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Project Journals => User Journals => Oztules => Topic started by: oztules on January 05, 2016, 12:55:16 AM

Title: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on January 05, 2016, 12:55:16 AM
Had a bit of free time to play with the EGS002 board recently... and this is as far as I have had time at this stage
Did a quick circuit board to match the PJ h bridge board and one I cobbled together to test initially.
The board looks like this
[attachimg=1]

Is  as simple as I can do for a pre run.

Here it is running a 40 watt load

[attachimg=2]

It was the only filament globe I had

[attachimg=3]

There is only 1 fet per bridge as in this:

[attachimg=4]

I also built a little h bridge to test initially which worked fine too:

[attachimg=5]

It will be noted I made it compatible with the PJ connections so  if it worked I could just plug in the pj... it did.

the output looks like this @ 240v:

[attachimg=6]

As you can see, my scope could not handle the output, so I turned it down a bit to 180v or thereabouts to se it complete

[attachimg=7]

Later added 200 watts of resistor, and the thing behaved exactly the same.

The fet stayed cold during this, so it looks like time to use 6 fets/bank, and use the main battery bank, and a bigger transformer to see how well it drives more fets.

If the transitions stay within a decent band, it may require no more drive than the board supplies.. I can hope.....

[attachimg=8]


So the test was fine, and when I get time I will expand on it.

My preference is for isolated supplies for the high and low switching... but will see how this goes first.
I ran it as low as 68vac up to 260vac, seems completely stable all the way up and down.
The 56vdc power supply is only 300w, so I went as far as I dared for the first runs.
These boards can be bought for as little as $7-$8 each from aliexpress if you want to play cheaply.

Did not get a chance to test current limits obviously, but the temp limiter works ( put it against 200w resistor).It self resets when I took the temp probe away from the resistor just fine.
Soft start works well. Starts under the 240w load no problem, smooth and clean wave. Frequency stable, and amplitude climbs to set point nicely.

Very interesting unit to start out with. I suspect you could get 600 or more watts with a single fet h bridge with 48v unit.

Edit..... I know it is hard to see the globe.... it blends in with the background well.





......................oztules

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on January 05, 2016, 02:39:48 AM
That's really Nice!
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on January 06, 2016, 01:22:00 AM
Great stuff Oz! :) .This looks like it will make a nice roll your own solution for the driver boards allowing great flexibility depending on its load ability ; did you get any of the LCD's that couple to the EGS002?, not that there is a lot of useful info from it.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on January 06, 2016, 03:52:48 AM
No LCD from them, although I have plenty of lcd screens i could use I suppose.

It does look to be very useful, and if it turns out that it is stable with all kinds of loads, it may well be a good replacement for the power jack control card.

Easy to draw up the PJ fet card with a few more bits on it to improve it 's layout, and get a few printed in double thickness.
I do like the idea of separate cards.

This would make a very very cheap high power unit..... no idea how good it will be until we give it a proper trial, but going my yesterdays tests, it does look good.

How it handles the current transients I don't know. The PJ is good in that it gives you 3 x power for 12 seconds, then gives up, not sure how much this will do before it gives up etc etc. Keen to find out, but too many folks with problems to solve the last few days.... need to work on the big windmills here tomorrow to track down some problems there with their direction electronics....always something.

Island life is perfect, but sometimes hectic as well....


...............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on January 13, 2016, 04:01:40 PM
Recovery time under load should be good 1-3 cycles max, this board will provide surge performance to the point that undervoltage on pin 9 is detected (2.75v) lifted from the data sheet (see below);  I would guess that provided your FET's are up to it and supply line voltage does not drop it should be good, will look forward to your further tests. Stu

Quote
To prevent output voltage is too low or too high when supply to the load, EG8010 has integrated
overvoltage and undervoltage protection. Overvoltage protection is set at 3.15V with 300mS delay.
Undervoltage protection is set at 2.75V with 3S delay. When either situation happens, depending on
pin (9)PWMTYP’s setting, EG8010 will set the level of SPWMOUT1 to SPWMOUT4 at “0” or “1”,
and shut down all power MOSFET to decrease the voltage to zero. Eight seconds after overvoltage
or undervoltage protection activates, EG8010 will turn on power MOSFET for 100ms to
re-determine output voltage. If overvoltage or undervoltage issue still exists, EG8010 will repeat the
process above every eight seconds. If EG8010 runs regularly for more than one minute, it will zero
the counter of overvoltage and undervoltage. However, if EG8010 does not function regularly after
five 8-second cycle, it will complete turn off the output of SPWM unit. It needs a hard reset to start
again.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on January 13, 2016, 11:16:36 PM
I have been far too darn busy for the last few weeks... and the salt water RO machine has taken me longer to do the electronics and computer programming for.. it is always too long between playing with the programming, and I forget all the syntax, and spend too much time wondering why it wont work as I wanted.. or even compile etc... wish I was better at this stuff.
Now have a arduino nano with 30 wires coming away from it... then wondering where they all go .....etc. etc.

I will get to it...if you don't get there first, then you can tell me....

Where does the time go....


