics that may help
1: my unwinding stick.. about 30 inches of 6mmx38mm with grey tape all the way up and more black tape at the ends. You don't want to scratch the enamel unnecessarily... you won't believe how tired your shoulder will be by the time you have unwound all the wire.... maybe over 4kg of wire... I haven't measured it myself....
[attachimg=1]
2. Then you need something like this to straighten it out... twice over with this seems to do it.
The wire on the former is from winding a secondary ( nothing to do with straightening the wire... just easy to use to show wire through the bearings.)
... note it has been trimmed around the perimeter to get it through the hole as it got smaller
[attachimg=2]
3. Then wind it up
[attachimg=3]
4. tape goes on here... like these.
[attachimg=4]
.....oztules
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thanks for the photos. I was going to ask for a photo of, especially the roller contraption. :)
BTW - if someone has a blown PJ FET board they don't want - (or any other PJ parts) I'll make arrangements to get it to Brisbane.
If anything pans out it'll benefit all.
Andrew
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Your welcome.....
We forgot one step...... glue the cores together.. I used a layer of glass and epoxy for that The gap seems not to make any difference, but will stop a whole lot of noise.
Note:..... try to play with the copper as little as possible other than what you must do... it work hardens, and 2mm copper work hardened is pretty strong, no where near as malleable as it was when they wound it with a machine... bummer really... but you gotta do what you gotta do too....
ie
First we unwind it off the torroid... still soft.
Then we unwind it from the stick.... still pretty soft...
Then we straighten it with the bearings, this hardens it a bit.... then we do it again ... harder still...
Then we roll it up on a former.... harder again.....
Then we roll it up on a solder roll or equiv.... getting pretty springy by now...
Then we roll it onto the torroid.... now you can see what I mean. The copper you pull off is not going to behave the same as the copper you roll back on the torroid... nothing we can do to alter this, but just be aware, and as it gets harder... thats why.
Also, count the turns as you take off the 240v winding.... no-one has used the 2.5 aerosharp, so it may be different to the inspire ones at 1.14/turn.
So you may need more or less than 114 turns... you will need half of whatever you take off.
There is also a chance they do not use 2mm wire, and use 2 in hand 1.6 or similar... this is a mixed fortune, as you will have to wind more secondaries to get the same power ratings.... maybe 3 layers of 1.6 instead of 2 layers of 2mm for between 6 and 7mm^2... but the layers will be easier to wind, but one more of them.... not sure if that better or worse.
......oztules
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I think I just fried my 8000 split phase power jack... I was testing it to see if it would run some appliances. I had a 1500 watt dual stove top burner on, and turned on a 1000 watt microwave. It seemed to work for about 20 seconds, then it just shut off. There was also a smell of smoke. I shut it off and turned it back on, but it did not produce any power. I have not taken it apart yet, but shouldn't they have some safety to prevent them from burning up it you load them too much? I thought for sure it would run the two things, but I guess not... Or was this just a faulty unit?
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Its a dud. The 8000 will run those loads standing on it's head.
If it was running above 4-5kw and. more, it would beep for 12 seconds or thereabouts, and shut down from over load.
These things are o/load protected.... and even when they squark... you can bypass some of the current around the CT, and push them very hard and they still don't break..
Suspect faulty wiring in the power circuits... ie loose high current connections would be my first guess.. warranty if so.
They really are bullet proof if they are assembled properly.... yours was not from the sounds of it.
.........oztules
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Thanks. That is what I thought it should do. Sounds like the first thing to do with these inverters are to take them apart and make sure there is nothing loose...?
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the AeroSharp 2k5 transformer. The labels shows manufacturer info.
2kVA, PRI : 230V SEC: 250V 8.7A
How does this compare to the other transformers.
Thanks Oztules, I wouldn't have counted the turns. Will now [attachimg=1]
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Frackers
How much did you pay for the 48V 15kw boards?
(looks like the price is escalating)
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How much did you pay for the 48V 15kw boards?
(looks like the price is escalating)
The price often looks good until you select the actual model you want and then you get a bit of a surprise! I've PM'ed the details.
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I did some more testing with my inverter today. I found that turning it on would not produce a voltage above 4 VAC, after a few seconds it would sound an alarm.
So I decided to take it apart to see what went wrong. At first I could not see anything until I looked here:
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/davidwillis_2006/IMG_0015.jpg)
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/davidwillis_2006/IMG_0023.jpg)
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Thats an amazing 8kw unit... it has the big power board in it, plenty of cooling... it really should have been a pretty good unit... much better parts than I have seen before in the 8kw units... that should have been a ripper unit really. Bigger fet board, looks like their bigger tranny's, and dual cooling fans for them too.
I'm amazed it failed under such small loads.
............oztules
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Yes, it is strange. Any ideas on why those chips would break apart like that? This has me a little worried.... Do you still think there was something wrong with this unit, or are there any other ideas why this would happen?
I had run other larger loads weeks earlier (a harbor freight 220v wire feed welder), and a few other things... do you think that could have damaged it? Also I tried using the charger on it, but it simply would not work, and would end up giving me an alarm and shutting off, when I tried it (this was well before the burn down).
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No. That configuration should be bullet proof. Are you sure this is only a 8kw unit.. the guts look more like 10kw..
Anyway, that fet destruction is normal for when you have a signal failure or fet failure. They are caught between the battery potential when they short... either they blow your battery fuse ( will happen if a few short together at the same time) or they will simply explode to get rid of the short.. fets always fail short, as you know what happens with a screwdriver across the batt terminals... well thats what the fets try to do too.
When one fails first, and explodes, then the next and the next follow in a cascade of pops, until there is no fet trying to short the battery any more. If they short together, then they have enough "fet legs" to present a massive low impedance, and then it may short your fuse if you have one.
Something was wrong with it. It should have saved itself from over load.... and the loads you describe would be trifling for it.
I have no idea of what split phase would do to the current ratings or how it works with the CT... we don't have that here... thats the only complication I can't guess at.
Usually it is something like loose battery cables, terminals even... then any other thing you have in the battery line that could cause sparking and inductive problems.... check the ribbon that connects the two boards together for broken wires, unplugged, and the opto isolators are plugged in properly
So no, I don't know how or why it failed.... as I don't know how the current transformer sees the loads at 110v and 220v..... totally unknown at the moment.
The charger needs the frequency and voltage to be in range.. if you know it was in the right range ( grid perhaps), and it still would not sync, there was something wrong with the mother board.
..oztules
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It may be a 10kw, but I ordered an 8kw, and it is not as big as the 10kw I have.... It sure seems like a luck of the draw as to what you really get...
Anyway, the only other thing I noticed inside was a small burn mark on the ground wire (you can see it in the second picture of my post). Other than that nothing seems loose, and my batteries were connected well.
I know it sure would make a large spark when I would hook up the batteries, do you think it could have damaged them when I connected the power?
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No it is just the massive caps charging up very very quickly....they make an impressive splat don't they...
......oztules
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Transformer strip down AeroSharp 2k5
Pri 230V : Sec 250V
The secondary is 2 windings of 1.8mm dia in parallel.
There are 2 joins in each layer so I have 6 rolls of wire tha I pulled off. The 2 windings are joined together at each join.
I had some problems sometimes with windings being caught under other windings so I may have goofed with the turn count, as their seems to be some variance between some of the counts.
Layer A count is 239
Layer B count is 244
Its all good fun - until the shoulders start getting sore :D
Andrew
[attachimg=1]
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Don't be shy with the pics..... ( the saddist in me likes to see others suffer like me...). The shoulders and back have new muscles in there,,, or old ones rejigged.... after this last Tranny. It is wound now, just the 14 turns of the primary to go.... easy when you say it quickly..hard if you try to do it neatly..... we'll see with mine.
It looks like you have a turn per volt or so close to it, so the inspire torroid is a bit bigger. The one I just wound seems to be 245v for 114 turns on a double core. Mine is now three layers of 1.6mm so (.8x.8x3.1417)x3 or 6mmsq.... if you use 2 x 1.8mm will be 5mmsq should be good for 5-6kw normal usage, as it will be well exposed for cooling.
I use a rule of thumb.... where the primary:secondary cross section area should be the same as the winding ratio.... so mine will be 8:1 turns ratio, so my primary should be around 8 times the 6mm or 50mmsq is close enough.... if we think the 50mmsq can handle 200a then the secondary 6mmsq will handle an honest 25 amps ... 6000watts.
Extension leads are 1.6mmsq for 15A 30 and 50 meters long.... on that metric, the 50mmsq can stand 50/1.6X16=500 amps for the same losses.... but only 10 meters of cable used. ( actually the 30 meter extension is really 60 meters for these purposes, as it is a 2 way trip for the heating.)... does that sound right??
I'd take your highest figure of 244, and calculate on 1v/turn for your core. guessing your core is about 3000mmsq cross section.
...........oztules
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Found some old toroids at a local scrap yard - sail cloth and shellac variety - but might be usable after a total rewind.
The label has the following details on it:
SECURR
CURRENT
TRANSFORMER
NZSS 2141
Type D06
Ratio 200/100/5
15 VA Class S10
50Hz No. 18781
I've only been able to measure with the windings still on.
150mm diameter
155mm high
14kg
1.5mm wire
0.14ohms resistance, centre tapped
Looking up tables based on 0.17 x 10-8 ohm.m it would appear there is about 15m of wire on them which will approximate to 40 turns.
Another table puts 1.5mm wire at 9.76ohm/1000m which would indicate about 70m which equates to 175 turns which is close to the 200 on the label!!
The centre tap allows access to the two separate windings.
Not sure if they will strip cleanly but I'll try and get an idea of how many turns there really is.
I'm tempted to put a few turns through of whatever I can find, put the existing winding via a 100w 'current limiter' bulb onto 240v and see what I get out. Would be pretty amazing if I could just put a few turns of primary on as there is a 45 gallon drum of these things available ;)
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"Another table puts 1.5mm wire at 9.76ohm/1000m"... for .14R thats closer to 14m.. ie .14/9.76X1000= 14.3m... close to 15m in the first table.
picture?
Trying to imagine them... cloth and shellac....seems a huge core to have for 15va... or is that kva....
If they are torroid standard steel, then for every 3000mmsq, we will be near 1 turn per volt at 50hz possibly...maybe etc etc.
So you may have to stack a few to get the volts per turn up fairly high... just to get the big wire down the middle... and only a few turns. as there is so many, they will do the job for sure. Need to strip one and see the cross sectional area. However, the more steel, the more magnetic domains that need to be realigned every cycle, so our idle current will start to rise as we add more steel to get the turns down.... it's always something isn't it.
And I'm not hugely jealous either!.... much..... I'd buy the lot if the hole is a reasonably useful size.... coz I'm greedy that way.
......oztules
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Some more numbers now I have hacked at this first sacrificial core..
40 turns (I guess the 200/5 on the name plate would indicate that) as indicated by the resistance
inside (hole) 62.5mm
outside (up against the steel) 146mm
height 135mm - but its a stack of 6 cores, imperial ones no less as they are
1", 1", 1", 1/2", 3/4", 1"
So a bit small really so guess I'll have to check out some more oil drums.
Gets calculator out - cross section is (146 - 62.5) / 2 x 135 = 5636sqmm
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Yes, the volts are great around 1.7v/turn, a three stack would be 5.1volts/turn... and only 5 turns for the secondary, and 50 or so for the primary.... but gee, small hole to get it done.
Certainly doable, if there is better then good else, they should be fine .... you only have to do it once and it lasts forever... what I keep telling myself when half way through it.
.. good find for all sorts of trannies you can make out of that.... but the lack of wire and mylar means you have to source that stuff elsewhere.
...............oztules
Edit: If I had a drum of those I would build torroid winding machine.....
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Assuming I can get the mylar tape and the wire, I'm working on using 7 of the 1" sections from 2 of these beasts. That gives me (146-62.5)/2*7*25.4 = 7423.15sqmm cross section which is very close to the 2 cores you are using. The only issue will be the smaller hole so the 50sqmm primary might be out and a hunt round the welding shops begun.
Based on the cross section, presumably I could go to the same 114/14 ratio you are using.
No sure where the numbers come from as based on 3000sqmm for a turn/volt then for 240volts & the 7262.4 sqmm on your twin core, that comes in at 99 turns or is there some fudge factor involved? (I though there might be a sqrt2 using peak not RMS volts but that gives 140 turns!!).
Also trying to make sense of the 48volts in to 240 out turns ratio - I guess there is a rms/peak ratio there so that the primary is:
((48 - volts drop)/sqrt2)*(secondary/240)
assuming 4 volts lost in wiring and MOSFETs and the 114 turns on your secondary, that gives 14.77 turns.
Am I on the right track?
Cheers
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No.... if we lost 4 volts@120 amps, we would light up Auckland :)
There is no exact science here... just back of the cornflake packet stuff.
Firstly, we need to recognize that the voltage will not be 48v... but anywhere from 46-60v... so the range is quite large. We need to wind for the worst situation where we are low on volts, and are running hard... so we under wind from where you thought, and it seems that around 8:1 for a 48v system is about right to cater for all the losses and make sure we are not going to drive the current to high trying to get 240v rms out from 46v at full load.... the 240v is actually 320v peak as you suggest, so the rms primary is the batt voltage, and the peaks we need at full power of the cycle is 320, so as you say 320/46 is nearer to 7:1... now some head space... and we get to 8:1... and for 24v we get 16:1 etc etc..... yep... gosh I'm scientific about this.... :o
The cores i have are around 3600sqmm from memory for around 1.14v/turn... so 3000 will be near to 1v ( bit less perhaps, but easy to remember)... it is all rule of thumb stuff The figure is higher for EI units.... but as a very rough start line, it should be close enough. You won't find any definitive area/turns figures for the most part, as it is all a bit rubbery, and relies on knowing the steels parameters... which we don't.... but this chinese stuff is in that ball park. Your stuff may be better still, as it is likely old, and likely from a power station or similar govt enterprise in the day.
So to get that information, you can wind a core with x turns... say 12, and hit it with 12vac 50hz, and see if the current is very low... then increase V until you see a knee in the graph, and backwards again. You should find a point where current increases faster than the voltage increase, and this will be near the saturation area, where the inductance is not able to get enough reactance to cancel the EMF easily. At saturation the core behaves like air.....near 3 orders of magnitude worse than the steel... We want the back emf to cancel the forward voltage without using more current than we need.
Remember, with out the reactance due to the inductance and frequency.. the 12 turns will just be a near zero ohm resistor.... and burn up.... as would an air core at this frequency. does that make sense? It is only that the core increases the inductance, that enough reactance will be achieved at 50hz to limit the current..... thats why impedance is measured in ohms. It impedes the flow as a resistor would, except the resistance to flow is dynamic in nature... it changes with the frequency... resistors generally don't ( high frequency mixed with wire wounds do though).
So yes, I'm guessing that at if you can get the 7400mmsq, the 114:14 will work fine, probably better than mine as you will have a few more sqmm... it may be worth a turn or two extra without the turn... lower iron loss perhaps... sheer guess work, but I think we are very close to the truth.... only experiment will tell... I expect it will work fine ;)
To get the thick primary in there... 14 turns will be difficult, maybe more iron, and less turns will allow you get to a stage where the turns are possible with the smaller hole you have.... note my photo. 14 turns of wire took up the whole hole with a single layer.... more would have made it messy, and hard to get a bolt through to hold the thing down. I reckon 20 would have been very very difficult for even this one.... 57 :7 would be easier to wind the primary... a dog for the secondary, and increase the iron loss..... which way to go????
Edit.... the other thing with stacking... the further we get away from a square cross section, the more wire we use for the same result.... ie a square has the shortest perimeter of all the quadrangle shapes for the maximum cross section. As we elongate, we enclose less area for the same perimeter length.... ie longer perimeter to enclose the same area....... just something else to confuse the issue. They do make circular cross section torroids for this reason, but unless your spending someone else's money, you won't afford them.
...................oztules
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Hi All! Great posts on all the transformer winding! I hope i get the energy
To try it sometime!
I want to update info i wrote in post 186 page 13 regarding powerjack.
AC output volt increase. I had stated that cutting trace between R262and R259 and placing
A 470k resistor across the 2 points would result in 5v output increase.
Good news is it does raise v but the bad news is that it makes voltage regulation unstable.
I cant really explain definites but i have seen voltage drift from 118 to 113 without a reason implyingbattery voltage didnt change and load current didnt change during vout drift.There does seem to be less tight voltage regulation with load changes and with batt voltage change as well.
All in all, if you need to change output voltage of PJ inverter, there might be a better way.
Regards, Lighthunter
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Davidwillis.
Yes, it can do damage if you interrupt the power to the inverter,,, if there is any sign of reconnection... ie a clean break may be well survivable, but if you break and make and break.. then there is a good chance the computer will send new timing information to the fets, and hard start the transformers... and that may well be terminal... depending on what part of the curve it gets hit again.
I did this with a mock up for the new transformer... blew the fets, and had to do a quick repair job on it.... poor test connection........
Interesting Lighthunter.
..............oztules
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Since i scratched the voltage increase idea described in post 186 i had to do something to fool the control board into increasing voltage. Heres what i did. Took a small 10watt transformer from a music box with a 120v to 5v winding set and configured to a buck circuit. Then removed wires connected to maintxN and connected those wires on a new stud with the black wires going to outlets. Ran the new voltage out from buck ckt to the stud marked maintxN. Essentially bypassed the N transformer lead from touching board. Now control board sees 106v instead of 111v and increases output to get 111. this resulted in outlet voltage regulated at 116vAC. When grid tie is generating this voltage can get as high as 123 but doesnt move much below 114.
That solved, the grid tie is still shutting off once in a while for no apparent reason. Voltages are all in good shape. Max min line to neutral is 107-130 phase-phase max min is 177-266. Im running at 118 phase to neutral and 239 phase to phase. Oztules do you think it could be frequency that is causing problem??? The grid tie max and min are 60.4hz and 59.4. both PJ boards read exactly 60.26hz steady with no grid tie on line. Once grid tie is running my freq meter flashes around a bit on the 3rd and 4th digit. 60.28 and 60.30 60.31 are displayed quite a bit. Nothing higher though but thats awefully close to the 60.4hz max and the time limit to fault is like 1/3 of a second. Noise on line might be able to cause a fault. I dont know. Do you happen to know how close yours run to limit? Anyway, just thoughts. Maybe i need to go a diff direction with this, ive wasted too much time already. Thanks! Lighthunter
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Interesting fix I must say.......
The grid tie units I use are galvanically isolated, and are .5hz +- from 50hz.
I would expect yours would have an error message... is it freq or grid voltage error... it could be from voltage transients on start up of big loads... My frequency sits on 50hz... rock solid, and never shakes the grid tie off from freq.... normally always always voltage related ( on purpose most of the time ).
The old operator assisted error has resulted in blowing up two boards today..... fat fingers and poor control of the screw driver seem to cause me problems from time to time.
So, I'm in the middle of selecting fets from the heap I have that are NOT up to spec.... , and rebuilding the burn bits of the control board.
I have decided to put in a crowbar across the battery driven by the gate voltage.... so if the gate voltage rises above say 18v, we know a burn out is on the way... and clamp the voltage and blow the main fuse ( 100 amps + 40000uf@60v ).... very big scr's out of an old hydro tasmania charger... absolutely huge... I suspect a few thousand amps of surge is manageable for these puppies... we'll see.... and this time it will be operator assisted suicide..... eagerly anticipating a light show maybe....
I am also interested in comments of an RC network in series with the low side gates.... maybe .1uf and 2k7 as a buffer to stop the 60v getting back into the totems.. would be nice to blow the thing up, but not the control card for a change.... really should not keep experimenting I guess.. or be more careful........ nah more fun this way.
Any thoughts Ross? and others? on the degrading of the signal.... .1 is a heap bigger then the combined gate capacitance...of maybe .006uf or more.
..............oztules
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Any thoughts Ross? and others? on the degrading of the signal.... .1 is a heap bigger then the combined gate capacitance...of maybe .006uf or more.
Well, it sounds pretty savage to me... 2K7 and 0.1uF has a timeconstant of 0.27ms.
I wonder how much extra heat the FETs will dissipate with all the extra time in the conducting-but-not-hard-on region.
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At first blush, I though that too..... but the impedance of the load and driver might come into it.
The load is several orders of magnitude higher impedance than the impedance of the "rc" network.
As the RC is driving a high impedance load ( insulated gate), we need only over come the .006 capacitance of the gates... ie charge it up.... so far so good perhaps... but the 20k gate/source resistors may bring this undone... so we need to maintain the voltage during the cycle, so need a resistor to do this...
I am thinking/hoping, it will behave like a piece of wire, and the 2k7 will hold the gate on after the turn on..... and if we burst..... the 60 volts won't be able to get back into the totems with any voracity and, maybe a 15v zenner on the driver too.
Then, the other half of me thinks, I'm just degrading the wave form..... guess I'll have to test and see what happens.... you think this too.... bad omen :-\
Any simple ideas to stop the shorted gates driving 60v back into the low side drivers ( don't care about the high side )
Edit except my argument don't stand up.... the 2k7 is the load too..... bummer... that what you get for thinking...
Edit2 no... I will have to try this out and see the wave forms.....
..............oztules
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Regardng low side driver protection. Not sure there is room but why couldnt you use.
Electrolytic caps in series with gate connection. you just have to choose a value large enough so you stay below one time constant of the capacitor effective- R x C value at the frequency they are switching. Come to think of it a few mfd should do it, may not need electrolytic.
Thats how designers always used to block dc current flow in audio final stage circuits (dc is kinda hard on spkr coils) , nowadays they have mastered the thermal runaway and biasing problems so they dc couple amps to speakers for the sake of those few who claim hearing abilities below 20hz and above 5khz. Maybe there is a slight gain in accuracy with dc coupling but in any case it would block the 60v when cap charged up the bad thing is you need a pulldown resistor on fet gate side ...should b one anyway.
Maybe thats what you meant by rc circuit you mentioned, i dont see why it wouldnt work as long as cap is large enuf.
Regarding error msg on grid tie? Yeah that would be nice. The only manual i found states that the installer who has proprietary software is able to choose what is and is not displayed on the front panel lcd. All it tells me when it quits is a PJ that starts whining loudly as it just got left to pull the load by itself and the watt meter on grid tie sometimes shows a ramped down value like 400w and AC LED goes off, you hear a click and then display reads, "Inverter offline"d
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20 to >5kHz hearing range as a claim? O.o
Mine is degrading with age but I am almost 41 and guarantee I can still hear at least to 16kHz...
But that's not why I'm replying :P
Beefed up totem poles and a really low value fuse between the output and the gates? Say, 1/4A? Average current shouldn't be a problem with the fuse and the beefier transistors could take the heat while the fuse is on its way out during an "event"...?
Just a thought, May still be problems upstream I suppose but worth a look possibly.
Steve
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Steve,
I'm pondering a few things in this area, and that is one I have actioned to some extent ( ordered the micro fuses).
This should stop the burning under the totems I would hope.... may even save them... but 50 cents worth of transistors is not a problem.
I had heard of the cap/resistor thing from a fellow in South Australia.... but have not heard from him since... but I will give it a whirl... but I tend towards Ross's assessment.... the other bloke is an EE so I have to think he knows something i dont ( I'm a hack).
I have some massive scr to crowbar the thing as well, and will give that a go too.
Sadly this needs to be done.... although, they only blow up when I mess with them, never had a problem when I leave well enough alone... but you don't learn or improve like that I suppose..... poking things in the wrong places by mistake/slip off the wire under test seems to account for the majority of problem stuff ups... that and the battery charging change back..... was it just a oncer or does it do it most of the time..... takes a few bangs to get the idea that it is a problem... not an aberration.
I don't know why I enjoy this stuff.
.........oztules
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Oz, I'm wondering - when you said "RC", I was thinking you were doing the "conventional" thing that implies - a resistor in series and a cap to ground.
In the light of other comments, I'm wondering if you actually meant a "capacitively-coupled" drive, with a cap in series and the resistor to ground (on the FET gate side).
If this is the case, then it might work. The cap won't slow down the edges, but it won't drive the fet gate for long, so the capacitance will need to be high enough to charge and then to hold against the 2k7 to ground.
Caps in series will act like a divider - if the gate is say, 1nf and your ac coupling is 100nf, you're going to get (100/101) of the input to the gate (near enough).
BUT.... if/when the fet blows and pulls the gate to +60V, the cap is going to let that through to the driver - albeit briefly. Will it have enough energy to kill the driver? Perhaps not. It may indeed be worth trying.
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Correct, it is a capacitive drive with the 2k7 in parallel with the capacitor... to hold the voltage high, but high enough in resistance to not let the 60v do too much damage upstream...... so the big cap to turn it on, the resistor to hold it on. There is 20k to ground at the fet gate-source.
The 60v surge is immaterial to me, although the transistors could take it, as they are 2amps and over 60v... but it is only the boards actual integrity i worry about... but yes probably survive. A zenner on the driver side as a shunt will stop it anyway.
There is a 339 further upstream, but it has never failed even when the transistors have toasted and exploded.
Yes worth a try.
.....oztules
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Without having really seen the FET board.
Lower the R gate-drive to 10R 1/8th watt (sacrificial) mounted high to make it easier to replace, and use a tranzorb.
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if mode of failure is over current; monitor current by what ever means (hall effect sensor, shunt) and kill the drive at the LM339 output. (preferably locked requiring reset)
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Thanks Andy, the transorb is installed on a test unit... we'll see how much blows up .
Over current will be terribly difficult, as this thing can supposedly pull 60kw surges... and still be fine.
But a false switch or something else it does not like will send it to hell. Usually it is me doing something wrong without thinking. All easy to fix except the board charcoal makes some of them useless really.
So 2 x 16v transorbs are now on the fet board. Just tested, there is no interference at low power.... now we will see if big loads spike enough to cause havoc. I have left the 49r resistors there at this time. Will lift them up later.
In short,........ I like the idea.
The cap resistor thing, did not make much difference to the wave form, but it attenuated it too much to bother trying to go on with it. This is less invasive to the normal operation of the system I think.
..............oztules
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Well it seems to work.
I built a fet board up with cheap chinese fets that were no where near spec, and decided we could afford to kill them off........ so i did.
It was impressive with 12 fets blown apart very quickly....... this time there was no sign of stress in the totem pole transistors.... one died quietly, but no cooking or anythinjg else.
I suspect it copped a few millisecs of pain and then died, but did not cause any catastrophic damage....
Rebuilt the board again, and replaced the single transistor on the totem pole.... it was on the side of the fets on both high and low that blew. The high side drivers did not suffer any problems..
So a quick rebuild, replace all the resistors and fets on those two banks...... and then.... pushed it back into service as a transformer and card set on the bench and nothing else. Ran it for 20 minutes at 2kw... and even with poor fets, the heat sinks did not get above skin temp... so it must be running alright, and the wave form must be fairly decent.
Also found out that 2 liters of water in a 2kw jug heats up 45 degrees in about 4 mins.... must do the math and see if thats close .... or the amp meter I used was out.
The unit was doing 225v@8.5A... so was probably a 2400w element running slightly low voltage. Board is a 230v board, and the regulation is fair, and can be improved upon I think. Unloaded was 228v.. so sagged 3v@2kw..... not too bad I guess.
Tomorrow we over load the system big time to see how the lousy fets hold up under 6-8kw... have no idea what they really are.. the print is IRFB4110... but they test out very much worse than that.... instead of 3.5-4.7mohm... they are 7-15mohm... every one is different.
