Anotherpower.com Forum
Renewable Energy Questions/Discussion => Automation, Controls, Inverters, MPPT, etc => Topic started by: dochubert on February 17, 2016, 11:43:21 pm
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While re-reading some posts, came across Lighthunter's test of adding a resistor to the resistor stack on the control card.
I want to update info i wrote in post 186 page 13 regarding powerjack.
AC output volt increase. I had stated that cutting trace between R262and R259 and placing
A 470k resistor across the 2 points would result in 5v output increase.
Good news is it does raise v but the bad news is that it makes voltage regulation unstable.
I cant really explain definites but i have seen voltage drift from 118 to 113 without a reason implyingbattery voltage didnt change and load current didnt change during vout drift.There does seem to be less tight voltage regulation with load changes and with batt voltage change as well.
All in all, if you need to change output voltage of PJ inverter, there might be a better way.
Lighthunter,
I've been thinking about this one for awhile, and wondered if you had ever found a definitive way to adjust output voltage. It seems, at least for use in the states, that all the powerjacks have a bit low output voltage. My 48v split phase unit puts out about 114v that pulls down another 2 or 3 volts under more load. The TVs, lights, and the fridge don't seem to care too much but the microwave hates it. It runs and seems to work ok, but sounds like its in pain.
Anyway, I'd like to get that output up closer to the 120v the grid provides (and quiet that microwave!)
Your idea above seemed to work but you noted that it made things unstable. Did you try any variations? Did the added resistor get hot?
Anyone else have any success with adjusting up the output?
While staring blankly at the picture of the resistor added in as Lighthunter tried, a thought hit that maybe the instability he experienced was from the small lead size of the added resistor compared to the relative size of the current path provided by the resistor stack. It did seem to accomplish the goal, just not reliably. Possibly a higher wattage resistor, or even a surface mount soldered heavily across the ends of 259 and 262, so there was no "weak point" in the stack, just an increase of stack resistance.
Why a resistor stack anyway? Why not just one or two resistors of appropriate value to the task? Spread the heat load? Cheaper?
The more I learn about these things, the more I realize how little I know.
Well, maybe this has all been explored and discussed and I just haven't found the right post topic yet. If so someone please kindly point me to it.
Thanks for a great forum
dochubert
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dochubert! its been awhile since I,ve heard from you,
obviously, i missed this post from you.
Yes! the additional transformer on output feeding back an
adjusted voltage to the PJ control works flawlessly.
In my setup the PJ is outputing to two separate toroids primaries.
with series secondaries producing 240v. The external transformer.
then is connected across the 240v and feeds back on an isolated.
winding the 110v the pj control needs, to be in balance. This mod
does cause the pj control to drive primaries 1 volt higher than original.
design. In some cases with low battery voltage it could cause a problem.
in my case i went to lithium bats which jumped me up to 25-26v under.
load vs 23-24 lead acid giving headroom for the output voltage change.
If you arent using a grid tie inverter connection though it may not ever.
be a problem. This one is always right around 239 now and the 120 outlets.
are so close i cant tell when they are on grid vs inverter by measuring voltage.
117-120 and the 117 onlyhappens under light load usually 120 under heavy load.
Please feel free to ask questions if i can help!
(one more thing, this mod would interfere with battery charging.
feature which i dont use per Oztules advice so it isnt a problem.
if need bat charger then im sure there is a solution, i just didnt.
worry about it.
cheers LH
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Hi lighthunter,
I haven't been posting much lately; little to report, and busy getting the house ready to sell. But interesting timing on your reply here, as I just recently tried the 470k resistor idea of yours. Unfortunately, I got the same results you got. Voltage is up to where I want it (120/240), just not reliable regulation. It drifts all around from 120 to 116. The microwave is happier, and nothing else seems to mind the drifting, but I don't think I can live with that instability when I go fulltime offgrid. I used a surface mount resistor soldered heavily across the ends of the two existing resistors to minimize any chance of a weak current path, but it made no difference.
I'm going to start to look for a transformer to try your better solution. As I understand it, I want a secondary output that is 2-3 volts less than what the pj is actually outputting to fool it into raising the pj output by the 2-3 volts difference. Right?
Oh, and I don't have any plans at all to use the battery charging mode of the powerjack, so that won't be an issue for me either.
Thanks for the reply, and I have no doubt that I will have a question or two when I get started on the transformer mod, so thanks in advance!
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Hi Dochubert!
Quote (It drifts all around from 120 to 116.)
Thats not too bad... i left mine that way for quite a spell, defenitely better.
than the low voltage. My grid tie was the main one that complained about it.
It is odd behavior though and certainly not ideal.
Quote
(As I understand it, I want a secondary output that is 2-3 volts less than what the pj is actually outputting to fool it into raising the pj output by the 2-3 volts difference. Right?)
Correct. I like to test the transformer by wiring a plug in cord to the winding and.
plug it in to 120 or 220, the voltage you desire, and measure the output winding
to verify it outputs whatever the pj control board measures now before modification.
This way you get to see the results before you make changes. Its easier to find xfmrs with.
multiple windings and add/subtract them together than to find a transformer with the
precise value u need. Also dont be afraid to try heavier transformers. They can cost less.
watts to idle than a small one. Also E-cores can be good. Generally, i agree that toroidal.
ones are more efficient but efficient EI cores also exist. Example, I have a 8KW 200lb.
unit from a scrapped ups that scarcely uses 40 watts to run. Ive found computer equipment
transformers to be the best. The one I am using for this purpose is about 15lbs and it takes
5watts to idle. Its cold to the touch after on all day. Generally battery charger xfmrs are power hogs on the other hand.
Blessings to you & family, hope moving goes smoothly! :)
LH
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Hi lighthunter, and thanks for the info. Haven't picked a transformer yet, but soon....
Some interesting observations;
On another thread I showed my temperature controls setup. One sensor on the mainboard heatsink and another on the first coil nearest the power switch end of the powerjack. With these controls, and partially why I chose this particular control card, is constant temperature readout. So I can now see exactly what temp the heatsink and first coil are running at and adjust the fan control accordingly.
What does this have to do with output voltage control?
Turns out the modification of adding the 470k ohm resistor to the resistor stack has changed the range of voltage drop across r14. The same r14 I have been trying to determine a proper value for in determining the high battery voltage trip point. Unintended consequences.
So, the added 470k resistor moved the range about 3 volts lower, which works against me, making the unit trip at lower battery voltage. Luckily, I don't plan to use this mod for long, opting for the transformer method discussed above.
Also, I noticed that heatsink temperature affects the voltage drop across the R14 resistor on the control board. As heatsink temp rises, so does the voltage drop across r14, meaning its bringing the pj closer to a trip off with higher temps. When the fan kicks on I can watch the voltage drop decrease right along with the temp decrease. Presumably, my temp controls will prevent heatsink temp from rising enough (with the 470k mod removed) to cause tripoffs, but its troubling just the same. I lowered the setoint a couple degrees to turn the fan on sooner in the meantime, because I want to observe for a few more days before changing it. (and don't have a suitable transformer yet anyway)
One idea is to remove the original heatsink sensor from the heatsink and maybe stick it to the inside of the clamshell. My independent control will be turning on the fan anyway, and the control board will be happy thinking the heatsink is running nice and cool, and it won't be affecting the high voltage trip point any significant amount anymore. Sounds good. Might try that one....
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I spent some time last evening looking at transformers on ebay. Not too good for choices there, but was hoping to go cheap, and not too sure what I want at this point. Lighthunter, your control board on your powerjack is obviously a 110v type, while mine is 230v. That seems to be limiting my choices, at least with cheap stuff from ebay. I am going to need a xfmr that inputs 230v and outputs about 220v to make my pj output ~240v. I wish I was an accomplished transformer winding expert like Oztules, then I'd just custom wind what I need.
Lighthunter, have you used a clamp on ammeter to read current in your transformer secondary going to the maint connections?
Maybe this is a dumb idea and I'm missing something, but if the maint circuit of the pj doesn't use too much current, couldn't we just insert a resistor instead of the transformer between the output connections and the maint connections? Not sure what value to use to drop voltage 10v or so, but I'm not seeing why that wouldn't work. It might affect the load control aspect of the maint circuit some, but wouldn't think too much if the ohms value isn't too high. If you think it might work, I would love to hear your best guess for resistance value to use.
I'd appreciate your (or anybody else's) thoughts on this
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Well, assuming the resistor idea isn't feasible, (and I guess it's not since nobody chimed in with "Gee, why didn't I think of that?), I went to the local industrial surplus house this morning and didn't find any multi tap transformers of suitable specs, but did find a 115v to 230v step up unit fairly cheap. Wanted a 230v input, but this will do I suppose. Brought it home and found its output is already 6 volts higher than even with the pj output. Couldn't be lower, of course. That would have helped. ::)
(Murphy is never far from my side)
Anyway, started taking it apart. Have begun unwinding secondary turns. Winding mods always seemed too much for me, so avoided that sort of thing, but I guess I can handle this one. Figured I would start with 5 turns removed and see what my output is then. Also, before I get to testing I have to put the unmodified control board back in the pj.
Have company coming soon so have to quit till later, so thought I'd get a quick update in here.
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Measure the difference that 5 turns makes, to get an idea of turns/volt or volts per turn etc... then you know how much to remove or add to get whatever you want.
..............oztules
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Dochubert,
Quote:
"have you used a clamp on ammeter to read current in your transformer secondary going to the maint connections? Maybe this is a dumb idea and I'm missing something, but if the maint circuit of the pj doesn't use too much current, couldn't we just insert a resistor instead of the transformer between the output connections and the maint connections? Not sure what value to use to drop voltage 10v or so, but I'm not seeing why that wouldn't work. It might affect the load control aspect of the maint circuit some, but wouldn't think too much if the ohms value isn't too high. If you think it might work, I would love to hear your best guess for resistance value to use. I'd appreciate your (or anybody else's) thoughts on this."
I have not measured the current as you say and I would expect it to be milliamps ,undetectable with hall effect clamp meter. Just to clarify, how I see what you are describing. (measure the current between lead wires to maintx and maintx onboard terminal.) As long as battery charging
is not going on, then that current would only be enough to supply the sense feedback circuit on pj control board. I dont see any good reasons why it wouldnt work to add a resistance. Basically using a voltage divider. I do think it would work i have no idea how well though. voltage references with series resistance and current flow generally tend to be spongy in response to change but it may work better than i think. I will play with the idea when i get a chance. Sounds like you have something going with a transformer and that will get you the "stiff" control you want no surprises.
I only isolated one of the onboard AC connections for this mod, the other I left as it was originally connected. If you need more detail on connections just yell. I will try to watch this thread closer.
Thanks for winding info and grid tie info oztules!
LH
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Thanks Oztules and lighthunter,
Probably be tomorrow afternoon before I get back to it, but yeah, I figured 5 turns would tell me how much more to take off to get output down to 220v. Glad to hear I'm on the right track.