.................oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on February 12, 2016, 04:15:58 PM
Finally got some time to play (* albeit small).
Wound 25 turns onto a 3kw aerosharp torroid to get a 48v transformer to drive a bit harder... looks like this:
[attachimg=1]


Then a 2100w stove element , and we get this:
[attachimg=2]


Voltage was this
[attachimg=3]


Current this:
[attachimg=4]

test unit looks like this:
[attachimg=5]

Ok, things we found out.
The unit ran quite cool considering 40 amps over only 2 fets per bridge for 10 mins. :)
The voltage was controllable, very smooth. :)
The current control worked.... but there was a problem.     :o  When I used a welding transformer ( EI type) the current feedback seemed to  work fine, but the torroid blew the thing to bits when I  then  turned the pot to make the current sense more acute and make the  current regulation start....instant fusion reaction actually, and fire bombed the fets.... the smoke was well and truly released. :(

So it looks like another system of current shut off is necessary for big torroids... thats the only reason I can see for the blow up..... other ideas welcome.
It seems that the shut down current control must change the frequency or some other rapid wave change problem that the transformer reacts badly too... don't know, but will try to find a reason.... more fets must die in the name of progress I think..... :-[

Torroids are very good, but take no prisoners... they are electrically stiff.

Apart from that, the little test was impressive to say the least. A 3 second soft start was good, the current regulation was good, the voltage rock steady throughout, mostly happy... but would be ecstatic if the current control had not have blown 8 more fets to hell.... with more to come I can bet.

Anyone else been playing with these things yet?


............oztules



Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on February 12, 2016, 06:47:47 PM
Me think's its pin nine set to turning on the bridge resulting in FET smoke (or maybe for a torroid the dead time needs to be extended?). I have all the bits but havn't done anything yet (to hot to go out to the shed on days off) From the data sheet

"Pin IFB measures the output load current for overcurrent protection detection. As the current sampling and feedback circuit shown in figure 8.1a, pin IFB’s reference peak voltage is 0.5V and overcurrent detection time is 600mS. If current is higher than inverter’s lad current by some reason, EG8010 will set the electrical level of SPWMOUT1 to SPWMOUT4 at “0” or “1” and shut down all
power MOSFET to decrease the voltage to zero depending on pin (9)PWMTYP’s setting. This function mainly protects power MOSFET and the load. Sixteen seconds after overcurrent protection
activates, EG8010 will turn on power MOSFET for 100ms to re-determine load current. If overcurrent issue still exists, EG8010 will repeat the process above every sixteen seconds. If EG8010
runs regularly for more than one minute, it will zero the counter of overcurrent. However, if EG8010 does not function regularly after five 16-second cycle, it will complete turn off the output of SPWM unit. It needs a hard reset to start again. If in some scenarios the starting current is relatively high and it takes longer timeto start, which overcurrent protection is not suitable, Pin IFB can beconnected to the ground."

9 PWMTYP I
PWM type select
“0”: positive polarity PWM type,MOSFET on when SPWMOUT is high
“1” positive polarity PWM type,MOSFET on when SPWMOUT is low
Best configuring pin according to driver device and referring to the typical
application schematic below, otherwise will result in both sides of MOS
tubes conducting at the same time.

and dead time could be an issue with a stiff inductor

Pin DT1, DT0 controls the dead time. Dead time control is one of the important characteristics
of power MOSFET. Lack of enough dead time will result in the damage of MOSFET due to
conduction. If the dead time is too long, it will lead to distortion of waveform and overheating of
MOSFET. Figure 8.5a is EG8010’s four dead time control settings.“00”= 300nS. “01”= 500nS.
“10”= 1uS. “11”= 1.5uS.

Just my 2c worth. Stu
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on February 13, 2016, 02:27:38 PM
Thanks Stu.
I have pondered those bits of the data sheet for some time.
 I will use the big EI tranny again, to check if this is really the problem.

It looks like it is unipolar operation on my boards.... which is another problem with the EG002 boards for me.

This means the high switch on one side is working in  high frequency, and one side is 50 hz...... I want to switch the high side on both bridges at 50hz, and this will make the driver much simpler.

As it is, the 50hz high side using the current pump is sloppy, and bleeds off too quickly. It cant maintain current for long enough unless you use a bigger cap on the charge pump..

Add this to the current regulation with torroids, and I think it will be better to just buy the chips for a few dollars and make my own board.

So I want 50hz high side switching, a small circuit that will unambiguously shut the thing off, or maybe a nano arduino to monitor, and make decisions on time and action.
I want isolated high side power supply..... so really there is nothing on the commercial offering I need to use ... apart from the crystal and chip..... don't want their drivers either.

I will persist with the tests on these boards, but feel i will probably move on at some stage and go it alone.


Hope the weather cools so you can do some tests of your own.


..............oztules

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 12, 2016, 12:31:15 AM
The big EI tranny works fine........ with the current control ..... although only barely surviving in fact.... lots of noise on current shut off... and the scope gave the reasons why.

So it appears that the IFB pin on the board goes to not just the ifb pin on the chip... which would shut it down properly, but also to two differential amplifiers. These intercept the signal from the  CT, and then process it. One signal goes to the inhibit of the driver chips, and one to the inhibit of the main chip.

What this really means, is there is a short period where three things are competing for the right to shut the thing down on an over current event.... this leads to a train of small pulses from one of them, that causes the disasters with the torroid.... which one....... I don't care! ... the system has to go.....