Hopefully it will blow up, but leave the totems unburnt in any way like todays test..... then I will get some confidence that this may be a way to protect the fibreglass
Yes Tom..... were just animals here.... :)
Oh, and 1 transorb 16v shorted so that other bits did not incinerate.
..............oztules
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Also found out that 2 liters of water in a 2kw jug heats up 45 degrees in about 4 mins.... must do the math and see if thats close .... or the amp meter I used was out.
06:30:32-7/05/15| <RossW> !kwheat 2 2
06:30:33-7/05/15| <RossBot> 2.00 Kilowatts input will heat water at 2.00 litres/min by 14.34 deg C
That should have raised the temperature 57 degrees in 4 minutes, or 43 degrees in 3 minutes.
So somethings not QUITE right there (but it's still close enough for government work!)
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I'm currently running on a 24v 10kW solar bank - my own design solar controller into 320 Ah lithium batteries (coming up to 3 years old), 3000W latronics, and just replaced a deceased chinese non transformer inverter with a 24v 8000W powerjack (i'll de-rate to 3000W)
Next year we'll be building a new shed / house on our property and it'll be a 48v 10kW solar, 320Ah Li system , hopefully with 2 x 6kW PJ homebuilt inverters.
You don't need to derate the 8000 to 3000 - it handles 4kW to 4.5 but I have just had significant success adding to my 24V unit a 3rd transformer from an ex 5000LF unit.
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
For some reason the extra transformer driven by the other inverter produced a lower voltage so I had to add some extra windings to match.
I used the original control board thinking that the temperature control on that would drive the cooling fan, but it's not working so I will take it out and possibly drive the fan in parallel with the fan in the other unit, although the driver transistors for that might not like the extra current.
Anyway, now I don't have to worry about turning the kettle on whilst the washing machine is running.
Best wishes
OTW
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Tomorrow we over load the system big time to see how the lousy fets hold up under 6-8kw... have no idea what they really are.. the print is IRFB4110... but they test out very much worse than that.... instead of 3.5-4.7mohm... they are 7-15mohm... every one is different.
I have a couple of hundred fets to sort through to repair a mod-sine inverter that is used for dump load and as a spare so interested in how you measure them.
I was going to use my bench PSU, current limit to a couple of amps and measure source/drain voltage with a suitable volts on the gate to push them hard on. Measure the volts with trusty mv meter and see what occurs!
Got a card left by the postie yesterday to arrange drop off of a 'large parcel' so sounds like my boards have arrived. I'll know when I get home tonight :)
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Frackers.
Current regulated power supply 5A
separate power supply to provide the 12v for the gate
Measure against the fet body for the mv drop across source drain pins.... or the tab and the source right against the body.
R=E/I
If you use 10amps it is instant no calc really.... ie 47mv=4.7mohm.... so .047/10=.0047 ohms
For the voltage Haven't done it at this time.... but the fakes all seem to have the voltage in the range. I believe that for say under 60v, then a 220k resistor in series with the drain, turn fet off ( short gate to source ), and the voltage will be clipped by the mosfet.... use high impedance volt meter.... thats the break down voltage.
For higher voltage units, you should use a breakdown meter..don't know why.
The rds is the slippery figure.
This means also that the capacitance on the gate is different too.
I suspect that there is a problem, with the deposition of the insulator and gate material, and the surface area and more particularly the thickness. The surface area and thickness of the gate will give you the capacitance.... simply measured across the sg pins... assuming the insulator is simple enough for them to do correctly.
It makes sense I suppose that the Rdson will be less, as if we loose some capacitance, then that and the rds will go hand in hand, as the less surface , and thickeness will limit both the capacitance, and importantly it's effect on the n channel to conduct.
So the worst of the fakes will have low capacitance, and higher rds on as a rule.... the voltage seems ok though.
Hope you stuff arrives.
As promised, I blew up the board again this morning... but not as I expected.
The fakes worked particularly well... and remained cool at 2kw, bit warmer at 4kw, and handled the 6kw of highly inductive load of the big mig welder without problem too....
So the whole thing was running far too well to blow up easily.
I put the transformer and board into a box to keep it all together neatly ..... and connected it to the 15a supply to pretest before the battery.... and unbelievably, with no load, it did it's pre test, and promptly blew up..... have no idea how or why..... time for autopsy.
The darndest thing....
...............oztules
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06:30:32-7/05/15| <RossW> !kwheat 2 2
06:30:33-7/05/15| <RossBot> 2.00 Kilowatts input will heat water at 2.00 litres/min by 14.34 deg C
That should have raised the temperature 57 degrees in 4 minutes, or 43 degrees in 3 minutes.
So somethings not QUITE right there (but it's still close enough for government work!)
[/quote]
Yes when I did a quickie on it ,I found I had used 456000 joules to do the work on the basis of 1900 watts (225X8.5...not a full 2kw) for 240 seconds
@ 4.18 joules /degree/cc X 2000ccX45c or 376200 joules..... this is a botch up of some 80000 joules could have heated an extra 400 ml or more.... maybe got the timing wrong you think??
Think I'll become an economist... there close enough is amazingly good and worthy of a nobel prize....or at least industry leader...
................oztules
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OTW,
How do you have that wired up exactly.... are you using two controllers or one.
..........oztules
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Good Show :)
Are you putting just one tranzorb per quadrant?
Is it mostly the case where an upper quadrant and corresponding lower quadrant blows but more damage (like circuit board tracks) is done to the lower quadrant?
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Well autopsy showed nothing. 5 fets decided to go to hell. All the rest fine.
Totems fine
Transorbs fine
Upper driver opto fine
Have not the slightest idea of what or why.... suspicion of a loose joint going to the inductor in series with the main tranny... but more wishing than proof.
So replaced the fets with china wannabees.. of 73mv@10amps... or 7.3mo, and all is well again... now I don't seem to be able to kill it to see the results.... always something.... if only the batteries were connected up this morning instead of just the 10 amp 53v power supply..... may have seen some explosions, and found out how the transorb went again....
Transorbs are only on the lower sides, the upper is isolated and plug ins....never charcoals.
..............oztules
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Interesting news of instructions for explosions above. Very important actually but probably beyond many of us - what are Transorbs?
Yes - I am using one controller simply putting the new transformer in parallel with the two in the other unit. In order to keep down the quiescent current I put a choke in on the return side of going back to the controlling inverter. I simply wired the output of the new transformer through a controller board in case there was an algorithm to switch on the fan automatically on high power draw, but that's not working, nor is the temperature sensor on the transformer.
The second fan is controlled by the second temperature sensor which is a plain thermostat. I took its power supply straight from the AC going into the transformer through a full wave rectifier and 100uf capacitor so that operation of that fan is failsafe whilst there is power available to the transformer.
I ran a current transformer sensor monitoring the output power back to the meter board in the primary inverter and wiring it in parallel with the current transformer in the original unit gets the meter to work accurately monitoring the out put from the three transformers.
Taking the power output directly from the auxillary transformer and not running it back through the primary inverter control card means that the power generation from that transformer is not monitored by the inverter controller and so is extra. This gives me the extra power that is convenient up to 4kW continuous and 5 and 6kW for long enough periods to be useful.
On a 24V system really the current draws on high power are not to be favoured so I wouldn't want to run a bigger inverter capacity on the system. At a draw of 4kW junctions in my busbars and connections get warm so being able to draw higher for periods of time limited by the inverter prevents anything getting hot.
Best wishes
OTW
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Got a card left by the postie yesterday to arrange drop off of a 'large parcel' so sounds like my boards have arrived. I'll know when I get home tonight :)
I was right - big box of stuff!
LF Driver rev1.1 2014.12.08 on one PCB and on the other LF8K Mosboard v2.1 2015.1.4
Still hunting for cores and wire. Might have to see about shipping some ex-Aussie grid ties here on the slow (cheap) boat across the tassie ditch. In the meantime, might put 2-3kw of transformer made up of those 1" thick rings.
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what are Transorbs?
To all practical purposes, they're zener diodes.
(There are AC and DC transorbs, AC ones are like a pair of series-back-to-back zeners)
Basically, they're VERY fast avalanche diodes.
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Transorbs ( actually tranzorb) are transient voltage suppressors ( TVS ) as Ross says, and you will find one under the control board... an obvious add on It is straight across the 12v to protect from spikes getting past to the computer i suspect. ( a add on wire is also there on mine for the 12v to the front socket for the display power)
They are zenners with a difference. The ones I had are bidirectional, and stand surges of 1500watts for a pulse and a few hundred amps...... then they die short if things go pear shaped.
They do work there too... if you incinerate the totems, there is a fair chance you will blow a diode in the pwm supply, and the tranzorb will go shortcircuit, and protect the logic end.
Gonna try the .1cap and 2k7 again, but this time lift 5 of the 20k resistors off the board. This will give me a better chance of seeing a proper waveform.. AND a decent voltage... and the 20k can still hold the gates at ground through the other gate resistors ... we'll see..
Frackers, can you get a picture of your boards please. These are the latest model I suspect, and I see they are selling fet boards ( 6 fets, a small board, and heat sink that bolts to the fet card... interesting concept...
[attachimg=1]
So detachable fet cards now. If they don't degrade performance, these things are definitely for remote area use...... don't need a soldering iron to fix the fets.....wow ... neat idea. are yours this type too?
Here for interest:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-LF-powerjack-pure-sine-wave-power-inverter-detachable-mosfets-board-parts/111648922855?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D30542%26meid%3D77721b77aec34f5ba0d569976f26e53a%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D121372307145&rt=nc
...........oztules
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Yup - mine look like that. Not knowing a lot about what older ones look like, the high side appears to have a ferrite bead on the gates, otherwise I think high & low side are the same. Lots of brass on the connectors so I would say they'll be OK with the high currents.
I'll take some pics tonight when i get home!
No idea how this lot connects up - my first guess is the primary of the transformer goes between the 2 rows of heat sinks where one row is also battery +ve.
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Yep the 4 or 6 black leads ( depends on 8 or 15kw boards) go to b- Big heat sink to b+ two smaller heats sinks to transformer.
....oztules
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Some pics of the wave format 1us resolution... not too shabby for the RC network either.
First normal:
[attachimg=1]
The with 5 source gate resistors removed to take the new gate source up to 20k total, and the 330n cap with a 2k7 resistor across it in series with the input to the fets for a cap drive. Still with the tranzorb across the totems... now way would they blow them up now.... but the voltage is a bit attenuated... hmmmm
[attachimg=2]
So the EE was right.
Now to see if we can improve it any more...... and no jokes about my crappy scope :-[... the fancy bells and whistles dual trace overhead fox tales and chrome handles Phillips one lasted only a year or so ... I have had this 30 years.... and it was old when I got hold of it......
On the first one,Interesting that it is nearly fully on in about 50ns and about 200ns full rise time...... wonder how much better we can get it now we have looked at it.
This is on a test bed on the bench, so no inductor on the small transformer I'm using ( about 5-800 watts )
Total control board protection looks within reach now.
..............oztules
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Hi
First post here, please be gentle :)
I've read most of the thread (and understood little, have to admit). I bought a 6000-12-230 a few months back as I needed a battery charger and a large capacity inverter to start the pool´s pump and some tools in my shed (lathe, welding machine, etc.). I´m specially interested in the standby losses. I see you guys found an easy and cheap solution to lower them to some 20-25 w, but even that is a bit too much for me. I also have a Victron Phonenix 3000 that draws some 15W according to specs (never measured).
So, I was thinking, since the Victron is always on and the PowerJack would only be turned on manually or controlled by a timer, how do you see a relay replacing the ON-OFF switch? This way I could keep the losses at a minimum. Thing is, I do not know if there are any risks on doing so?
The idea is the same timer that controls the load controls the relay, so the load would be connected to the output and then the POwerJack would be initialized and start driving the motor.
Any ideas / recommendations welcome
Cheers,
Rob
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and no jokes about my crappy scope
Heck no. I've still got my first ever CRO - a BWD539C. A little flasher than yours, but certainly doesn't hold a candle to my others nowdays. But was a great workhorse.
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If you put the inductor in and use sleep, it will use next to nothing. It was supposed to use 25watts in sleep if you had the original 400w loss... with a 25-30 watt loss, that will drop down to insignificant I suspect.. never measured it that mode... never used that mode..
But a relay instead of the switch will do fine without any problem. It will start a full load from standstill without a flinch.
If your control device has a spare NO/NC contacts then no relay needed either.... just bypass the switch with that.
.............oztules
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Do I read the question about the relay differently?
Is the thought to move from one inverter to the other inverter? The issue there is that they are not phase locked so going from one to the other can give a voltage surge.
OZT - with your current work with the boards, the holy grail might be to be able to use one controller card for multiple power cards in multiple inverters
Best wishes
OTW
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OTW... my experience with the victrons here is that they are pretty wimpy with inductive loads.
A 1500w induction motor with any load will generally stop them in their tracks....a 2kw motor probably won't start unloaded...... particularly if you have the house running as well. ( my PJ will easily start a 10hp 3phase motor used as a phase inverter.. no idea how it can either... in that configuration the start current must be immense )
So I expect the PJ will be used to drive the heavy intermittent loads on it's own AC circuit.
Stacking would be an interesting project, may be as simple as using the second and third in their UPS mode... there they sink with the main grid anyway... so you should be able to use the power from the "inputs" once the on board sync relay locks in... I wonder if it is that simple.
.......oztules
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Your comment about the PJ performance being superior to the Victron is interesting.
Certainly it's a pleasure to have been using the PJ without any glitch at all with any load and especially with the new power capacity arising from the stacked transformer. Many people find that it's the inverter that's their limitation and now with mine on 24V it's my busbars and connexions that prevent me being any more power greedy at this time.
It's on 48V that the opportunity for real power will happen and I'll need to find space for a new system.
I'm a little confused as my grid meter was changed around a year ago but doing readings the other day I think I have saved towards £3000 over the past year on grid electricity as a result of my grid-tie and offgrid systems so work on adaptation and improvement of these inverters is really worthwhile.
Best wishes
OTW
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There are a lot of off grid systems over here.
My experience with them is limited really, but some things stand out.
Most of them use gas fridges, gas hot water, and if they give you a coffee they heat the water on the gas top.
They can't do the washing at the same time as vacuuming or anything else really.
They are all under paneled, and rely on their generators to do a lot of things because their pretty inverters won't run anything useful
When they come face to face with what mine does, they are truly blown away. there are a few folks with real inverters (generally in the 8000 to 10000 dollar range, that can do pretty nearly as much as me, but, they are terrified to really let them off their leash, in case they damage them.... and the remoteness of the place discourages this behavior.
The PJ is great for a lot of reasons, but ease of backup is probably the most important one here..... so easy to fix and replace the entire innards for peanuts compared to the other equipment.
From what I have observed, the victron gives reasonably trouble free service..... but it is near useless for real living..... best for cave men with hardly any power use requirements.
................oztules
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With my construction of the 6kVA toroid is on hold until I get back to Brissie. I'm now at my alternate, very offgrid location watching the flood waters recede from last weeks downpour.
Just installed the new un-modified PJ Lf8000 24v to replace a blown up chinese HF unit as our secondary unit. It worked, 0.9amp idle (tick), however it trips out on over temp after 90 minutes of running the 1800W hot water. I can live with that if it has no other sins. Just let it cool down and run it again. I haven't run it with higher loads yet.
It's not running the house power, just HWS, transfer pumps, washing machine and a freezer. Seems to be running well enough on standby.
Cheap grunt as a 2nd inverter ... so far ;)
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Oztules
How things have changed .....
When we bought our offgrid property 8 years ago we were looking at $10 per watt for panels and many thousands for pure sine wave inverters so we were going to use LED lights, gas everything, super efficient appliances, and a lot of diesel. We had a 2400 watt Modified sinewave inverter - failure rate of light bulbs and power supplies for laptops, modems etc was high. The thought of running the electric jug for coffee, and electric HWS was crazy. Still haven't built final house but with panels at less less than 1$ / watt we got the 10kW solar array, new litium batteries, latronic 3kw PSW inverter and a second cheap 3kW HF inverter.
How things have changed - from then to now where I run the electric jug, Air conditioning - thank the gods, electric hot water, pumping water all over the place - all solar. The Generator gets a run maybe a dozen times a year, other than to run a compressor, welder or other serious tool.
Next year - we build and we'll go 48v and with the new 6kva inverter (x 2). We only just realised that with the new inverters that we'll no longer have to turn a genie on just to cut some timber or do some welding or use the grinder.
Absolutely marvelous .....
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How things have changed .....
When we bought our offgrid property 8 years ago we were looking at . . . .
How things have changed - from then to now where I run the . . .
Next year - we build and we'll go 48v and with the new 6kva inverter (x 2). We only just realised that with the new inverters that we'll no longer have to turn a genie on just to cut some timber or do some welding or use the grinder.
Absolutely marvelous .....
Yes - it's for the prospect of this sort of freedom that PJ has enabled by breaking both the technological and price barriers that I have been enthusing for a long time about what these inverters can enable us to do for a long time that we never imagined possible before. And this thread and OZT's work in hacking them to be able to do way more than intended is groundbreaking in unleashing the possibilities. My advice is to go to the 8000 or 16000 units and put more transformers in to enable them to run cooler and don't economise on the 6000W unit. That unit might even only have one transformer with extra cooling. However, the cheap ones on ebay give a source of extra transformers cheaply.
Best wishes
Harem
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Knowing what I know now, and if there were no grid ties to plunder the cores from, i would buy the 15000w unit, and then pick up a few elcheapo 8kw or less units, and build a new enclosure, combine the transformers and just laugh.
You can find buy it now 15000units for as cheap as $1000 and less, and I have seen the 8kw units auction for $300 and less... so for $1300 in well placed bids, a really decent inverter could be cobbled together no problem... probably in the 5-6kw continuous range would be very realistic.
If you got a decent 15000w unit for the $1000 with three 5kw transformers in it ( their bigger ones.... not the smaller ones with black texta crossing out the 3kw print) you may even get by with that for almost all houses... certainly all the current off grid ones using the normal parameters.
Oddly enough, I would just use a W7 power star as a shed inverter, rather than a PJ... even though it cant be easily lowered in the idle current department, it has huge transformers that will deliver excellent performance int the sheer grunt continuous department for big machinery...ie 250amp big migs and arc welders, huge compressors, laths mills etc etc.
They were getting around for $7-800 even a few years ago. They are the same thing, but the programming is better for the huge transformers to be taken advantage of.. PJ lowers the programming to reflect their smaller transformers and less noisy fan system.. so same start power, but half the continuous power at least because of the smaller transformers.... also because of the lossy trannies, the ups function works as advertised ( inrush current on freq exhange is not high enough to bother the fets)
It is a new world for sure.... and all good fun too.
....................oztules
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Hi
Thanks for tour answers
I'm going to add the filter and ser ir I could use the PJ as the Main inerter, keeping the Victron as a spare
This e cortehttp://www.ebay.com.au/itm/E6527-Kaschke-E65-E-EE-Ferrite-Cores-High-Frequen-Power-transformer-AL-7900-1set-/370597734866?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item564958a9d2
Is IT good for a 6000w 12v to 230v? Or shoul I go for something bigger?
3 to 4 turns of the largest cable I can fit?
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You will probably get the little 6000 down to around 20 watts with the E core. They already have ...NOW apparently some filtering already that brings it down to the 25w area already... probably not a lot left to get there now. That was the core I used, but them they had no filter at all, and worked at 8 times the idle current.
The 6000 is a little small for a real house off grid, it will do it, but if you run big loads for any time, you will probably find it turns off with over heat. They are really only a 2kw to 3kw unit full time at best.... they will start near anything , but long running on a small transformer is not good at higher loads. I ran our place on a PJ 6000w unit without problems, but the hot water was not hooked up to it at that time, and that one came with two transformers, so it never had to run loads over 2kw for very long... most inverters never have too. The hot water running on them now days, changes that , and now you need to have 5-6kw continuous... real continuous to make certain it will not shut down from long term overload... that normally means a current bypass and good cooling and bigger transformers.... the electronics seem perfectly fine anyway.
If you had a 15kw unit... then no problems at all for a real house..... including the hot water.... but that has two more transformers too.... and nice big heat sinks.
So, yes thats the ferrite, it may help a bit more.... I don't have a recent unit... all mine are 2013 or so..... quite different, they have improved them since then on the idle current... and a few other things from the looks of it. As it is, it's only 600watt hours to run it all day.... not much panel required for that.
....................oztules
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Hi Oztules
I'd like to order the choke cores and former and I'd like to run it past you.
The question i one of N27 vs N67 ? is one more suitable ?
On ebay;
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/E6527-Ferroxcube-E65-E-EE-Ferrite-Cores-bobbin-Power-transformer-AL-8600-1set-/370597734866
on RS;
http://au.rs-online.com/web/p/products/6479351/
the ebay one is N67,AL=8600nH, ~$32.50
RS N27,AL=7200nH, $22 + former if I can find it in the catalogue
for ref:
Farnell $32.81 + delivery if < $45
http://au.element14.com/epcos/b66387g0000x127/ferrite-core-e-65-n27/dp/2355098
http://au.element14.com/epcos/b66388a2000t001/coil-former-e-65-1-section/dp/2355076
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That is the sort of thing I used.
The 27 would be best, but not a lot of difference really.
You don't need a former.
Considering we don't even know how it actually makes such a mean difference, it is hard to tell you what you should really do.
A range of 12-20uh seems to work very well, more makes a small difference, less becomes less useful.
So you need only get the three turns into it for it to work..
The last one I did I had to strip the coating off the wire, and slide it into heat-shrink, and then wind it... it was too stiff and bulky otherwise..
..................oztules
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thanks
Geez, of-course I don't need the former ;D save me some dollars
cheers
Andrew
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Knowing what I know now, and if there were no grid ties to plunder the cores from, i would buy the 15000w unit, and then pick up a few elcheapo 8kw or less units, and build a new enclosure, combine the transformers and just laugh.
What you have done is genius and most certainly my 8000W unit with the extra 5000 transformer in it, adding to the winding to equalise the voltage, has been successful absolutely.
This really is a route that can be recommended.
Best wishes
OTW
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Newbie, sorry. Not sure if this question is close enough to this topic, but thought I'd start here. Feel free to redirect me if I'm misguided...
Powerjack 3000 24V in, split phase 110/220 out. Source is two 12V flooded 130Ah batteries in series, all charged by a Tracer 4210 MPPT controller and four 198W PV's in series for max voltage of ~ 80V on a good day. I spend getaway weekends in the little bunkhouse where this system is installed.
All works well, except often after being away for 4-5 days, I'll find the PJ shut down with the alarm sounding. Is there any way to find out what the fault was? I have a recording volt meter, so I thought about monitoring the 24V supply. The Tracer docs say that it goes into equalization (equalisation?) occasionally, and during that cycle could theoretically push the voltage to 29.6V. Is that too close to the PJ's shutdown threshold? If so, is there a way to adjust the PJ to give it a little more headroom?
Great info from all, thanks for all the good stuff here!
Cris
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Yes, the normal thing when charged from pulsating voltage. The computer is too sensitive, and is easily fooled by placing a resistor or zenner across the 10m resistor marked "cut if high" near the main chip.
Newer boards seem not to have this glitch... most of mine do.
pic and talk is here: reply 31 onwards http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1044.msg10326.html#msg10326
..oztules
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Thanks, Oz. Your influence apparently reaches into the Northern Hemisphere. After your reply and just the threat of modification, the thing has been perfectly stable for more than two weeks. I think I won't touch it unless it begins to have troubles again. The full summer sun days are just in full swing, so maybe it's seasonal. I'll watch it and see if there's a change in the Fall when the clouds return.
Cheers-
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Hi Oztules!
I hope it's not too stormy on your island, we're having a cool summer here in London .
I also have a 8kW LF PJ, and would like to mod it as you have done. is there a guide to your mods, as mistakes with these can lead to big bangs! I am an electronics engineer, and practical to boot.
Thanks.
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Hi and welcome.
If its a recent purchase, you may well have to do nothing... as they seemed to have been reading this thread, and actioned it.
I believe that they now have ferrites on the transformer leads, and this brings the idle power down to respectable levels.
The most recent boards I bought, did not shut down early from pwm charging on them.. so in theory they are good to go now out of the box.. Before that they suffered from false triggering of over voltage from the current spikes, not the rms.
If not, then around 18uh of inductance on the transformer lead, and a zener across the cut if high resistor ( previous pics) will just about do it...... but like I said, they may have done this all anyway from the sounds of it.
More power is obtained by a bypass of wire around the CT.... but cooling is a possible problem then.
I suppose we should ask... what parameters do you wish to change.... and we will see if we have done it or not.
It is true, that these things are 80% turned in in only about 50nano seconds from the cro traces I have put here somewhere, and are switching a wave form every 4useconds.... so when things go bad, they go bad very very fast..... but they seem pretty stable if you keep foreign metal bits out of the area , and turn them off when changing battery charging sources.
I'll try to answer any questions you may have.
...............oztules
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Hey.
I greet all those present at the local forum.
I want to ask you for help to repair the drive.
Namely: I do not know how to fix driver in the drive LF 48V10000W
All MOSFETs are already exchanged do not know how to replace the driver.
The control board seems to be OK.
Thank you for answer.
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Circuits are here http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,780.0.html
Usually the transistors and the opto's need replacing.
You will see the signals( with a scope ) for the lower side from the 339 chip at the extreme left end of your yellow circle.... check the circuits.
..............oztules
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Thnks.
the driver schema is the same for all models?
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The raised board are a later addition/change, but essentially electrically identical, but for bigger caps and some through hole components that were surface mount before .... the totems and opto's are the same ( or equivalent).
...............oztules
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:)
Ok
Problem is, i cannot find this fet 2sc2873 in shop.
Can i give another part? in to92 dimensions.
thnks
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http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10PCS-2SC2873-Y-Encapsulation-SOT-89-/381095888269?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58bb15c58d
TO92 will be very hard on the tracks. Stay with the original if you can.
any 2Amp 50v npn hfe>130 will do it I guess.
eg 2sa1020 and 2sc2655 will do for the totems.
If you want to stop it from burning things again, perhaps some series micro fuses and a transient supressor/diode across the totem outputs.That way if you blow the fets in testing, it won't destroy your hard work rebuilding the drivers.
.............oztules
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OK thanks.
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Hey.
So the third attempt to defect again.
They were used in the driver transistors SS8050.
Inverter nicely buttoned and had a nice sine wave, consumption at idle as before the first puncture 0,8A
When taking 50W no problem.
500W under load again defect, the entire left half of the mosfet KO
What might be the problem? I've been baffled.
Thanks
:'(
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ss8050 was the npn, what did you use for the pnp?
If all else fails, then http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Main-Board-Control-Board-for-LF3000-15000w-pure-sine-wave-power-inverter-/121372307145?var=420314376999&ssPageName=ADME:X:EAC:AU:3160
.... oztules
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s8550 for PNP
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Hi All,
The Better-Half had the electric lawn mower out the other day and 15mins later came to me in the garden to advise it (24v 5000W LF) had suddenly stopped and there was a puff of smoke and a burnt smell coming from the inverter... ??? The pictures say it all, 15 months after I got it... :(
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
It looks to me like that middle fet on the + side of the Main Board burned up and popped the 2 fets to the right, as well as the 1 fet on the - side.