Lighthunter, the reason I asked about current was to verify my own guess that it would be minimal. That means almost any wattage transformer would do the job of sending a signal to the maint connections, which means future versions could possibly be small enough to tuck into the pj case. The one I bought today definitely won't be in the case. ;)
The resistor idea should drop the voltage (with the correct value resistance - no idea what resistance to try) and with minimal current flow shouldn't be a problem to the circuit, BUT
Doesn't the maint circuit of the control board also have to do with load control? I'd be afraid adding resistance there might change the range of control or something like adding resistance to the resistor stack changed the hi battery voltage trip point. Unintended consequences. The transformer is a better solution electrically speaking, just not as easy to do and bulkier. Oh, and I planned to float both of the original sets of leads originally connected to the maint connections and just connect the new transformer's secondary. Seemed safer that way.
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That means almost any wattage transformer would do the job of sending a signal to the maint connections,
Seems like the first transformer i had tried was 10w or so. It worked ok and i used it
that way for a long time it ran quite warm. One day i noticed a bad smell and recognized
It as hot/fried circuitry, immediately took case apart to find it was the small transformer.
That was one of the reasons i went with external xfmr. That could have been caused by the xfmr itself though ...shorted turn etc. I really didnt look for detail why i just got rid of it.
Using transformer to change feedback voltage won't affect battery over/under volt at all. Ive never changed my battery v trip point and it still reliably works at 30. Very puzzling the other resistor change affected that??
Power control (over current) **edit** (removed error, explained in next post). This mod defenitely will remove power control unless current through the metal ct can be maintained while only affecting voltage. Might be a few ways to do that. Proper fuse size will help until then. I would try to keep (phase relation/polarity) on maintx terminals same as original design just in case it matters...
Only undesireable result i had was my kwh meter runs backward. I dont think that had anything to do with this mod tho because both my pjs do it and i didnt change voltage in the other. Maybe its as simple as flipping the ct the other direction. I never use that kwh meter anyway so no big deal but u might want to keep an eye on yours just in case.
Have fun!
LH
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"Power control (over current) from Oztules comments is done by ct (small black donut around one of the maintx leads). "
NO...the little black donut CT is for the power meter on the front panel.
The little steel transformer on the mother board is the CT that the unit uses for current control purposes.
I have not noticed too much drift on my units, but my transformers are much bigger and stiffer too... but usually a 5-10% variance in voltage should make little difference to your appliances.
The grid usually moves by 5 -7% during the day too... sometimes by as much as 17v locally, particularly if you have grid ties in the area on a sunny day. ( 240v grid).
Look for soiling or similar on the rear of the mother board, perhaps that is interfering with the very high impedance staircase for voltage stability.
Mine holds at 240-241v under all normal loads. It is a standard PJ 15kw set with the 5v6 zener on the O/V resistor. Only if the grid tie is operating with it does the voltage rise, and then up to 255-257 and the grid tie shuts off anyway.... and we are back to 240v again.
...............oztules
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lighthunter,
Yes the 470k resistor mod definitely changed the hi battery voltage trip setpoint. Temperature of the mainboard heatsink affects it too. Or, more precisely, the signal sent by the temp sensor affects that trip setpoint. I probably wouldn't have realized it if I hadn't installed leads for continuous reading of the voltage drop across r14 and independent fan control that includes continuous temp reading. While battery voltage was staying relatively constant floating at about 57.5, and with the pj under only a light load (my freezer) at about 150 watts I could watch heatsink temp go up or down and r14 voltage drop changed right along with it. The resistor mod moved the setpoint lower and then when the heatsink temp took it down more that was enough to trip the pj offline, even with running a 5 meg resistor for r14. My testing indicates that the 5 meg resistor (without the 470k resistor mod) puts the setpoint about 68v, although I can't say for certain since I'm not willing to run my batteries up that high to cause a trip. Based on r14 voltage drop readings it should be right about 68v. The phantom factor, or those mysterious mid day tripoffs might just be a result of conditions of full batteries and full sun still wanting to charge them, with a hot day thrown in all contributing to heatsink temperature increases that pushes down the setpoint and results in a trip. Although I haven't done it yet, I intend to remove the original heatsink sensor from the heatsink, but leave it plugged into the control card and see what happens. Don't need it to protect the system anyway since my independent fan control works very well and reliably. If the phantom trips go away, problem solved. If not, there's always the zener diode.
But, this post is about output voltage, so back to that;
First operational test failed.
After a bit of cussing and frustration, got enough turns off of the secondary of my transformer to get its output down to about 222v. Planned to start high as I can always take some more turns off, but putting them back on is a bit more difficult. Removed and floated all connections to the maint N and maint X connection points and then connected the secondary of the transformer to the maint N and X connections on the control board. Lighthunter, I know you left the maint N connection connected, and that's probably where I went wrong, but it worried me that with your hookup, there was a direct connection between the primary and secondary of your transformer. I guess it needs it.
When I turned on the powerjack it hummed loudly and the power meter lit and then said 356v. There was never an output to receptacles (no loads connected anyway) or the new transformer, so the pj had no feedback and didn't actually start to output. I shut it off before more than a few seconds had passed to prevent frying anything hopefully. Tried it a second time with same results. Decided to think about it awhile before trying anything else.
I suppose next would be trying it with the maint N connections restored to normal as you did it.
Possibly, the 115v to 230v transformer is the problem, but don't see why that would matter, but maybe it would.... it connects to the neutral (toroid center tap) instead of the other 230v leg. Still shouldn't matter.... If that's the problem, I'll have to find a different transformer and start over
Your statement;
Only undesireable result i had was my kwh meter runs backward
has me puzzled. Are you talking about the meter on the powerjack or something external? analog meter?
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Been thinking about it for awhile, and its got to be that I unhooked the connections from the maint N connection point. So shot myself in the foot. (Should have just followed the directions)
Maint N and P4, which is L1, are the same point in the circuit. They have to connect for feedback to work. The L2 side is maint X separated by the transformer, which does the comparing for voltage control, which is why this mod works in the first place.
Seems to make sense, anyway. Still wonder about the primary and secondary having common connection on the L1 side, but if the pj doesn't mind, why should I?
The only question then is whether it makes any difference that the primary of my transformer is connected to L1 and neutral (center tap of toroid) instead of L2. Guess we'll find out tomorrow in the second operational test. If it does matter then I have to switch to a 230/230 transformer and start over
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Hi Doc Hubert! :)
Yeah i thought about the 120 vs 240 version difference. It shouldnt matter unless they were monitoring the 220v to the maintx terminals. Quick verification, put all leads back where they were b4 you started and turn pj on. Verify output voltage is correct. Then place ac voltmeter on maintx terminals and measure. If this voltage on board terminals measures 220 then you need to keep that voltage (near 220). You may or may not need a different transformer. I suspect the original design brings in 220v to the board, if so, switch the windings around.
1.Start by leaving everything connected as original verify normal operation then power off.
2. jumper connect 120v winding to the 120v leads that go to a 120v outlet or cut cord off a discarded appliance and drive the 120(low volt wdg of your xfmr) then jumper(connect) only one of the 220(high voltt) wdg to maintx-N. Leave the 2nd lead disconnected from anything.
3 now power it up. Measure with ac voltmeter between both of the 220v xfmr leads, hopefully it will read 210v. Now measure between the unconnected lead of your new xfmr and maintx-L this voltage should be less than 10v AC, if it measures like 210 or 250 then power off and swap the two leads of your new transformer. Now power up again and verify only a small volt difference. Ideally if your voltage was 224 between maintx N-L, you will want maybe 208. That will cause feedback to increase output to target 224 again and add 16v to the highv winding 224+16=240v which will bring 110 output to 120v,
After verifying this, then shut power off and rewire the 120v side of your new xfmr to a permanent location near pj transformer, not outlets because if fuse blows you would loose feedback. Then connect the 240 or should i say 208 side of your xfmr to maintx-N and maintx-L. Of course remove all terminals that were on each and bolt wires together creating two separate maintx terminals that do not touch the board. you can float 1 or both of them its up to you, i mainly just did one because i only had 1 bolt small enough to go through those rings and it makes it neater to leave maintxN original. Im not sure theres any benefit in floating the second lead.
Sounds like u will be fine though, you almost had it. Im wondering thougb didnt u say you had an original turns ratio of 120 to 208? I think that would hav been perfect unmodified. Better test and see first, maybe its perfect right now. I'm thinking you dont want higher than 120/240 output as you will drive up idle current and reduce headroom for battery voltage sag. Then you will have to alter turns ratio of the toroids. I'm with you though the 109-112v was just too low. I had trouble with that when i had it out at the solar panel and ran 100' wire to the load center in basement then by the time it got to the garage where freezer is :-[. I have since with oztules advice acquired an awesome 3.5kwgrid inverter that can do 400v mppt and put in basement so i dont loose with long cable run. Next to load center the 112v wasnt a problem and wouldnt have increased mine but i couldnt adjust parameters of my grid tie and wanted to run voltage centered between 120v parameter which was 107-130 (dont know why UL1741 makes em monitor the 120 when its supposed to feed on L1-L2 ::)
Back to your situation, I think you just about have it whipped, the power meter i mentioned is the one on the pj faceplate, it does this by the phase angle of power factor and the current transformer, somehow I inverted it???? Maybe i switched the toroidal transformer leads and its reading a negative power factor instead of positive one???? i will figure it out, thats why i wanted you to be sure to keep polarity of lead wires original.
Regarding the power control, i havent corrected mine but did have a look at the board and the metal current transformer. Looks like i could desolder current transformer from board and mount it on a new board which would allow isolation while leaving secondary side connected to control board. This should restore normal power control including fans. I was wondering why my fans.
never came on anymore. Kind of missed it. I ender up doing my own cooling thing like everybody else. I couldnt complain about fan control on this one, before i bypassed current control it used to come on low speed then faster and a high speed when it went over 2kw. I have no toroids in the box anymore and the fet sinks barely get warm to touch running 1.5-2k all day
CheersLH
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Thanks for the info lighthunter. I will test for secondary polarity as you said before next full test. It didn't matter when both maint wire sets were floated, but with the one side still connected, resulting in a primary and secondary lead (of new transformer) connected to same point electrically, it will matter. My theory at this point in the experiment is that the maint N conn has to remain connected as original or you lose the feedback loop. Can't float em both. That was the main difference between my hookup and yours, besides the step up 115-230 transformer instead of a straight one to one 230-230 model. With secondary turns removed, its now a 115-222 transformer, which is likely still a bit high. When I see what it does to output I will probably take off a few more turns to get 115-220. The goal is powerjack output of 120/240 at no load or light load
Eventually will replace the 115-230 transformer with a 230-230 model anyway so that primary connections can hook directly to the maint leads. Neater and don't have to worry about the ratios because of the step up. Also want to get one small enough physically to tuck into the case and still be able to close the lid for proper airflow. I'm looking at a 50 watt model that is small but should be enough power handling to do the job here.
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Getting old really sucks sometimes. For any close up work or looking at really small stuff I now need strong reading glasses. Even with glasses I get small writing wrong sometimes and it leads to me doing something wrong or just backwards. In this case my thinking was backwards as I misread the maint N and maint L connections points. Maint L is L1 and maint N is L2 actually and not the other way around as I stated in an earlier post. Also I have been referring to maint L as maint X. Poor eyesight again.
All this is leading up to my mis-connecting the polarity test and likely frying my transformer. Fried the wire anyway. Powerjack is undamaged, luckily.