I don't know how others have circumvented this behavior, but I decided to use the temp input as the over load input instead, and get rid of the other offending signals completely... ie effectively short the ifb signal pin out, and instead, use the CT output and  send it to the temp input.

The good thing about the temp input, is the moment it goes above 4.3v, it shuts down instantly... no train pulses to be seen.. so it causes no problems with either the torroid or the big EI transformer...... the other beauty of it, is that it is programmed to restart with a 3 second soft start...every time, not like the unit does form low voltage etc etc.... this suits the torroid fine..... and it also means you dont make changes to  the commercial board, they stay interchangeable and complete.

I am also using this input for the on/off, as it never fails to soft start.

Cooling will be done by my system anyway, so no loss of usability, and you can still use this input as the temperature shut down as well if you so choose to have a doomsday heat shut off.

Currently designing a from scratch board, with isolated driver voltages for the high side, and so that  also means pwm control of the DC side.... safer from spikes in the battery line, and also the egs8010 chip is only a few dollars anyway.... so the complete boards will be very cheap, with opto drivers for high and low.. this means a blow up will only take out the optos and fets.... never the board..... I like that sort of thing... especially for testing.

These things are unipolar in the type i bought, but the 50hz is on both a high side switch, and a low side switch.... not what I expected.

The high frequency high side switch gets warmer than the 50hz high side switch,( as expected ), but for this little 3kw unit, will be fine.. little heat even at 2-2.5kw, and thats with lousy fet drivers driving two fets per leg running 40-50 amps or so The commercial driver chips are not up to the 50hz, as they sag badly with the pump system on the high side drivers. They seem to be only able to handle 2 fets of the 4110 type, as the capacitance is quite high on the gates for hex fets.... not sure I'm game to use 3 or 6 fets per leg on these.

The other thing is that measuring newer PJ boards, they are bipolar outputs, so the opto's are driving the high side at 20khz just fine... I'm sure on the original one I played with, it was unipolar, and the high side was only 50 hz... maybe I was wrong.....

( unipolar runs 20khz for the spwm modulated legs and fundamental frequency for the other two ( 50 hz square waves ), the bipolar uses spwm modulation on all four )


...............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frackers on March 12, 2016, 03:55:28 AM
That's some great info - I've a couple on their way and I plan to get one of my logic analysers onto one early on to see what sort of signals are floating about!!

I've been playing with the STM32F0 and STM32F1 series micros a lot recently and am about to start a project with the better M4 core STM32F3 series that has DSP capabilites (fast 64 bit multiple and accumulate and saturated arithmetic for example) and clocks at 72MHz but with 3 PWM timers that can run from 144MHz there is a lot of scope for high resolution operations. The development board is NZ$20 and includes the programmer/debugger. So much nicer to have debugging via an IDE instead of a few dodgy printfs or waggling pins on an AVR :)

Now the power transformer construction is understood I'm more inclined to experiment as I rather doubt I could blow it up if I tried!! MOSFETs are cheap although driving 12nF of gate capacitance on each of 5-6 hexfets but the Toshiba optos seem a good bet provided I can get my head round the high side supply design.

I think there might be life in the old git yet ;)

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 12, 2016, 06:14:09 AM
Nearly finished designing the board. There is no circuit as usual.......
You are welcome to reverse engineer it or modify it using protel pcb software.

The 3842 pwm stage is done with three isolated 12v outputs, the opto section is done, just waiting for the chinese to send me the tiny adapter boards that will allow me to use the 8010 like a  normal 32pin  chip and so  just plug the eg8010 adaptor into mine... and etch it.....

Bought these http://www.aliexpress.com/item/HOT-New-IC-EG8010-8010-EG-QFP32/32435098232.html
and this http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/301708635193?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

You can buy small ( like a small relay sized) isolated pwm things for modest outlays also... like this http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DC-DC-Converter-Isolated-Power-Module-In-10-16V-Out-12V-4-Pins-for-Auto-Car-Boat-/121569486627?hash=item1c4e1b2723:g:7iYAAOSw4UtWR~DP
Not too sure how many fets they could drive... duty cycle would probably allow them to do it ok.... or use two etc...... simpler than winding a tiny hf transformer like I have.

I do like the robustness of the unit I have done on my previous bldc controller board..... we'll see how this goes.... I am pretty confident in it's ability to perform actually.

I may use a scr to trigger the o/current on the temp pin, and have a hard start from o/load only... not sure yet.


................oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frackers on March 12, 2016, 01:56:59 PM
Nearly finished designing the board. There is no circuit as usual.......
You are welcome to reverse engineer it or modify it using protel pcb software.

Thats a shame - I not only don't have access to Protel, I don't have access to Windows to run it!!

Quote
The 3842 pwm stage is done with three isolated 12v outputs, the opto section is done, just waiting for the chinese to send me the tiny adapter boards that will allow me to use the 8010 like a  normal 32pin  chip and so  just plug the eg8010 adaptor into mine... and etch it.....