The mower is 1100W and admittedly at start-up it would invoke the overload alarm for one single beep and then power on without issue. All other appliances (water pump, kettle, mulcher, Laptops, power tools, etc) always worked without issue. The inverter only receives fairly limited part-time use, manually switched on/off as needed, because lights, fridge/freezer, and small appliances (Laptops, Radios, etc) all run direct from the DC charge controller.
So any ideas out there what went wrong? I'm admittedly ignorant of proper inverter etiquette... e.g. could cold-starting it at 6:30am most mornings to boil my tea have contributed to it's early demise? I recall you mentioning OZ that putting fuses (like NT00/NT1?) between your inverter/batteries can help save your fets under certain circumstances too. Admittedly I only have 2 x high voltage DC isolator switches on the positive side. I'm using 4 gauge power cable on all 4 terminals. Pro's/Con's of using 2 vs 4 terminals?
ANY advice that would help me to prevent future such incidents would be greatly appreciated!!!
Thanks to OTW, I'm now in touch with Cher for replacement boards. She's confirming if the Main Board with detachable fets will work in my inverter (would make future repairs quicker/easier/cheaper). I notice there's about 3 wires to solder to the Control Board, beyond that, anything I should look out for/do specifically?
Plus I'm finally biting the bullet and ordering an 8000W unit while I'm at it. I've asked Cher to ensure I get a good'un (i.e. 2 x 5000W Toroid's - thanks OZ :) ). Is there anything else I should be looking out for/requesting? Can anybody confirm if the current boards do indeed have a better/lower idle current than the old boards? And have they also fixed/raised the high voltage alarm level?
PS: So the 5000W is now destined for the bore and I'll wire a 24v Timer into the on/off switch so it pumps autogomagically without me having to make a trip down the hill... 8)
Thanks all!
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A fuse.... will only help stop board burning... and possibly the totems if it goes fast enough. I only want it to stop te totems burning the board. This is when the fets fail, and the 30v ( 60 in my case)can go back through the gate resistors, and burn up the transistors on the totem. If the fuse won't blow because the cascade is too slow, then there is a good chance that the 60v will continue back through the 10 pin wiring, and cook the circuit board under them.
It won't stop fets blowing i wouldn't think. I have not had them blow for no reason that I have not caused... so can't really comment on why they decided to go. They gave a huge margin for o/load with the 4110 fets in the 48v units, not sure of the 24v ones...... but o/load is very unlikely to kill them... more probably something to do with voltage spikes from loose connection in the battery line, or terminal connections in the inverter to the heat sinks.... or even the 10 pin ribbon is loose.
OTW has a lot more info than me on what PJ may be doing now, it is some time since I bought one now... but I believe the idle current has been addressed, and the last 15kw 48v board I got seems to have no bad habits of any kind re... the over voltage from the pulse charger... or anything else really.
I suspect you will need both boards replaced unless you have a good soldering iron...... then totems, opto's, fets and resistors on the fet board (50r ones) will need replacing at the least.....probably should be enough.... but why it blew?????? look for loose somewhere....
The 24v ones may not burn up the boards under the totems, but the 48v ones sure do.
for 24v units, use all 4 terminals if you have the opportunity..... I don't like 24v at over 1-2kw, as the currents get out of hand too quickly.
.................oztules
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It looks to me like that middle fet on the + side of the Main Board burned up and popped the 2 fets to the right, as well as the 1 fet on the - side.
OTG - Go after the set, not just the 3 that are obvious. You're likely to find others have locked up, and likewise, there will be some that may still bench ok but have sustained damage. Be right back in there at the first sign of the next transient etc yada. No fun.
It may look like a real PITA changing them all out, but while you've got it torn down is the time. I'm sure I'm not the only one that's tried to skimp on this and been bit by it :-\
Steve
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Hi Just been reading this. Notice mention Of the adding of a choke to the Dc input to transformer reduced standby current significantly. I was recently lead a merry dance on a inverter unit that showed high standby current on my clip on dc meter even moving coil meters showed less but high resorted to moving iron meter different story. Cannot remember figures now but it was extremely bad filtering allowing radiation. Could get readings without clipping over the lead even . Have since seen this on a number of cheap inverters.
Herb
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Very nice to hear your still alive Herb.
Yes, the tiny filter seems to make a huge difference, much more than it should... but it is a real difference, as even the transformers run much cooler. I use analogue meters because of spurious reporting from digital stuff any where near pwm power stages.... and clip ons are only for rough guidance I think in this scenario.
Nice to hear from you
...............oztules
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Perhaps this should be the subject of another thread but finding that my 8000W inverter enhanced by another transformer from a 5000W unit provides power so reliably that I don't have to think about it most of the time the challenge became to construct a timeswitch that could choose power either from the Grid for off peak cheap electricity or the solar battery bank the rest of the time.
I'm running the solar system without an earthed neutral, so requiring double pole isolation in changing over between grid and solar.
I found using a timeswitch to apply grid to the inverter to run the inverter as a UPS system that large voltage spikes were produced and it blew two LED floodlights in a couple of months. For this reason I have gone out of my way, bringing the supply to the house rather than merely the barn and workshop, to use rotary manual double pole changeover switches with a very clear off position. These ensure that at no time is there connectivity between grid power and inverter power. In changing over, however, modems and printers would go into a reset routine every time.
So the challenge for a switch was interesting.
I used a quadruple pole contactor with 2NO and 2NC contacts rated at 20amps, and, running at a maximum 30 amps ran the lives in parallel through the 2NO contacts. I used two identical sets of units, one for connecting to grid and one for connecting to inverter. I used one of the two NC contacts to feed energising current to the other contactor. This means that one contactor cannot be operated until the other contactor is clearly in OFF mode. I then took the live from this contactor to feed the energising signal to two more contactors, one for live and one for neutral. This means that both live and neutral cannot be connected until the 4pole contactor is firmly ON and the other supply firmly disconnected by their similar units.
The system works well and on account of giving a specific time delay of only one or two cycles presents any phase difference not as a wild jump but simply as a glitch of a missing cycle or two.
Upon connection, a contactor isn't going to move until the cycle is well above zero. When that connects in will be subject to a mechanical delay. That then feeds energising current to the two contactors for Live and Neutral and likewise these won't move until the next maximum. I'm guessing therefore that there will be a two peak delay between initial energisation and the connexion resulting. Meanwhile that process won't have been initiated before the other unit has not only disconnected from its phase but made the NC contact to enable and initialise the contactor of the new phase to be connected. In doing so the live of the previous phase will have been disconnected for certain, leaving their following contactors for L and N to break connexion in their own time.
The arrangement works as regular as clockwork, literally and at 12.30 GMT and 7.30 GMT a mechanical clonk announces the changeover without any mains equipment showing any signs of noticing.
Best wishes
OTW
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Thanks OTW.
Your contactor double pole change over arrangement is something I have been considering. Now that you have done something solid, I will obtain the necessary bits.
Here in France I can then utilise the Cheap night tarrif, as EDF give you a 2a relay contactor switch, so no time switch required.
Photo, At present I have manual double pole change over switches, centre position is OFF. I am pretty quick with them and not a lot of household appliances are disturbed, but the young boys Play Station always freaks out.
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I have a completely different inverter system to you - one that's designed to be generator interactive (and/or grid interactive).
When the generator/grid input is connected, the inverter see it is there, but does nothing with it initially. Once it's happy it's stable, it matches the inverter voltage to the generator/grid voltage, matches the inverter frequency to the generator/grid frequency and then drifts the inverter phase to match the generator/grid phase. When all three are the same (or near enough), it pulls in a hefty contactor and bridges the inverter output, the generator/grid input, and the load - all together.
This works completely flawlessly - both changing to and from generator/grid, I've had no glitches in over 10 years.
It would be nice if it were "easy" to build something similar for your application.
Assuming the inverter frequency is within 0.1Hz (and I would expect it to be!), there may well be enough phase drift (but still slowly enough) for a simple phase comparator made from a couple of opamps to detect when they're synchronised and pull in a contactor.
(That doesn't address the isolated neutral, which would be illegal in my country anyway)
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Ross,
Actually thats how the PJ is supposed to work, and certainly does with the W7 powerstar transformers ( EI ) without problems. ( same boards)
I have found the PJ waits and drifts to match then pulls in the shorting relay always without a problem... but when it disconnects, it tries to re-establish 50.0hz too fast, and torroids seem to blow things up with the inrush... the lossy EI transformers in a W7 powerstar don't generate enough inrush current to bother the switchers, and so cause no problem... but gee, the big torroids can cause utter destruction.... if only they drifted back to 50.0hz like they drift in.... would be the complete package.
Thats why you need to switch the unit off before disconnect ( they say before connect too, but it is not necessary, it syncs in perfectly well on the run.
Once in sync and output is shorted to load and input, it can charge depending on the switch position of the battery types and three stage charging regimes to match.. or just run the loads in thruput mode.
In theory, if the generator has not enough to run the loads, then the unit should help it run the load ( try to keep the voltage up where it should be is all that happens i think..... I have not bothered to try it,as my generator is 7kw, so hard to find big enough load to test it out.)
.................oztules
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While the PJ might synchronise, after it causing spikes on switching in the barn and blowing out LED floodlights, I haven't trusted it and in the interests of avoiding big bangs, inserting a break of a cycle or so doesn't seem to be a bad idea . . .
I kept the Neutral unearthed to avoid earth currents especially in the event of lightning as the barn is over 150 metres from the house. I'm using 5x 10mm SWA cable and from memory using 3 cores for live and 2 cores for neutral together with the external armour to beef up the neutral. It works well giving less than 10 volts drop on a 3kW load. In view of the possibility of damage to the outer insulation neutral may well become earthed and it's then that earth current complications could happen.
This is my manual switch box
[attachimg=1]
There's an ammeter monitoring the current on all three circuits switchable between solar and grid, so that if there is a particularly heavy draw I can switch back to grid, and the bottom red switch is for lights.
I've simply taken various circuits from the house and routed them through the changeover switch system.
Another of the reasons for not relying on the PJ syncing and instead giving full double pole and time delayed switching is that from the grid not all circuits are on the same phase. Whilst there are warning labels inside the box it would probably be appropriate to put more exciting labelling on the outside of the box and to make use of the lock . . .
This is the automatic box showing the type of contactors
[attachimg=2]
I tried a further sequential delay putting the 2nd grid contactor energised by live from the live output of the primary contactor and the neutral of the energising coil to the output of the secondary neutral so that live would not be connected until after neutral was connected but this, however caused the earth leakage breaker to blow feeding from the solar supply.
[attachimg=3]
Looking at the circuit as implemented I see that I wired the energisation of the secondary contactors with the primary contactors on account of the two systems having two different neutrals. Where Neutral was common, then the secondary contactors could be activated from the Live appearing at the switched side of the primary contactors.
In this arrangement there is less of a delay but any chance of different phases meeting has a double-barreled protection.
The delay here is only the deactivation time of the turning off contactor followed as the NC connection is restored by the activation time of the turning on time of the slowest of the three contactors.
Best wishes
OTW
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I have been intrigued by a sinusoid driver board http://www.egmicro.com/download/EGS002_manual_en.pdf and on ebay these are all of around £5 or so . . .
These might be interesting as an alternate driver board for the PJ power boards . . . and . . . one of the ebay ads suggested that it could be used for the conversion of a modified sine wave inverter also . . . which begins to be interesting if one has one lying around not doing very much . . .
Best wishes
OTW
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I was going to go this way originally, but with the PJ as cheap as they were then ( $45 for the control card then), I went this way.
Now the prices are getting high enough that I may try this board and see how it goes. The power board is simple to build, and the control card should be too.
I admit I like the PJ isolated supply for the fets, but I may give the current pump drivers a go. I have the transformars, so not much to loose I guess.
If it works, then a very powerful pure sine wave unit could be built for little money, providing the drivers can drive 6 fets in parallel.
................oztules
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What intrigues me is the conversion of existing modified sine inverters to pure sine . . . ;-)
Nothing, however, in that direction can be as robust as the Power Jack units as they are.
My battery bank attracts criticism on YouTube as I use discarded but very much alive AGM batteries which I buy for no more than £15 each, wiring in multiple banks. For a 24V system I insert the link between the two series batteries as a piece of solder wire which blows at 7 amps. So safety is at the heart of the system between the cells. Groups of 10 24V batteries are wired together and connected with 6mm cable to a junction with 5 other such groups. I use Henley Block connectors combining the six wires and two connector blocks allows one to insert a solder wire fuse between the two connectors. The fuse is made up of 12 strands of solder wire twisted together and fuses at about 80 amps. 10 such banks are connected with 2x6mm cable to busbars made of one or two strips of scrap aluminium lightning conductor tape, 75mm2 and each of the banks is connected through a 100amp switch.
Using a 8000W LF inverter to which I've added the extra transformer, it's capable of supplying 20-24amps mains before the inverter trips. No doubt peaks can be much higher. Recently with dishwasher, washing machine, kettle, toaster, urn for large quantities of hot water, multiple appliances at once have caused a large draw and no doubt heavy peaks. In normal use at around 4kW none of my battery cables gets anywhere warm but the system does allow for peaks - but which have blown the fuse to a bank of batteries, cutting one out and then another and then another and then another as the availability to cope with peaks is reduced, until only one bank last week was operational and I had to go around and replace all the fuses. But the system is inherently safe and very effective.
Working with wet cell systems with heavy capacity is a very different matter.
But importantly the PJ unit has managed to exceed the fused capacity of the battery bank, which says a lot for these inverters, and I'm effectively unable to go to higher power without looking at a 48V system.
Best wishes
OTW
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The only difference between a pure sine hf unit and a modified sine hf unit is the driver signal... every thing else is the same.
If you drive the h-bridge with mod drive, you get mod out, if you drive it pure sine, you get pure sine. Just need a decent filter on the output to shape the wave a bit more...... tidy it up so to speak.
so 12v to 320vdc then bust it up into pure sine 240vac rms.... instead of modified sine 240v rms. The area under the wave form is the same, and the peak voltage attained in each cycle is the same..... just the shape is different.
.........oztules
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I have been intrigued by a sinusoid driver board http://www.egmicro.com/download/EGS002_manual_en.pdf
Russian experiments with that ctrl. board
http://realstrannik.com/forum/etalon/197-invertor-sinus-50-gts-svoimi-rukami.html
Mike
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This control board has already been proven to be usable about a year ago. Stu http://www.lz2gl.com/power-inverter-3kw/ I think for those with the skills this would be the best starting point, use this to provide the driver for a 19kw PJ type output board
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Yes, they have done a sterling effort there.... not how I would have done it either.
Not sure of their thinking , but they made it work. Would like to have seen a scope of the driver signal on the cro. ( at the gate source resistor). It looks a bit over the top for the drivers, and I'm not sure if it is warranted..... or even better than direct drive from the drivers...... I seem to use loads more copper... wondering at the heat in those windings at power for too long.
It is an interesting approach. If the switching is vastly improved ( and it was good just with single bipolar totems), then it may make up for their high Rds on. Theirs is 10 times higher than the 4110's... so 10 times the losses, and less of them... more losses.... at least they have half the input capacitance.
So I think they have done brilliantly... but thinking the Chinese PJ can show them a few things too.
If I was to test this way, I would use a pj power board driven direct..with feedback.......... and then test a pair of isolated power supplies and totems or opto's for the high side and see if there is any advantage in not using the boards output as is.
There are a few (EG8010) on my bench from a few years ago... have not touched them as yet..... struggling to see why at the present..... as I have too many inverters laying around from experiments so far. ... may have to try it out of curiosity one day..... but not like them.
But the PJ boards are pricing themselves much higher now .... 45 dollar boards are now near 100, and power cards are expensive too now.... but gee they are still good value..... used to be $179 for complete board set........ sigh....
..........oztules
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i would say their thinking would be akin to mine in that this design is similar in some ways to a class E AM transmitter this may provide some insight to various methods of drive for Fets http://www.classeradio.com/ at high efficiency and while being used to produce AM switching is switching and you may find something of interest here . Stu
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I have set up a small solar shed installation for an outside workshop. Three scrap solar panels are mounted vertically on the south wall and keep the batteries topped up for occasional use. I've connected a 3kW PJ inverter. The standby current used to be 3Amps and since using 4 turns on the E cores it's down to 400mA. But I have a problem. The two E cores are chattering together under load: what's the best way of stopping the vibration?
I thought I could get away with fitting the inductor inside the case but it's about 1/2 inch too thick :-(
Best wishes
OTW
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Hi OTW,
I've experimented with E cores too, but ended on a ferite ring core 101 x 15 mm http://atv.hamradio.si/photo_album/_projects_/Photo_Voltaic/PV-2015/slides/IMG_9032.html (http://atv.hamradio.si/photo_album/_projects_/Photo_Voltaic/PV-2015/slides/IMG_9032.html)
Winding 14 turns of a 25 mm2 welding cable on will do the job. Even better if you get 16 turns on. On a 8kW 48/230v PJ the standby current with 14 turns drops down to 310 mA (14,4W) :)
Mike
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Super glue the cores together. you must stop all mechanical movement possible between the cores.... super glue does this if applied properly... ....if it still whines, then you still have movement some where..... some how...... try again.
Mike, good job on the idle currents.... you may get more turns or thicker wire ( much better) if you strip the casing off and use heat shrink... 25mmsq is a bit light for my taste if your going to push it hard for long.... or are you using the original transformers,,, or maybe parallel up would be best... nice looking solution.
..............oztules
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you may get more turns or thicker wire ( much better) if you strip the casing off and use heat shrink... 25mmsq is a bit light for my taste if your going to push it hard for long.... or are you using the original transformers,,, or maybe parallel up would be best... nice looking solution.
Yes, I know. Have tested it up to 5kW and coil became a bit hot after few hours... Normally there is only up to 3kW power every day on it (heat pump or washing machine). 25 mm2 is just a temporary solution, it's still inside the original - to small Chinese Aluminum shell. Yes, transformers are in the moment original.
Good idea about using heat shrink ...
Anyhow, few days ago I got on eBay from one German a bit larger transformer, sizing 23 x 14 cm. Will unwind the secondary and put mine on.
What about original metal/sheet shields around PJ transformers, what are they for?
I guess, they put them only to protect winding... and they prevent more efficient cooling :-\
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I would be thinking the metal sheilding is to reduce the RFI produced as this potentially could produce problem's with the switching frequency
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Hi folks, I'm playing with the LF's on 12v and 48v systems, now trying to communicate with a seller on Ebay by the name of David to procure some main and control boards.
He is bent on making sure that the boards he sends are identical to the ones I currently have, which is understandable, but this is the same model that had problems with solar controllers triggering shutdowns and the like. (My nice 8000/48v unit went south in a puff of smoke, beware of the tape under the pcb! I was trying to mod the sensing resistor and a blob of solder went through the hole and spread out between the tape and the pcb.)
Anyway, I'm trying and failing to convince him to send me new versions of the boards. Has anyone seen/played with the newer versions and are they pin/terminal compatible with the old ones? It doesn't matter if they aren't, as long as there is enough info for me to follow to put a working unit together. A picture or two of them would be great. I am planning to rewind a couple of Inspire toriods so I can kick over my big single phase compressor.
Cheers!
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I'm so sorry to have been negligent in answering PMs here from Sean and Phred on similar questions about PJ boards. I've been in France where I indulge in mad escapades of animating a puppet who does crazy things
[MOD EDIT - LINK REMOVED - Off The Wall - This is a family-friendly site, and links to this kind of material are not acceptable. I'm leaving the directly linked individual pictures as they themselves are not specifically in violation, and being Oztules' thread, he can take further action if he sees fit. - Steve (MadScientist267) ]
and who uses me as her chauffeur demanding to go places
(http://www.dollalbum.com/dollgallery/albums/userpics/14413/normal_DSCF6272.JPG)
and is able to draw attention to things such as . . .
(http://www.dollalbum.com/dollgallery/albums/userpics/14413/normal_DSCF6287.JPG)
commenting that if we used so much carbon then by the end there'd only be silicone people like her around.
It was a long journey and before long we needed more fuel
(http://www.dollalbum.com/dollgallery/albums/userpics/14413/normal_DSCF6289.JPG)
which she put into the tank
(http://www.dollalbum.com/dollgallery/albums/userpics/14413/normal_DSCF6295.JPG)
(http://www.dollalbum.com/dollgallery/albums/userpics/14413/normal_DSCF6296.JPG)
so gently drawing attention to issues upon which we focus here.
For anyone wanting boards, Cher at PJ is very very helpful and I recommending getting in touch with her directly. powerjack.cher )@( gmail dot com
On Sean's tip-off I have been trying out a PJ MPPT controller for charging 24V batteries from solar panels but have had indeterminate results so far as to whether it's advantageous or not. Without doubt wiring 30V panels in series pairs to make 60 volts and using EP Solar Tracer MPPT units really does get the last drop of power out of the panels whilst I've found the cheap "MPPT30" http://www.yoosmart.com/mppt-30a-solar-charge-controller-mppt30.html to be rather good - and importantly controllable in setting maximum battery voltage giving different charging regimes for summer and winter.
Best wishes
OTW
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OTW, France you say......... :)
All here are very obliging. Pic shows yesterdays Evening movements, local young ladies on the tractor.
[attachimg=1]
Thanks for the tip regards.... "For anyone wanting boards, Cher at PJ is very very helpful and I recommending getting in touch with her directly. powerjack.cher )@( gmail dot com "
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Hi mr Oztules, Ive tried to get my head around your description of the filter you installed on the powerjack 8000w, and don't want yet another fried inverter on my hands, so could you please explain just exactly where the E core should be installed? where the primaries are located, are the transformer primaries siamesed onto the output of the filtered cable etc!
sorry for the questions, I went out (well online) and bought an Identical model and the E core to suit!
I'm in southern tas so getting stuff here isn't a great deal easier than Flinders it seems.
My setup is changing all the time and is now, 8x200w 45v panels in 4 strings of 2 leading to a Gsl mppt charge controller to 12x600amd 2v cells then at the moment a powerjack 8000w modified sine wave inverter!
my 3000w hf powerjack pure sine wave failed to precede! I can only run our fisher and paykel washer on one simple wash cycle as the others get stuck, and our 1970s microwave just Humms, Also now I'm older I cant read the subtitles on my 12v 19" tv so I bought a Kogans 32" cheapy, which I am too scared to even hook up!
regards
Augustus
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Hi!
It's great to welcome you. I've gone through different power jack inverters - and have a 8000 Modified Sine wave for a circuit for an electric heater in the barn or other emergency use but that's not the one I use. I had a 5000 Pure Sine serving another circuit and before finding OZT's genius modification to the LF inverters, used that in winter as its standby wastage was only 1 amp or so rather than 5 amps of the unmodified 5000LF. But that Pure Sine unit lasted only a year and a radio ham friend was frustrated by its radio interference.
The Modified and Pure Sine inverters are High Frequency inverters. These take the 24V or whatever DC and turn it into high frequency AC then to go through very efficient tiny transformers, then to be rectified to high voltage DC and then chopped and split into + and - parts of the AC cycle.
It's the LF units that are magic. These are pure beef and are as reliable as an ox. They take the DC, chop it up and shape it into AC at the same voltage and then shove that through the big heavy transformer to give your AC power. And it's in the power lead from the electronics to the transformer low voltage side that one inserts the choke described by OZT and it's these units also that can provide false grid to grid tie inverters for larger mini-grids.
Best wishes
OTW
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Thanks for the welcome OTW, and the description, I suppose that it will be all that bit clearer once the beastie arrives next week and I get the cover off!
cheers A
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I received my powerjack 8000w LF in the mail this morning and pulled the cover to check all the connections, which were all nice and tight and It only had One large torroidal transformer! Is this particular to the 2015 model?
also there is an unlabled switch on the front panel< does anyone know what its for, I can't find anything in the owners manual about iit'
It has become apparent where the E filter goes though.
A
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Is the label on the transformer blacked out in pen?
The 8000W unit should have two transformers.
The 6000W unit had two 3000W transformers.
The variants of transformers used to be 3000W for the 3000, 6000 and 10000W units and 5000W for the 5000, 8000 and 15000W units.
If you bought yours on an auction that had a low price start . . . . .
I only buy units either for me or for people who come to me through Cher. I pay more usually than ebay prices.
Best wishes
OTW
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I'm new here but can contribute.
I recently bought a PJ 15kw 48v and it has the small toggle switch unlabeled as to function. I emailed the seller and was told some inverters (apparently at random) were fitted with a toggle to force the main fan to run continuously if desired.
That was a few months back and I have since noted that the toggle is wired parallel to the thermal switch on the first toroid xfmr and does indeed turn on the main fan.
Why some inverters and not others? Good question.
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That sounds interesting and might indicate under-rating the transformers requiring more continuous cooling . . . or for hotter climates.
Best wishes
OTW
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hi guys
i have browsed this topic somewhat most people seem happy with powerjack inverters, might be a good idea to ask here b4 my purchase
i currently have a kipoint inverter the low frequency model 1200W, works well, still good after 7 years of always being on. but now need a 12v system.
is it a problem if i buy the inverter on ebay auction, not the buy it now? i am looking at the bidding for the 3000 LF LCD model.
any recommended seller? full listing vs auction??
i will run a desktop pc and home theatre.. watts meter shows max 1000 watts used when gaming.. sounds right to me.
so the smallest 3000w power jack is the one im looking at.
my concerns are idle power consumption, but i see you have modified them adding a choke.
.................
so please guide me on ebay auctions, ok to buy? are these inferior to full listings?
price approx to modify adding choke for better idle use power, do latest LCD 2015 models perform better than older ones?
and general build quality? will it last? any additional comments welcomed
if there is better option.. better quality for a few dollars more. i would consider it.
im just scared to buy this, if the circuits die, is it costly to repair? dont want to harm my computer, tv, etc using a crap inverter. bud very budget minded on next inverter choice. tho 350 to 400 $AU seems cheaply.. if better models exsist for say $100-200 more and if au branded, built
EDIT...
ive also been looking at this one, unit weight of 24kg so must have a transformer in it.. low frequency plus derrimet is just next suburb over. might get a offline deal!
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-9000W-PEAK-12V-PURE-SINEWAVE-POWER-INVERTER-40A-CHARGER-REMOTE-10M-CABLE-/360771967853?hash=item53ffaf5b6d:g:iV4AAOSwyvBV9jTB
different brand
thanks so much..
p.s. typed on a tablet.. sorry for spelling and no caps
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Hi! And WELCOME!
A few posts up is Cher's email address - I'd email her and tell her that you specifically want the 3000LF with the intended proper 3000LF transformer.
Because these inverters are cheaper than others, you can afford to buy a spare set of the electronics. Ask her.
They won't go wrong and you won't need them. But if you do, having them means that you're not in a panic.
What would be really really helpful is if someone who knows the circuit might be able to give instructions on how to drive multiple power boards with one controller board . . . Any chance?
Best wishes
OTW
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thankyou for referring me to that email.. seems like she is going to look after me, good price and interesting to test the invertér
thanks
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Toxic,
The inverter you pointed to (pw7) is a very good work horse. Basicaslly the same electronics, but with E I transfromer..... very lossy.
You can email the seller and find out if the 25w idle is on continuous or search mode.... if continuous, then I would probably go for that one ( basically next door from the sounds of it).
The EI transformers can be in the hundreds of watts idle, so check it out if it is physically in your neighbourhood...... The W7 is generally far more stable out of the box, but very hungry.