I will be waiting for a 230-230 transformer before any more experimenting with this as the step up version is just too likely to be part of the problem.
Now that I have thoroughly confused the issue, lighthunter which connection did you float? maint N or maint L?
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"which connection did you float? maint N or maint L?"
(MaintL)
So the 120/240 split phase Pj samples the 220 i take it?!..
The nice thing about connecting 3 leads of the new transformer while.
Leaving the pj all original is you get to fine tune it all and make sure it works before.
you actually make the change. In other words the add on transformer is powered
by pj output of your choice 120 or 240 , the output winding can then be meaaured with voltmeter and compared with maintxn and maintxL. the new transformer then should ideally measure only a few volts less than the maintx leads and yes in phase.
Then you can make the changes to the pj circuit. Too much at risk to do it any other way. They are tough though. I'm still on the original fets in both of mine.
Hang in there it will work out perfect!
LH
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Yes, my control board is 230v, so voltage measured across maint L to N is around 230vac. Ordered an isolation 1 to 1, 230v-230v transformer yesterday so will be waiting for that to arrive. Still bothers me that we're connecting the transformer primary to the still connected maint N and the floated maint L wires, then connecting one secondary lead to the same point we just connected a primary lead to, the still connected maint N and the other secondary lead to the now vacant maint L terminal. Shorting primary to secondary, at least on one leg. I realize its working for you or I wouldn't even consider doing that.
Prior to that, for polarity testing, without floating the maint L leads, same connections except leave secondary lead that would have connected to maint L terminal open, not connected to anything.
Measure from open lead to Maint L. If small voltage then polarity is correct, if large voltage, reverse secondary connections and retry.
When verified correct polarity and proper secondary voltage reduction, go to hookup as above for full output test.
Does that all sound correct?
After today's smoke test I have to admit I'm a bit apprehensive. I don't mind too much frying a relatively inexpensive transformer or 2 but would hate to do damage to the powerjack. A good thing they're pretty tough.
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I'll try to post a drawing, I agree, Somehow the commu ication on what wires to hook where is not working out.
LH
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Thanks for all your trouble. I'm sure the problem is with me. Sometimes things don't sink in quite right, but a schematic always helps.
Btw, the little extra board bolted onto the corner of the control board is for the powerjack power meter and has a red lead and black lead, with red hooked to maint L and black to maint N. If those connections were reversed, your meter might read backwards. Just a thought...
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Hi Doc! :) Great observation on the wiring of small board, i will check, actually, its not.
Running backward i just thought it was because it displays a million kwh and i know i didnt use it that much. Anyway on to the diagrams. I did this rather quickly with limited function software so here goes.
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The previous picture shows original connections on pj toroid b4 change.
Power up and measure AC voltage on maintxN to MaintxL Then power off.
The next (2nd ) pic shows connections for step 1 ... After connecting new xfmr. Notice
original PJ connections are still unchanged the newxfmr is just added.
in this way (leaving) 4th terminal of new xfmr disconnected, power up PJ.
and measure AC voltage between "MaintxL" and the yet unconnected 4th wire of new xfmr.
If you measure small voltage, 5-10v, then good, you are phased properly, if high voltage then its.
phased backwar, power off and switch two wires of either winding of new xfmr.
Now once you have measured a small voltage, proceed to measure the voltage.
of the new xfmr (unconnected lead to the one on maintxN) is this voltage 5-10 v less than you measured on maintxN to maintxL? if so great move on to step 2.
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Step 2
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Thanks so much lighthunter.
I always feel more comfortable when I have a schematic to look at. You have it drawn just the way I figured it to be. The L1 and L2 designation is what confused me and probably led to my frying my first transformer.
I see that you have it reversed too.
L1 should be the lower (in your drawing) connection because that's the one that is in line with Maint L and is also the leg that becomes connection P3 and is fused or breakered by the powerjack for output.
In 110v control board models Maint N is the Neutral lead connected thru P4, and output L2 (if split phase) comes direct from the toroids. If not split phase and just a 110v output then there is no L2. In split phase with 230v control boards, the Maint N is also P4 output but now becomes output L2 (230v leg) with neutral coming from the center tap of the toroids directly with no connection to the control board.
So, in my mind I had it "drawn" correctly but reversed the L1 and L2, thinking Maint N was L1 so my connections were wrong for the 115-230v transformer, and POOF! I should have just drawn it out myself instead of assuming I had it straight "because its so simple". Those "simple" and obvious ones are the very ones that get you, along with poor eyesight and old age. It did me.
So thanks, thanks, thanks. Seeing it in front of me cleared it up completely for me. Can't thank you enough. I'm very reassured now and just have to be patient until Tuesday when my new transformer is supposed to arrive.
Btw, I'm definitely not an expert in transformers, but doesn't that connection of primary to secondary make it an autotranformer?
Btw number 2; Since I don't (and never will) use the battery charge "feature" of the powerjack, and since the pj people seem to have no problem putting out an unfused 230v leg (I do!), I have re-purposed the second breaker into an output breaker for L2. I removed the extra wiring and now have no connections to the input terminals of the control board. I used the wire that originally went from the second breaker to the input terminal and connected it to P4 instead, then removed the original connection from P4 and cut it short and connected it to the other side of the second breaker, so its P4 to breaker, then breaker to L2 output connector.
You would have to do it differently with a 110v control board, with P4 being neutral instead of L2. Also completely disconnected that 110v input plug under the breakers. I wonder how many powerjacks have fried from people plugging 110v into the battery charging inputs? (Probably trips a house breaker somewhere rather than frying the pj, luckily for them)
While I'm on my soapbox about poor powerjack connecting policies, every powerjack I have looked at (4 so far) have the 110v output receptacle reversed polarity. That is the hot lead (L1) and neutral are reversed. This would be for the US - I have no idea what other countries use for standard. Yes, most things plugged in would not care and you would never know the difference, but some things would, and you could get a tingle or short to ground. Changing/correcting those connections showed me how chincy(cheap) that universal receptacle is so would never connect anything but a small load to it. Push-in connections are poor at best and these are low quality compared to most push-ins. Ok, I'm done bitching (for today ;D)
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" L1 should be the lower (in your drawing)"
Thank You Doc, I will correct this as soon as i get a chance, To be honest.
I just guessed regarding L1 L2 not thinking it would matter but it does, thanks!
A buddy of mine always says if theres a 50% chance of right/wrong, he gets it
wrong 100% of the time :) I see what he means:).
I havent read your post through yet, will reply more when i do. Thks!
LH
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if there's a 50% chance of right/wrong, he gets it
wrong 100% of the time
That's me!
Despite previous bitching, still love my powerjacks
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Hi Doc! I take it your PJ is still working fine then.
" doesn't that connection of primary to secondary make it an autotranformer?"
I defenitely see the connection :) "no pun intended" i suppose the answer is yes and no.
technically, an autotransformer has only one winding. We have two here with both wdgs sharing a common conductor.
I did edit pics but seems like this forum has a time limit for modifying a post. Kinda goes against most of our nature as modifying is always more fun:) Maybe i am missing something?? I could post pics again further down. Let me kgnow if ideas.
LH
I really hope this works out for you! I know you will like it when done, voltage is very stable and has just as much torque as the grid until a fuse or breaker clears .
Question, i just got 4 new solar panels. The shipper poked a fork truck into one of em so theyr gonna replace it. I was thinking about ordering a few more with the deal but before i do i wanted to verify performance. So its very cloudy and rainy. I thought.......i know how i can verify performance, i will look at power output on my existing 10panel setup (it read 300w) and i would unplug and add one of these new ones, the power increase will indicate performance. After I added panel, power actually went down to 200w!!! How can this be???? The voltage went from 254 to 286 to reflect the new voltage. Very wierd, might mean my inverter couldnt do well at that low output poiint??? Or panels are junk and if im gonna use em at all then they hav to be their own string.?
The original panel string was made up of (5)imp 8.8A 22v and (5) 8.4A 29v panels while these new ones are (8.9A ) 37v. As long as imp ratings are close i should b able to series connect. Any ideas would b appreciated.
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Hi lighthunter,
As far as your schematics, reposting is fine with me, if you don't mind. Possibly one of the moderators could allow a post "repair", but probably not worth their time and trouble. I wondered about that time limit to modify a post. Seems a little odd. There's doubtless a reason for it, even if not apparent to me.
On your solar string, I wish I could give you an answer that makes sense, but I can't. My experience is that different voltage and different wattage panels strung together can sometimes fight each other, but not consistently. Sometimes they play nice and seem to put out what you would expect, and then the next day with possibly different sun levels they put out significantly less than the expected total output. Probably why almost all the solar installers I've heard from strongly suggest buying your string all at the same time and with the same ratings. Even identical panels added to an existing string that's a few years old can give the result you experienced, but not always. Sometimes you can add a few panels and they work great; no issues at all.
It seems to be a crapshoot.
Separate strings will probably work better for you, but nothing is definite with mismatched strings. You might have to experiment some to get it producing proper output. A diode in each string might help.
Wish I had better info for you.
Almost everybody on this forum is smarter than me, so hopefully someone here can give you a better answer.
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Hi! just wanted to communicate what I found out with new panels.
Even though my 10 old panel array is same IMP rating :o.
The problem was the two diff panels did have same imp rating but.
the power curve was quite different. The new panels work fine above 3 amps.
But the old panels do better by comparison under 3. Amps ...solution,run 2 separate
strings.
LH.
(Right on Doc!) ;D
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Hi Doc! I made some changes to the 6000 pj this morning and seems like it was a winner.
Because of the info Oztules gave us about power control being done on the small metal current transformer (on board). I connected*edited* "maintx-L" and "P3" back up the way pj originally wired it. Then I connected the corrected feedback voltage to the maintx-N terminal. A pic from book for reference.
It doesnt seem to matter (it does matter see next post) to pj control card if you use red or black lead for N so i guess my concern for (proper) phasing was overkill. All in all, this makes the complete mod very easy and should maintain original power control functionality. My array size has just doubled now at 4400w and we may finally get sun today so i will try to confirm later today if original fans work again! Come to think of it im pretty sure the rest of my inverter can do 4k continuous but that little on board ct may be weak spot now. Oh well, i can always bypass some to allow more. The only cooling i need is for fets as the toroids are both out of the box. Generally my grid tie does all the work anyway. Now i need an electric car to use the peak power for charging :)
LH
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The phasing is only an issue if using the onboard charger, otherwise it is as you say... inconsequential.
The onboard charger needs to match the mains freq to the inverter output, and connect them together to charge.... you can imagine what happens when it syncs them at the computer end, only to find out they are opposing sign when they meet at the transformer.
Running as inverter only makes no difference to the phasing arrangement.
..............oztules
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Hi lighthunter and Oztules,
I did wonder why phasing seemed important, as I didn't think it should make any difference which way the new transformer's secondary was hooked up, especially since the battery charging 'feature' is a non-issue for me. Nice to know something I thought might be right! (Still, I was not about to question while still able to smell my first attempt - I left that transformer sitting next to the pj to remind me to be careful my connections are correct next time)
The current transformer CT1, as I understand it, just compares the output leg L1 at connection P3 to a fed back L1 potential from the toroids at Maintx L connection point P5, so the control board can adjust output as needed. That it also allows monitoring of current/wattage is logical but how it uses that info is beyond me. Just happy it works. (I'm assuming you meant L1 when you said P1)
I don't know why CT1 should be a weak point as it is just comparing voltage differences. Seems unlikely it handles any significant load itself to become a weak link under heavy powerjack load conditions, or maybe my ignorance is showing again
Got my new transformer Saturday and hoping to have time to start unwinding secondary turns tomorrow and testing for proper secondary voltage reduction.