Bought these http://www.aliexpress.com/item/HOT-New-IC-EG8010-8010-EG-QFP32/32435098232.html
and this http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/301708635193?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Good idea - my eyesight and hand-eye coordination are degrading at an equal rate and my homemade PCBs wouldn't be up to SMD reliably

Quote
You can buy small ( like a small relay sized) isolated pwm things for modest outlays also... like this http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DC-DC-Converter-Isolated-Power-Module-In-10-16V-Out-12V-4-Pins-for-Auto-Car-Boat-/121569486627?hash=item1c4e1b2723:g:7iYAAOSw4UtWR~DP
Not too sure how many fets they could drive... duty cycle would probably allow them to do it ok.... or use two etc...... simpler than winding a tiny hf transformer like I have.

A scan of AliExpress got me to these guys http://www.aliexpress.com/store/1302754 (http://www.aliexpress.com/store/1302754) who have a suitable 6w range that can take 72v on the input - not too cheap though :(

Quote
I do like the robustness of the unit I have done on my previous bldc controller board..... we'll see how this goes.... I am pretty confident in it's ability to perform actually.

I may use a scr to trigger the o/current on the temp pin, and have a hard start from o/load only... not sure yet.

Keep us updated, with the parts problems for the PJs it is always handy to have another arrow in the quiver!

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 12, 2016, 05:23:41 PM
I run protel for windows.....on LINUX under wine....
New software is downloadable for free as a test for 30 days or so..... from arrium now. ( bought protel)... don't know if it runs under wine.

Will do a pdf of it when finished.

I expect any 48v PJ board would be suitable... just change CT network ( 1 resistor and maybe swap the heavy 15kw CT.... different thickness primary is all I think)... so should be parts available if you need them.

..........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frwainscott on March 13, 2016, 12:47:25 AM
what if you used an over-wound toroid (less iron) so it is closer to saturation,somewhat as a bottleneck,or an r-c filter between the board and toroid,or just a choke or possibly both. I think if you can slow the current drop or rise. I don't think it would effect anything else much,but it might stop the implosion of the 4110's. I'm just thinking if you get the right buffer between the board and the toroid it should buffer it ,possibly enough to stop the surge. Feel free to correct my thoughts,as i dont know much.......  Frank
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 13, 2016, 05:30:11 AM
Efficiency is the problem with those kinds of efforts.

I have found a better way... not what I wanted to do... but the animal in me got out.... ( and I was lazy and could not be bothered with jamming in an scr to shut it off on overload..... other wise it retries too fast using the temp contact without a latch)

Here is the relevant picture. ( click to see properly )

[attachimg=1]

I got the razor blade out and removed the 393... shorted pins 7 to 8 and then made a jumper from 1 to 4.
This gets the inhibit pins of both the drivers and the main chip to turn off (/ or on depending how you want to  say it I guess) ... unequivocally.... ie they no longer get to inhibit anymore.

Then use the current IFB input as designed. It then behaves with no problems.
I cant understand why they used the 393 in the first place, unless the IFB signal from their resistive sense was too small, but they needed to get the timing correct so that the IFB pin on the main ship got the message first, but that is not the case. They decided to inhibit in three places at the same time..... and failed miserably. Not noticed with EI transformers ( but for odd noises), but lethal for torroids..... now it is fine, and I can use the current o/load in the chip to do the stop... test.... stop ... test etc, then turn off needing hard start.

The current transformer ( CT) has plenty of output, and needs attenuation and a small filter to behave nicely.
This is using the board at the start of this thread.

I still prefer the temp TFB pin for on  and off at this stage.

Now it seems I can try all I might, but cannot fool it into blowing the fets.... up to 2.5kw at least.

2kw ( 2 fets/leg) and it runs for quite a while before it starts to warm up much at all ( 10 mins), and thats with no other cooling... very useable now.

Will still make the new board when I get to it, just so I can go full power to 8kw or more.... we'll see when I get some time.

Will post some pics when I can get the camera to talk to the computer again...... something squiffy at the present time.

It does look like a very simple and cheap way of getting a very solid little  inverter.... for pennies really.

This is the first draft of  what the board will look like not using the pre-made board, but with the three isolated supplies, opto's and chip... still have to put on the CT and voltage feedback stuff..... should fit......

[attachimg=3]



................oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on March 13, 2016, 01:56:48 PM
Looking good 'oztules', looking good!......... I do love the way you logically charge in with scalpel in hand, so to speak.....

ooohhhh,.......... Joined Aliexpress today ........... got some of those 8010 32pin SMD chips heading this way.  Now this will get interesting.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on March 13, 2016, 02:29:00 PM
Nice work Oz  :) .Be interested to see how much load you can get out of the standard commercial board drivers but 2-3kw is pretty good (but 5-8Kw would be the ducks!) for the price $8-10 Aus an old Aerosharp transformer.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 13, 2016, 03:37:00 PM
RF.. will try three fets today perhaps, and see how they fare...... I may be selling them short, but it does not feel like 8kw is possible for long with the standard board drivers..... and I don't get excited about driver chips either..... just a hangover from bad experiences with them.

Frackers, those DCDC converters look good... not the dual output ones though... they share a common.
Also, when you see how simple a roll your own pwm solution is, you will want to use that instead.

Clockman, it is looking like a simple new board and a tranny and output card will do what we have already..... few hundred dollars less.

...........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 14, 2016, 12:24:58 AM
Well, the sad news is...... that I have proved myself totally wrong.

After messing about all day using different numbers of fets etc.... I am back to where i started, but with 24 fets running from the driver chips....... and the problem is... they are running really very very well..