Ask them about replacement boards too. They should have them, as I got some for my big W7 (18000w). If you can use a soldering iron, then you only need the control board really.
The PJ can be hungry too, but the choke can bring it right down, the EI does not respond nearly as well...but it will respond.... usually double or more than the torroids.
If you have plenty of solar, and a few extra KWH is of no consequence, then the W7 is better ( albeit noisier ). The PJ is only a real winner if you want low idle power with high intermittant surges.... the PJ will not be useful as a UPS.... the W7 will..... remember with the PJ you must turn the unit off before connecting mains, and before disconnecting mains .... or you will kill it. W7 transformers are sloppy enough to allow this just fine.... horses for courses.
I don't use my W7 anymore, as the idle is high with original transformers, but that is the only fault with them I can find ( the fan running full time is not too sexy either). So I use PJboards and different transformers... best for me... but not everyone.
..................oztules
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hi again,
in your last reply one thing is of concern.
"remember with the PJ you must turn the unit off before connecting mains, and before disconnecting mains"
I have a relay which when battery hits xx volt it switch to mains... when volt is high it returns to inverter..
will powerjack happily accept a load of 500 to 700w as soon as the relay is connected to inverter. the statement you said seems powerjack wants to softstart everything?? confused..
my current inverter is happy with this,. works well
what choke do I buy for improve watts at idle since powerjack will stay on 24hr.
what cost, and what negative effect will this mod have if any?
thx
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Sounds like your switching the mains after the inverter... this is fine, and it will carry any reasonable load on start up... I have hit mine with 8kw loads or more on turn on....no problems
It is driving the ac input to the inverter that is the problem. It syncs in fine ( although they still say to turn off, I don't think it is necesary, as it gently ramps over.... but it is turning off the mains to the inverter ( acting as charger at that point) that dices with death. It is instantly goes to 50hz, which depending where on the curve it is, will determine the surge current into the transformer.... it may also be that your single transformer is not big enough to cause the fault.... mine is huge, so kills it very effectively.
This is taken from ebay advert for the 3kw unit
PLEASE NOTE: for battery charge mode: before charge the battery, please turn off the inverter first, connect the AC power cord with home AC source and inverter, then turn on the inverter to start the function. When finished, need to turn off inverter first, then disconnect the AC power cord. Otherwise the PCB board might be damage due to high voltage spark.
Interestingly they also claim it is a UPS unit....go figure.
Your taiwan kipoint inverter may not use torroids (judging from the low efficiency I think this is the case (80%))... and non-torroids do not have the surge of torroids... can be 60 times the run current. The electronics was designed for EI transformers from the W7 style of inverter, and they have no problem.. even with two huge transformers in them./... torroids are a class of their own.... they are very tight magnetically. If they actually had control of the software, they could simply slowly move back to default frequency, and the big problem would be solved.... but I don't think they have control of the software in the chip for many functions.
They are putting in ferrites now, and I believe that has solved the original problem.... have not bought a new one for years now ( yes they still are running fine)
.............oztules
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Is the label on the transformer blacked out in pen?
The 8000W unit should have two transformers.
The 6000W unit had two 3000W transformers.
The variants of transformers used to be 3000W for the 3000, 6000 and 10000W units and 5000W for the 5000, 8000 and 15000W units.
If you bought yours on an auction that had a low price start . . . . .
Hi OTW sorry for the tardy reply, christmas and renovations and all that got in the way! my inverter was a buy it now with full 8000w labeling, and I looked at the spec and weighed it and it was the 22kg as specified!
I'm of to the shack tomorrow so I will check the labeling on the toroidal trannie and report back!
merry christmas if Applicable
aug
I only buy units either for me or for people who come to me through Cher. I pay more usually than ebay prices.
Best wishes
OTW
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well quoted 850au for a 1200 kipoint lf wow
looks like ill go pj...
i perfer to use high efficient delta with active pfc to charge my batteries...
i wont be feeding any sort of input 240v to my inverter
i try go simple for my setup...
good news you said about difference between what i thought and what is!
i will get my inverter after new year.. early tho... i will be back with my findings...
edit: kipoint trans is round.. terroidal?
i have seen old and new seems to have many additional bits
the email girl sent me a doc manual for new
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Hi!
Earlier in this thread I detailed the circuit diagram for a changeover box to switch between inverter and mains in a manner that doesn't create great voltage jumps with independant phases. Perhaps that idea might be useful in the changeover function. . . .
By using two relays which interlock so that the one cannot be energised before the other is released, and being energised on AC cannot connect until energised significantly towards the peak of the next half cycle. Whether the result is connection at the zero point I haven't measured but most certainly the equipment connected on the switched circuit seems to demonstrate no knowledge of having suffered a changeover.
Whether this would assist on the battery charging issue I've no idea - I use my unit only as an inverter.
Best wishes
OTW
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i also intend to use my inverter as inverter mode only..
my switch has not taken into account phase and cycle time.
its a simple dual terminal wired to the power board, and inverter on 1st set, mains 2nd set.
i have accidentally hammered the relay connecting it to a circit no electrical issues either.. my thaughts are caps take care of any time gaps..
i will look for your diagrams in hopes to improve saftey.
thx
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It's in this post:
http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,902.msg10541.html#msg10541
The manual changeover switches are break before make, with a neutral position, but changing on those at random points in the cycle aways caused disturbance to appliances whereas the automatic switch gives no more than a momentary glitch.
Best wishes
OTW
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a simple thought comes to mind.
with a relay. when power is disconnected the output is opposite and spikes as for the need for a diode.
your comments regards shutdown inverter seems something similar...
if so i imagine inverter shutdown may have a spike worthwhile some1 with scope should check..
as i mentioned i will use inverter as ac output never as batt chrg. so will be always on!
im getting xcited for this new inverter..
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No...... no diodes on the output.... it's ac not dc, so there are no inductive spikes you can quench like that.
The h bridge effectively clamps that too I think.
I have had 8kw loads cut off by o/load relay I had on the output, and the inverter does not care... at all.
It is not back EMF from the load that is the problem.... it is the inrush current in the primary of the torroid that stinks things up. It is worst when this happens at zero crossing, if reconnection happens at the peak of the wave, then no problem ( opposite to gut feelings I know)
If you never use the AC inputs, you should have no problems with what you want to do. You can shut loads on and off all day, and have no impact.
The inverter will not care if you auto switch like OTW or manual switch...zero cross switch or any other option...... it has the surge ability to cope regardless. Even if the loads appear as a short circuit due to timing of waves... it won't care. LF inverters are very tough... hf inverters.... not so much.
I was running a threephase 3kw VFD all day yesterday ( driving a desalinator), and no problems with that load either... (poor power factor due to topping the crests of the waves, then leaves the rest of the wave intact....... distortion aplenty).
...................oztules
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One of my transformers is missing!
Here are a few pics of my "8000w lfpsw 120" powerjack i bought early december.
It seems to be one short in the transformer dept!
Augustus
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I wish I was surprised :(
I have to assume you "won" an auction.
They really try hard to shoot themselves in the foot.
At least it will start anything you throw at it, but your constant power should be less than 2kw to keep it cool enough in operation..... it will still be a very useful unit.
...............oztules
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Oh dear. That was what I experienced a couple of years ago and why since then I only buy through Cher and advise other people to do likewise.
There is an upside to this, however . . . If you buy a genuine unit through Cher - it won't be as cheap as you think you can get it on ebay - then you can use the transformer of this unit in parallel with the two in the new unit and then get a happy 5kw output.
Best wishes
OTW
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Hi Oztules and otw
I am in the process of starting a paypal dispute over this, I have several sellers spec of this model powerjack that say that the 8000w inverter does indeed have two transformers and that the seller has issued an obscured warranty number, so Ill see what happens!
regards
Augustus
ps does anyone have an official powerjack photo showing the two trannies?
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Hi,
I bought 2 PJ's early this year on fleebay auction. A 10000 and an 8000. I paid very little for them so I expected not a lot.
My 8000 has 2 small toroid's inside and they are small.
The 10000 had 2 largish toroid's still to small in my opinion, but the case width limits the size. I dismantled the 10000 and stripped for spares, boards, 4 fans, etc etc. I took one toroid apart and used its copper and mylar on a OzInverter .
The PJ's were cheap.
It seems to me that PowerJack sell good and bad. The company China based that I purchased are no longer around and checking with other fleebay powerjack sellers they all seem to disappear, and those that used to sell PJ boards do not seem to know what they are talking about.
So I conclude that their are Chinese's business folk that buy a cheap batch of Inverters from PJ and retail them to make a fast buck.
Sad really as PowerJack seem to shoot themselves in the foot in the long term.
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It would be interesting to see the photos of the 8000 with two small toroids . . .
Best wishes
OTW
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OTW,
Here you are. The PJ 8000, 48vdc 230ac its torroids are 160mm dia full wound, total weight of 29kgs......
The Core sitting on the case is from the PJ 10000, its 160mm dia and weighs 7.5kgs. When it was fully wound it filled the inside width of 195mm of the PJ case. (but sadly still to small for my OzInverter).
Sorry, I only seem to be able to do one photo per post, French blocking site so I am using a German Proxy server...........
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And.....
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Hi Oztules and otw
I am in the process of starting a paypal dispute over this, I have several sellers spec of this model powerjack that say that the 8000w inverter does indeed have two transformers and that the seller has issued an obscured warranty number, so Ill see what happens!
regards
Augustus
ps does anyone have an official powerjack photo showing the two trannies?
Hi all, my problem has been fixed by the seller who sent me a replacement two transformer inverter, i paid the $ difference without having to return the single trannie one!
Perhaps they will re-do their specs to point out the differences!
Augustus
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Good outcome!.... now you have three transformers you can use as per OTW has done.
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three transformers you can use
Yes
I wrote to him yesterday a summary possibly helpful to others
As it is, a 8000LF unit will give 2kw happily all day, 3kw for 20 minutes at a time and towards 4kw for a short period. WIth the extra transformer this will then be 4.5kW for 20 minutes or so and 6kW for a short period.
One simply wires the low voltage side of the transformer in parallel with the low voltage side of the other transformers of the two transformer unit, and one then puts one side of the high voltage transformer connected to the neutral side of the inverter output and then you measure the voltage between the Live of the inverter and the other side of the extra transformer. If this voltage is over 400V, then it's out of phase so reverse the wires. Do so and check it again. It might not be the same. Mine, from memory was around 15volts less. So I wound, from memory, 17 turns of 2.5mm wire around the transformer, and then you have to measure whether the voltage is added or subtracted and you want it to add. Adjust the added turns until the voltage of the extra transformer is equalised with that of the inverter, and then you can simply wire it permanently and have the facility of the extra capacity. I wired in the thermostatic switch monitoring the transformer temperature retaining the fan. From memory I think I incorporated in addition the top control board, applying the power supply DC to the board using the fan output on that connected retaining the second existing fan.
There are probably more details in my posts above
Best wishes
OTW
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And many thaks for all your help and that easy to follow description OTW
Augusts
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Good outcome!.... now you have three transformers you can use as per OTW has done.
Hi oztules, ill give otws 3 trannie mod a go, when i have a cosenting adult engineer doen on holidays next week!
Although it sounds really simple i don't see myself needing that much power even long term as our house was buitlt from the start to be off grid and modern technologies have made it even easier, we run a 24v 160litre fridge freezer so no losses through the inverter and the new 32'' telly dvd uses 39-42 watts, lpg and solar heating etc etc.
We only have 600amps of 2v cells at 24volts, but it seems to be more than enough, even in winter.
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Well in that case . . . you're better off actually using the one with just one transformer! If you put in the choke as suggested you'll have the very minimum of power loss and a very efficient system.
Best wishes
OTW
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Thanks OTW
We'll mount the double trannie inverter, but I'll put my recently Aquired E choke on the single one first and measure the outcome.
regards
Augustus
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For your use, depending on losses permissable, your smaller inverter may wall be better. Even with the choke, the more transformers, the more the losses.
In England we have had record rain - and that means a corresponding lack of sun. I've had my offgrid system only performing at 50% for three of the last four months and not at all in the last month. Now the days are getting longer I'm putting it back on 50% again. I use a time switch to switch over the house circuits to the battery bank system and at the moment alternate the hours in daylight and draw in the evenings continuously, but such darkness is the hazard of solar systems
Best wishes
OTW
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Hi OTW I'm a few degrees further south than Oztules, so at the moment we are getting useful sun till about 8pm.
I'm in the middle of trying to replace the slew bearing in my Hyacinth wind generator with a double bearing setup that will hopefully stop the premature wear and oscillation of, and noise and vibration from the blades in high winds.
It is only 300 watts but it looks nice and does top up the batteries at night.
I hope to have it back up before winter hits.
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Got my Powerjack, LF 3000
It is fairly good, used it overnight seems to worked fine.
today, a fairly hot day I am having a issue of the system shutdown and buzzzzzz constant noise (a buzzer.. not an electrical buzz hahaha)
so i guess 1 of 2 things,
overvoltage or overheat
I have just set voltage to equalise at 15v and not shutting down.. must be undercoating
I have also noticed shutdown was at 14.6-14.7v max seems low?
anyways
I have a small switch on the rear and it makes fan stay on,
I have just switched the fan on and after close to an hour I turned it off after running fine for an hour..
EDIT: OK, It just turned off again!.. and I forced the fan on again and it has fairly warm air coming out, wouldn't call it hot!!
maybe they have a overtemp. set too low?!
My load is minimal.. like 200-300w
OK, so what can I do to solve this if I dont want the fan running 24/7
I can buy a small relay thermo switch on ebay for a few $$ and wire it up myself.. will be messy and adding of a small circuit.., I would rather fix it internally
can I fix this by changing anything inside? say a resistor?
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Hi Oztules and others
Hope you don't mind me adding to your thread as this seems to be the best collection of powerjack officianados on the web. I am in the interesting position of having two identical PJ 8000w LFs each with a single transformer. Each are good for about 2000w continuous, but I really need to run at up to 3000w at times and thermal shutdown kicks in on the single unit. The two options I can see to increase the continuous output is:
1. Take the transformer out of one and put it in the other, this does look like a bit of work, and I'm not 100% on the procedure, even after reading your post above OTW, unless people know of a concise writeup somewhere? The other thing is its gonna be a very tight fit, and probably not going to take the second fan in the middle.
2. Run the inverters in parallel. As per this guys vid This looks like it could be pure genius or fiery ball of fail. Could the PJs be connected like this, and if so where to make the connections?
Any informed opinions out there on this?
Thanks in advance
Chris
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Depends how long you need the 3kw for.... however...
That video will be useless for these things... there is no intermediate stage to couple up.
So your back to just adding the second transformer.
It should/will fit... maybe the fan too.. dont remember the fan in the units with two transformers.
Simply parallel both the inputs and outputs of the transformers together... thats it. Try to use the fan as well.
They must be in phase... so use the wires carefully..... ie duplicate the original in every way.
If you hook it up with the wires reversed for some reason, it may not be pretty... depends on if the current is seen by the computer at start up.
So you can rewire three of the four wires from the tranny.. 48v ones first, and one 240v one next... then turn on with the fourth wire unconnected.
When running it should have the 240v on both transformer windings..... there should be no voltage between the hanging wire and the place you expect to place it.....
............oztules
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Thanks oztules for the expertise and quick reply. So just to confirm parallel the wiring, but leave one of the 240v wires disconnected, does it matter which one, red or black? I guess not or you would have said.
And I take it leaving the 4th wire disconnected is just to confirm its wired correctly, in phase and working. And once confirmed shut down and connect the 4th wire, and power the inverter back up?
There seems enough lead on the wires to place the second transformer where it needs to go, so paralleling should be straightforward-ish. Gone are the days of buying a two transformer unit for $650 off ebay, two different sellers, two dodgy units...
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Urgh they've made the cases smaller so two trannies won't fit easily now....
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i have solved my shutting down issue,
I got from ebay a $5 thermo probe sensor and relay board and have set it at 57 degree C and shut off at 10 degree difference (lower)
I added a fan to blow onto the terroid as that is whats getting hot not the fets
i wired that to my switch on the rear which forces the fans on!
so now the switch turns on the fans at my set temperature
i've seen the default cooling solution comes on, but at low speed and it doesnt provide enough cooling for the terroid. so adding a fan and my sensor works better
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Seen a recent example of this yesterday.
A fellow bought a little 5kw 24v unit, and it o/heats if left on low power running only a fridge. .
Will go in the next few days and mount the thing vertically to get some air flow without the fan.... their algorithm is down right stupid..
...............oztules
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Hello to all, I am new to this interesting thread, I have read it from beguining more than one year ago, to the end some days ago. As you can see, English is not my language, I learned a bit in school about 50 years ago. I live in Guatemala, (Central America).
I have installed a solar system in my holiday place, where there is no electricity and is located in the jungle to 7 hours from the city where I live.
The system consist of 2Kw solar panels, two 40A MPPT controllers, 15840Wh @ 24 Volts Gel batteries , and the PJ inverter. My loads are only a fridge, 3 electric fans, some light bulbs... and a electric shower pulling about 1900W for short periods of 5 minutes or less, three or four times a day.
I have 3 PJ inverters, two 6000w and one 8000w, 24VDC/110VAC. I only use one at a time and have the others as backup. This inverters can carry the loads without any problem. The three inverters are fitted with the miracoluos Oztules E ferrite core with 9 turns of flat 20 square mm. enameled wire, and the idle current is only 0,4 to 0,5 amps ( wondeful).
Temperature here is 24C to 32C all year arround but the real feel is much more due to the high air humidity can easily reach 95% in some parts of the year.
As it is a very distant place, I can only go one 5 or 6 times a year, so when I get back to town, left turned off the inverter. the problem is that when I come again, sometimes the inverter does not want to start... and it is time to put to work the backup inverter, then I pull the inverter and let in the sun two or three hours to make it get warm and after that the inverter comes to life again, this has happened more than 4 times in last year. But the last time the inverter was burned in the middle of the night with only two LED bulbs lit, 10 wats each.
Anyone has an idea of what to do?.
I have sprayed the control and main boards with WD40 (water displacement fluid similar to CRC) but it seems no to be helpful
Any help will be very grateful ;D
----------- Eduardo
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Oz
Any ideas on heftier Fets to push more power thru the toroids or more toroids for higher watts?
I'm sure the caps and resistors would have to change. Obsessing over this idea OCD Is rampant!
I have the PJ shown below
Before I haul everything to the Philippines I want my experimentation done and spare parts on hand
Regards To All!
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I have just received the 15kw 110/220v split-phase power jack. I have many questions :D. I am currently reading this thread and others trying to find everything. Will ask if I don't find the answers.
so far, it seems the #1 thing I should do is grab a 65mm E core to add to this. (or maybe 2 since this is split phase? i'm not sure)
this one has 3 toroids in it. all the wiring seemed secure. am about to power it up as is.
here are some pictures:
(http://i.imgur.com/6H1YpTD.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/vpEldim.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/40WEAMB.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/X0AAGkK.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/cbWFwst.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/wK5oLS7.jpg)
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Just wanted to say thanks to you Oztules and OTW for your knowledge in this thread. Based on your info I added a second torroid to our 8000W PJ. The only bit I got stuck on was how to measure the AC voltages coming out of the second torroid to make sure it was in phase with the other. In the end I attached the AC outputs of the two torroids, started the PJ, heard the distinctive buzz of out of phase, shutdown immediately, reversed the output wires of the second torroid, powered up to 240v output.
Due to the cases being too small for a second torroid, I emptied out one case of all but the torroid and the cooling fan, ported holes into the top of the case for the torroid wires, stacked the working 8000ww PJ on top with holes ported into the bottom. Lastly ported a hole between the two cases for the cooling fan wires and connected the fans in parallel. So essentially have one PJ case as a windtunnel with a torroid in it, connected to a working PJ inverter stacked on top.
Now happily runs up to 3kw all day if need be. Only issue is attaching the second torroid is causing the overvoltage shutdown issue again, despite having already rectified it with the 1meg resistor in parallel. So just got some 5.6v zeners to change out the 1meg resistor, hopefully that fixes it.
Only other thing is I have unsuccessfully tried to run the PJ as a battery charger when batts got very low the other day. Couldn't for the life of me get it to work. Need to do some more reading there.
Anyway thanks again gents, and just wanted to add my experience for what it's worth to what is the most informative PJ thread on the entire www.
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I am trying to us a 15kw power jack to power up my grid tie inverter (6.6kw). It syncs up, and starts running, but then gives an external event, and it shuts down. I am connected to a large battery bank, which is only half charged, so it is not overcharging. I have had it running up to 20 minutes, but usually it only runs for one or two minutes.
Also before the grid tie inverter shuts off, the lights flicker, like the grid tie inverter is testing against anti-islanding????
The grid tie inverter is a Delta Solivia 6.6 kw, and the output did get up to 6kw for a while. I am hoping someone has some suggestions on how to keep the grid tie inverter running...?
Thanks
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I'm guessing your probably way under transformered.
Suspect over current sense is shutting you down on high power, and temp on the lower powers.
Your 20 min run will have been at lower power than full bore.
At 6kw they may give you only 12 seconds or so unless modified.... with those trannies... don't modify.
The powerjack will o/heat quickly with sustained high power... it does not have the transformer to do it for long. thats it's major weakness. Also if the 3 turn filter is not there ... it will exacerbate the problems faster.
You may be best to lower your expectations, or build a big transformer to go with it as a few of us have done.
6kw hour after hour.... the transfromer will be BIG.
...............oztules
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Thanks, but I am not sure that is the issue I am seeing now. Not that it is not an issue.
The reason I think it is something else is because when first starting out, it ran for about 30 seconds (at only 1200 watts with 800 being used to run the home). This happened several times, then when it made the long run, the sun came out in the middle of it, and it went up to 6kw, at which time the fans turned on, but it kept going for 5 or 10 minutes at the full 6kw of output from the grid tie inverter. It actually did not turn off until more clouds came out, and the output went down to about 2000 watts.
I could easily disconnect have the solar array to max out at 3kw, but like I said it was cloudy, and only putting out about 1200 watts when it kept shutting down. It was the grid tie inverter that was shutting down, not the power jack. What do you think the maximum the powerjack 15000 can handle?
Thanks
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Doing some more testing today, and the grid tie inverter goes into failure mode before it even starts putting out any power. It does go into normal mode at times, but not always, and so far today no more than 10 seconds up to 1000 watts.
Do you think the power jack is not producing clean enough power for the grid tie inverter? The interesting thing is that the lights flicker just before it goes into failure mode, so the grid tie inverter must be doing something when this happens. The lights don't flicker when the grid tie inverter is not turned on.
I will do some more testing.
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I misunderstood, I thought the pj was turning of not the grid tie..
My history with this is that the pj has way superior hz and power than the grid here. . The output filters on your grid tie should clean that up even further.
The flickering lights makes me wonder about connections, or the grid tie itself... I suspect the grid tie.
back off the panel number and try with 1 or 2 kw of power first....it sounds like it is not syncing nicely.
In that application, the pj will handle 10kw bursts and maybe 4kw constant. Transformer is the limiting factor here.
.........oztules
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OZ
I read mention of cooling fan problems and I'm wondering if the power consumption of having cooling fans on constant is too much. newer PJ's have a switch to turn them on to stay on but that may consume too much battery if your off grid.
my idea is to set up a small watt panel, mppt and battery capable of running the fans completely thru the night, factoring in for your longest night, independant of your main system. you could just cool the hell out of any inverter. in my case i have 12 hours night all year long and have moved the equipment into an air conditioned space but I run the cooling fans constantly.
btw an ebay seller in the US has loads of pj parts including toroids. if anyone needs the search i can find it.
Regards All!
Newbee
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I misunderstood, I thought the pj was turning of not the grid tie..
My history with this is that the pj has way superior hz and power than the grid here. . The output filters on your grid tie should clean that up even further.
The flickering lights makes me wonder about connections, or the grid tie itself... I suspect the grid tie.
back off the panel number and try with 1 or 2 kw of power first....it sounds like it is not syncing nicely.
In that application, the pj will handle 10kw bursts and maybe 4kw constant. Transformer is the limiting factor here.
.........oztules
Yes, it feels like a syncing problem. Also it does not fully shut off, just gives a fault, and then says syncing instead of normal operation. So for some reason it is not staying in sync.....
I ran a test today where I just plugged the powerjack inverter directly into the AC line of the grid tie inverter with no load at all, or anything else connected, and it made it even worse. In 20 minutes it only synced once for about 3 seconds, then faulted. watching the Voltage, and frequency as displayed on the grid tie inverter, it never fluctuated, but stayed perfect at 230V and 59.9-60.0 HZ.
I have looked up the error codes in the inverter History, but the manual does not even say what they mean, so I will need to contact the manufacturer to get some idea as to why it is giving the fault.
Next I will try it with less panels connected. It will be more work going less than 3kw, because there are two 3kw strings connected to the inverter. But I have a feeling it is some anti-islanding safty feature that is getting triggered for some reason.
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Solarnewbee,
Don't bother yourself too much, as for all the noise the fan makes, it only uses 2-3 watts, so thats not going to bother any battery bank in the slightest... thats .2 amps@ 12v or .05 amps @48v....... sort of makes it pointless complications
Some folks here would like the site that sells pj parts I expect.
David,
to have the lights flash, it would seem like a direct short during sync.... suggest another grid tie to test, as it sounds like it is inconsistent..... even a possible noisy internal hv fuse in the inverter may do it... beyond that I can't really help.
I have had over 100 amps coming back from the grid ties ( 48v system) without issue, and three connected to it at the same time without issue.. it should not bother the PJ. at all other than heat.
...oztules
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@ davidwillis.
What you are dealing with can be frustrating. I spent a lot of time trying to
troubleshoot a symptom a lot like yours. There are probably many possible causes for this problem
and the error codes, if you can find documentation, dont always point to exact problem.
Mine would run any length of time and go offline at random. It works perfectly now. Never shuts down. Grid tie runs just as good tied to PJ as utility grid.
The things i changed involved matching the PJ voltage output in center of grid tie voltage max min parameters and giving pj the battery power it needed to regulate it. The pj battery input now runs tight 25.4vdc min to 28.0vdc max. If i load battery bank to pull voltage lower than 25vdc then my grid tie will still go offline. I am guessing but this might be caused by pj wave distortion since i altered voltage feedback to drive primary harder to target 239VAC instead of 224VAC where it was designed. This left less headroom for low battery voltage which in my case was solved by higher battery voltage in LFP batteries. This could also have been solved by adding turns to secondaries of toroids. I didnt have luxury of adjusting gti parameters. (it was US gti emerson spv)
I only have single gti/6000lf pj setup and during normal day if gti is putting out more than loads you can see a flicker every second. This is anti island stuff and pj has to fill in. When loads are greater than solar you dont notice flicker. In short Battery bank voltage and stability along with output voltage matching made the difference.
Good luck with that!
Lighthunter
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Thanks...
That is interesting. I am currently using a lithium battery bank, which is sitting at 22.8V. So maybe that is the problem, however my AC voltage is sitting at 234. This seems like a good voltage, since the grid tie inverter is rated for 211-264VAC. But I wonder if there is something else that is effected by lower voltage? Right now I have the range of my battery bank go from 20-25.5 VDC. I wonder if I should add another battery and put it up to 23.5 to 29VDC? That would not be too hard to do, and I could easily test it by charging up the bank to 25VDC and see if it syncs, That could be why it was working better when the grid tie inverter was putting out 6kw forcing the battery voltage up to 24VDC.