Lighthunter, glad you got your panels working with proper output. 2 strings?
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"(I'm assuming you meant ]L1 when you said P1)"
Your right Doc, I meant terminal marked "maintx-L and P3" I put connections back to original.
From looking at board it appears that the pj output load current flows from maintx-L terminal through the yellow metal ct to P3 then fuse and outlets. Similar on your split phase i should think.
This flow path allows the ct primary to see all the load current in this version at least while the secondary converts the current to a meaningful voltage proportional to the current so main control IC can throttle the duty cycle of fets to limit current.
Mine worked too well today, when it hit 2900 watts it started beeping and well shut off after a time limit. so i had to adjust that. The "weak spot" i meant was ct primary as it now has to run 30 amps through it. I just didnt know how heavy the wire is but i guess it doesnt matter since i bypassed half of it.
Thaanks for catching the error, i just saw the P3 next to the terminal in book but they were just marking the length of wire.
Thanks also oztules for the phasing info. I may try to use that to tie two of em together one day.
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So does that mean that the transformer we are adding is carrying full load current? I sure hope not as that changes everything. The transformer now needs to be rated at least as high as the powerjack's toroids or its not going to last too long, if at all. First time a significant load is put on the pj, there's gonna be smoke...
I remember you saying your first 10w transformer smoked after a short time. What is the power rating on the one you are using now?
It must not be full load current or that little CT1 current transformer wouldn't last long either. The transformer I just got is a 50w, which I thought would be big enough, without getting too physically large, but maybe not?
Maybe Oztules can clarify current to and through CT1 (which would include the added transformer)?
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I have not followed this thread very closely, so I don't know exactly what your up to.
I think your trying to use a second transformer to tell the AC input a new voltage that is not the same as the voltage from the main transformer... in order to trick into thinking it is doing something it is not actually doing.
If so,
1. Your little 50watt or whatever transformer.... it would be nice to be in phase with the main transformer. It is not strictly necessary as it should be floating above the main transformers N output.... so..
2. The little transformer goes to N and L on the control card. This provides control voltage to control card
3. The main transformer line ....goes to the L input, and then through the CT and out to the load. So the controller can see the current through CT.
4. The neutral lead from the main transformer does not go anywhere near the control card. It floats... or actually goes directly to load point on your power receptical. This way your little transformer is only used for control voltage, and can be as small as you like. It will see no load, even though it is connected to the CT, the N rail is going nowhere other than the N terminal on the board.
5. That leaves the shaping capacitor. It needs to stay where it is to shape the voltage transformer wave, but a new one needs to go across the main transformer output... or go across the output receptical, so it can shape the power coming from the main transformer...
This means the little transformer is only connected to the main one at the L terminal only.... so it sees no load, the CT and the main will, as the CT is in series with the main L output.
So the new tranny is basically isolated from the load because the N rails are not connected to each other or the load N. It provides the new voltage reference only. It is connected to the CT L terminal, and the N terminal, but only to get access to the voltage dividers that control the output voltage.. it has no other interaction.
I expect the new tranny is connected primary to the main output, and secondary to the control card... ie a 220:240 or whatever transformer. This way, your load can drop the output voltage, and the new tranny will give a lower voltage to the controller to do the compensation.
Seems like a hard way to control the output, but it is your choice. I expect messing with the divider will achieve the same results..... but your show.
The CT has only 2 turns of pretty heavy wire, have not seen it suffer in all my usage so far..... but a current bypass wire will help too if you are going for high power continuous.
Is that how you want to do it, or did I get it wrong.
..............oztules
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Thanks Oztules,
And yes, the new transformer is to trick the control board into bumping up the normal 230v output to about 240v.
Relieved to hear it won't see full load current. Thanks. Lighthunter's first attempt was a 10 watt transformer which burned out in a short time (not sure how long it lasted, and not sure what wattage he's got working now - large I think) His works now and with good steady regulation, which is why I'm about to try it. He and I both previously tried adding resistance to the voltage divider network with almost identical same results. It boosted voltage up where we wanted it but for some reason, made voltage regulation sloppy. My output randomly drifted from 232v to 241v under steady (light) load, which never happened before the mod.
Is the shaping capacitor you referred to the large brown one at C20 across the maintxL and maintxN connections? If so, another of same specs across output makes sense since we have now isolated C20 from output with our new transformer.
Thanks again
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Actually, the 4u7 cap can be removed from the control card, and placed at the main transformer outputs on the receptical, as the small one is seeing this filtered output as it's input, so it's wave will be fine anyway.... forgot about that ....
...........oztules
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Thanks again!
Saves me waiting for a new one to get here.
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Nice explanation oztules! :) Thanks! the 10w transformer i used didnt actally die it just smelled hot and since it ran for a month that way i'm pretty sure it was because i was using it in a buck fashion and the little 6v winding it had wasnt up to the task. The transformer i now use is larger yes 100w but there is very little current going through it. As oztules pointed out the load current will pass through the ct but not the add on transformer.
I just got some new panels and didnt want to write about them yet because i wasnt sure they would be good. I paid $135 each and they are rated at 305w 37v 45voc. I couldnt be happier, I measured output current close to 10A. They ran steady at 358w Thats 17% over rated pwr. I would not trust measurement but i happen to know inverter pwr reads on the low side and the current clamp x volt gave same pwr reading. Frameless panel some company i never heard of before. Was an ebay seller, i got the mono panels, he had poly even cheaper.
LH
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Lighthunter, that's a great price on those panels. Panels seem to be getting cheaper all the time (or you're a heck of a wheeler-dealer!).
I love getting that higher than rated output with new panels for the first couple of months until they settle down to rated range.
Transformer;
Primary is wound on top of secondary in my new transformer, so considering using it backwards; primary as secondary and secondary as primary. Since its 1:1 anyway and current flow will be small, shouldn't matter, I hope. That way I can still unwind some of the 'secondary' (now accessable on top) to get my reduced output.
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"I love getting that higher than rated output with new panels for the first couple of months until they settle down to rated range."
No kidding, i didnt know they changed that fast! i learn something every day :) Now if i cud just remember the things i learn ;D.
I think pri vs secondary is defined by user anyway.
LH
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Hi Lighthunter,
Honestly, I can't remember how long it takes for output to drop back to rated, and I think it depends on the panel brand as well. Maybe as long as 6 months.
Its been many years since I studied transformer theory, but think I remember that there's no reason I can't redefine primary and secondary, especially since we're talking minimal loading. Glad you agree.
Btw, did you add or move the capacitor (C20 on control board) on your setup as Oztules suggested? Just wondering.
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"Btw, did you add or move the capacitor (C20 "
No i didnt. I remember thinkin about it. Oztules is right, it should stay with the toroid secondary.
Yeah transformers dont care what you do with them so long as you dont exceed current or voltage ratings.
LH
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My first PJ casualty.Fets blown. Replaced with irf4110s some new resistors and swapped control board. All working again! Looked deeper into reason failure happend. Sump pump switching between inverter and grid power. It was a cheap dpdt relay with very narrow gap between contacts. You get the picture. Two power sources had a fight, pj lost. Anyway. The spare control card i had still has a quirk, it powers on cold really hard with noise and high current. In 30 sec or so it warms up and is fine. This control card manages output at 230 instead of 240. The grid tie doesnt like it. It is back to shutting off frequently. I had to order totem pole drivers. Mouser had one but not both. Amazon of all places had both and 20 irfb4110 for $15.
LH
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Maybe it's time to build the 002 or 8010 card and replace the pj control... that way you have easy control over the voltage... simple trim pot.
I will hopefully get clockmans cards soon, and can test them... the 8010 will fit into the pj carcass, but the 002 won't... just too high.
If the cards test out ok, you may be able to badger him for some too :)
..............oztules
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On there way to you oztules, 2 of each. Post Office tell me that it will take another 5 days.
Power board okay, but now revised a couple of things and I await your feedback before proceeding with a larger batch manufacturing.
OzControl board, ... I missed a Via on a jumper.... track is there so drilled and removed lacquer. Also removed copper around the 4 mounting positions. Now amended. I have also got this board as a double sided now. But the single side will stay for the DIY mask and etch folk.
The New PowerBoard and the OzControl board will/can be a direct replacement for the PJ boards. SSHHH .....opening Pandora's box?...... They are all through hole components, and readily obtainable, with only the 8010 HT1356 chip being a SMD but that is on its own horizontal/flat mounted sub board.
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"Maybe it's time to build the 002 or 8010"
Thats a good idea!. I already have 3 of the 002 boards on hand too! Couldnt I use a 90 degree header connector to keep height down? Agree 8010 alone might even be better.
I am was planning on a 48v inverter soon anyway. A friend insisted on me using his 510AH fork lift battery. (48v) thats over 24kw of energy storage :o
I assume the 002 2110 driver has charge pump for high side fet float?
If I connect 002 board to (4) 600v igbts will it be able to down convert 150-300vdc thru 10kva transformer to 48v?
I do struggle to understand requirements of high side fet drive.
Thanks so much for supportive ideas!
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"I assume the 002 2110 driver has charge pump for high side fet float? " yes
If I connect 002 board to (4) 600v igbts will it be able to down convert 150-300vdc thru 10kva transformer to 48v?... yes, it is actually what they are designed for originally from what I can understand.
"I do struggle to understand requirements of high side fet drive."... high current to pull the gate up and down very fast against the capacitive insulated gate... ie the gate is insulated from the drain source channel... the thickness of the insulation and the area of the insulated interface will dictate the capacitance of the junction we need to charge and discharge very fast.
So even though the input impedance is extremely high, it takes a decent current to pull it up past 10v or so and back to zero very fast.... any time spent in the linear part of the curve will mean heat... we want it on or off ........ideally nothing in between.
In essence, exactly the same requirements as the low side driver.. no difference. The charge pump is a simple way to achieve a higher voltage than the B+ of the drain...and stored in a capacitor for fast discharge into the gate. ie when the fet is turned on, the drain is at the same potential as the source...both at B+.... but the insulated gate needs to be at least 10v or so more than the source ( now B+), or it won't turn/stay on... so a problem for the high side fet that is solved in one of several ways.
An isolated gate driver voltage from a floating supply grounded at the source and driving the gate, a transformer coupled system... achieves the same thing, or the charge pump..... and the diode and cap and the 2110 works way better than I expected.
............oztules
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I guess I missed the explanation of Clockman's control board(s), but if they have adjustable output control, I want one! Sounds like he plans on selling them?
Besides, I'm not having any luck unwinding this new transformer. Being small physically, it has tiny wire. Having to work thru the core makes it nearly impossible. Now I get why the bigger transformer is a better plan....
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Not really selling them, that's not my game. I just wanted a decent Inverter that, 'did what it said on the Tin'.......
When I say manufacture them I mean about 20 or so boards, just gets silly money tied up if I make too many at one time....