In fact after running 30 mins at 2400 watts, the heat sinks were between stone cold, and less than skin temp.... there was some air movement inside the shed...... but gee it was impressive.

So I looks like I may not have to build the new boards after all.
After cutting out the 393, and making only 1 chip responsible for shutting things down, the results are rather stunning... and shot fets are a thing of the past... tried everything I can, but no faulting.... and yes the current limiter works fine too now.

With 3 fets, it was no problem to get 4400watts out of it starting a air compressor with a  fairly full tank....ie used 18-19 amps( @240v) in start, and settled back to 6-7 amps running ( 2hp el cheapo motor ).. I was impressed...... no voltage sag at all that the meter registered , then hooked up the house to it........ running 1 huge fridge, one 700 liter freezer, water pump ( 1hp) 2000w microwave oven for 2 min at the same time, and 2 televisions and wall warts......and computers....darn impressive.

With 6 fets, the drivers still kept the wave form fairly good, and heat was not prevalent at all..... less than the PJ in fact for the same loads.. so all the things I did and said about these drivers is mute and wrong..... it was the wrong resistors on the gate that caused the problems.

It looks as if I need not make the new board, as it seems to be hard to better the current situation.

More solid testing is needed, and the 290 amp old style welder should feature in this, as that stops most inverters ( and 13hp honda generators can't run it when you pull the trigger either). If it can pull that off while running the house loads, then it will be as good as the PJ, and if it does it with even less heat... then better.

So we need 1 small board, one modified egs002 board, one monster transformer...1 fet board........ and we have a very very competitive unit.
Will get the pics out of the camera somehow soon.

One really wonder at how some of the manufacturers justify their pricing... they really would struggle to beat these things from the looks of it.

Questions and comments??

..................oztules

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on March 14, 2016, 01:05:11 AM
Oz..
Wow that’s pretty impressive  8) and certainly looks like they are easily worth the $8-9 Aus . I look forward to the welder test  :)
Its always nice to be wrong in the right way.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 14, 2016, 02:32:58 AM
Yes, impressive is the word.
Used the big mig on setting 6 .. range 2 high set..... maximum current was in the 25-30 amp@240v range..... stable voltage on the DVM.... cro might be more interesting.... but not much to see I suspect.... recovery in less than .05 seconds or more.

So it ran at 30x240= 7000w or more...... intermittent usage, so can probably do it all day... a long weld would have blown the 68A circuit breaker I was using for protection. In the 1/2 second mode, it would probably take 150-200 amps before letting go.

I was fixing a big cryovac machine for folks over here, and tested it on that. With cold oil, and first turn on for the day, the digital peak amp meter went off the 40a scale, then settled back at 8 amps.... so start up cold oil is in the  40X240=9600 watts... must have lasted for 1/4 to 1/2 a second I guess, as the machine had no hesitation in any way to fie up.... damn impressive stuff.... and it looks so childish too.

The weakest link at the moment is the single  big torroid, it would be happy at 3kw all day, but not for long periods above that.
I am starting to get comfortable with it now... no fets blowing, and this time I am trying..... impressed.... yes.

Camera has died completely... dammit it had some good pics too.

Clockman/frackers... may be time to get ready to do some boards............. the fet board of the 10kw unit will be the one to copy I think.... big resistors and no messing with sub boards.


.................oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on March 14, 2016, 03:05:58 AM
"So we need 1 small board, one modified egs002 board, one monster transformer...1 fet board........ and we have a very very competitive unit."

My hat is duly raised.

I will be interested in how you lay the big FET Power board out.
I like the simple way the PJ board is designed, but would really like to get rid of all that excess solder everywhere, perhaps some simple straps soldered on?

Same with the AC connections bit on the control card.

Perhaps I am leaping ahead a bit too quick. ?

Hi Oztules........Photo....... The PJ 10kW board, which I am about to add those 2 new caps.

The Old PJ 2013, 10kW Power board, single main double sided board at 278mm long by 172mm wide, standard solder resistors, 0.5w 20k and 47r. 24off MOSFETS 4310. 6 centre positioned can capacitors 10000uf 80v, 60mm high by 35mm dia. Heat sinks 80mm x 25mm 12 fin, max length 268mm and the other for the Toroid Primary is split into 2 half’s.

I would be happy to take this apart and have re-made. Might open the tracks and beef up in a few places?
 As I said the Caps at those dims are now classed as 100v, the heatsinks are a pain they do not seem to be a stock size and there electrical connection to the board needs some looking into.    But now I have AliExpress..........
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on March 14, 2016, 03:10:45 AM
If its allright with you 'oztules' I will fit your new & modified boards to my New BigOzinverter 38kg torroid.

I do have a PJ 15kW set ready, but I am always up for a challenge.

Photo......Underside of the PJ 10kW Power Board
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frackers on March 14, 2016, 03:34:30 AM
According to NZ Post they have left the country of origin - been at that status for the last week :(
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 14, 2016, 03:49:31 AM
Yep, those are the boards I referred to..... I would use the same layout, but with slightly bigger tracks, and more room between the fet pads ... I think they are a bit close for comfort.

Other than that they are sensibly layed out... I like them, heavier copper or more solder would be all you can do really..... they seem to work just fine when you think about it.