Also apparently there are more settings on the inverter that have different parameters, such as for HECO Grid (Hawaiian electric). I may try some of those and see if they just happen to work...
Keep the ideas coming... Something will work I am sure of it...
I will update you with what I find.
Thanks!!!!
oztules,
Thanks, Are you talking about internal hv fuse in the powerjack inverter or the grid tie inverter?
The grid tie inverter is working perfect when connected to the grid, but not when connected to the powerjack. Also the powerjack works just fine by itself (at least as far as I can tell). It just does not seem like they play together very well.
@ davidwillis.
What you are dealing with can be frustrating. I spent a lot of time trying to
troubleshoot a symptom a lot like yours. There are probably many possible causes for this problem
and the error codes, if you can find documentation, dont always point to exact problem.
Mine would run any length of time and go offline at random. It works perfectly now. Never shuts down. Grid tie runs just as good tied to PJ as utility grid.
The things i changed involved matching the PJ voltage output in center of grid tie voltage max min parameters and giving pj the battery power it needed to regulate it. The pj battery input now runs tight 25.4vdc min to 28.0vdc max. If i load battery bank to pull voltage lower than 25vdc then my grid tie will still go offline. I am guessing but this might be caused by pj wave distortion since i altered voltage feedback to drive primary harder to target 239VAC instead of 224VAC where it was designed. This left less headroom for low battery voltage which in my case was solved by higher battery voltage in LFP batteries. This could also have been solved by adding turns to secondaries of toroids. I didnt have luxury of adjusting gti parameters. (it was US gti emerson spv)
I only have single gti/6000lf pj setup and during normal day if gti is putting out more than loads you can see a flicker every second. This is anti island stuff and pj has to fill in. When loads are greater than solar you dont notice flicker. In short Battery bank voltage and stability along with output voltage matching made the difference.
Good luck with that!
Lighthunter
-
Lighthunter is onto it I think.
PJ is not designed for lithium, and the transformers I have found to be under done on the secondaries or over done on the primary... so low bat voltage will cause trouble for the pj... add secondary turns or delete some/a primary turn... secondary is easier.
I only use galvanically isolated inverters, so have no idea to the foibles of HF units... none what so ever.
............oztules
-
Quote " AC voltage is sitting at 234. This seems like a good voltage, since the grid tie inverter is rated for 211-264VAC."
I remember trooubleshooting from this exact point of view. Over and over i convinced myself....the pj output voltage is right on even through large load surges. It had me convinced that the problem had to be with GTI or wiring. Until i changed battery bank and the setup ran perfectly.
The grid tie faults didnt necessarily correspond with low battery voltage either, so i never figured it out that way.
From your voltages im guessing 7S LFP. If thats the case, theres an extremely good chance 8S will solve your problem. The PJ runs great on 8S. You can also change winding numbers and achieve this but another viewpoint to keep in mind is... if you can run the 24v inverter at 26 you will drive current and heat down and increase load capacity and less stress for your pj inverter.
I doubt that changing parameters in GTI will help. I think what happens is the pj output wave gets clipped at the peaks causing distortion that bothers the GTI. Unless you change winding numbers you will need to increase battery voltage or one other possibility is to lower pj output voltage by altering feedback and adjusting GTI parameters to follow. Of course this might affect efficiency of GTI.
I just about put my GTI on ebay but after connected to pj with 8series LFP i wouldnt sell it for 3times what i paid..$300.
You may already have battery monitor/management but if not and you want cheap i would check out CellLog8S $35 gets you ability to record everything that happens to your batteries and you can choose your own emergency shutdown limits with individual cell monitoring, only caveat is unequal drain but theres a fix.
Oztules if i would have spent the money for a proper size AGM or trojan fla no doubt i would never had a problem. How many AH of this type would i have needed to cover 2kw loads during clouds and stay above 24? I have so appreciated your thoughts and comments. Many of us are indebted to you and wouldnt have the equipment we do without your help. Thankyou!
Lighthunter
-
Thank you so much for the information.
I have read through this thread a while back, but most is over my head. What is a 8S?
Also, how high can the voltage go on the pj? I am thinking about running the voltage from 27 to 31.5V if the pj can take that voltage, and if it does not put my AC voltage over the limit of the Grid tie inverter.
the CellLog8S looks interesting, but why does it cause unequal drain, and what is the fix?
I really hope the voltage is the problem, and it sounds like it is...
Thanks again.
-
David, at least 30v, and if you want more then use the 5v6 across the 10m resistor.. then it is unlimited
Light, I like FLA as they are cheap and forgiving. lithium is better at everything except price and longevity in case of over charge.... so I stay with fla.
How long for is the question.... and 2kw@24v is 80 amps approx....staying above 24 would be a big bank, but better to get the tranny right, and let it sink under at that kind of current to drive at 23v-24v or so... battery curves will tell you.
.............oztules
-
Antman... try this http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,780.msg7498.html#msg7498
Use 5r6 instead for the gates, and put a reverse diode across them.
....oztules
-
Hi David :),
7S and 8S refers to 7 or 8 series cell. Sometimes you see a battery pack.
referred to as 3S2P meaning 3 cells in series and 2 in parallel. (3x 1cell voltage.
And 2x 1 cell AH capacity. LFP or Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) is.
the kind i have and the voltage needs to stay between 2.6v/cell minimum to 3.6v/cell.
maximum. I have mine set to run from 3.1v to 3.5v but im not concerned about.
capacity. I'm usually only using top1/2 of capacity sometimes a lot less. My needs
are mainly concerned with leveling the variableness of clouds so my AC output watts
stay even to run loads without switching loads on/off. In your application if you have.
a large AH bank then you may want to use more of the usable range. You can do it by
using voltage triggers for full/empty battery but its critical. You absolutely must keep.
All cells above 2 volts or the cell will be junk. There isnt much capacity left below 2.8v
So better to stay away from 2 v as far as possible. The Full mark isnt as critical but 3.5v is
mostly full. Ive read that LiFePO4 chemistry is more forgiving about overvoltage than under.
Either one should be avoided. The tricky part is you are using these cells in a series configuration and the capacity of each cell is slightly different they always will be. If one cell gets full before
the other 7 and you are monitoring bank voltage, that cell can reach 4 volts in seconds with 60Amps of charge current, (ive watched it on bar graph) . So you have 2 choices, either top balance and stay away from bottom or bottom balance and stay away from top. You cant really do both though racers and vehicle applications do this with fancy circuitry but they also have higher failure rates. Balancing allows all cells to reach the full or empty threshold at the same time which allows the use of bank/pack voltage to indicate charge level. Even after balancing and calibrating voltage triggers its best to have a monitor that can detect a problem and shut off chg/dischg.
The CellLog8S unequal drain has 2 possible fixes that i know of, one is to connect a switch with lead wires to board. (jumper works too if you dont need to connect to computer) or you make buffer with 2 quad op amps configured as unity gain. I will post details.
I really like the record feature as i dont have balancer boards yet, i do it manually. The celllog allows me to see how each cell is performing through the day and if a balance problem exists. I also use it to (teach/program) my controller voltage setpoints.
Best of luck to you sounds like you have a great setup. As oztules said, pj will allow 30v for a few beeping seconds before shutdown without modification he refers to. Ive not had to modify mine but it seems many have.
Lighthunter
-
CellLog even drain info
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=20142.
Cheers ,
Lighthunter
-
Oztules, regarding FLA size. So changing the secondary turns on pj
in a sense allows smaller bank size for short duration high load... clever.
I guess i didnt realize that would have fixed the problem. Thanks!
Lighthunter
-
For some reason I was thinking you were talking about modifying the pj.
I am running 28 100ah LiFePO4 batteries 7s4p. I personally like the bottom balancing, and balanced them all at 2.5V. Then I just have the system set to stop charging at 3.5v, and stop the load at 3.0V. I have used this setup for years with no BMS and I love it. I do check individual cell voltage at times, but have never had any go out of range.
I could go with a 8s, but that would put my voltage range at 24V to 28V, since the 24V is under 25.5, it sounds like that may cause an issue so I was thinking running 9s to put the voltage at 27 to 31.5. I know when I was playing around with some FLA batteries it got the voltage up above 30V, but I don't remember exactly what it was before the AC voltage went too high and shut off the grid tie inverter. I may have to play around with it a little to see which works best.
Hi David :),
7S and 8S refers to 7 or 8 series cell. Sometimes you see a battery pack.
referred to as 3S2P meaning 3 cells in series and 2 in parallel. (3x 1cell voltage.
And 2x 1 cell AH capacity. LFP or Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) is.
the kind i have and the voltage needs to stay between 2.6v/cell minimum to 3.6v/cell.
maximum. I have mine set to run from 3.1v to 3.5v but im not concerned about.
capacity. I'm usually only using top1/2 of capacity sometimes a lot less. My needs
are mainly concerned with leveling the variableness of clouds so my AC output watts
stay even to run loads without switching loads on/off. In your application if you have.
a large AH bank then you may want to use more of the usable range. You can do it by
using voltage triggers for full/empty battery but its critical. You absolutely must keep.
All cells above 2 volts or the cell will be junk. There isnt much capacity left below 2.8v
So better to stay away from 2 v as far as possible. The Full mark isnt as critical but 3.5v is
mostly full. Ive read that LiFePO4 chemistry is more forgiving about overvoltage than under.
Either one should be avoided. The tricky part is you are using these cells in a series configuration and the capacity of each cell is slightly different they always will be. If one cell gets full before
the other 7 and you are monitoring bank voltage, that cell can reach 4 volts in seconds with 60Amps of charge current, (ive watched it on bar graph) . So you have 2 choices, either top balance and stay away from bottom or bottom balance and stay away from top. You cant really do both though racers and vehicle applications do this with fancy circuitry but they also have higher failure rates. Balancing allows all cells to reach the full or empty threshold at the same time which allows the use of bank/pack voltage to indicate charge level. Even after balancing and calibrating voltage triggers its best to have a monitor that can detect a problem and shut off chg/dischg.
The CellLog8S unequal drain has 2 possible fixes that i know of, one is to connect a switch with lead wires to board. (jumper works too if you dont need to connect to computer) or you make buffer with 2 quad op amps configured as unity gain. I will post details.
I really like the record feature as i dont have balancer boards yet, i do it manually. The celllog allows me to see how each cell is performing through the day and if a balance problem exists. I also use it to (teach/program) my controller voltage setpoints.
Best of luck to you sounds like you have a great setup. As oztules said, pj will allow 30v for a few beeping seconds before shutdown without modification he refers to. Ive not had to modify mine but it seems many have.
Lighthunter
-
Wow, i see. Ok so the number of batteries you would need to go to 8S would be.
a considerable expense. Personally i dont think pj could regulate AC
output voltage very well with 9S thats 31.5v when full im thinking AC voltage.
Would go high and turn off gti, then again it might work great. So far 8S is
working flawless im not sure what you see as problem there but i might be.
missing something. When i wrote 25.5v minimum for my bank voltage im using a different.
GTI and only 40AH LiFe. The size of your bank is going to allow pj to be less sensitive. If your bank is low then when GTI runs voltage will pick up quick.
If 8S wasnt enough you could always wind a few turns on the pj toroid and add to.
secondary. Since you have an established pack adding new cells is a bit of a chore
anyway. Shucks maybe adding the turns to pj toroid would be your quickest painfree.
solution. The holes are already open on those and i think you could add turns on top without.
disturbing original windings. Sounds like you have some good options/choices to remedy.
problem.
LH
-
David, with 6kw solar and 400AH 24v bank you could say goodbye to.
the grid. Ours 1/3 the size is knocking $25.00 off our electric bill, 5-12kw/day.
Nice, are you using
trackers too?
LH
-
This is actually my friends system that I am helping with. The Grid tie system has taken his power bill down to just the monthly charge of $12 or so. He actually lost 100 kwh when they did they zero everything out each year. The idea with the batteries is to provide backup power when the grid goes out. This should supply enough power to run his fridge freezer, and hid kitchen appliances. Even more when the sun is out. He is not using trackers.
I have a smaller grid tie system that I have been running on my home. It is a 4.8kw grid tie system with a 48V pj 10,000. I am running the batteries with 16s4p configuration with no problems, but I have a much older grid tie inverter. I have run my entire home off grid for a few days with this, but since I have a zero power bill with the grid tie hooked up (in the state I live in my credit can pay for all fees, as opposed to my friend who lives in a different state), I use the grid and save the batteries.
David, with 6kw solar and 400AH 24v bank you could say goodbye to.
the grid. Ours 1/3 the size is knocking $25.00 off our electric bill, 5-12kw/day.
Nice, are you using
trackers too?
LH
-
we tried it today with the battery voltage at 26V, but that did not fix the issue.
The Grid tie inverter is syncing and starting, but shuts down again after a minute.
-
Does the pj have the inductor in it... if not it is lucky to run at all... after that I have no idea with hf inverters
.....but you do need the inductor I have found.
.........oztules
-
Does the pj have the inductor in it... if not it is lucky to run at all... after that I have no idea with hf inverters
.....but you do need the inductor I have found.
.........oztules
How do I tell if it has the inductor? Can I tell by the idle power consumption, or is that something else?
-
You would know as you would have had to put it in there...... thats the E core with the three turns.
In some PJ, they have tried to copy that a bit by using big ferrite rings around the transformer leads.
Without these things, the idle will be poor, and the noise in the line will probably be able to confuse the frequency sensing of the grid tie.
............oztules
-
I didn't put one in, but I think it has the ferrite rings.... Idle power is under 1amp if I remember correctly.
-
Then thats not the problem... I'm currently testing an aerosharp back feeding on a 8010 converted a 24v PJ5000... works perfectly.
Transformer seems very much cooler.... it can idle for hours and there is no discernible heat..very impressive... the board needs no mods for 24v or 48v.
[attachimg=1]
One thing different, the board does not have the same dynamic range, so had to remove three turns from the tansformer to allow it to have good voltage stability under load at lower voltages 22v etc
............oztules
-
Anybody know if the pj mos boards are same from 8kw up to 15000kw, just asking because they are selling 8kw 12v mos boards on eBay and hoping to use them for a 48 volt pj main board.
Thanks,
Billy
-
replied to this on the wrong thread....
Where is the address of these please Billy.
...........oztules
-
I tried it again this time with 29V. It didn't help....
I am going to have to try his inverter with my system and see if it works, if it will not work with my grid tie inverter, then we will know there is something wrong with his pj, because I have never had a problem running a pj inverter with my grid tie inverter.
-
Oztules,
I think they took them off now, dr.powerjack on ebay had them on yesterday, i'm going to keep searching for them,
as soon as find I'll let you know.
billy
-
Oztules,
Found them here it is. http://www.ebay.com/itm/262326559176 this is for the 5kw but I did see the 8kw ones.
billy
-
only good if you have the later model PJ.. no good on it's own..
...............oztules
-
ok
here are the 8kw mos boards http://www.ebay.com/itm/262327999990
billy
-
only good if you have the later model PJ.. no good on it's own..
...............oztules
Hi Oztules,
I just got a 10000W powerjack, I haven't tested yet but I saw that fix you put on the first page for the idle issue. Just wanted to ask if you already placed a tutorial or something for some novice like me (maybe someone already asked) this is a long thread, but if you did, I'll try to find it.
Thanks.
-
All the information is there somewhere... but finding it will be time consuming....
So ask what ever you want, but the crux of it is you need a big ecore ferrite, that you can wind 3-4 turns of heavy wire onto, and place it in series with either one of the heavy wires going to the transformer from the small heat sinks.
............oztules
-
OZ!
good day!, Not sure of ebay.au but ebay.com in US has loads of PJ parts coming on, great prices on toroids. I have a source for other electronics from a reputable source in shenzen china if anyone wants to know. I'm sure they have mosfets etc much cheaper than PJ is selling as in $1 for several. hope that helps out folks.
newbee
-
Heres link for 10 48 volt, cheaper than the 8kw/48.......
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10KW-DC48V-Power-Mos-board-for-10kw-LF-PSW-power-inverter-dc-48v-ac110v-220v-/262328046087?hash=item3d13f85207:g:Tf4AAOSwmmxW4OZW
Hope it helps...
Bidding on the inverters is the cheapest way to get them if u have the time and patience..... Bid what you feel is the max you would pay for one is and see if u win it.... I just bought a 8kw pj for 227.00 US delivered............. Be careful and read all specs.... What u bid is what u pay....
Frank.
-
Hi Oztules, regarding post 414 " only good if you have the later model PJ.. no good on it's own..
...............oztule"
Im just not following, hope you dont mind sharing your thoughts
as to why the 48v 10kw power bd wouldnt work with older pj or egs002.
Thanks!!
LH
-
I have posted these pics before.....
PJ changed there design of boards. From around 2013/14 they started using sub boards on the new main board that just had the MosFets on and the matching resistors, and a led. These will bolt on to the Heatsink.
I can only guess that PJ went down a more substantial connection process, as its getting the assembler to use a bit of skill to assemble each FET and solder correctly, and getting enough copper around those FET's.
The old board and the new bolt on boards.
-
That makes sense, thanks for info on that Clockman.
LH
-
I understand that the 8000 LF unit now is supplied with one transformer rather than two . . . and PJ swear that the new single transformer is better than the two before and that performance is unchanged . . . They say 4000W continuous. . . .
Has anyone had experience of these new units?
By the way, in this thread I have documented a changeover switch to change house circuits from grid to offgrid. I'm now modelling the battery bank to provide a control circuit using a 500F supercapacitor and will document this on another thread.
Best wishes
OTW
-
Just an update to my issue with connecting to the grid tie system. I connected the pj to my 5kw grid tie system using 8s lithiums and my pvpowered hf inverter with zero issues. I used it in all conditions from low sun, to at noon, with loads, and no loads. I could not get it to fail, just a slight flicker in the lights when putting on a load that was more than the GTI was producing. So it looks like the problem is with the Delta Solivia GT inverter. It must be more sensitive or something.
I have a magnum MS-PAE inverter that is designed to do this and I will see if it works with the Delta Inverter...??
This is getting very frustrating.
-
David, yeah, very hard to troubleshoot. Especially if you dont know what.
The errors are, Is there any way you can get the error code info? At least.
Look up the list of possible errors and analyze each + rule out one by one.
Mine had ground fault stuff that had to be satisfied, L1-N parameter N-L2
, and L1-L2. might not hurt to take the delta solivia and swap it with your HF
Inverter to see if it works better in that environment??? Who knows maybe
He has a load that has an arcing switch or connection in it. That will cause
em to go offline.
Good luck!
LH
-
The most bombproof of inverters have large transformers in them. The old Sunnyboy for instance. These have a significant advantage over the HF units . . . The HF units do not provide isolation between mains and panels whereas the big transformer ones do so. As a result the HF errors are set to be very sensitive to "ground leaks", measuring the impedance to ground. The Sunnyboy merely shows an error light and keeps on working.
I use thin film panels in places, which require negative DC to be grounded - so the Sunnyboy is the only GT inverter able to run them.
Best wishes
OTW
-
David, yeah, very hard to troubleshoot. Especially if you dont know what.
The errors are, Is there any way you can get the error code info? At least.
Look up the list of possible errors and analyze each + rule out one by one.
Mine had ground fault stuff that had to be satisfied, L1-N parameter N-L2
, and L1-L2. might not hurt to take the delta solivia and swap it with your HF
Inverter to see if it works better in that environment??? Who knows maybe
He has a load that has an arcing switch or connection in it. That will cause
em to go offline.
Good luck!
LH
The problem is that there are no new error codes that show up when connected to the pj that are not also showing up when connected to the grid. And Delta does not even know what the codes mean. They say they are "internal codes" and they don't know what they are. So they seem useless. I am going to do some more testing this weekend. Thanks for the suggestions.
-
Hi David! any luck with the inverter faulting? Hope u.
find out what it is. I must admit even though mine
wasnt totally unusable, i got so frustrated with it stopping.
at will i went and bought a water heater element to match.
my panel voltage and direct connected it for nearly a year.
no inverter trouble then.... it worked great and lowered my.
power bill too. In January i decided to hook my wood fired.
boiler to the water heater so i then had a solar panel sitting.
idle which inspired me to solve the problem. Worst comes
to worst you could always buy new inverter and put the solivia.
on ebay. they have better resale valu than cars ;)
Best of luck! LH
-
No luck with is so far. It is very frustrating.
However talking with support for the grid tie inverter it sounds like this inverter may be overly sensitive. They said homes that have GFCI breakers were making the inverter reset (just like I am seeing), and they had to connect a ferrite ring on the AC output of the inverter to fix it. He was wondering if that would help in our situation, but did not know.
He also said they had a division of the company working on battery backup for the inverter. So maybe they have had requests for this, and the inverter simply will not run unless it is connected to the grid? He really did not even know, other than there is a division working on it.
Thanks
David
-
I tried connecting with a magnum inverter that is designed to ac couple with grid tie inverters, and it failed as well.
So I contacted Magnum to see what they had to say, and they said it does not work with all grid tie inverters. These are the ones they tested:
SMA inverters work
solectria inverters work
solar edge work
power one works with the newest ones. The old ones work, but its voids the warranty, and the frequency change does not shut off the inverter when the batteries are full.
micro inverters work
kaco inverters do not work
frontus inverters do not work
They have not tested my Delta inverter.... So I think it just may be the inverter does not work with ac coupling..... :'(
-
Looks like next project is for a simple grid tie unit... to go with the simple pure sine wave inverter... for off grid installations... not the real grid.
Actually I have a letter here from the chief engineer at the state level..... where he says that the BSI ( Bass Strait Islands ) SHOULD change their frequency range from .5Hz +- to ... wait for it 3-4hz +- so the head honcho decided the AS4777 is nonsense anyway... and 1 second wait time for disconnect...
Trouble is I don't have the password for my units to change them... anyone have the aerosharp pass words??? It is official I am allowed to change them... if I can.
So all the nonsense arguments that say that if you stray outside the AS4777 is deadly...... well now thats officially bollocks. A sensible range is not only possible, but now is encouraged by the authorities.
.............oztules
-
Thats amazing! somebody in power making sensible decisions?! :o
Oztules,I could really use your experienced opinion. My GTI is working perfectly and
I'd like to keep it that way. I'm now using 1 of 2 inputs at actual values 250-275dc mp ;
ocv is around 310. I just puchased 4 more 37v panels. Should I do two strings at lower.
voltage or add em in series for 400vdc mp 500vdc open circuit?
Im worried inverter may fail prematurely??
Inverter is rated 150-420 mppt 600vdc max. Pic of specs is posted.
in product support section. Its 3stage hf topology. Two seperate buck/boost input boards, a dc-dc hf transformer section and output stage with waveshaping LC. Thank you so much I value your judgment.
LH
-
I agree with the need for an inverter that will sync to another without.
all the picky stuff. Ive looked at several schematics online. The hardware seems.
possible, its the control software for the output stage that baffles me. Theres.
some pretty clever programming in there. Im not even sure how they do it? If
voltage increase is how you feed grid then it has to be over the entire waveform.
not just peaks.
If only the powerjacks had an external sync input... ::)
LH
-
I am not sure what you really want here (is it sync two inverters together? ???) two inverters synced will be really straight forward if that is what you want :-* and I have a few ideas for this. RF
Looks like next project is for a simple grid tie unit... to go with the simple pure sine wave inverter... for off grid installations... not the real grid.
.............oztules
-
RF, I mean a grid tie.
The PJ already has syncing facility in place on it's 240v input.... it just does not "unsync" nicely unless it it turned off... or use non torroids with plenty of leakage.
Interested in your inverter syncing ideas..... I have no use for it, but others may.
Light, grid tie looks pretty simple really... it can be made difficult, or be simple.... same as the pure sine wave turned out to be.
No computer required if you don't want to use one as I see it.
With computer, it is still just jump table and scaling... just like the pure wave... the only real difference is zero cross syncing, and that looks simple too.
I will go analog first I think.
Actually the 8010 chip has variable frequency, and syncing that to the mains should be simple enough... so I suspect you can build a grid tie around that pretty simply..... haven't though much about it as yet.
.............oztules
-
Mmm syncing to the grid at a glance seems pretty straight forward. In most (grid tie) inverter designs, a PLL provides the mechanism at the heart of this synchronization process. A suitable PLL a zero-crossing detector on the grid waveform and a counter to measure the time between zero crossings — adjusting inverter output as needed to match grid-voltage zero crossings .You could use a differential op amp to trigger the next cycle of the output waveform from a reference sine-wave generator. In a discrete inverter this would not be such a challange (in the real world changes in load etc.. make this not so simple). Using the EG8010 maybe an option from the data sheet
"EG8010 has two frequency modes: constant frequency mode and adjustable frequency mode. In adjustable frequency mode, EG8010 only uses unipolar modulation, and pin (20)MODSEL has to
connect to low level. Pins FRQSEL1 and FRQSEL0 set the frequency mode. In constant frequency mode, “00” outputs 50Hz frequency and “01” outputs 60Hz frequency. FRQADJ has no function in
constant mode. Pin (16) is used as VFB2 voltage feedback circuit under bipolar modulation. In adjustable frequency mode, “10” outputs frequency in range of 0-100Hz and “11” outputs frequency
in range of 0-400Hz. Pin FRQADJ adjusts the frequency as shown in figure 8.6a. Pin FRQADJ’s voltage varies from 0-5V, which is corresponding to the fundamental wave output frequency from
0-100Hz or 0-400Hz. This function accompanies with pin VVVF can be used in the single phase frequency transformer system.
[attachimg=1]
I believe that there is possiabilty here
-
Lighthunter, I have no experience with HF grid ties..... your on your own here..... my suspicion would be to go with two strings.
...........oztules
-
Hi I bourght a Powerjack inverter 8000w 24v 240v 50hz.
The main board split every mosfet transistor.
I have tried to contact them for warranty or parts.
Can anyone give me any ideas.
-
only 3 choices, fix it if you can, or buy new boards for your current unit.. thats 2 fixes. no 3 fix is if you can't get new boards then perhaps one of these will do you fine, and cheaper as well probably..... you may need to take a few turns off your transformer primary... not sure of your input voltage into your transformer.
https://world.taobao.com/item/522948147797.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7700846.0.0.xamBYI&_u=l1rmv006e1e6
there are other sites that sell them that are easier to access, aliexpress, and yocart etc.
............oztules
-
Bad joke I come across when researching my LF5000 MB failure...
Q: Why does a MOSFET always fail short-circuit ?
A: So that the opposing MOSFET is also destroyed of course ! (It must be a Murphy law thing.)
:P
grabra17 - to confirm you do have a LF pure sine unit, as opposed to a modified sine HF unit?
Diagnosing such failures is rarely simple, but before I did anything I'd want to be damn sure it wasn't "user error" (e.g. over-voltage, prolonged or transient over current, etc). I've got two 24v LF8000's and have found them to be rock-solid. Even my now board swapped LF5000 holds its own...
Otherwise as our resident wizard of OZ stated, you'll need to 1. replace MB Mosfets, or 2. swap out the boards.
So far as bang for your buck goes, I'd just get new MB/CB boards (I'd grab a backup pair while you're at it) and be done with it. Maybe try salvage the MB with a mosfet sawp later if you can be bothered?
I'll PM you contact details for Cher from Power Jack who should be able to sort you out (she has been very helpful to many of us here).
Whatever you do, don't give up!!! ;D I and many others have found these inverters to be great little front line units!