However, I will probably give an option with the "Making a 6-15kW OzInverter" 76 page Book I have printed, 150 copies, that as well as the supplement with all the DIY PCB making masks, I could offer another option and include the ready made PCB's with the book.
Postage, colour printing, small batch PCB's does mean that the book will not be cheap cheap.
For instance the first small order for Power Board and the OzControl Board cost me about $43 each pair. There is no money in it as most 'DIY ers' wont spend much.
But on the other hand.... Buy the book and the PCB's.... follow the construction of everything, toroid, circuits, electrics etc, using readily obtained parts... and boy oh boy !! you have an Inverter that is in my opinion better than the commercial Guys,....... but Robust, simple, easily repairable, and best of all real cheap!!!!!!
I await 'oztules' testing on them preliminary boards before I go anywhere.
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Hi Clockman, and thanks for the reply.
When you are ready, I'm in for the book and the PCB. Put my name on your list! This whole topic of making our own power has had me hooked for years now, and what you, Oztules and some others have accomplished with the powerjack as a base is outstanding. Some of the details and some of the electronics are beyond my range of knowledge, but I get most of it and can build a kit and follow a schematic, Especially since you guys are always willing to help with advice and direction. Thanks for some excellent work!
Does your control board allow for output voltage adjustment up to 240vac? That has been my 'quest' on this thread and while lighthunter's innovative extra transformer fix will likely do the job for me (if I can ever get the transformer correctly unwound without destroying it), a new control board replacement with output voltage adjustment built right in would be wonderful. Also an adjustable setpoint for high battery voltage alarm/shutdown (My other main issue with powerjack controls) If it does those 2 things, you are my hero!
Anyway, I for one, appreciate what you and Oztules are doing and eagerly await the finished product
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The 220vac 240vac or whatever output can be adjusted with the 10k trimmer pot.
The 2k trimmer pot is to shut down level for the AC current, using a sense coil on the AC cable coming from the secondary.
The Inverter will back charge to the battery if you are not using that GTI PV power. So the batteries will get raw charging. What I find is as the batteries fill up the 230vac rises, and at about 244vac my GTI switches it self off, I have set to switch off at that voltage. I also have 8kW of dump controllers for my wind turbines, some times they manage the excess GTI back charging voltage.
I think oztules does the same, but with his GTI it reaches the permissible overvoltage Grid pre-set level and shuts down his GTI.
Its a simple, robust Inverter so you will need to configure it for your system.
The trick is at present not to have to much GTI input for your batteries, hence me having a fail safe relay working from the Midnite Classic Controller when it goes to float with my 63kW of batteries.
Here's the latest double sided OzControl5 Board screen print.
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That looks like a very clean design! Nice!
It appears you are intending this board as a direct swap into a 15kw powerjack? (I hope). Will the same board be used for 48, 24, and 12vdc models or will each version have to be different? I'm assuming no fan controls either (a good thing I think - independent fan control is better anyway)
Assuming (again) that your J3 and J4 connections correspond to the P3 and P4 output connections on the pj board, I don't see what corresponds to the MaintxL and MaintxN feedback connections from the toroids, or maybe you don't need that?
Sorry for so many questions, you've got me exited to try this out! No doubt everything is explained in your book
Can't wait to get one
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Thanks.
Yes we have independent cooling control with the OzCooling circuit, (breadboard as its a simple PCB) its in the book, It ramps up and down gently following the temp rises and falls and just ticks over if required.
The J3 & J4 are just a feed 230vAC from the Secondary cables connection at the Separate EMC filter input, so the cables are not big on the board. I use 10mm/2, straining our control card is a no no. I hate mixing AC stuff with DC stuff. These details are in the Supplement.
These New boards were not actually designed for the PJ, but it would fit, infact after purchasing a 10000w PJ, it was cheap, and looking inside, I stripped it for spares as it was not worth the hassel getting the PJ to really work.
For running a domestic home 48v to 230vac is the norm as it saves on huge cable connections etc, plus most commercial DC controllers have 48vdc. So sorry this baby is strictly for my 48vdc system, but I feel sure it could be adapted.
TBH once I looked at the PJ toroids and the space/clearance inside the case, the PJ toroids are woefully inadequate at handling continuous Power as they state. But the PJ 15kW 48vdc Power Board was/is pretty good, sadly PJ stocking and selling these good Boards seems to be very ad hock. So hence us making our own boards as well. We are no longer dependant on anyone..........
I ordered 2 silicone Iron wound cores from the UK core winders. 'Frackers' my hero, wound his own cores, so that's possible also. Stuck them together to give me 190mm OD x 120mm high with a 90mm centre hole. Wound them with 118 turns 4off/in hand 1.8mm diameter copper wire and 50mm/2 14 turns for the primary. Total finished weight about 28kgs . All in the book including the tech stuff.
This will run 6kW loads no issues and this OzInverter replaced a SMA 6 Sunny Island that would not do the work. Been running beautifully Now for over 5 months.
My place here, Normandy, rural rolling countryside, will be shortly a Community project with Holiday accommodation 3 Gites, (self sufficient Passive House standard cottages), Lecture Theatre, workshops, swimming pool etc. There is just me doing the works, so the last 10 years has been very busy. All this means I need a real 15kW Inverter, so hence me building the BigOzInverter, its toroid core is 230mm OD x 140mm high with a 100mm centre hole. The core on its own weighs about 39kgs.
As these Inverters are working I also like to have replacement parts ready for direct swapping, that's why I want spare boards.
The project turned into a book, as my 3 young boys always want to know how stuff works, at least when I am gone they get a manual. And the book is also part of our philosophy of self empowerment, assisting and passing knowledge to others.
However..... Its all Oztules work really, he helped me when the commercial machines just could not do it..... In my book he's the kind of guy that deserves a Medal, as he just continues to push that boat. And boy! this Planet needs more folk like him!
Whoops,! sorry got the incorrect OD....... my New BigOzInverter toroid core is amended, it is actually 230mm diameter x 140mm high with a 100 mm diameter centre hole.
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dochubert,
The board has two tip35c transistors.... with these it will take any voltage up to 96v or so... so it is voltage independent.... they provide the voltage to the chip and drivers... that why designed it with them, rather than voltage regulators, or buck converters.... not sexy, and not terribly efficient either, but were talking milliamps not amps too. They are universal, and they work fine.
The output is pure switching to the fet gates, so, providing you choose the fets for your current and voltage, and the transformer to suite.... it will run.
It has no high or low cut outs, and thats why it will suite any voltage device you stick it into, 12, 24,36,48,60,54 whatever, it is only the output transformer and the output transistors that care about the voltage....so once you choose them, just add board.
...........oztules
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Oztules,
If you had a magic wand, what would be your perfect size dimensions for the torroid? Hole diameter, outside diameter, and thickness.
Something for everything, sort of thing.
Just curious.
Dave
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gee David, thats easy......big.
I like a decent sized hole... say 100mm across, and I don't like the primary... so I want few turns as possible....
So something outlandish like 100mm hole, 100mm height, and 100mm depth... so it would be 300mm accross with a 100mm hole by 100mmm deep
Cross section would be 10000mmsq or around the 3.6v/turn.... so 66 turns for the secondary in a 4 " hole would be a doddle, and about 7-8 turns for the primary..
Problem is would weigh a ton, and cost a fortune..... but easy to wind and very high power.
So I don't really know what size, as it really depends on your projected power requirements, and duty cycle.
It is pointless winding the above unit, if you run 500 watts most of the time, and only use 10kw for a very limited time....
So providing you have plenty of hole to work with, it is all good.....
The last one I did I pulled a bit out of the middle out to get it up to 100mm, and suffered the voltage loss and added the extra turns, as it was do-able because of the hole size,..... but it was unusable with the original size without a proper winder...
Horses for courses.
.........oztules
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Oztules and ClockmanFrance,
You guys continue to amaze and impress me.
A little more than 2 years ago I bought my first powerjack (24v 8kw) and after using and being greatly disappointed in 2 or 3 other inverters I had tried, loved it. I loved that powerjack because it would run my fridge and my freezer and all the lights and gadgets in the house all day long (on a sunny day - 22 solar amps charging 4 180ah telecom agm batts). It didn't cough when the fridge was running and the freezer kicked on. Even the hi voltage shutdowns and the low ac output voltage level didn't dampen my love for making my own power. I just decided to try to improve on it. Not being smart enough to redesign the circuit myself didn't mean somebody out there wasn't smart enough and practical minded enough to be working on it. So I started looking, and a few weeks later I stumbled onto you guys. One of the luckiest things that's happened to me in awhile. Not only have you solved the problems, you've improved on them. And just when I was thinking progress with the powerjacks was peaking, you've designed and soon to publish a build it yourself "powerjack" minus the problems and with the improvements including output voltage adjustment to bring it up to the 240v I want.
I appreciate all I've learned in several months here. I've tried to absorb everything I could, and surprising to me, things that I didn't have a clue about a year ago, now make sense and even things I wouldn't expect I would ever try I've done more than once and even understood what I was doing (mostly). I have little doubt that I can completely power my future 'house on acreage' with what I've learned in the last year or so, and its because of you and this great forum. Thanks and please don't stop
this Planet needs more folk like him! (referring to Oztules)"
True enough, and more like ClockmanFrance, and several others, too.
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>dochubert: If you still want to experiment with lighthunter's transformer voltage adjust concept, you could consider sourcing a pair of small 230/240 toroids with low voltage secondaries wound over the primary. Connect them back to back, secondary to secondary. I found some on ebay, but the cores were potted, not open (damn).
Put 240 on one of the primary windings, measure the output on the other toroid primary. Should be close to 240, also. Essentially, it's a one to one ratio using two toroids. Now, just add or subtract turns on one the secondary windings and re-measure the primary output. Depending on the secondary voltage, a turn or two should have a large effect. You might even get lucky and find the toroids are slightly mismatched and give you what you want without any turns modification.
I was thinking these would be easier to modify, if necessary.
This takes me back a few years since I last tried this. I hope Oz doesn't catch me speeding.
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Sunnypower, thanks for the great toroid idea. I definitely need 'easier to modify'
I just looked on ebay and found most of the inexpensive ones are all potted centers. One from Netherlands (naturally!) seems to be open but doesn't specify, so sent the question and hope they speak english.
How hard would it be to remove the potting without damage? Impossible right?
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"How hard would it be to remove the potting without damage? Impossible right?"
Someone on here did this, he did an awesome job of removing potting without even damaging the plastic wrap. Might have been frackers or clockman, just cant remember. It was a 3+kw toroid too. I have a potted 3kw and started with a hole saw and got half way through and quit. I then modified the rest of the circuit to fit the transformer because i was worried about damaging the winding. I know its possible but guessing very tedious and may require beer. ;D.
LH
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Thanks Lighthunter,
Didn't figure it was worth the effort, but was hoping someone would say, "Just spray it with this handy dandy potting remover and it will fall right out!" ;)
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;D. You are so funny!
I dont mind when a project takes a lot of effort but I sure hate to go backwards. By the way, my spare pj board has been running very well with very few gti stops. As you probably knew like sunny, my voltage changed just by changing control board. It is around 230 instead of the 239 i did have. The new totem (darlington) transistors are ordered and will return to original board when i get parts or put together a 48v unit from Oztules' 002 circuit, whichever happens first.