I will tidy up the board and endeavour to give you as much information as I can so you can emulate it if you wish.

Tomorrow will give it a big run at 2.5kw element and 1.5kw element. It has no cooling at the present, but there was air movement today in the shed, and that must have contributed to the cold heat sinks.... 4kw should warm them up surely..... the transformer will at that rate, as I used thinner wire than normal for the primary... it was just a quick test... thats my excuse at the moment anyway.

They do look promising I must say..... have to think what else I must add to the board before the next one.

Still have to find a idiot proof way of shutdown and start up without relying on the temp input... haven't even bothered to look really yet.

When it is pulling 3-4kw, you feel a bit queezy the first time you interrupt it.. but the temp terminal does it well.

I do think it is worth a shot anyway Clockman.


.... all because the sma wouldn't play properly.........you have really suffered for it.



................oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on March 14, 2016, 04:22:38 AM
"I will tidy up the board and endeavour to give you as much information as I can so you can emulate it if you wish".

Yes Please.

PCB layout and making, gosh back to school for me again, all my old PCB stuff/ programs was DOS, late 1980's, pushed into windows shell.
So I have to start again, new tanks, new chems, new masks, new blank boards etc, hmm........  or do I just send a scan of each side, modified/altered on the PC and send the real size scans away to someone,  just fits on a sheet of A4 paper, to be PCB ed?

".... all because the sma wouldn't play properly.........you have really suffered for it."

'oztules' you gave me that extra knowledge and confidence to do my own Inverter that puts SMA to shame. Thanks!
Although, after promising, they still have not put the cash into my Bank account, Trading Standards folk still on them.

If you like I can start a new Topic on this forum about the BigOzInverter Build once I get those EGS002 boards.



Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 14, 2016, 04:25:29 AM
Tried to use a tablet camera...... eeesssshhh...

But crappy pics are better than no pics I guess.

Here we are tonight trying the 4kw tests.... it stayed scary cool.... but there was a gentle breeze working through the workshop, but after 10 mins, the heat sinks were cool..... and the heat from the coils was intense... as per pic below

[attachimg=1]

The camera did not pick up the low light meters well... but if you try you can see the figures

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

pic of the coils and transformer still warming up

[attachimg=4]

We can see it doing a happy 4000w ... with no effort on the temp front at all... I am dead set amazed at what I am seeing... it is so cold.... and yet there is not that much of a breeze in the work shop..... staggered at this stage.... bit too good to be true.... why are these things not all over the net??

And this is the tiny unit doing all of this......

[attachimg=6]

...............oztules

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 14, 2016, 06:51:53 PM
Well today it is becoming particularly scary good.
I am running the house on it, ie fridges, freezers, tv, computers, 2500watts of hot water. this was humming away nicely at 27-3200 watts for an hour or so, temp held fine at less than 50C..( 20khz low side heat sink... hotter than the rest??). no fans.... placed a 120mm fan near the high freq low side heat sink, as it was the only one warm, the rest were at least 10C less than it. The 50hz legs were basically cold. The fan was running with 40ohms in series with a 12v source... slow running silent.

The it was time to boil the water in her 3000w kettle...... fired it up, no changes sound wise, no real jump in temp... it ran for the next few minutes at about 6kw.... ( 3kw jug takes no time to boil)

So it runs the 6kw without a problem, the 68A o/load just hung on @ 120 amps for the 2 minutes or so as expected ( thats how o/loads work... they do not blow at 68 amps), it is still running at 3kw now as I type, ans will for the next hour or so until the hot water shuts off, then back to 500-1.3kw depending on fridges and freezers. With the slow speed fan just moving the air, the temp of the hotter leg dropped down to 28C.... happy puppy here..

The simple little thing is nearly ready for prime time...... yes I'm gobsmacked.


dazed and confused as ever....

.................oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frackers on March 14, 2016, 06:58:31 PM

Hi Oztules........Photo....... The PJ 10kW board, which I am about to add those 2 new caps.


Looks like the legs of the MOSFETs are splayed out on that board - much more than on mine which has the daughter boards. Also mine has 4 identical daughter boards (same revision) but the toroid drivers ones have a ferrite bead on the gate but the ones on the supply heatsink don't. I haven't checked the values of the passive components on the boards.

Talking of MOSFETs, is there a benefit of going to the TO-247AC cased 4110 rather than the TO-220AB ? Seems to be no price hit but if they are not cooking in the first place...


Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 14, 2016, 07:34:02 PM
If I could get the 247 at the 220 price I would do it in a heart beat... but I pay only 75c per fet for the 220.... have not seen hide nor hair of 247 for anywhere near the same price.
The 220 4110 seem to do just fine, but a bigger die would be better I think.

Beware of the cheap chinese ones I buy, as you need to test them to see what they have given you.
The last 2 batches of 50 were in the 3.5-6mohm range where they should be, but that is not always the case... I check then each time I buy.

Hour or more on the tests, still in the 2-3kw range for the last hour or so, and still holding at 27C on the hottest heatsink with 5v fan supply...very slow, but enough for these levels it appears.

Keen to see your transformer performance.

.....oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Phred on March 15, 2016, 05:49:18 AM
Beware of the cheap chinese ones I buy, as you need to test them to see what they have given you.
The last 2 batches of 50 were in the 3.5-6mohm range where they should be, but that is not always the case... I check then each time I buy.