PS: my neighbours $4k Selectronic SP Pro inverter packed it in the other day... just 15 days out of warranty! ::) So don't think premature deaths are exclusive to Chinese inverters. :)
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"PS: my neighbours $4k Selectronic SP Pro inverter packed it in the other day... just 15 days out of warranty! ::) So don't think premature deaths are exclusive to Chinese inverters. :)"
Yes The man up on the hill with the AWP mill, had two mother boards replaced in the first few months of buying his $10k inverter .
In the finish they replaced the unit completely ... good service, but when remote, this took 2 months to get right.
The PJ and the new 8010 still drive his loads better than the selectronic. His expensive unit will drive the welders nicely, but won't drive front loader washing machines... even the expensive european brands... PJ and the 8010 and the 002 drive it without any qualms at all. The selectronic will do it if the hot water is on, and already running a few kw... then the washing machine works properly.
Since the initial teething problems, it has run for the last 8 years without trouble.... not used for the last 2 years except for grid tie reverse charging purposes, and generator startups... but no problems. Could build a dozen better inverters for the price..... He did not have that skill then, but does now.
...............oztules
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"His expensive unit will drive the welders nicely, but won't drive front loader washing machines... even the expensive european brands..."
Oztules
That statement got me thinking, the fact that front loaders as well as mini_split ductless AC units and newer fridges in the asian market contain inverters themselves have an effect on any power inverter?
Solarnewbee
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The ones with inverters in them should be fine... they rectify the AC, and usually with PFC in place.... even better.
It is anything with phase triggered scr and triacs at low power that causes all the fuss.
I am guessing they try to be too cute, and modify the waves all through the cycle, rather than just scaling a jump table..... trouble for them is that unless you use a complete wave each time, then you will confuse it .
If you run a toaster at the same time, then all is good, but with no other loads, it just gets totally confused and the washer machine won't get going anywhere/somewhere/nowhere ( random) during the cycle.....
.....................oztules
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This pj topic moved on to other things I've realized but I'm wondering about my Pj 8000w 24v 220v and the fact that the one Oztules had has 2 xfmrs and mine only has one. I bought the 8kw because I figured on not going much over 6kw not wanting to blow anything.
The pj people don't seem to warrant their gear even though their system accepts warranty registration. They list Skype and email and have quit answering. Dr powerjack on eBay has replacement parts but shipping is an arm and a leg.
GC_Supermarket on eBay has some really low priced semiconductors including irf1405 MosFet around $1usd each. Micro-controllers (Arduino, Raspberry PI)too if someone wants to venture into controlling and monitoring of your systems.
Good Day!
SN
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If you duplicate the 8010 board, or the egs002 board, you won't need PJ anymore... you can build a new controller and restack the fet board for the price of their postage alone.... problem solved.
It looks as if the board problem will be solved very soon by Clockman too.... saves you messing up the wifes sink with ferric chloride or HCl Cuso4 solutions.... ;D
I don't know why the 8kw units now have only one lonely transformer... the two I got in my original 8kw unit....were too small for more than 3, and maybe 4kw continuous with cooling.
I would probably still use the 4110 even at 24v... cheap and nasty, but still pretty strong.... and I have plenty on hand... would not use 24v for anything over 2-3kw.... better to go 48v... with the 8010 thats already to go at any voltage over 12v.
..................oztules
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ok, I'm going to ask a really dumb question here....
If these things are so bullet-proof, solid and inexpensive, and the only thing they don't do well is transition to/from mains, has anyone thought about using them as the back-end .... of an inverter style generator?!
I don't expect it'd take TOO much extra effort to do some rudimentary form of throttle control from input voltage.
Is it feasible to build one that will run from 200+VDC (perhaps as much as 350V) so we could "convert" an ordinary dumb genset into an inverter output one? Nice, clean, fixed-frequency output... the FETs would be far smaller because of the lower current, the transformer would be close to 1:1, perhaps something like 3:4 to give it some headroom - but again, smaller windings.
Just musing....
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yes,
The 8010 or 002 would do fine, the pj would require some modding/deception to get it to run at a voltage other than designated.
Probably the 8010 would be the best, as it is easy to customise, and little to go wrong.Fair chance the normal governor would do fine for the job if just pure sine was the goal.... but if you want slow motor on low output, then yes a controller would need to be fashioned.
The older reliable cap field gennies need higher rpm... so they would not do unless you only wanted clean power.
Units with AVR would probably still need a fair rpm to keep them stable, as if you let the rpm drop too much, you may burn out the rotor or the rotor drive coils in the stator........
I don't know what sort they use for the normal units doing this.
For home brew, would probably go for a HV car alternator style of device in that case... ie the usual AVR type of 240v alternator......voltage does not matter so much then, so we can use the field for our purposes.
I could effect output by rpm and field winding. You would be surprised at how much current can be developed at reasonably low rpm with just a car alt and a controller .. ie at little more than an idle you can still get 40 amps if you drive the field on most cars hard..... so I would go that style ( 48v), and gear it up if no AVR sort handy, so that most times I was at low speed for most of the power range, and only ramp rpm up if I was pushing it hard.... then back off field as rpm rose.... so nano or similar so decisions can be made..... certainly doable via analog too.
With the transformer, drive voltage is just a side issue... what ever transformer we have and we can accommodate it.
By using field and rpm for power control, I expect it would be pretty stable.
Just off the top of my head anyway.
edit... actually. in my journals somewhere, there are descriptions of avr units I repaired/rewound, and also motor car alternator sets i built.... they both lend themselves to this project.... particularly the car alt sets. you can do without a controller for them, they run low speed anyway, and the govenor controls the motor as the regulator does it's thing.
In truth, I would not bother... more solar and no generator is my motto.... and I'm further south than you...... and for a genny, a 5hp honda and a few 48v alternators would do in a pinch.
Co-generating is pointless if your transformer is big enough, as keeping the fets cool is easy enough at high power from my experience so far.
......................oztules
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Apologies for being out of the picture recently - by egs002 are you referring to http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pure-Sine-Wave-Inverter-SPWM-Board-EGS002-EG8010-IR2110-Driver-Module-DC-AC-/231855517304 ?
I am promised by Cher that the new one transformer 8000LF units can do 4kW "continuous" - that really probably means for 5 minutes . . . Solarnewbe - can you do a test on yours at 3kW and at 4kW?
Apparently they have stopped making the 15000LF but are still making a 10000LF.
Has anyone worked out how one can enable one control board to drive multiple driver boards and their transformers? This would enable the PJ units to be stacked . . .
Best wishes
OTW
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Yes OTW thats the board.
As you have been away, read this if you want to get up to speed on the boards and their performance and how to etc etc.
http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1116.0.html
It is long ... but plenty of learning was done along the way.
..............oztules
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OK, you guys are amazing! I just read through the entire thread. I even understood some of it. ;)
I have a couple of PowerJack inverter questions.
1) I have some SunPower SPR-327NE-WHT-D solar panels http://www.stellarsolar.net/downloads/SPR-E20-327NE-WHT.pdf (http://www.stellarsolar.net/downloads/SPR-E20-327NE-WHT.pdf) and I'd like to hook them up directly into an inverter. I have read that the high voltage alarm of the PJ LF inverters is set at 50v but the panels put out 64.9 open circuit voltage. I assume there is an easy way to adjust the allowed DC input voltage up by adding some turns to the transformer or by modding the control board to accept a slightly higher voltage. Do I have to do both? Or is there a better DC-DC converter available to bring the panel voltage down to 48v without too many losses?
2) I know the split phase thing may be annoying to many of you but it is unfortunately the reality I live with. The PJ split phase inverters are quite a bit more than their single phase counterparts. How difficult would it be to (and what would be involved in) modifying a standard LF inverter to be split phase? It seems like the split phase transformers probably have an extra 110v winding and it looks like a little daughter card with a small transformer is installed on the controller board to flip the second 110v leg 180 degrees out of phase. I also see what looks like a sensor around one of the AC wires that runs to this daughter card. (see pics) I couldn't find where this card was sold separately. Has anyone done this conversion? If I could get the component list and an idea of where to hook it up, I'm sure I could make it work but I don't think have the skills to figure out what is needed on my own. Any help would be appreciated.
Mike
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The pulse width of the waves dictates the output voltage generally. If the transformer is out of range then this is mute... but thats the deal.. so it will operate normally from 46v to about 60 volts easily enough... so thats not the problem... the problem is how the control card sees the over 60 volts.
I have run over 63v without damage, but have no idea how much the input to the control card voltage regulator will go to before damage occurs to the Vreg.
To do that you will have to disable the Vhigh resistor.... I use the 5v6 zenner in the story.
You will have a pretty feeble inverter with no battery on the front end... not sure why you would do this..
The split phase is simply a center tapped transformer, or two in series on the secondary. The little one and the current transformer is purely for the front screen voltage and current measurements.
So if you have two transformers in it, your good to use them as a split phase output if you want. If it is a single transformer without a split winding, your in need of another transformer to put into parallel - series.. they sell them on ebay.
..............oztules
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Thanks for your response. As you can see, I don't understand all of this too well and have a lot to learn. Thanks for your patience. It is interesting and I'd like to play if I can.
Ah, I don't care about the screen. Good to know that is all the daughter card is for.
The pulse width of the waves dictates the output voltage generally. If the transformer is out of range then this is mute... but thats the deal.. so it will operate normally from 46v to about 60 volts easily enough... so thats not the problem... the problem is how the control card sees the over 60 volts.
I have run over 63v without damage, but have no idea how much the input to the control card voltage regulator will go to before damage occurs to the Vreg.
So I need to fix the transformer windings first to handle 64.9v or is it fine the way it is?
To do that you will have to disable the Vhigh resistor.... I use the 5v6 zenner in the story.
Yes, I saw that. So I would disable the Vhigh resistor. I'd rather not defeat the high voltage protection altogether but maybe that is the only way. Would I be better off using one of your 8010 controllers? Can the Vhigh be modified on that board somehow?
You will have a pretty feeble inverter with no battery on the front end... not sure why you would do this..
Can you please explain why supplying the inverter with a slightly higher voltage would make it feeble? Or are you saying I need the battery bank to allow the inverter to get the amps it needs on hard starts? I think I am beginning to see.
The split phase is simply a center tapped transformer, or two in series on the secondary. The little one and the current transformer is purely for the front screen voltage and current measurements.
So if you have two transformers in it, your good to use them as a split phase output if you want. If it is a single transformer without a split winding, your in need of another transformer to put into parallel - series.. they sell them on ebay.
Ah, so that is how they do it with a single transformer. They take lead off the center of the secondary winding as neutral. Can multiple center tapped transformers be run in parallel? I assume so as long as you get the polarity correct.
Maybe I should just buy a 6,000w unit which already has the two transformers in it. Do any others have two? I know the 8,000w used to but now it is shipping with only one. I think the 10,000w and 15,000w models have three, correct? I do understand I can buy an 8000w and purchase a matching transformer to add to it.
I don't understand, when you talk about using two regular transformers, the primary winding is wired in parallel and the secondary is wired in series?
BTW, I eventually plan to use the PJ to wake up my 7,000w grid-tie inverter if that makes any difference in this discussion.
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Providing your going up in voltage, the transformer will be fine... the pulse widths will just be smaller.
Yes, put two normal transformers in primary parallel, and secondaries in series, and you have a split phase output. the outputs are floating, so you can put them in series one way, and have two 110v outputs and no 220v or change one around, and have 2 x 110v and 1 x 220v.... so just get the phasing correct.
The 8010 controller won't care what voltage you run it... it is up to you. In it's raw state it does not have upper and lower voltage limits... it just runs with what it has got to work with.
Running without batteries leaves you at the mercy of the sun... and the max power you can draw will be determined by that and the load matching.... that also implies, that your panels can be pulled down rapidly to very low,and your power will be so far from the Vmp, that your losing nearly everything..... suggest not to do it.
I do it with solar pumping units I make, but thats different entirely..... and you do have to make an effort to stay near Vmp, or it won't work usefully.
"I don't understand, when you talk about using two regular transformers, the primary winding is wired in parallel and the secondary is wired in series?"... yes... as above.
"BTW, I eventually plan to use the PJ to wake up my 7,000w grid-tie inverter if that makes any difference in this discussion."..... don't do it without a massive battery bank, and much bigger transformers........
................oztules
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Thanks oztules. I'll get a PJ inverter to play with and then I'm sure I'll have a bunch more questions.
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Hi Oztules and others, I have been unable to get our PJ 8000w to work as a battery charger. Does anyone have experience with this? The manual is woeful.
So far my battery charge procedure has been:
1. Power down PJ
2. Connect generator output (6.8kva genset) to PJ 240v input using wired terminals
3. Start up genset and turn genset power output on
4. Turn on PJ switch
5. PJ boots up no charging happens, just outputs as inverter.
Aditional question, manual shows PJ being used as a UPS type arrangement, as in can run 240v input in the PJ and when that fails the PJ will automatically pull from the batts, while maintaining a continuous 240v output. Is this correct? A lot of the warnings about the PJ tell you to power down before changing from inverter to charger function, but is it ok to go from charger to inverter function with powering down?
A walkthrough from anyone who has used it as a charger would be most helpful.
Our inverter is 2015 PJ 8000w with two torroids.
Thanks in advance!
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I don't do it any more, but suspect I have blown more boards up than most trying combinations.
I have never had a problem with destructive behavior when the pj syncs to the genny... so as far as my playing has been concerned, you can run the genny, and hook it up while running as an inverter, as it gently syncs to the genny frequency. It has to do this even if you turn the pj off first, the same events need to be enacted... it is the switch off that stinks.... make sure you turn of PJ before disconnecting source/genny.
Not syncing is usually only due to voltage of genny out of range, or frequency out of range.
If they are in range it will/should pull in.... so check your genny voltage and frequency... they may have one and not the other.
If AVR, the voltage may well be right, but rpm wrong, and the same for cap excited units... for different reasons, but same effect.
I have a W7 ( same cards essentially) that I tried for many times to get the actual grid to connect, and it would not.... but it connected to a genny one day I was fixing for someone else.... the grid was not high enough... so it thought anyway.... tested theory by using an auto transformer winding, and bingo, worked every time.
The W7 did not need disconnecting before switch off... and this caused me to experiment with the PJ too much. ( W7 has EI transformer)
It was not that the grid was so bad, but the PJ/W7voltage measuring staircase was iffy at best.
............oztules
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Thanks for the reply Oztules. Interesting...as always. Wil check some specifications and try a couple of startup procedures.
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Hello to all here in the Forumhttp://www.anotherpower.com/board/Smileys/default/kiss.gif
I am a new bee and have to say it's great what I read over the whole thread
according the LF inverters and the W7 modifications.
Congratulations to You sharing all this use full information in this case.
I came on that forum across the W7 activities in an parallel forum.
I found some time ago in an German forum about Photovoltaic systems an hint
to You guy's and all Your activities.
Now to my little project :http://www.anotherpower.com/board/Smileys/default/huh.gif
On the roof of my house sitting 36 Panels with prox. 9.8 Kwh/peek.
Via an three phase grid tied SMA 9000 converter the power is used partial
for own consumption and the rest runs over an two directional recording
counter into the main grid. The earnings due to German regulation are 0.15€
per Kwh . In the rules is defined , the own consumption has to bee 70% of
solar earnings. So I put an logger into the line . The logger counts the
output from the grid inverter plus the readings from the two way counter.
This system is now running since Feb. 2012 with no issue.
I found out that my consumption is very close to the 30% depending on
the weather condition in the year.
In spring & winter no problem, but in summer & autumn I am out of spec.
So I put up an cheap inverter for 24V ( brand name Westech Combi S ) which is
as I found out later similar the W7. It draw in idle 2.5 to 3 A in my
case. So not good to run cont. The good thing is, the included loader
which gives at 24V aprox. 30 to 35A current in position 100% load.
There is a 3 digi sw for current reduction to 25, 50 and 75% , which is
very use full in my case. Please see later why !
The other goody it CCCV+time load characteristic and able to connect LiFePo4 batteries.
I use a 270Ah 8s3p 24V System with top balancing each cell and have
a home brew battery watch system with upper and lower limits for the overall
voltage ( currently 30.2V high end 24.2V low end) controlled by a small
AVR system including net availability in the local network. It also
saves data on SHDC and addition every minute in a data bank
on one 24h's running separate raspberry-pi II with a SSD drive joined.
So I have access to the status over long periods and get some idea what's going on.
It is also possible, when I am on the road to get on the system even through the
internet via tunnel application.
The inverter is only used on one phase which is switched from a program
running in the background of the UNIX driven solar-logger.
The signals are applied by relays which are driven on the lpt-port from
the logger.
Simply spoken, if their is power going from the solar grid inverter into
the mains grid and it is more than 500w , the program start the
loader part in the W7 inverter at 50% current ; is the power > 1000W -> 75%
and more then 1500W go to 100% load current. It also counts the charge time
accordingly. That gives me back how long the battery can be discharged
safely also on week sunny days at winter season
The use time is during the night. I switch the inverter 2 minutes
on ( very low time idle ) before I disconnect the phase "T" from the grid
and change this line to the inverter output. The length of "on-time"
is calculated from the load-time * a total efficiency factor found over
a while using the system. It is possible to change most parameters of
the system on the fly via the network.
Typical consumption is 1,4 to 1,8 Kwh over the whole time period .generated by
the inverter. The consumers are deep freezer, freezers, circulating pumps
from the heating system, all the server's and TV-sets and lights at the
staircase and basement . This system is now alive since May 2014 and saves
the 70% problematic. At the time its running aprox. 35-37% .
Now my questions:
I bought a LF5000 24V a month ago . The unit was real real cheap < 300€ !!
made some tests and found idle current is 0.85A , what seems to be ok.
the round choke with 3 or 3,5 turns is in.
But the loader work's different the W7 type . only high load current
continuous going down over the time to an float stage. The PCB (controller)
looks very similar to the W7 with a few changes on fan control NTC's including
a switch for continuous run at the rear.
Fancy display with current and voltage sensors are also attached.
A: Is their somebody having a schematic about the upper PCB for the W7 and the LF series ??
please let me know .
1: Is the program in the case W7 different to the LF series inverters ??
2: Do You think this new LF5000 will do the job in my case ?? (typical load 300 to 700W)
3: Is their any one tracing a similar concept as I have in place. will try to get
a sketch up into this thread.
Any solution is appreciated
UFA.Solar
Sorry for German at the schematics produced some time ago.
Over all diagram plus details
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I bought the 24 VAC 8000 watt power jack based on Oztules' post. I am off grid. I ave been using square wave inverters for years due to cost, but found out the square wave was burning out my refrigerators, got a bunch of dead ones I use for storage now. So when I saw your review on te Power Jack, I got one, as we had been struggling with a Harbor Freight square wave 6000 watt inverter that never gave us the power it said. Haven't been able to run my deep well pump for years, not since the AIMS, which was square wave, but at least ran the well pump for 4 hours a day if we wanted. (We store water in a 350 gallon tank and must pump for garden and automatic gravity waterers for livestock. )But I couldn't get my husband to help me fix the huge hole in te pumphoouse roof, and it rained, burning out the AIMS and throwing us back into primitive living for YEARS. Wasting money on gasoline for generator and noise.
Anyway, the Power jack I got only has one big torroid in it, and I think they learned from the windings on the magnet as a choke when I went to put mine in, (made from Oztules' instructions, ) they had placed a small one in there, just where he said to, only smaller than his (and mine) and on a small torroid magnet, not an E like I had made (like Oztules had) so I thought, well, nice! The wires they use are about 10 AWG while mine was 4 AWG (the one I didn't use) And it worked nice for three days. We have 10 deep cycle 12 volt batteries, wired in series to 24 volt, I have 1400 watts solar going in and 2 Outback controllers, which we adjusted to 24 volt system, There are 4 battery terminals which confused me for awhile until it looked like i only needed to hook up two. The one thing I don't like about it is the LED screen is easy to read when I first turn it on, but the backlight goes out in a minute and ten I can't see a thing as to what watts and amps and volts are going on!!. While it is on, it does appear that watts stay about 45 at idle. So that's good. I was able to run the pump AND cook on the griddle at the same time about noon, good sun. So I was pleased with that. I tested it on the small fridge (235 startup- and 104 watts working power according to the killowatt meter- and I plan to glue 2" insulation all around the outside except the area were the condenser is, and this keeps it cooler longer. Uses less power. ) and the fridge worked fine.
But it acted weird today. It pulls my water pump fine- 1400 start and 1200 continuous, and it will run it for hours as long as the sun is out and sky is clear. But when i turn the pump off, the small load from the laptops and LED lights are no longer seeming to keep it on, it does the blinking thing. Irritating, as I have a lot of low power stuff I need on. It was fine for a few nights there. Don't know what I did wrong. I fiddled with the inputs and the plugs and tried to see if something was unplugged, but no, then I plugged in te fridge and that got it working again- it seems it liked higher power even a few hundred watts, rather than lower power. I thought it had fixed itself until I unplugged the fridge to move it inside and the inverter went all screwy again. Back on generator at night until I get this troubleshot. Any ideas?
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I don't have one of these, but it sounds to me like you have it in "Automatic" mode - it's "searching for a load". With a few very small loads, it's shutting down.
If you can find it's "mode" switch and select "always on" rather than automatic mode, it'll probably fix your problem.
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I agree with Ross. try the other position on the big rocker switch. It needs at least 50w on the search mode I think to make it run..... would normally be used to run the fridge or fridges only, and turn off the rest of the time.... you can save idle power that way, and the way they were originally that coulds save you 5kwh/day. power that way....
I have never bothered to use it like that for more than a few minutes as a curiosity.
The little torroid makes a huge difference, not quite as much as the ecore does, but good all the same.
Edit: A 100r resistor across the back of the LCD screen will keep it on all the time... I will take pics of the mod when I can get one out.
...............oztules
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UFA.
The W7 is slightly different to the PJ control card... they are sort of interchangeable, but small differences. The later model W7 had variable current charging, the PJ does not. You can only select a range of different battery technologies.
It will drive your loads ok, but the charging is very iffy, and you may blow it up if you don't switch off the PJ before turning off the grid going to it. The W7 runs this part fine as it has different transformer types.
The W7 transformer has lots of leakage, so handles the frequency change from charge mains freq to 50 hz on change back to invert.. the torroids tend to blow things up as there is little to no leakage there to act as a buffer.
Circuits are not available as far as I know for the control card, except for the driver stage.
With no current control, and patchy turn off characteristics, it may not be what you want... if you have a separate charger it will do fine.
.............oztules
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Hi Oz
many thanks about Your verry quick answer !!!http://www.anotherpower.com/board/Smileys/default/wink.gif
The information from You is helpfull .
Yes the W7 is a different type of transformer big M-core , which is using up a lot of current idle.
In the data sheet I got with the unit theye write :
Charging curve ( 4 stage constant current ) Battery types ;
4-step digital controlled progressive charging see the picts attached.
When i look to the different boards there is still on the new LF-PCB the terminals for the
current dig sw ; only no cable . so I put up an variable resitor to check out if there is some
change in output current --- nothing changed -- .
My W7 is in productive phase and I could not look to details on the PCB what is the real
difference. Do You have some idea . I put a detail pic from that area attached.
UFA.Solar
details digi-sw PICT1394
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UFA Solar - what an amazing system you've put together. Thanks so much for taking the time to give such detail and I'm going to be studying it carefully.
For those not wanting to go into such complexity, however, system modelling charge with a 5W or 10W solar panel feeding a 500F capacitor and modelling discharge with a current transformer modelling load driving a LED loading the capacitor with an LDR can give a very rough and ready but useful indication of charge/discharge balance.
Best wishes
OTW
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In the W7 clone, it is pins 1 and 20 with a 20k pot that controls current from a front panel trimmer.
I tried this on an old PJ, to no avail. It uses pin 20 ( on the wire header) as an inverter on led drive signal, and pin 1 is gnd on both.
Pin 2 on the main chip seems to be involved somewhere, and R23 grounds that ... maybe to set current max. not sure at all. It makes sense that there is a resistor somewhere that controls the current max, and thats the one I would play with first... but I'm not that interested in the PJ boards any more, and you seem to have the skills to take this further.
Let others know how you get on with it.
Be careful to turn inverter off first before unplugging grid, or the back elf in the torrioid may kill the fets.
...........oztules
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Has anyone got the driver board to drive multiple power boards yet?
Best wishes
OTW
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Hi Oz
Thanks for the tip according W7's .
I have not checked that in my W7 one , only used the digi-switches which are applied.
At this time I was not shure if all the stuff would work as estimated and planed.
I will continue to see if it is possible to use the LF-system in the same way.
Loader & inverter in my running system ..... will take some time......
Your recomendation about inverter use !!! ..... I have applied in my system.
New edit of the next part: It is not correct written !!!! written on date 10.July 2016
1: During use of the inverter at night houres,
the relay "8" in shema "Steuerung01" (thread before) comes "on"
!! 2 minutes after the inverter is switched "on" by relais"4" but no 220V applied to the inverter !!!
2: At the morning relais "8" is cut "off" 2 minutes before relais"4" switiching the inverter completely
"off" no 220V applied to the W7 !!!
3: At about 6 o'clock in the morning !! before sunraise !! (calculated out of my location and time in the year) 220V is applied to the !now! loadermod inverter W7 ;
waiting in this stage until there is enought energie ,
starting sending more then 500W into the main grid.
That's tue increase my own use off solar enrgie , as I described in my first thread.
sorry for the wrong description yesterday.
......UFA.Solar
picts from the W7 clone I have made
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As long as you turn inverter switch to off before releasing the mains, there will be no problem.
If the mains fails for whatever reason while it is battery charging... look out!
It is happy to start in any condition for start charge, as it soft changes to mains frequency, it is the cut off that causes problems with toroids.
If you can track down the stuff that causes the current max condition, you will be able to do what you wish.
Your W7 is very different than mine in the daughter board area, but the pin out from the header will probably be the same... it it is, there will be a 20k pot between 1 and 20pins for current I expect.... but PJ only uses these pins for gnd and invert led on from the looks of it.
...............oztules
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Hi Oz just wondering if it is possible to use some sort of Transorb or Crowbar circuit to protect the inverter when disconnecting the mains. Not sure about where you are but the power goes off plenty of times on the slightly larger island of Tasmania. I don't have a problem as I supply my own power, but then what happens when a generator is being run to charge batteries with a W7 or a Powerjack? If the gene runs out of fuel dose the inverter die?
On a slightly different issue, my exciter winding in my generator burnt out and I have since rewound the stator. As the exciter winding shorted out it took out the regulator. I know that regulators are cheap but I am sick of buying stuff that is epoxied so as to make it non repairable. The question is is the regulator that you designed for car alternators uprateable to use on a larger generator. My exciter winding puts out around 110 volts, the rotor needs only about 18 volts on no load. Hope all is well on your island
Pete
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Even though the W7 and pj are virtually identical, the W7 will handle the shut down without a problem.. the pj won't.
Only because of the torroid. If you had a ballast in there then it would be fine... probably an 10mh choke would do it... but it would be very big for high power units. this would limit the back emf to sustainable amounts.
The alt regs are very cheap, and thats what I would consider, but yes, the same regulator would be able to do the same thing with different components.
They both perform the same task.
............oztules
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Hi Oz
I once read through my last post 467 ......
The description is not correct ..... so I edit the wrong part....
hope now body has real taken care about und and is duing some misstake....
On my W7 clone there is a flatcable going to the frontpanel .