LH
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http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1044.msg10165.html#msg10165 gets the potting center out.
The totems...... never know what else went wrong in there, may be just as simple to do the 002 or 8010.
..............oztules
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never know what else went wrong in there.
Yep! i agree. You know how it is though :) one has to either repair it or burn it up good just to set it on the shelf. Im hoping the transistors and optos should fix it. The Fet board is already repaired and in use.
I am taking your advice and moving on to 48v 002 setup. Rather than tackle the toroid rewind, I think I will try the monster 200lb EI as it has many high current windings, was taken from a multi kw computer UPS 48 to 480/240/120. It has extremely low idle current less than 50w I dont know how but could it be that an EI can be built for higher efficiency? I know the donut shape is magnetically superior but this one is surprising and too good to pass up.
"gets the potting center out. "
Thanks for the link! I like the idea of punching it through.
LH
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Thanks Oztules,
Should have known you would have a simple solution to removing potting from toroid coils. Luckily, the two small ones I ordered to try the voltage adjust aren't potted.
I have just (finally) read thru your thread on the new control boards. Now I'm no longer puzzled over comments about "002" and "8010". Amazing job! Simple, clean and robust. Clockman has the pcb down and if I had his book and pcb now I'd be building it instead of writing here. I want an 8010 control for my 15kw/48v powerjack as soon as I can get one built. Will have a hard time waiting patiently. I never delved into pc board making so stuck until I can get one from someone else.
Eventually will build a complete unit from scratch, probably after I get moved in a few months.
Would never have even considered doing that before finding you guys.
Thanks again
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Finally got my two small toroid transformers. They are 230v primary, 12v secondary. Salvaged a short piece of wire left over from the first transformer that fried and wound 6 turns on one toroid, connected in series with the secondary, and hooked to the pj output connector for a test.
[attachimg=1]
Turned pj on and with 232v in, read 250v out, so swapped the input and output and tried again. 217v out this time so took 2 turns back off and getting 221v or so. About right.
Next will be the operational test, probably tomorrow
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Had some time so went ahead and hooked up for the test.
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
Triple checked connections and turned on pj. Mod worked a bit too well. Lcd meter read 293v output. Shut it down after about ten seconds. No smoke or odd noises, just way high output.
I suspect the small toroids are too close to the big transformers and getting induced a little too much?
Tomorrow I'll add leads and move them away and try again.
At least nothing fried this time....
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Moved the small toroids back to the end of the unit, added leads and reconnected. Still 292v. Put the two turns back on that I had removed previously and now 295v. Put voltmeter to output terminals and tried again in case the lcd meter was screwed up, and read 229v while the lcd said 295v. All these tries just had unit on for a few seconds, but this last time while reading that 229v, got sudden loud hum so immediately turned it off. Slight burn smell so probably fried something but can't pinpoint. Hope its in the control board as its to be replaced soon anyway
So done with this experiment. Its an 8010 board for me as soon as I can get one. Now have to figure out if unit still works or if really damaged. Later, after irritation factor goes down some...
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Guessing shorted driver transistor.........
............oztules
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The Leds are no longer lit on the output side of the mainboard so probably fried a fet or 2? As soon as I'm done being pissed I'll get the boards out for a closer look, hopefully tomorrow.
Don't really understand how a transformer feeding back at about ten volts lower than nominal boosted output 60 volts. Or did it?
Guess I'm not going to find out 'cause won't be trying that one again.
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295v? :-\ Sounds like no feedback. Make the repair painless as possible and just replace em all. Optos, drivers and fets. Unless you verify each is a good component. One damaged one can ruin everything you just repaired.
Mouser Has optos and the 2SA1213 NY PNP drivers. The fets and the NPN 2SC2873 MY drivers I ordered from china thru amazon. Pretty cheap repair, I think $20 for the 24 irfb4110s and maybe $10 all up for the rest. If you have not the equipment for surface mount soldering get a few rolls of solder wick.
Mine failed due to a fight with mains due to a transfer relay failure and half of the Fets got blown along with one of the drivers. Maybe a driver is all that is wrong with yours as oztules suggested.
There might be a way to verify each bank of 6 fets by simply connecting a 12v source to fets then to halogen 12v bulb and back to ground. A 9v bat supply to gate resistor should make it light then off, no light. As i mentioned, it probably safer just to replace em but it does take a bit of time. Testing/verifying 4 banks would b a good second.
Best wishes,
LH
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>dochubert: Sorry to hear you damaged your unit. I had a chance to look closely at your pictures and wanted to note what might have been an error in your hookup.
In my earlier post, I indicated you connect the secondary windings together (adding/subtracting turns, as you did). The primary connection wires appear to be white in color in your picture. You appear to have connected a leg of each toroid's primary to terminal P6. This looks a lot like an autotransformer hookup. As such, it doesn't preserve the standard isolation of a typical primary/secondary arrangement. I thought you wanted a 230 to 226/234 volt fully isolated transformer. It doesn't appear that you used this combo setup in this manner. I can't say that it was the fatal error, though.
I observed that same loud buzzing with my original control board, though it was related to pressing on the control board. Never lost my FETs, though. No problem with new board. Hope the 8010 board makes things easier re voltage adjustments.
Anyway, I think your toroids look nice. Do you have an online link to them? I might want them for a future project.
Also, does anyone have a picture showing the circuit board location of the 2SA1213 and 2SC2873 drivers mentioned by lighthunter? I don't see them on the control board, or are they down on the power board?
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I believe the 2SA1213 and 2SC2873 are right by the optos TLP350 on the daughter board of the control board. What I'm not sure of is which is which, as mine are not marked and same case type.
I was also concerned by the 'autotransformer' connection of transformer primary to secondary for this mod, but lighthunter posted a schematic of his mod a few posts back, and it is how I connected it. The difference being this time my transformer is made up of 2 transformers coupled. Should it matter? I wouldn't think so, but maybe it did. I still haven't taken the boards out of the pj yet. Maybe there will be time tomorrow
At any rate, with easy voltage control built into the Ozcontrol 8010 control board, I won't risk anymore smoking components on this mod. I just have to be patient until someone makes some pc boards for the 8010 available for those of us who don't make our own pcbs. Meanwhile, I'm acquiring some of the parts so I'm ready.
Here's the link for the toroids;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/230V-12V-40VA-TOROIDAL-TRANSFORMER-/191796609739?hash=item2ca7f802cb:g:8GMAAOSwFMZWr42h (http://www.ebay.com/itm/230V-12V-40VA-TOROIDAL-TRANSFORMER-/191796609739?hash=item2ca7f802cb:g:8GMAAOSwFMZWr42h)
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Hi guys, i'm wondering if the 120/240v split phase version of the pj board is different from the single phase version in some way causing your problem. Seems like you mentioned a loud hum when you tried it the first time too. Basically all you are doing is moving the the maintx-n to p4 connection off the board and replacing the maintx-n terminal voltage with a slightly adjusted one.
Your driver transistors should have a code on them like MY and NY which corresponds to NPN and PNP.
LH
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Hi lighthunter,
I don't understand it either, since it worked for you. Was very very careful with hookup this time around, and first test had the toroid transformer output just where I wanted; 9-10 volts low. Should have worked....
Well, guess I get to change my first set of mosfets
My spare control board's drivers didn't seem to have any markings, but scraping with thumbnail found very faint MY on the 2 nearest the control board edge. Q08 and Q03 for the MY. The other 2 don't seem to have any markings at all. Duh, guess they're the NY
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Hi Guys! yeah, i agree, MY is Q3,Q8 and NY is Q5,Q9 next to U1. I feel bad about your misfortune DocHubert. Pm me if there is any way i can help. If u send boards i will fix em for you. The worst part about a board failure is the downtime. If they can b fixed quick then one forgets about the bad experience quickly :) Yeah it should have worked. By info it seems like it was running without feedback. One thing i liked to do was measure voltage between maintxn and maintxl before making change while the new feedback transformer is connected to the ac inverter output. This way the original and the (new) feedback voltage can be compared before change. I know you did this but somehow either an unexpected ground loop or something made the feedback voltage invisible to the control board.
Cheers,
LH
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Thanks lighthunter,
I appreciate the offer but will just suck it up and do the job myself when my mosfets and stuff arrive. I knew the risks when I decided to try it. Nobody to blame but me. Just a bad time (when is a good time?) as working on the house to list for sale in next couple of weeks.
If you decide to build an ozcontrol 8010 and have pc boards made, I would be grateful if you could make a couple extra for me as I have no experience with that. I wiil pay for them of course. I'm starting to gather parts for it in anticipation. (Ah, an output voltage trimpot!)
Downtime does suck. I keep wanting to go turn mine on and power the house on a nice sunny day like today and watch the power company meter spin madly backwards from 2000 watts of gridtie solar and no load. (Yes, I kept my analog meter and told sdg&e to find something intelligent to do with their 'smart' meter.)
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Hi Doc Hubert! Yes, I kept my analog meter and told sdg&e to find something intelligent to do with their 'smart' meter.)
You animal!!! good job! am proud of you! Mine was switched before i got the place :-\
In february of this year i was having an issue with my grid tie tripping off and i plugged it into the mains to test and seemed all good thinking the clothes dryer would eat up all the output. As luck would have it I smoked a belt on my snowblower and took a bit too long before checking on it. The dryer had finished the cycle and .... the smartmeter was reporting reverse power.. I never got a phon call but I'm pretty sure they knew it. I was worried cause a friend in texas had that experience as well and they came out to check things. Guess its not a big deal just another $400 that would take years to come back... They install another meter and all. Id just as soon keep em separate.
Back to your situation. Hopefully I will have a bare board done this week some time. Were you thinking you want a bare board or loaded and tested? I'm not a wizard with pc board making but its coming along ok. My those drill bits are tiny. I hope your repair is going well. Im still not sure where the lights were on your control board you spoke about but after measuring for shorted drivers with an ohmmeter i would remove any shorted ones and power it up without the ribbon cable plugged of course and see if your lights are back on. If not look for another fail part. Another way is to measure for the 5v on the 7805. Once you get power back you know replacing the drivers an optos an fets will restore normal use.
Cheers,
LH
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Hi lighthunter,
The lights I was talking about are the 4 leds on the main board. Each led indicates that section of fets is outputting properly. On my pj, one led is completely out and another is dim. They are the two sections that the big transformers connect to, the output half of the main power board. No lights on the control board
Sorry, guess I wasn't clear about that.
I plan to just change all 4 drivers and both optos on the control, and all the fets on the main (and anything else that looks stressed) Luckily, I do have a spare control board, so once the mainboard is repaired I can be back up and running. The spare board is the one that has the added 470k ohm resistor in the resistor chain, and puts out 240v (mostly) The 4110 fets haven't arrived yet. Heck, I haven't even taken the boards out of the case yet
About those 8010 boards. I will be happy and grateful to get a bare board and do the assembly. I already have some of the parts. I just read today that Oztules just made some changes; added a small transformer and changed some resistors. Maybe we shouldn't be too quick to build....