.....oztules
[/quote]
Are`you suggesting some the transistors marked with I v R could be counterfeits? BTW have you seen an alternative board marked k2b-2 that uses a pic micro instead?
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Phred on March 15, 2016, 05:08:49 PM
To get Data sheet & EGS002 manual use this link. As this site is in Chinese scroll down the page to find them
http://www.egmicro.com/products/inv_tran.php
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 15, 2016, 11:31:16 PM
Phred, if we pay nothing for them, then we take a chance.... some good some bad.
I got 20 mc33033 chips, and I don't know what they really were but they were not three phase motor driver chips... thats for sure.

I have bought 100 lots of 4110 that ranged from 3mohm to 90mohm....... you get what you pay for..... but if you persist you can get a good seller that gives you what you paid for.

If you test them all, you find the voltage is always about right, but the rds on is the problem.
I suspect they make them, and sort them... those inside the parameters are real 4110, and those that aren't are usually called a different part number.... in these cases, they kept with 4110.

pay lots and get it right or pay very much less and take the chance... I do the latter, as after they are checked, in a lot of my applications, derated fets are fine for a lot of other jobs that don't need 3mohm rds figures to be perfectly satisfactory.... ie use the 3mohm in the big inverters, and the lesser ones in other projects.


.................oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Phred on March 16, 2016, 03:11:00 AM
Yes it was over 30 yrs`ago US semiconductor co uncovered a slick trade out of Taiwan in substandard reject parts be banded with original logos. Looks like the trade is still live & well
 In that case to save me reinventing the wheel could u plse post the good supplier you have.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 16, 2016, 06:35:21 AM
The last two lots came from here:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/50pcs-free-shipping-IRFB4110-FB4110-B4110-IRFB4110PBF-100V-3-7mO-180A-370W-FET-100-new-original/32431611261.html

That does not mean they will be the same next time, but I was pleasantly surprised wit the last few shipments... but so far so good.

I see they have gone up as our dollar has gone down since last time.... 93 cents a piece now... dammit.

I have paid less than 50c too, but they were around the 65mohm ( with a few 4mohms among them )...... but still 65mohm is still not that shabby at 100v.... still cheap, just not what I wanted at that stage.

..............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on March 17, 2016, 04:58:05 AM
Hi oztules, I would like to have posted on this forum as the folk are a bit more friendlier and good at putting up with odd balls like me.

However, posting here is very difficult and I have very limited functions. Pics are limited to one at a time and below 180k, or else I am kicked out by the proxy server I am using, as France has blocked access to this Forum.

So posting on Fieldlines.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 17, 2016, 06:28:35 PM
this is a few snaps of the current board I am running... for those interested.
[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=3]

It is stupid simple.... but it works as well as anything I have seen thus far.... commercial or otherwise

.......oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 17, 2016, 06:32:29 PM
Can't seem to get this right.....


[attachimg=1]


............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on March 17, 2016, 07:14:47 PM
All that's required for completeness is a PCB layout for the output board and roll your own cheap reliable inverters pretty much can be made at reasonable power levels and cost (especially if you salvage the transformers ,heat sinks and caps from  a donor old grid tie) :)
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 17, 2016, 07:36:19 PM
Here is a link to Clockmans nude boards as they currently look.
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,148953.msg1036930.html#msg1036930

It looks like he is about to do the hard work for the design of the new boards.

He is a perfectionist, so will do a very good job from what I have seen of his work

..........oztules

edit remember on the 002 board to get rid of the 393 and short pins seven and eight, and jump pin 1 over to pin four.... or the toroid will destroy your work.... or disable the current limit altogether  and use some other system ( too hard when it is there already... but..)
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on March 17, 2016, 09:41:29 PM
Wow looks like Clockman is on to it all right  :); I hope he will be able to post the final result on this forum as well. RF
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on March 18, 2016, 04:52:50 AM
Hi RFburns,

Yes would love to have posted here, but The French blocking access is a real pain.

I will post the finished Masks here with a scale mm measurement on the drawing when I am out of France. I am CAD man so bare with me.

"He is a perfectionist," crikey 'oztules' steady on there, I just want a good, cost effective, robust and simple Inverter, the OzInverter does it for me.
Besides, the Mrs is always moaning that I over engineer, for those 'Just in Case' moments.


Posting Pics is hard here, but I will post about components (small res) and what is a suitable readily available and cost effective. At present I have some capacitors that I have not worked with before so I am unsure. But will start another topic here for help.

Thanks.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Phred on March 18, 2016, 05:00:33 AM
I will post about components (small res) and what is a suitable readily available and cost effective. At present I have some capacitors that I have not worked with before so I am unsure. But will start another topic here for help.

Thanks.
On Ali Barba or Ebay u can cheaply buy a components test So finding what the value is easy & quick
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 18, 2016, 08:08:15 PM
Phred,
My nikkon has collapsed, so tried the elcheapo tablet camera

Here is wave form under 3kw load

[attachimg=1]

here is the watt reading at the time ( hot water is on, and shed house stuff )

[attachimg=2]

Here is the test welder... it's big... and too heavy to lift one end.

[attachimg=3]

Interestingly, went inside and filled the 3kw kettle, and half way through boiling it, .. about 2mins I guess,... the power went off..