There are sitting all LED's , the 4 step switch and the on switch ( two position's)
The explanation for the different steps of the smale 9 pos. is very different to the LF......
see PICT8862
There is no pot. for current control ; these dip-sw are sitting on the side where the 24V is
connected. There is also a connector( telefon like Rj45) for an external control panel .
Possibly use in caravaning applications. I use this in my system for relais and controll's
So at first I have to take "of" my productive system and find the differences in the 1 to 20 post
connector and thiere use.
Now to the 1 to 20 pin connector on LF :
pin 1 -> black -> gnd
pin 2 -> red -> positiv
pin11 -> inverter on sw black marked
pin12-> middle pos of the two position switch
pin13-> on inverter safe sw
pin14-> to Alarm LED driver
pin15->code 1 of 9 pos. sw in addition 17.3k to gnd !! sw is BCD-coded
pin16->code 2 of 9 pos. sw " "
pin17->code 4 of 9 pos. sw " "
pin18->code 8 of 9 pos. sw " "
pin19->to LED driver BTY on
pin20->to to LED driver INV on
the center point of the 9 pos sw is going to gnd
all of that is on the opposite side of the 24V input and connected via flat cable
so far my findings on LF ; my some body compare and correct me if wrong........
system is a LF5000 power jack build 2016
I apreciate very much Your assistence and must say You are !! great !!
UFA.Solar
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sorry Oz
I forgot the PICT8862
UFA.Solar
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if you look at this story, you will see the powerstar type I had.
http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,780.0.html
There is a pic that shows the trim pot at the top of the board with the leds.. your unit is much later from the looks of it..
That thing used huge idle currents until I put a torroid in it.
............oztules
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Hi every one , hi Oz
I have put some block-diagram together , just to understand the system.
I am not sure this diagram is ok ??
Did not disassembly my system yet.
If there is a current sense resistor in the low voltage part , what is the value ??
and where are the lines coming up to the main PCB at which connector ??
Otherwise how the MPU ( via ADC and amplifier) get the info for the
load control in the charge stage ??
Or also in inverter run ??
?? is the inverter only under voltage output control ??
The W7 worked as a CC-CV-time loader ( constant current first step constant voltage
second step and last but not leased float stage ) The means after the battery voltage
sink to a certain value it kicks in for a new short cycle .
You can see in PICT BMS_29_12_15_plot attached
The loader in the LF lock different , but has an CC & CV component as far as I found out.
Please check my block-diagram to my questions.
UFA.Solar
attached : blockdiagram01
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loc of this part.... there is no such part.
Unless your doing cycle by cycle protection of the fets there is little point in trying to use a low value resistor in the DC side to get current readings... what would you use them for unless your doing cycle by cycle protection of fets that can in theory stand 3000amps instantaneous loads ( 600A per 4110 fet).
What goes up must come down, so what goes in must come out..
They measure the AC current via a CT next to the terminal inputs of the AC.. and the voltage.....from that they can find the wattage going into the unit/s transformer, and so the DC side approximation is there as well.
By changing the pulse width of the fets they can use the voltage and the ac wattage to get a fair picture of charge current i suspect. The synchnonous rectification will control the current and voltage in the batts.
If they define a AC wattage as a ballpark they can supply the battery with wattage to match... and it knows the voltage... so set pulse width accordingly. The only feedback it needs is DC volts and AC watts..... my best guess with what they actually have to work with.
Using only AC feedback, you can allow very high surges by simply changing the capacitor on the CT shunt, but have tight control of longer current use.
.................oztules
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Hi Oz
Used the time to make a smale mesurement tool for voltage and current .
a AVR takes every second the readings from my charger LF5000 into a 24V
PbSo4 battery ~ 90Ah; the writen capacity .
Started the LF5000 attached to the grid 230 V input and got these results.
Put the data into an open office cal.
see the data attached to this file.
I am not so happy with my findings, they are compleetly different to my
working system ; thisd is duing real CC than CV and idle
do You know somebody with experience with the LF loader capability ?
all the best
UFA.Solar
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I have no experience with the charger.
The plot looks about what I would expect for constant voltage charging .... ie set the voltage limit, and let the battery meet it according to the max current available.
What are you disappointed with?
............oztules
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Hi Oz
Thanks a lot for Your answer.
!disapointed ! why ?
I miss the current control steps ( in my case 50, 75 und 100% --> 30 [A] )
That makes it possible also with lower Solar-energie to load the battery.
In my case power steps 500 [W] 1000 [W] or 1500 [W] available or not !!
The LF system take ~ 1400 [W] of my available to grid power.
This is rear in winter times in our area . The use of solar energy for the two
hausholds has priority !!
But ok it will du the job, if I cane not modify to the older possibility ( W7 style).
May bee I find a way to do that ; I dont give up so quickly !!
At this time the solar earnings are around 40 to 45 KWh per day , own use ~ 12 KWh
So the money counter is running .....for the bad times .....
very sunny greetings
UFA.Solar
Pict. Solardata from this month
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Hi Oz and others.
This has been a great read... although somewhat confusing for a newbie. I have joined the site specifically to ask about this inverter.
I am thinking of getting a PJ LF 3kw inverter for my 12V Ute back camper. Nomrally I try very hard to apply KISS principals, and have a very minimalistic setup.
I have 120aH deepcycle, mainly chargerd off alternator with a little 40w solar panel to top it up. And my usage is "normally" a 40L 12V fridge, LED lighting and charging phone and torch batteries.
However my better half is keen on taking her bullet blender next trip. It is rated at 1000w, and all my research is saying start up load will kill cheap inverters less than 2000w.
So my research and this thread has lead me to think I should get a PJ LF inverter, and 3kw should be enough for the blender. However I am concerned about the idle draw, so I will probably only plug the inverter and blender in to a 50A anderson plug on a short lead when I need it.
Does this sound reasonable? do i need to do the e-core mods?
Also does anyone have experience with the current gen 3kw LF PJ's?
thanks
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Hi Hodgo, your idea of only plugging in the powerjack when you want to use it is fine. The 50 amp anderson plug is a bit too light.
That would only give you enough rated current for a 500 watt load. I suggest going for a 150 amp plug at the minimum.
I have two PowerStarW7 inverters, one at the house and one at my shed. No0
I use a similar system as you are considering. I have a 600 watt sinewave inverter for running most things in the house, and when I need the higher output of the W7 I have a changeover switch that I change from the small to the large inverter with.
Basically I have both inverters connected to the battery at all times and use a switch on the 240 volt side to switch the inverter output to power the house.
I only turn on the inverter that I want then. When they are switched off they do not draw power. So that works well for me.
Make sure that your cables are as large as possible and as short as possible. I suggest using a 250 amp fuse in case the mosfet transistors decide to turn into smoke.
good luck
Pete
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Thanks Pete,
I was thinking the standard 50a Anderson might have been underdoing it on a 12v system ???. Its just funny to me because everything else in my setup is lucky to draw 5amps, and I have always thought they were overkill.
I cant believe the extent I have to go to just to use a blender for about 30sec a day! before I came across these PJ inverters I was seriously considering a 2kva generator as the best value and hopefully reliable alternative. :o something like this suckered seems too good to be true https://www.emgstore.com.au/new-products-52/adventure-kings-generator-2kva.html
well looks like its time to hit ebay for some 175a Anderson plugs and some good thick battery leads
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Hello again Hodgo, with generators, I would suggest taking the blender to the shop and trying it. Some of the modern inverter generators don't deal with high startup currents well either. They should be fine with the universal motor that the blender most likely has but it is best to check before you buy.
I have 12 volt lights in my house, I have switched to 500mm LED strip lights, they are great. Tons better than my old downlights with LED's in them. They only pull around 10 watts so are pretty efficient as far as lighting goes.
I guess you could always kill two birds with one stone and convert the bullet blender to pedal power. That way you can save on a big inverter and get exercise while you blend.
Maybe a bit bulky but then more fun.
Cheerio
Pete
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it is useful for me. :D
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Hi there! I desperately need to backfeed/ AC couple a 15kw powerjack with an 11kw batteryless 400v inverter, out of the box the GT inverter shows islanding, I saw what you did with an 8kw unit that looks identical, I'm in the United States and I cans find 65mm ecores readily (maybe there's an English equivalent to metric?) also does the wire size in the core mater? I bought a 65 mm ecore from Bulgaria and promptly broke it trying to wind it (any tips?) also, can you explain why this works anyway? It really seems that you know what you're doing.
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Hi James, can't help with the backfeeding inverter part but as to winding E cores, what I do is to wind the wire around a piece of wood about the same size. Then slip the coil onto the E Core and tape/cable tie it together. Ferrite is extremely easy to break as you have found out.
As for your imperial measurements. 25.4 mm is equal to 1 inch .
Cheers
Pete
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we will need more info James.
1. 11kw will over heat the PJ I suspect.
I think you mean you have a 11kw GTI, running on 400v of solar and trying to feed it into a PJ.
You are using the PJ as a grid, for your GTI.
What battery is connected to what and where, what loads etc.... in other words, this requires a few things working together, and we need to see what these things are.
Just super glue the ferrites back together... no damage done.
..... oztules
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Ok John, here's the deal;
I have a 48v pj 15kW inverter
A 75kWh Lead Calcium Nanocarbon battery bank at 48v
A 11.4kw gti inverter
A Plc that controls a relay that will shut off the gti inverter incase of battery over voltage
12.8kw of solar panels tied into the 11.4 inverter.
So here's the deal: I really need the power jack to ax couple so I don't need to get an aims ($2k more) the power jack is rated for 15 kW so the worst case scenario is that it has 11kw run back through it to charge the batteries, although this scenario is extremely unlikely because there is a house tied to the system which will eat a lot of the gti output,
What intrigues me is how getting the thing to work was so simple, I am not by any stretch a genius, but could you explain the electrical concept behind this?
Also is there a minimum wire size? I am having trouble winding even 4ga copper round the ecore
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I just tried what you did and my result is the inverter making a loud stalling noise when under load greater than 1000w, also the gti shows the same islanding fault it did before
Here are some Picts of my attempt, please have a look and [/img]let me know how I screwed up
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Check your original idle consumption, you may not need the e core, as they have provided a torroid for you... if the current is down in the .5-.8 range, it does not need the ferrite e core... if 1-5 amps, then yes it does.
It is not clear how you have connected the e core, but I assume it is between a heat sink and the transformer..... this would be correct if you need it.
The noise is likely the e core screaming ... if you ignore the noise, is it running properly?
The GTI is another problem..... USA has odd wiring, so make sure the ac output of the GTI is 220-240v not 110v... and the same for the PJ don't use the 110 split phase outputs..... and make sure it is floating output... ie the split phase is not earthed some how.
It should just work, but I remember another USA fellow that had similar problems, and from memory it was a earth/neutral problem too.
You will need to super glue the e core to shut it up.
All H-bridge in this format will reverse charge, it is a simple property of the H bridge, it will synchronously rectify the AC, and boost convert it up so that it will charge the battery from the AC.... usually runs cooler in this direction too.... when the N channels are turned on.. they become a low impedance conductor.
.............oztules
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It had a round ferrite core in line already, and it drew .5a standby so I assume that you're saying it doesn't need the ecore.
As far as grounding goes you may know that the American 240v is made with two hot lines (l1 and l2) that have 120v of potential relative to the grounded current carrying conductor (known as the neutral) end the two hot lines have 240v of potential relative to each other because they are 180 degrees out of phase relative to each other (picture two sine waves laid up one each other to make a string of infinity signs) so our common mains has l1, l2, n and ground (neutral and ground are commonly bonded at one spot in the system) your typical setup internationally is L,N and G (or PE/E) on the power Jack I have there is an output block that has the international L,N,E terminals, an input block that has the L,N,E terminals, and an output block above them that has an L1, L2, N arrangement. The LNE output on the bottom reads 120v between L-N the block above it L1-L2 reads 240v should I just not hook up the N on the top block? I'll attach a picture of the split phase unit's front.
I once wanted to charge the inverter with a 240v split phase generator and I had success by tying l1 into the L terminal of the input block and L2 into the N terminal of the input block
Having trouble with Internet, just look up "splite phase 220v 15000w lf inverter on eBay) they spell split "splite"
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Did the other US guy doing this leave a blog trail?
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It is somewhere... no real idea where.
If you treat the unit as a simple single phase 220v unit, it will work with your 220v power mains.
The unit is floating inside.
.....oztules
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So, if you don't mind clarifying, I should just not connect the neutral to the mains and send the l1/l2 leads to each of the hots?
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Split phase USA power is simply a "center tapped" transformer on the pole, with two 110v outputs center tapped. Over here it is available if you need 480v for HV power equipment... only ever seen it used once... on a SWER line out in the sticks. I suppose, if I were to get up the pole I could rewire the secondary outputs up there for series ( split phase) 480v at half the current... so it would still be rated at 24kw.. but at 50amp not 100amp
The PJ is the same as I understand it.. ie in this case has two transformers with seriesed outputs... basically acting as a single center tapped transformer. If it were parallel, then it would be 110v@twice the current.
So if your grid tie is 220v, then use the 220 output of the PJ.... so L1 and L2, and leave the neutral CT floating. would be my best bet.
...........oztules
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alright, here's the feed out;
what had been happening was that the system was actually working for 40 seconds backfeeding and all, but the grid tie inverter would at that point show an islanding fault (basically it thought that it was feeding onto a downed power grid and as a safety measure it is designed to shut off) I watched the backfeed dc amps go above 100 before the gti threw the fault, but the voltage didn't pile up that much, the inverter started at 232vac and it went up to 236, I was expecting it to go up at least 15vac, and I think this is what made my picky gti think it was islanding, the manufacturer says that some new software may fix the issue, but I was wondering if there was a way to tweak the powerjack to pile up the voltage a little more
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Start with less solar panel, and work your way up.... some is better than none while testing.... more time to find out what is really causing it.
............ozatules
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I do not have a powerjack myself. But, a friend of mine just install one that is rated something over 10 KW. It seems to work ok until the battery voltage gets to about 58 volts and then cuts off. The manual indicates that over voltage should be 4 x 15.5 or 62 volts. Is there any adjustment or way to adjust the high voltage cutoff. The unit works fine at night and on cloudy days. But, cuts off on bright sunny days. This is of course a 48 volt system which will charge up to about 58 volts for normal use. Ed
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Long time since I used them now, but 5v6 zenner across the 10meg resistor next to the main chip works. There are pics here and elsewhere depicting the orientation and position. I no longer recall it properly.
...........oztules
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Hi oztules! I'm trying to understand toroid transformers. Just by the power ratings of PJ 24v vs 48v pure sine inverters it seems they think a similar toroid can double the power output by Increasing primary voltage from 24 to 48. At first glance this makes sense as the primary current would only be 1/2 to get the same work done.
Recently i modified an original pj 24/110 toroid by changing the 24v primary 12-in-hand to 6 in hand series to 6-in-hand. This changed the primary to work as a 48v unit but since i changed a 12 strand parallel to a 6-strand series my copper resistance will have doubled. So end result I havent changed the KVA rating at all.
Therefore i dont see a gain as far as physical size and kva rating of raising input voltage. Am i missing something??
I'm not arguing 24v vs 48 as its no comparison with power handling. Just trying to understand limitations of toroids. You have mentioned saturation is not the result of driving a transformer current too high but a result of overdriving volts for a given winding/turns. Since that is a fact, can I effectively increase the KVA rating by simply decreasing the primary copper resistance by removing 12-strand primary and replacing it with. 24-strands keeping turns the same of course. If this decrease of primary copper resistance increases kva rating, what role does the physical size of the core play?
Is a larger core necessary other than more real-estate for wire?
Thank you so much for your knowledge and teaching abilities!
Here are 2 photos, the toroid got an additional 120v winding as well. This pj is now 48v 120/240.
It works great, measured values are 122/117/239. The values are offset intentionally for 240 at grid tie and 122 for house loads.
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Here's an excellent article explaining details of transformer parameters.
http://www.edn.com/design/components-and-packaging/4369085/Using-a-power-transformer-at-a-frequency-it-wasn-t-designed-for
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"Is a larger core necessary other than more real-estate for wire?"
Really it is only copper resistance that dictates the core size, as once we have magnetising current out of the way,, no amount of power throughput will change the magnetics, as the core will not saturate from heavier current, only from lower frequency or higher voltage, but not more current..... even though it feels like a ampere turns thing, it is not really that as far as the core saturation is concerned.
Once the magetising current is out of the way, all other stuff will be work or heat... ie the magnetic fields of the primary will make an electromagnetic field around the coil of copper that will induce voltage into the coil of wire that is the secondary. The core just facilitates this magnetic interplay i guess is one way of looking at it
With that in mind, if you want more power from a given core, it means filling the thing right up with copper. If you can get the super conductor thing happening, then core size will be irrelevant.
So we use a bigger core so we can get a smaller number of turns of bigger wire in there.
Bigger cores allow bigger wire for two reasons... one more realestate, and two, we need less turns for the same number of volts ( or more volts per turn when we get a big enough core).... so we can use even thicker wire before running out of room.
"Recently i modified an original pj 24/110 toroid by changing the 24v primary 12-in-hand to 6 in hand series to 6-in-hand. This changed the primary to work as a 48v unit but since i changed a 12 strand parallel to a 6-strand series my copper resistance will have doubled. So end result I havent changed the KVA rating at all."
Yes your resistance has doubled....... but your current has halved... and the losses will be an I^2 x R.... so if you had say 4 amps running through a 2 ohm core, we would have E=IR or 8v loss times 4 amps = 32 watts.... or 4^2 x 2 = 32 watts for I^2R.... done both ways.... for your next scenario, we would have 2 amps at 4 ohms for the same work....... so by E=IR we have a loss across the coil of 8 volts still....but losses will be 8 x 2 for 16 watts losses... or by I^2 R we have 2x2x4=16 watts losses.
So it looks to me you have done better.
..............oztules
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I feel dumb ;D. I never plugged the values in the formula and overlooked the obvious. Thanks so much for pointing that out! I make the same mistake occasionally when I use a water heating element at a voltage increase thinking its a linear increase in power with volts and its not.
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Ive had a rough start with my 24/ 48v pj inverter conversion. Does anyone else ever have frustrating moments with H-bridges?
I wanna say i blew it up at least 4 times. The very first run after the conversion ran 1/2 a day before vaporizing the bottom row of fets. Each time i fixed it the inverter would run great for a while and then start to get noisy and then poof. Eventually watching the board powered on in the dark i could see fire flashing around the board in front of the fet bridges. I cleaned board very well replaced fets again and it ran for a few more minutes, poof.
After blowing up one more time i had the "thats it, i've had enough moment!! I dug out an old dataq instruments computer scope "148u" I cut the ribbon cable leads for pin 1 and 2, connected 48v supply negative where it belongs and the +48v fused at 1 amp to the cut wires leading to control board. Then, i rigged a "110v actual voltage" to simulate the feedback.
Powered up board and repaired issues until i got identical pictures of all gate drives with no FETs in the main board. Then because i was totally out of 4110s and needed 7 more to finish the set, I took a pile of used ones and put each on a 4 amp load with 8v on gate and measured voltage drain to source in this "on" state. Some measured as low as 24mv while some as high as 36mv. I choose those in the middle at 29 mv. I then finished out the complete set of fets with "tested" components. Again i looked at all 4 drive outputs with fets in circuit. When all looked perfect i started with a 24v control board and 24v supply. It seems like the 48v circuit is more picky. One thing i want to point out, the idle current on 24v was 2.8A with no choke, i noticed the band around the toroid was warm in one spot after only a minute of on time. I took the metal band off toroid and watched idle current drop and again when i removed bolt from middle. Something someone here may want to consider. After switching to 48v setup i then installed a choke
Thank You Oztules, :)
The idle current went from 1.4A at 48v no choke all the way down to .4A for 19.6w :)
By the way the pics of top and bottom H drive reveals bipolar modulation on even the 2013/08 control board. The first pic is the bottom gate drives and the second is the top pair, 3rd pic is of a different time base and one top / one bottom; this scope is very speed limited at 7000 samples/sec with 2 channels at same time.
One thing to note, since the 3rd pic is a top and bottom the timing should reveal a 180 degree offset. I was extremely puzzled about this, so much so that i thought the gate drive leads were switched around, i proved the timing was in fact correct by swapping in the 24v control board and it showed the same timing error and i knew it worked. Then i unplugged the feedback which causes the modulation to go 100% to 60hz square wave, then it shows the 180 offset. I think the problem is created because im only using 1 ground reference for scope and top/bottom drives do not have the same ground, in fact since i have the power supply disconnected on main board, the charge pump for upper drive cannot even function. Surprised it worked as well as it did.
This inverter has now run about 14 hours and ran only about 2.5kwh before it tripped on overvolt with dead battery. I did the R14 voltage mod, Today may go better.
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How is your Inverter now Light Hunter, I have been trying to get mine right for many months now. I keep getting nasty spikes in the output, works fine with only half the MOSFETs but is not right with more. One tip for testing I got from Oztules that is very helpful is to run it with no capacitors on the MOSFET board and put a 30-ohm resistor in series with the 48V supply. If anything shorts the MOSFETs don't go bang. If you have the CAPS on the board they can draw huge current just long enough to make the FETs explode.
BTW does your PC Scope have the ability to save an image?
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Hi Madness :) there is 23.39 hrs on the inverter now since finishing it. It sounds and runs perfectly.
Today it was cloudy though and i only had 1 array hooked to it so it didnt get a workout, only 2kwh put into battery. Tomorrow i will add a 3kw array to it so it may be running at 4kw tomorrow fr the first time. I think part of my problem is i buy cheap fets and i hadnt been testing them. From now on i will. I also did not clean board good enough earlier. Finally used gasoline and toothbrush then finished with alcohol. That cleaned it nicely, Great idea on the series resistor and removing caps! I had thought of that but hoped i didnt need to go that far.
My pc scope is just a cheap 8 channel data aquisition unit. I dont know if i can save a screen shot but windows can since it runs on windows os. You can record the whole wave display for as long as you wish and view any time frame later as a still pic. You can view waveform with record mode on or off. It cost $50 10 yrs ago made by dataq instruments in ohio. I'm sure they have better stuff now but it does help verify control board before you connect to fets.
Dont give up! you can do it! is it a 48v?
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Yes I have had it running last time was for 2 weeks till it failed. Only way I have been successful though is to increase the dead time to the max but it is still quite there. Have had it running well over 6 KW thought for several hours, I have built it with extra windings in the toroid and big heatsinks to run at the higher power levels. Last failure though was after a couple days of very light running.
I will look for the arcing you mentioned next time I fire it up. My system is 48V I have 7.5KW of solar panels ATM which I am planning to add another 5 KW to shortly. I am running a 10KW AC that draws up to 3 KW plus a second AC that draws 660W and running a normal house. I have 2 4500W Trace inverters athat I am using ATM but they were built last century and I don't expect them to last forever.
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I'm amazed, your equipment is in another category of power level. I may have to increase mine also though. Odd, ive got a 24v setup with a 200lb square transformer and it runs 4kw without an issue and very little heat, i turn fan on low just for a little protection. Now this 48v setup is using 1 original pj toroid with modified windings and it only had to hit 1850w today and the former + heatsi ks got very warm. 3 times it shut off, guessing it was heat because it turned right back on.
It didnt display. Any red lights.
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Lighthunter..... those PJ transformers are only 1kw continuous by my reading........ they do fine with huge loads for short periods, but continuous they are very much under cooked. You will need to wind a 100lb torroid to emulate the 200 lb square one...... and that PJ is not that.
..........oztules
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Lighthunter..... those PJ transformers are only 1kw continuous by my reading........ they do fine with huge loads for short periods, but continuous they are very much under cooked. You will need to wind a 100lb torroid to emulate the 200 lb square one...... and that PJ is not that.
..........oztules
What would be a safe max working temp for one of those PJ toroids as standard?
What seems to make my modified PJ get the hottest is backfeeding throught the toroid to charge the batteries. The other direction at the same draw produces about 1/3 of the heat.
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I'm amazed, your equipment is in another category of power level. I may have to increase mine also though. Odd, ive got a 24v setup with a 200lb square transformer and it runs 4kw without an issue and very little heat, i turn fan on low just for a little protection. Now this 48v setup is using 1 original pj toroid with modified windings and it only had to hit 1850w today and the former + heatsi ks got very warm. 3 times it shut off, guessing it was heat because it turned right back on.
It didnt display. Any red lights.
if you have a look at my setup where i have split the pj into seperate parts and put them into an electric wall mount box with fans on the front door. With regards to the temperatures of the individual components. The heatsinks and the fets are by far a lot cooler than the toroids ever are. For example on a 2kw load the heatsinks only get up to about 20 deg c, where as the toroids can reach 50 deg c. At 10kw load the max i have seen the heatsinks is 37 deg, but the toroids can reach 80-90 deg.
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I find the whole thing runs cooler back feeding ( the 8010 ... don't use PJ nowdays ).
The wire insulation is the thing holding the transformer back from destruction, and I would hope that less than 100c would be fine. If it cant take boiling water temp, then there is a real problem.
The hotter it gets, the easier it is to get the joules out of it, as delta T gets bigger....... 80c seems to be the normal getting too hot temp... ie when they normally take steps to ease up a bit.. fans or throttle back in some cases.
...........oztules
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Lighthunter..... those PJ transformers are only 1kw continuous by my reading........ they do fine with huge loads for short periods, but continuous they are very much under cooked. You will need to wind a 100lb torroid to emulate the 200 lb square one...... and that PJ is not that.
..........oztules.
Uh, ok, seems like they should do more but from what ive seen, i agree.
It would be perfect to switch the large transformer to the 48v inverter but they arent near each other. The 510AH battery is one frame (2000lbs) is that right? I know its heavy, no chance of getting it in basement. Moving the large transformer out of basement would be a trick as well. Think i will leave the 24v setup alone, it works too well to mess with.
Heres a couple of photos of another transformer i may be able to use, its only 1/4 the size of the one im using for 24v inv but its still pretty big guess about 50lbs similar to a sack of feed to pick up.
The idle current is around 19w with dual 120v secondaries and a quad 43.5v primary.
I wonder if I couldnt pull some of the wire out of the middle and reduce the 43.5v to 35v??
The primary has 4 parallel of 10awg square copper
No idea on power handling but would surprise me if it couldnt do 4kw continuous without significant heat. Thanks everyone for ideas and suggestions.
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Hi all! :) Ive been busy putting up another array, Done with that now, it looks horrible but it puts out power and I got it cheap. Its 3kw rated but bubbles trapped under glass. Already seen it putting out 2260w so am happy. The catch is the outputs arent uniform so i cant do a string, therefore very large wire 76v and buck mppt.
Anyway, I'm more posting about the interesting transformer in previous post.
It came out of a multi kw UPS and not sure if this transformer was the recharger part of it? It weighs 75lbs or 34kg. It appears to have been connected as an autotransformer. Has anyone seen this done for a bat charger or inverter? Certainly it lacks isolation yet wouldnt it boost efficiencies? Interested in your thoughts. I'm attaching a pic showing original design connection and a possible way to use it as a 48v inverter for 120/240 but NOT split phase. There are 6 windings. All are same size wire equivalent of #8awg good for 40amps continuous at least.
Edit; the previous post mentioned 4 parallel primaries, that was incorrect. After cutting leads apart I found windings as drawn in top of pic.
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Lighthunter, auto transformers are generally not recommended for permanent connections. You have mentioned the isolation issue, if the transformer developed a short it could be catastrophic in the least and deadly at worst.