Also, he recommends changing gate resistor values and adding diodes on the main pj board if changing to the 8010 control. Don't know if you saw that one
That 'smart' meter thing was something. Luckily, I'm home most of the time and was able to intercept 3 separate tries at them sneaking in and changing my meter. I told each tech that I was refusing the changeover because the new meters were harmful to health and almost always resulted in higher electric bills. They all acted shocked at such an idea, but were polite and left. 3 attempts says that sdg&e really didn't care about customer concerns (how shocking!). Eventually, they decided to allow customers to keep their analog meters if they wished. Of course this was long after 99% of them were already changed. They would now agree to replace the 'smart' meter with what they were calling an analog meter, but which was actually a digital meter disguised as an analog meter. Of course the customer had to pay a service fee for changing it. I have no direct knowledge, but would bet the 'new' analog meters are just as hazardous to health and transmit your electric usage same as the 'smart' meters. Glad I was ornery and held onto my original. And because of the analog meter, I can bank some KWs early in the month running my powerjack as long as I make sure I owe for 20-30 kwh by meter reading day. I never let it be negative when read so nobody pays any further attention (hopefully). I pay a small bill each month to avoid notice. The price of renegade solar is constant vigilance! (and a few bucks) ;)
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Might just as well tag on here;
After recently frying my powerjack while experimenting, I am still not back up and running.
My mainboard has the 4 small daughterboards each with 6 irfb4110 mosfets. Tested new mosfets for function with dmm before installing them. Isn't there a discussion on this site somewhere about testing these mosfets before using? I couldn't find it.
Anyway, checked all the resistors, etc and each daughterboard got all new mosfets as well as new snubber resistors. The snubber resistors all looked fried but still read correct resistance. Put new ones in anyway.
Have a spare control card so used it and put unit together this morning. All connections good except 10 lead cable from main to control board not plugged in yet. After connecting battery power, noted the leds on each daughterboard were lit, which is supposed to mean the mainboard is functioning and ok. Plugged in the 10 lead cable to the control board. Still good. Turned on powerjack and got pop, pop, and smoke so turned it off. Leds are not lit now on the 2 daughterboards on the +DC input side. Can't yet tell how many exploded there. On the output to transformer side, leds are both still lit even though I can see at least 2 fets have exploded. (Doesn't say much for those leds as health indicators, does it?)
Funny, my experiment that originally fried the pj didn't physically destroy any mosfets. In changing them all only found 1 that read bad out of 24. My repair job results in several exploded fets. How did it get worse? Bad mosfets? Did I do something stupid?
Questions:
Whats the best way to test 4110 mosfets before installing?
By blowing up more mosfets, have I also blown up my opto's and the 4 transistors on the spare control board? Any easy way to test those in place, or should I just automatically replace?
Open to suggestions
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replace the trannies and opto's, and mosfets and resistors again... and await the explosions. :-\
Hopefully thats all that is wrong with it.. if it goes further than the totems and opto's your toast unless your very good at bush ranging.
If it is gone, perhaps do a 8010 board, and change the resistors and put diode across then... at least you know whats happening then.
Testing mosfet. Do an RDSon test. that will show that it turns on, off and carries current. ( I use 10 amps generally).
............oztules
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Thanks Oztules,
I just have to face doing it all again. :(
I did get one of Clockman's books with pc boards, but didn't plan to build just yet.
Hate to waste all this sun so will probably reconfigure the battery bank for 24v and use my 8kw unit in the meantime until I get the 15kw working or build the new 8010 ozcontrol. I have to order more mosfets so it will be awhile
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I'm currently having a run of outs at the moment... on the 8010 board, trying to perfect the current system.... blew two lots of fets up today....sometimes it doesn't pay to play with something that works fine... trying to get that last bit out of it before it current locks.
At least the 8010 board does not seem to go with the fets so far.. it seems to have no problems, even though I designed it to just plug in the three chips and go again.
................oztules
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sometimes it doesn't pay to play with something that works fine
Words to live by!
Glad to hear the 8010 control can survive the fets popping. Definitely a plus!
On an almost unrelated topic, soldering that 8010 chip to its adapter board. I'm old, hands not as steady as they used to be and eyesight not what it used to be either. I'm waiting for a smaller tipped tip for my soldering iron and hoping that helps. I keep bridging pins. Frustrating. Any suggestions?
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If the pins bridge you can use solder wick ( a desolder copper strip - could probably use the sheild off coax if you dont have any) to remove some of the solder ;) . Or drag solder see here http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Solder-SMD-ICs-the-easy-way/ (http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Solder-SMD-ICs-the-easy-way/) .Or you could use a small toaster oven/ heat gun, proper surface mount solder paste / glue and bake it (Google will show you what I mean ;lots of home builders use surface mount) eg:http://www.starlino.com/surface_mount_reflow.html (http://www.starlino.com/surface_mount_reflow.html). RF
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I had the same problem originally.
I used a resin pen from when I did the solar panels.... simply pen some resin on the board... place 8010 on the right spot, and using no solder, and a smallish tip ( actually ended up using normal tip) and a hot iron touch each lead. The board is tinned already, and so the flux then allows the tiny amount to run nicely to the chip legs.
You cant get a run, as there is not enough solder there to do that..... and you may need to clean the tip with wet sponge and water first to get rid of the burnt resin/ rosin and other oxides that may normally be on it.
It takes only 30 seconds or so to do each board, (I did a dozen at once, you get better after each, until it looks professional after about 3 )
It turns out to be simple, but the first ones I did using solder were a disaster as you have presupposed... I heat gunned them off, and started afresh.
RF, how is the egs002 coming along now??
..................oztules
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Thanks Oz and RF,
I've only tried one so far, and yeah, it looks pretty bad. Except one side the row of pins looks like a machine job. Must have gotten in the groove there. (Or an Elf snuck in and did that row.) Couldn't do it again tho. ???
Checked those links RF, good info there. Knew there had to be a better method. Looks like there are several ways to do it. I need to learn some new tricks, looks like.
Think I'll try your method, Oz. Seemed the least likely to end up with a mess
I have i think 8 of the 8010 chips and 10 adapter boards so will be developing some new skills soon
Still looking for my solder wick. Have 3 or 4 of them somewhere. With the house for sale, my work area is now in the garage and my truck is in the driveway, and nothing else is where it should be. Going to have a proper shop area at my next property
Thanks again
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Well Oz ,had a bit of fun with the EGS002 and have smoked a few mucking around with them -2110 drivers are pretty easy to smoke- (driving things that I shouldnt - BIG IGBT's - salvage from industrial VFD's) but havn't done much since the last one . But they perform bloodly well for the $$, been distracted with something else which ; if I get round to will post up eventually. RF
P.S Have ordered one of these to see what it like. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DC-AC-Converter-Pure-Sin-Wave-Inverter-H-Bridge-Drive-Board-TDS2285-/251800396314?hash=item3aa079221a:g:pNwAAOSwa39Uvil5 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DC-AC-Converter-Pure-Sin-Wave-Inverter-H-Bridge-Drive-Board-TDS2285-/251800396314?hash=item3aa079221a:g:pNwAAOSwa39Uvil5)
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Looks interesting...... I want one... ::).. except I have oodles of inverters running around the place now :-[
Not sure the boss will allow much more on this kind of project :'(
..............oztules
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Yup dont up set the boss! .
I want one of these to see if its a a symmetrical drive (bipolar for 8010?) both side at 50Hz (this is why one side suffers heating ?) and opto isolated, Stay safe. RF
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The 8010 is both unipolar and bipolar. Unipolar is 50hz:23khz and bipolar is 23khz:23khz..... a 50hz:50 hz would be square wave AC. methinks.
Any paperwork on it?
.............oztules
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Yes the 8010/EGS002 can do unipolar and bipolar (each has advantages) .Dont have a lot of info on this unit I thought that bipolar was two 50Hz pulse trains which are 180 degree out of phase and phase shift pulse width modulation to produce the sine ;but maybe I am incorrect here so will have to look into it - got me thinking now. I think the asymmetrical drive of unibolar is giving the heating on one side. RF
[attachimg=1]
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As I see it, the heating of the 23khz is only due to switching losses. If your going to spwm, someone has to switch at 23khz to create the D class effect.... can't see how thats done at 50 cycles on each bridge...... unless your going linear.
50hz@ 180 should give us the standard push pull square wave inverter I would have thought... no synthesis there.
Look forward to the testing when you get it.
........oztules
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Yup I see what you are saying, I have now have a zif socket for the 8010's to allow having a fiddle with the pins that allow it ( I am guessing that some are locked as this would appear to be an ATMEGA chip of some type) when I get the time / motivation to do so; but will wait till after the new board turns up and check that out. Have plenty to keep me busy with the EGS002's and haven't even made a board for the 8010 as the EGS002 is to easy . RF
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Oztules, did you find your pic for the lcd screen mod, or can you point out what to connect to what with the resistor;
Edit: A 100r resistor across the back of the LCD screen will keep it on all the time... I will take pics of the mod when I can get one out.
I would like to keep mine on steady when watching power levels or after a new mod, possibly with a toggle switch added. Looked at the back of the lcd, but nothing looked obvious to me.
Thanks
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Just in case anyone still needs a way to adjust output voltage of an original powerjack inverter there is a very non-invasive way and very cheap. For those of you wondering why you would want to do this.... in USA at least, 120v is the most common appliance voltage and powerjack design targets 110v with small drift. 108 is just too low for many appliances, it drives up current and causes poor starting of compressors.
Solution, remove toroid from inverter and wind 14-15 turns 12or14awg wire evenly spaced. Solder/crimp terminals on ends and reinstall toroid. Remove red wire connecting to 110v outlet. Connect one of the leads of new winding to outlet and the other lead of new winding to the red wire you removed earlier. Now double check your work, make sure everything is exactly as it was when you took it apart with exception of the new winding added in series with outlet. Connect dc power and switch on. Measure outlet voltage, if it is 100v power off and swap the leads of the new winding. If it is 122v. Then power off and put lid back on inverter, you are done and your main control board wont know the difference but you get 120-122 v at the outlets.
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lighthunter>
I've got to do the same thing to correct voltage on my PJ 8000 SP. I've been living with 126-0-113 VAC for the last six months. It's synced to microinverters and back charges a 24vdc battery bank when excess solar is available. Aside from the unbalanced voltages, it's been working great.
I'm thinking two separate additional windings of 5-10 turns connected to add/subtract as you've done is the way to go.
You didn't mention any disassembly of the toroid. Can I assume you left the flat copper(?) winding shield intact?
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Solution, remove toroid from inverter and wind 14-15 turns 12or14awg wire evenly spaced. Solder/crimp terminals on ends and reinstall toroid.
Yup, same issue with mine here in central Florida, USA [a stock PowerJack 15kW 48v model]. I am pleased with most operation however anything with a high surge starting current barely runs [e.g., an electric staple gun]. Plus since the wire runs in my home are long [higher I-squared-R losses] the problems are compounded and the outlet voltages are 2-4V lower [106-108v]. When there is a bigger load on the inverter [say 3-4kW], the line voltage sags even more and my UPS switches to battery backup meaning line voltage is under 105v [yikes!].
I want to perform this mod - BUT - I am uncertain as to which toroid you are referencing [mine has two, see attached pic]. Are you referencing the outer one closest to the output side? [where the outlets and on/off switch are located] or the one closer to the middle of the unit?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Hi Phil, welcome to the forum!
I dont at all understand your term "referenced" please elaborate. I will attempt a guess or how I would go about increasing voltage of your inverter.
If yours is a split phase unit, then you will add a few turns to each toroid and connect the new winding in series to add to the voltage of each. The polarity is extremely critical, it must be voltage additive to the original winding.
If yours is not a split phase unit, the two toroids will be connected in parallel, red to red and black to black both sharing the load equally. In this case you will also add a few turns to each. The number of turns and wire size/method /spacing should be as identical between two toroids as possible. When done with winding each, they should be compared for exact voltage output before connecting together.
Does that help? If you provide more info as to specifics of your inverter, i could do a suggested drawing if it helps. Really isnt a hard concept or task for that matter. Just label 4 wires, remove them with toroid, do again for two. Now simply wind 10 or so turns and tape down, do again for second toroid. Next using a 120v power source, check polarity and series connect before adding back to inverter this way no surprises :)
The result when you are done is all the original wiring of the inverter has not been changed except for these two new windings which are added in series with the inverter AC output terminals. The inverter control circuitry never gets to see the added voltage, only your appliances get to see the change. Mine runs at 120-121 on the nose for L1 and L2. Its okay but doing again would try for 123-124, seems like you always loose a couple volts before appliances get it.
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I had related issue with my PJ8000 SP 24v. One side of the center tap at 113v, the other at around 126v. Added two windings. One adding, one bucking. Ended up at 119-120v for both. This is a good solution to voltage adjustments. Thanks, lighthunter!
Caution: If you wind your new turns around the toroid without removing the metal shield, pay attention to the heat from the toroid. My first trial attempt was with 14ga auto wire. Worked great until the insulation melted and the turns shorted against the sharp edge of the band. Duh. That was interesting! Glad I was nearby and could shut the PJ down.
Consider 12ga stranded silicone insulated wire from hobby shop suppliers online. It can handle the heat and is relatively easy to work with. I hold the new windings in place with nylon wire ties, but I doubt that will be a good long term solution. Been working great 24/7 for several months, though.
I also raised the toroid off the metal chassis floor plate and left it open at top and bottom for better airflow with also a curved deflector to force some air up through the middle. You have to experiment with repositioning the temp sensor. Attaching it too close to the toroid will result in early heat shutdown. Too far away and the toroid will get too hot. Not good for efficiency or the windings. Mine is set to shutdown when the metal core reaches around 200 degrees F when I scan it with my point and shoot thermometer. The air "shaded" downstream part of the toroid is definitely hotter than the upstream portion. Some clever ducting is needed to provide more uniform cooling. I'm considering an additional outflow fan at the unit's frontend as a first step.
Bought a second similar PJ unit late 2016 and the windings were symmetrical 114-0-114. When feeding the microinverters to the input/output, voltage rises to around 119v each side. Happy camper! Go figure.
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Your welcome Sunny, and good job with your modification. Refrigerant pumps start so much easier with 120V. To answer an earlier question, yes, I left copper shield in place when adding turns to toroid. In fact I left original mylar in place and just wound magnet wire on top. Since my whole purpose was to reduce heat and increase voltage, I used several strands of 12awg. I used $5 ebay digital temp control for fans.and swapped out the original fan for a delta. Cost $10 at bgmicro, noisy but moves a lot of air (250cfm) almost like hair dryer rpm. My setup is in garage so noise isnt a problem.
Did you get your display to read voltage and current correctly? I found putting the power output leads through the black ct in opposite directions will give additive current/watt readings for both phases. I didnt worry aboot tbe on-board ct. I should find a solution for it to monitor total power as well. All will be fine unless a short occurs on the unmonitored phase. Mine wasnt originally a split design so maybe they have a solution in place for this in a stock split. Keep fuses as small as possible to protect FETs. I use 20A on each phase with 4110fets. They never blow but they do discolor from heat. That gives total power available of 5kw without blowing fuse.
Thanks for tip on silicone wire i like it but never know where to get it. One more thing worthy of mention. The two large waveshaping capacitors on the board normally connect to the whole scondary winding. After this modification, the capacitors cant smooth the power contribution oc the added winding. This omission will make for a rough wave form especially unloaded. Not a big issue but it isnt ideal either. I cant really recommend what I did as a solution as it involves cutting traces on control board and repurposing charger terminals. If you want to correct, you have to get capacitors between L1-N and N-L2 of the oem size.
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Hmmmm. Wasn't thinking about the shaping capacitors. Good tip.
I found the PJ power monitoring LCD display not useful for split phase systems. Disconnected all plugs from LCD going to the control board. I wanted something that stayed on all the time so went with two separate CT-style external displays on L1 & L2 wires going into the PJ from my microinverters. This lets me monitor the microinverter output as they (meters) provide total wattage (added together) since all produced power goes either to house loads, batteries or dump controller. The external meters also provide me more flexibility to physically monitor the system away from the PJ. I'll have to try your opposite direction two wire CT "trick" with my meters.
I could also put CT doughnuts and meters on the output lines going to the load panel to observe phase power going just to the house loads.
I've rewired the front panel to eliminate all possibility of using the charging function of PJ. Got rid of the L1-N-L2 vertical terminal block after noticing the plastic was melting from contact overheating at high power output. I only use the 3-wire euro-style (I internally rewired) blocks. One for L1-N-L2 input, one for output. Makes it simple and straightforward. You can easily change the "E" label to an "L" by carefully scratching off the white paint on the upper arms of the "E" label with a small flat-tipped screwdriver or similar tool. Also, I removed the unused vertical terminal block and AC charger input connector. Improves airflow output through the panel.
Repurposed the fuse holders to separately protect the L1 and L2 wires with 20A slow-blows. Also, unsoldered, physically secured and resoldered all the AC wiring. Most of the original wiring is just tack soldered to the fuse terminals. Not good.
Just received a 120mm 130cfm 12v fan that I'm going to try at the front when I have time. I'm afraid to parallel it to the existing fan wiring (overload). Not sure how or where PJ gets the 12vdc from, but there's plenty of 24vdc to convert down.
Well, sorry, I'm getting off topic, but perhaps some info will be useful to others.
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Hi Phil, welcome to the forum!
If yours is not a split phase unit, the two toroids will be connected in parallel, red to red and black to black both sharing the load equally. In this case you will also add a few turns to each. The number of turns and wire size/method /spacing should be as identical between two toroids as possible. When done with winding each, they should be compared for exact voltage output before connecting together.
Thanks for the warm welcome Lighthunter.
Mine is a stock PJ 15000W 48V single phase and your instructions are pretty clear.
Adding about 15 evenly-spaced turns of 12AWG magnet wire on both toroids should do the trick.
Measuring the output of each before summing them is a great idea just to make sure one is not carrying more load than the other.
From your description, it sounds like the split phase version of this unit just puts these two transformers in series [properly phased] with a N reference. Is this right?
One last Q: what is the operating voltage of the two stock internal fans? Are they like a PC's @12V?
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Mine is a stock PJ 15000W 48V single phase and your instructions are pretty clear.
Adding about 15 evenly-spaced turns of 12AWG magnet wire on both toroids should do the trick.
[An LF15000 is probably capable of 5000w continuous which translates to 21A continuous per toroid.
You need at least 2 strands of awg12 do 3 if it isnt too much trouble. I should have mentioned that earlier. Awg12 is good for 20A on a straight run but when you curl it in a ball every bit of heat counts and you want to help cool those toroids not heat em up.]
Measuring the output of each before summing them is a great idea just to make sure one is not carrying more load than the other.
. [Absolutely right on! if the two toroids you have were supplying separate load circuits, a mistake in wiring isnt fatal, it just produces wrong voltage but you will be paralleling the windings (unless they kept separate and feed two independent output with instruction not to bridge). When paralleling windings the voltage must be same and the phase must be same. My favorite way to finish this type of connection is to do all wiring except the last secondary winding connection. Then, power up unit and measure the AC volts between that last toroid secondary wire and the point you intend to connect to. If there is a measurable voltage by a small amount .5v or more, the turn numbers are mismatched, if you measure 10 or more volts then the winding output wires are probably reversed. Only if AC voltage is next to 0 can you power off and make final connection.
From your description, it sounds like the split phase version of this unit just puts these two transformers in series [properly phased] with a N reference. Is this right?
[Yes you are right, although there are powerjack toroids out there that are center tapped for this purpose also. Either way works fine.
One last Q: what is the operating voltage of the two stock internal fans? Are they like a PC's @12V?
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[I couldnt say for sure, Oztules or someone with more experience will hopefully help with that. Both my powerjacks came stock as 24v units and all 4 fans are 24v. I assume that both fans will be same vltage as the design battery voltage. That would make sense but its only a guess.
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@sunypower, if you ever decide you want 48v instead of 24, the toroids are real easy to split primary windings into two groups and series connect for 48v. The primary is actually overwound once you do that and increases power handling ability. Of course, secondary will still be same. I just bought a new control board of 48v but it wouldnt be hard to clip the two power wires in the ribbon cable and feed the board 24v from a 48v to 24v buck regulator. This solution of course would disable battery volt monitoring so you would need another watchdog for that.
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Hi..i am a new user here. In my setup the PJ is outputing to two separate toroids primaries with series secondaries producing 240v. The external transformer then is connected across the 240v and feeds back on an isolated.Winding the 110v the pj control needs, to be in balance. This mod does cause the pj control to drive primaries 1 volt higher than original design. In some cases with low battery voltage it could cause a problem.
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Hi Ricky welcome!
The external transformer then is connected across the 240v and feeds back on an isolated.Winding the 110v the pj control needs, to be in balance. This mod does cause the pj control to drive primaries 1 volt higher than original design. In some cases with low battery voltage it could cause a problem.
At one time I had what appears to be the same connection setup you are describing.
On my setup, the control board was monitoring 110v to be in balance but that was true only because it was originally a 110v/24v 60hz cntrl board. I had added the 240v split phase part.
What I didnt realize at the time I wrote some posts in this thread is that the cntrl boards designed for 110/220 normally monitor the 220v not 110 as you describe. I'm curious, was your control board originally a split phase board? Or did you change it into split?
You are absolutely right on about the battery voltage. Thats why i eventually changed the AC volt increase method to a few turns on each toroid secondary and series connected each to AC output without letting cntrl board monitor the boost.
For me low bat volts was never an issue though since i used lithium 24v at that time.
For those that are concerned about keeping AC voltage up to 120 there are two other factors that should be mentioned.
1) wire sizes, if you have a fair distance to transport your AC power you will not regret putting in heavy wire. In USA120/240 split phase service to a residence is often run with 4/0 (107mmsq copper even for distances of 100feet or 35meters. That may be an overkill for an inverter but some guys are reaching incredible power levels and it takes wire to do it without v drop. I choose AWG 6 (13mmsq) and so far it has been solid at 30amps/phase 7kw. My fuses blow after that so its sufficient for me but everyones needs are different.
2.)Unlike most everywhere else, in USA we use much of the power at 120v rather than 240 so efficiency can go down due to vdrop unless we balance the two sides equally. I found that out even with awg 6. All i guess im saying is when you actually watch the numbers during motor starts its more important than a guy thinks.