If it were used as a battery charger and developed a short it could destroy the batteries, with catastrophic results and possible fire.
As an inverter, well a short could also put high voltage onto your batteries, panels, and regulators.
I would not use an autotransformer for anything other than test equipment.
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Yeah that bothered me too. The unit is better suited for another application (buck circuit). It could still be used for an inverter though, the windings are not internally connected and have paper separating layers, therefore the 30v windings could be isolated from all others giving possibility of 48v /120v isolated conversion.
I had never even thought about how autotransformers work and the whole concept hit me in the face like a wet carp. Turns out the power companies use them extensively where they dont need isolation. One source i found said conversion losses are .24%. and they use less copper to do it. Better not give pj any ideas or they'll be putting them in their inverters boasting evn bigger watt numbers ;D I shouldnt pick on them, they make a good inverter considering the price.
Thanks for the thoughts! :)
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It is pointless using an auto transformer, as the resistance losses would kill it off too easily.
Remember, you are using a 48v to 240v/120v conversion, so for whatever the thickness of the secondary winding may be, you should have the corresponding mass of wire on the primary in the ratio of the voltage.... ie if you have 10mmsq of wire in the secondary, you should have at least 80mmsq of wire in the primary ( 240v) It is ok to go as low as 35mmsq of primary if your duty cycle is low... but can you imagine it as a auto transformer? The whole thing would need to be wound at 50mmsq, and it would still get hot under decent load, as there would be 100 turns of wire in there.
So the low losses in coupling would be more than wiped out with all that copper.. if you could fit it in..... not a useful step forward I don't think.
You could perhaps change the winding thickness when you got to the secondary part..... but the isolation would still be nice to have..... if I were to do it, a total rewind would be on the cards, as you have a lot of core there.
The losses will still be about twice for the same power as a toroid one ( twice as much steel)
............oztules
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Thanks for the advice oztules. In case anyone is interested, here are some details of an original pj toroid taken from a 24/110 6000lf.
Primary 12 strand 13awg 23 turns , .756vlts/trn 286uS 17.38AC drive volts .0035R calculated
Secondary 2 strand 13awg 148 turns 8.72uS 112vAC .1146R measured.
Used in 24v application power efficiency/loss @1500w.
Magnetizing. 15w.
Primary 60A 25v loss 12.6w.
Secondary 13.4A 112v. loss 20.57w.
Total loss 48.17w
Efficiency 96.8%
With primary converted to 48v.
Magnetizing 15w.
Primary 30A 50v loss 6.3w.
Secondary 13.4A 112v loss 20.57w.
Total loss 41.87w.
Efficiency 97.2%
I was surprised to find that it was the secondary that needed more copper.
The primary is good to 2200w in 48v application with less than 15w loss at 45amps.
It looks like 50w of dissipation is enough for this toroid package. Of course with better cooling it could maybe dissipate more. When i used it at 1800w it only got to 160F 71C and it had added windings contributing to heat so in original form with adeqate cooling it may get close to 2kw continuous witbout exceeding 85C
Attached study done on toroid. The example in appendix A shows a 4kva toroid dissipating approx 100w at a fairly warm temp.
Edit, attachment didnt work for some reason. It was a 4kw toroid. Core size 22.86cm OD x 7.62cm H at full load, dissipating 105w at a steady temp of 185F or 85C
The primary resistance was calculated from approx number turns and measuring wire size using 13awg 2.001R/1000feet. The secondary resistance was measured by using seconday in series with a load and measuring voltage drop. The toroid was not disassembled to obtain information,12 primary windings were counted but 2secondary wdgs is guess based on measured resistance.
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I purchased one the these Power Jack inverter (8000w 240v version) about a year ago and I have to say for the money I'm quite pleased. Runs 1500w with room to spare for a fridge or something to startup at the same time without any issue. The one serious drawback is the standby load which I'd like to fix before I take it off grid.
I'm running a split phase 240v 12v version of the Power Jack which have two invertors so I assume I need to choke both sides legs of transformer, correct? Also, could you suggest what size, type, etc. of choke I'd need to build? I know some about electronics but not nearly enough to tackle to figuring out what size of choke I need?
Thanks in advance.
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Hi Elajambejr :) Page 1 of this thread has what you need. Still an Ecore with 3 1/2 turns in series with primary connection to one of the heatsinks. Your specific inverter is not unique to the application of this. One lead wire of your ecore inductor will connect to heatsink while the other wire is connected to one or multiple toroid primaries. With 12v inverter make provision for the necessary current as 1500w equals 125A. If you are seriously considering using this unit for a daily runner off grid you would be doing yourself a favor to upgrade to 24v or higher to reduce problems and increase load capacity. These units can be converted to a higher voltage quite easily with some electrical ability.
Quote " version of the Power Jack which have two invertors so I assume I need to choke both sides legs of transformer, correct? "
You do not have 2 inverters with 12v version but you do very likely have 2 toroid transformers (round heavy), No, you only need choke on one side feeding both transformers.
Have a great day!
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Hello everyone.
Thanks for all the really useful information.
I request your opinion.
I am aslo an islander (40 x 100 mile island in the caribbean).
I got a power jack low frequency 8000w split phase inverter too.
ac electricity is 60hz here.
I need to hard wire the ac 220-240v to a water pump which is 3 amps but is about 100 feet away off grid.
I checked the terminals and L1+N=110v ac and L2+N=11v ac
I am planing on using a 8AWGauge(3.26 mm or 8.36mm2) to hardwire the connections.
The question is:
1) Do I connect one to each L1 and L2 and the ground to the N?
or do I just connect the L1+L2 ?
2) Do I use a thicker wire?
3) once I use this hardwire does that mean I cannot use the 110v ac outlet receptacle?
Does anyone have a picture of a hardwired 240v ac power jack inverter?
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Treat the output as 220v center tapped transformer.... so for 220v use L1 and L2 and ignore N completely....it is effectively the center tap. So you can run the pump through L1 and L2, and still use the 110v output to drive different loads as well.
...........oztules
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hey ! thanks!
I will do just that
You have another's fan in the caribbean .
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Hi guys,
I just bought a campervan with a powerjack 3000lf already installed (I didn't even know what an inverter was before I saw this thing), it's running a fridge, radio and laptop intermittently (and very occassionally aircon) off a small 85ah battery and drains it pretty fast. I've read that they can be made more efficient while idling, what sort of transformer do I need for this? Will this make ittmore efficient when being used aswell? Or is it not even worth it for this small system? Am I better off just turning it off when I'm not using anything on 240v? I'd rather not have to dig it out from under the seats to switch it off and on all the time though.
As you can see I know nothing about electronics :)
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Try and measure the current drain as it is.
Some models are already down in the sub 25w range..... if so thats already done..... if not you just need the ferrite coil you see in the article ( first post )
.............oztules
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Hello all, I have a split phase PJ 8000W inverter that I am wanting to use to feed a critical load panel which is also tied in to the grid through an automatic transfer switch. The home is in the US so its a single phase 120/240 set up. Im having trouble making sense of the instructions in the manual. I was going to use a separate stand alone battery charger and Im not interested in any ups function, so I was thinking I don't need to connect anything to the ac input terminals. Is that correct or do I need to connect any grounds or neutrals in the ac inputs in order to get the correct voltage from the outputs? Secondly: should I be connecting my output to L1 and L2 to get my 220v? Will my 120v loads in the critical load panel get the neutral from the one thats already there from the grid? Thank you.
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Your split phase system ( hangover from edison) is strange left over from the past.... but it is what it is.
L1 and L2 from the PJ are simple outputs from the transformer.... N is the centertap of that transformer. Treat it exactly like the street transformer... same thing.
So L1 and L2 on the PJ is 220/240v The N is center tap or neutral and earth
Over there the N is the center tap of the utility transformer and grounded at the panel as well... you still need to also connect your N from the Pj to the panel... or the 110v appliances will go haywire.... ie. they will have no low impedance return path.... and try to get a return through each other.. could be nasty.
This pic is from wikipedia, and shows the transformer ( utility ) from the street.... PJ is treated the same way, center tapped secondary transformer.
CC BY-SA 3.0, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?curid=5974288
[attachimg=1]
..........oztules
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Thank you so much for your quick response. I was worried about connecting a neutral to the N terminal because of this in the manual:
Note: Can not L1+N+L2.
Should I connect the neutral to the N on the upper terminal block or the lower?
Is it ok for the inverter neutral to be connected to the grid neutral at the same time or should it be switched along with L1 and L2 in the transfer switch?
I installed a ground wire from the main service that I attached to the inverter case. Is that the only ground I need?
And lastly, Is it ok to not have an ac input since I won't be using the charge and ups function?
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I use mine without it being connected to the grid. This means, however, that the output is not phase-tied to the grid and that upon switchover, if instant, there can be nasty transient jumps. I got over this by using a switchover box that you'll find on earlier pages of this thread.
Best wishes
OTW
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Howdy OTW!
Question regarding transfer switch. I have used a DPDT 100 amp contactor to switch between grid and inverter using the power output from PJ to engage the contactor. A thought came to me that the PJ may not be able to kick in quick enough to absorb all the appliances and AC that were running at the time. Should I put a delay on make timer in between to give the inverter time to come up to power? The case would be if the PJ dropped out for some reason and I reset it locally or remotely and the contactor will re-engage. Of course the major appliances will go into a 5 minute delay on power loss but I don't want to blow up the PJ. I can also add a delay thru triggers on my Cayenne app or thru software. Either way I would like you educated opinion.
SN
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Hello members, first post here. :D
I was looking at inverters and the power jack looked the goods, so I googled it and found this site.
I want it for a caravan, I noticed the no load current was an issue earlier on.
I know ebay sellers tell BS anyway so I'd just like to ask how this one stacks up?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/8000W-LF-Pure-Sine-Wave-Power-Inverter-DC24-to-AC240V-Battery-Charger-UPS-/262839524195?hash=item3d3274db63:g:hBYAAOSwFV9XxnwX
Has anyone got some feedback on the no load current of this model?
Cheers Mark
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Here been plenty folks had success with the PJ. Read the thread where oztules states "look who bought a power jack" much has improved in the design but the wattage claims are still overstated.
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Hello there.
I just picked up a 12V, 8KW, SP, LF Powerjack inverter. I also have a 5KW but it was having trouble starting a few things around the house. Turns out the 8KW is no better at this. I am running in split phase connected directly to my main panel with an interconnect. I have 2.4KW of solar going into a 1200AH battery bank.
I have improved the cooling by installing a 200 CFM fan with independent control switch that runs when the inverter is on. It pushes out a lot of hot air but on 2-3KW loads I am still getting thermal shutdown. I know its the Toroidal getting hot. Is their any way to cool this thing down without rewinding it? I know nothing about winding my own despite all have I read in this thread. I noticed the tranny has these huge rubber rings on top and bottom and they seem to trap quite a bit of heat inside. Would removing these help in anyway or are they insulators to prevent the tranny from touching the case?
Also is it possible to run the tranny I have in the 5KW unit in parallel with the tranny in the 8KW unit? With this improve anything? I have noticed that some 8KW Powerjack units have 2 trannys while mine just has one. I was thinking about putting the guts inside a square metal case I have and add the tranny from the 5KW unit.
I appreciate the work in this thread. Took me a few days to read through it all and its useful info for sure.
Sean
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Hi Sean, I have a 5kw 12 volt powerjack at my shed. It has problems too with large loads, it definitely will not run 5kw loads. It will not start my air compressor at all but will run all my other power tools. Oztules pointed out that in trying to start the compressor (1.5kw, which would draw around10kw to start) it would be trying to pull 2000 amps from the batteries. Not much chance.
My solution was to get a 12 volt air compressor designed for pumping 4wd tyres up. I then plug it into my compressors air tank and then presto I have a 12 volt portable compressor for my air tools.
On the issue of cooling the transformer. Depends on you application. You could always do something really radical and mount the transformer outside the powerjack case.
It could be mounted in a position where air flow could be improved such as hung vertically , or better still in a tank of transformer oil.
I do suspect that your batteries will not last long if you keep pulling massive loads though.
The only other way is to change to a 24, or 48 volt battery configuration and get another powerjack for the big loads.
Others will have some more ideas I am sure.
Cheerio
Pete
Oh yep I run a powerstar w7 at the house but with a inductor as per Oztules design. That limits the standby current to around 3.5 amps. I only turn it on when I want it. I have 12volt lighting, and a 1 volt refrigerator.
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Pete, thank you for the reply. You are right about the high amp draw for the those big start ups. What I ended up doing was adding an AC jump start capacitor to the Air conditioner and the Power Jack has no problems starting the air conditioner now. What I have noticed is that the Watt meter on the inverter is way too high. Right now I have an 800 watt draw on the AC side and the inverter is saying its a 2300 watt draw. I am monitoring the DC side draw and its right in line with the AC draw so I am not sure why the inverter is thinking its drawing 3 times.
I am really curious about the rubber on the trannies. I would like to remove it. I am not sure if they put it there to prevent shock during shipping or if it acts like an insulator. Either way it traps a lot of heat.
I have considered moving to a 24 volt system. It would require a large investment though as I would need a new controller and contactors. The battery change over is not a big deal. I just dont want to invest the money and have the new inverter behave the same as the 12 volt does now.
I'm still very curious if I can add this second tranny from the 5KW unit to the 8KW unit.
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Hi Sean, please tell more about the capacitor you added to the air conditioner. I have experience in electric motors and some have start capacitors , some have run capacitors and some have both. But have not heard of a Jump Start Capacitor.
Can you expand on what you did, eg, how you connected it, and also what size capacitor you used?
Thanks
Pete
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SUPCO SPP6 Relay/Capacitor Hard Start Kit . I just ran it inline with the starter capacitor that is already in the unit. What I noticed was the first starts we're hard but after that it starts like normal. It pulls about 8 amp through the wires to help start it.
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Thanks for that information Sean, I have not been able to find a supplier of them in Australia yet, but will keep looking. I will also see if I can find the information on how they work and maybe make one for my compressor too. It almost starts but not quite.
Cheerio
Pete
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I am really curious about the rubber on the trannies. I would like to remove it. I am not sure if they put it there to prevent shock during shipping or if it acts like an insulator. Either way it traps a lot of heat.
I have considered moving to a 24 volt system. It would require a large investment though as I would need a new controller and contactors. The battery change over is not a big deal. I just dont want to invest the money and have the new inverter behave the same as the 12 volt does now.
I'm still very curious if I can add this second tranny from the 5KW unit to the 8KW unit.
Hi, regarding rubber on trannies, I simply removed bolt on mine and stood trannie donut up so fan blows air through the middle. I set the one piece of rubber under it and the other piece over it. The cover goes on with an inch or so gap between 2 cover halves, this can be closed up however you like. I think it removes heat much better but then ive changed so many things ive nothing to compare it to. Started out as 24v 110v 6000lf (realistically 2kw). Now is 48v double tranny sharing a 120v coil while paralleling the other (2) 110v coils. Also a shared 12v boost coil to bring thee110s to 120. for a resulting inverter of 48v 120/240 split phase 4kw continuous.
Yes you should be able to pop the 5k tranny into the 8k box along side the other. If they both have 12v primaries and you want to stay 12 just pair up the large yellow and black leads for parallel primaries and then pair up the small black leads and for safety do not connect the red lead. Hook up power and turn it on at this point and measure AC voltage between the two red leads (the one not yet connected from add in tranny and the original red lead on board that comes from original tranny.)
This measured voltage must be 0v AC ANY VOLTAGE ABOVE .5vAC DO NOT CONNECT. A light bulb can work too instead of meter (120v) any glow and its a no do not connect.
Have fun ask questions if in doubt and theres nothing wrong with leaving things as they are if you are happy with it.
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Lighthunter,
You are a wealth of information. I am still learning about these inverters and circuits in general. You have some great ideas and I will give them a try. Can I still run this in split phase adding the second tranny? I currently have it running into my main breaker to the house.
Also, realistically will I see any improvement to heat or output?
Thanks again
Sean
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Can I still run this in split phase adding the second tranny?
I wouldnt do it any other way (unless of course i lived where split phase isnt used)
I dont know specs of each unit you want to team. If specs are all same (volts in,volts out,split etc) then ans is yes you will still have split with more power available.
One thing must not b forgotten tho, with 12v conversion the 12v current is phenomenal.
applying ohms law at face value, 2kw of AC power is 2000divide by 10.5v = 190Amps. Now double that for 4kw so 400A DC for the fets to carry. They have some pretty great specs like 180A per and there are 24, right? Well its an H bridge so you only get to count 1/4 or 6 pieces, then the to220 package they seal em in is only realistically good for 100 give or take an everybody has an opinion, so you have 600A to play with but they will make some heat at even 400 continuous. So keep in mind fet limits.
When considering connecting transformers together think of each winding as a battery for purposes of connecting. You can connect 2 batteries + to + and - to - and get double the current capacity so long as voltages are identical. Same is true for transformers. You can also stack voltages in series on a transformer same as you can with batteries, taking into account current ability of windings, polarity and voltages.
Im guessing since you asked, one unit is split phase and the other is not. In that case you could add a winding to the non-split unit and make it identical to other unit. Or you could just add it on as it is. That would beef up power capacity of one of the two split phases while leaving the other with no change. That is certainly an option. Then if you had mostly 120v loads, you would balance with more loads on the stronger side. Unbalancing a split phase really hurts efficiency though, thats another subject.
Also, realistically will I see any improvement to heat or output?
That all depends on your use and setup. If you are normally under 2kw and above only for short spurts chances are you dont have a heat issue and if you do its nothing a high performance fan wouldnt fix. Longer higher output, yeah anything you do to improve cooling helps.
Power handling? The resistance of the primary winding and the lead wires are the biggest limiting factors of power capacity. To get around that problem, you either configure things for higher voltage or lower the resistance by paralleling primary windings and lead wires with more copper. So yes you will imlrove power and efficiency (under higher loads) by adding another transformer. Not sure how u think it b expensive to go up in voltage. I think a 24 or 48v cntrl board can b had for $65 cant remember for sure an 24 irf4110 fets are maybe $15. If you really hate working with boards, you can use small side cutter an clip all 3 fet leads and bolt new fets in and solder overlap leads. Then again if the fets you now have can handle the voltage you wouldnt even have to change those. There are always many options and choices. You have to go with what your needs are and what you are comfortable with. A running solar setup is always better than one thats not. Upgrades can be well worth it but I think Solomon wrote in the Bible somewhere that its good to grab on to the one without letting go of the other. I guess i never asked anyone what that meant but in our day you might apply it by leaving one inverter original and taking the lesser value unit and modifying it with higher voltage, new fan (some are like tubines) and a winding modified toroid. The single phase units can be made into split without much trouble.
All fun stuff :)
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Hey All!
I'm looking for the mod that allows the pj lcd panel stay on all the time
Thanks
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It's a long time since I played with the PJ.
I used to use a 100r resistor from the +5v ( probably pin 2, top left second in) to the LCD back light pin.... probably second last pin ( 2 in from left )
But it will be easy to find which one. A 100r from the +5v can go to any other pin without any real damage I think.
Here is a pic of the 48v solar controller.... note the 56r resistor from the plus down to L1 on the right hand side... thats the same sort of thing exactly
.[attach=1]
The pins 64 to 74 represent the outer pins of the lcd screen ( the 4 pins that would have been between the 69 and 70 are not shown/used)
Hope that helps a bit.
..........oztules
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Awesome Thanks!
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I'm slow on the mark answering a few things. You can mix a 8000 and a 5000 transformer but check if there is a voltage difference and add turns to the 5000 transformer to bring it up to the same voltage. It works and makes a difference.
The 12V units are simply limited by 12V in starting big things. Go to 24V or 48V
As for switching over between grid power and inverter power, within this thread I published the diagram of the double pole switch using contactors which enables absolutely safe switching and is as close to zero crossing and minimum downtime for equipment not to notice a glitch in the supply.
Question - I've been helping someone using solar panels as primary power with a battery bank that's under-specified more in the nature of voltage stabilisation rather than power storage. I've advised that the inverter should switch off as soon as the battery voltage goes below 25V on a 24V system. Buried in this thread are details of the two resistors which govern the battery low cut-off voltage setting on the inverter . . . is there anyone familiar enough with this thread to point me to the post . . . and better simply to be able to identift which resistors and what value one might be changed to?
Many thanks
Best wishes
OTW
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I have just put my powerjack stuff in the classifieds if anyone is interested. I am open to offers.
Cheers,
Sam
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Going thru my new 2017 15kw PJ I wondered what the advantage is of 2 main boards over 1 and why is my toroid so loud. I haven’t removed the cover to see if it is potted but if it’s not could that be it and what could I pot it with. For this unit the fans are 24v, loud and throw some cfm’s. I’m installing an Rpi3 to control these fans, monitoring temps thru a server.
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Hi Oz, just wondering if you are still using that regulator you mention on the first page. If possible could you do a short article on how to build one. I have moved and am planning on a new system here, I already have a Powerstar W7 and PowerJack inverter, both 12 volts, and 600 amp hours of batteries. So I will get a bunch of panels soon, planning on a 1.5 to 2kw system and regulators seem completely over the top expensive. Yours looks pretty simple and sounds like it works well.
Hope all is well over there on the island. We can almost see you, haven't had a clear enough day yet, but we are high up on Mount Barrow, so you never know.
Cheers
Pete
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Yes Pete, they are all over the island now... so I should do an article on them.
They can control as much as you want. just keep adding fets.
I now use a board that can be used for DC control, " whatever voltage at whatever current ", and can also drive a GTI for reverse grid feed... which I recommend for 12v systems to keep the solar panel currents down, and has mppt as a bonus, that really works better than the DC:DC ones.
........oztules
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Hi Oz I saw some of the posts on the GTI inverter regulator setup. Just wondering how they are working, and also concerned that it is adding another layer of complication and more things to turn into smoke. As you have it running you can hopefully say more on the reliability factor
Pete
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hi there few year later in canada ... here some photo of 2018 version of 6kw 24v lf psw have some question i dont really know electronic like few there so be gentle. i want to know if mosfets need heat to work better or if i m able to get them at 20c even with big loads it s the best because i m thinking to put liquid cooling on them , and make the toroid mod and if it s easy gonna try the grid tie mod but not really need it till 3 year (probably just get on grid when i ll produce a way more than i can use) so probably never. for the toroid what else use big toroid like that (gonna see if i can find one at scrap). want to know to if the 15kw board fit with what i have and if someone can send photo of 8kw 2018 version to see the difference would be cool sry if i put lot of photo right now showing inside of 6000w 2018 24v lf spw on the top view the power board is removed and want to know if in this 6000w model i got the big toroid or the small and the kw usable with this one thanks for all info on this forum by the way and sry if it s hard to read i m french
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by the way another newbie question about the mosfets they are ru75n08r 660 2j642 do they are the same than that http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/445976/RUICHIPS/RU75N08R.html and if yes do those one fit in there just by unsold the older and put those one (in case of mosfets burn without collateral damage) http://www.ruichips.com/pic/RU190N08R.pdf they look like to have more capability and another question why there is ferrite ring on center leg of mosfets negative side and don t on positive side just for learn a little
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Cheap replacement fet I use would be HY4008.
High frequency suppression is the ferrite... no idea why and how they use it in this case.
Your transformer is too small for 6kw continuous, more like 2.5-3kw, with short 6-16kw surge.
RULE no1... keep fets as cool as you can, and the same for the big electro capacitors.
........oztules
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nice thx for the answer and for your post. I m guessing do it is possible to put the toroid in tank of circulating non conductive oil, and do it really need to be at 70c (temperature) to get the best result asking because in this case i will have to put sensor and flow controlling on my set up and for capacitor do those one can fit in or the uf must be the exactly the same? thanks again to take time to answer all our question https://www.ebay.com/itm/22000uF-80V-Electrolytic-Screw-Capacitor-Audio-Amp-50x80mm-Power-Supply-105-/152818478976?hash=item2394b0ef80 i know they will not fit cause of screw but it s not the question want to know if they fit or if i have to get 18000uf exactly like the original
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This thread has become very much a resource for the PowerJack inverters and is so comprehensive that it's intriguing that no-one's added to it.
That photo of the 6kW PJ unit with the AS2 transformer is exactly what has been going wrong at PowerJack and possibly increasingly for a long time.
I've got a 5kW unit with the same transformer. :-) And that transformer is fit for only 2kW continuous with 3kW for intermittent use.
PJ developed what looked like a superb 15000 unit beyond their old unit with three transformers. The three transformer unit was good and delivered 6kW happily. The new 15000 unit had double sets of power boards and one big transformer. This could deliver the goods, probably 8kw at least.
I bought two, one to sell and one to keep and use myself.
The new units were heavy beasts and were inadequately packaged, so one was damaged in transit. Cher very kindly sent me replacements of the damaged connectors etc.
Through ebay someone bought one of the units and he came to collect it, to send to his house in Africa.
I demonstrated and tested the unit, and at 2kW the inverter failed with LEDs on the power boards starting flashing. We switched to the other unit which was fine. It went to Africa and served well. Until, that is, someone connected the output of a generator without a proper changeover switch so that the generator and inverter output were connected together. They bought new parts through Cher and fitted them and the inverter worked unreliably and did odd things.
Meanwhile Cher sent me replacement electronics to fit into my unit which had failed at 2kW. It was a lot of work to fit all the mosfet boards and some screws were impossibly tight. When finished, on test the inverter failed again at 2kW. I assume there's a dodgy winding insulation in the transformer.
Cher was highly embarrassed. PJ themselves were their usual selves for which they have earned a reputation, and after a couple of months Cher has left PJ.
Meanwhile on my own installation I have a 200m cable between the battery installation and the house. A junction box had become damaged allowing ingress of water, causing insulation to break down. I had intermittent brown outs which recovered and should have investigated but didn't. Eventually the cable end caught fire in the junction box (outside so not dangerous) and shorted, and this blew the electronics of my 8000LF to which I'd added an extra transformer. Luckily I had a spare set which I have nearly finished fitting.
However this caused me to enquire of another contact of PJ who told me that the 8000LF 24V version wasn't in production and they were only making "4000" units at the moment. I told them that this was regrettable and the lady said that they would be reconsidering restarting production of the 8000LF.
However, there is another company making inverters with sound ethics, that specifies their inverters correctly, Solinba. I have one of their 24V 3000W units on test at the moment and it's flawless. A lady by the name of Lily with the company is very helpful and I'm trying to encourage her to get the company to build a 6-7kW unit.
As a matter of interest she told me that her company uses copper transformers but PJ had turned to aluminium transformer windings. It's for this reason that although there is an Amazon stock remaining of the PJ 8000LF units, I'd wait until seeing what Solinba might come up with.
Best wishes
OTW
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Great Day!
Well, maybe not completely. My PJ has a lcd meter for ac power readings and battery readings. Battery’s readings lcd is from the built in solar charge controller that I didn’t use because it’s limited to 36v. For some time now it’s been showing a low battery reading of 24.7v even though the charge controllers show battery levels were at 27.8v. This week it’s announced low battery at 21v and shuts down inverter, charge controllers show full levels and bms shows all cells at 3.42v average. I remember that cutting r14 I think fixes over volt problems but I wonder if someone knows if there might be some way to adjust this. Is it possible that the charging lcd meter is signaling the control board to shut down?
Any thoughts guys. This Pj was sold as an off grid set and not many sol either but everything else inside is the same.
Thanks