At last a fault.... went outside.... the 68amp o/load had given up,... reset... all well again.
So at over 6kw with a power interruption, still no failure... starting to really like this thing.


.................oztules
.....
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on March 19, 2016, 06:46:19 AM
Hi oztules,

Question please....

On the New OzControl Board with the 8010 chip, what is that small transformer, and any details where I might purchase replacements.

I see it takes one of the OzToroid secondary's through its little primary, so that has to be reasonable thickness or its a weak link?
The other little winding goes to the chip?  does it need conditioning?.

I am asking these silly questions as when my Ozinverter is in back feed mode from the AC Coupling GTI's, and charging the batteries, can the 8010 cope with voltage increase okay ? ie, when the batteries are full and the 230vac voltage rises slightly?

Photo......The transformer, and another of those mystery, well mystery to me, muddy brown/red capacitor thingy's.

Thanks
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 19, 2016, 07:29:43 AM
Muddy red thing is 4uf capacitor for shaping the sine wave.
The transformer is just a current transformer from an old PJ board.

You can replicate this board if you wish for testing purposes, but there will be changes for the newer board when I get it done.

Just about any current transformer will do but the primary of 1 or 2 turns needs to be able to handle 30 amps or so...... or a better way will be to use a torroid current transformer, and they should be available on ebay for very modest amounts... like this kind of thing:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DL-CT08CL5-20A-10mA-2000-1-0-120A-Micro-Current-Transformer-HYM-/281440234858?hash=item4187252d6a:g:60oAAOSwEK9UEXV-

This will be a way to go, but will have to check the output voltage for the input current... I'm not there yet to make a recommendation, or we can wind our own.

At this stage, the new one is looking like this... but it is waiting for parts to come for the adaptor board, and thats just a guess to the size of the 32pin converter board for the 8010.
[attachimg=1]

..........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on March 20, 2016, 04:19:16 PM
Thanks about the 4uf cap. Any idea what type it is?.

I recall that capacitors come in all different materials, paper & foil types, Can's, polyester, Mylar, tantalum, ceramic, etc etc.

I have a good capacitance meter, but its the material and type that baffles me.

Thanks about that transformer, and yes 30amp sounds sensible. Yes, winding are own little job might satisfy that 30amp through it.
I understand ....thanks for the Link.

That New 'OzControl' board is looking good.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 20, 2016, 08:03:39 PM
Probably metalized film capacitor... or any non polarized HV capacitor would do it I guess.
Metal film are really only conductors spaced by  insulaton, so are non polarized... unlike say electrolytic types or other chemical systems.

................oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Phred on March 21, 2016, 05:08:37 AM
Muddy red thing is 4uf capacitor for shaping the sine wave.
The transformer is just a current transformer from an old PJ board.

You can replicate this board if you wish for testing purposes, but there will be changes for the newer board when I get it done.

Just about any current transformer will do but the primary of 1 or 2 turns needs to be able to handle 30 amps or so...... or a better way will be to use a torroid current transformer, and they should be available on ebay for very modest amounts... like this kind of thing:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DL-CT08CL5-20A-10mA-2000-1-0-120A-Micro-Current-Transformer-HYM-/281440234858?hash=item4187252d6a:g:60oAAOSwEK9UEXV-

This will be a way to go, but will have to check the output voltage for the input current... I'm not there yet to make a recommendation, or we can wind our own.

At this stage, the new one is looking like this... but it is waiting for parts to come for the adaptor board, and thats just a guess to the size of the 32pin converter board for the 8010.
(Attachment Link)

..........oztules
I would be niece to have dimensions on the artwork, bill of materials and last of a road map 
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 21, 2016, 05:51:40 AM
Phred,
Do not action this artwork, it is untested, and contains errors I assure you.

I have etched the thing and noticed a few alterations I want to do, and one glaring mistake in the 2110 power lines..... and we/I still have no idea as to the dimensions of the 32 pin board width. There are also some different converter boards to fit the 8010 chip coming that are not dip32 style, and they may give a better, less inductive pathway... so hold on for a bit to avoid disappointment..... I will be disappointed enough for both of us if it does not work properly.

The original one I posted does work  ( and I don't think I have made any real alterations to it... will look tomorrow), and is the current test bed, and if the new one works that well I will be ecstatic.... and it should... maybe.

It will not have the cross conduction protection transistors in stage one, as I don't think they need to be there...... and I have been wrong before too... may incorporate them if necessary.

There will not be a mud map, as I don't have one, I design on the PCB program with a few scribbles next to the computer that describe bits of it ( mainly pin out stuff), but I am not an EE so don't operate like one... I'm just a run of the mill scumbag experimenter.... having way too much fun too i might say.

When the new one works as planned, a very full explanation and drawings will be made available, as it will be ( I think) the first very simple, high powered pure sine wave inverter, that can handle all loads as easily and effectively as $8000 units can... and be freely available on the net, and so simple, that anyone with only average skill will be able to emulate simply and easily... well thats the plan anyway.

It is single sided deliberately so it is simple to make, and you will notice that most of the resistors are actually 0 ohms pieces of wire... there is not much on there.

You are more than welcome to reverse engineer it and provide the world with a mud map if you so choose.

Clockman, I have run the tests using the torroid current transformers of the type I alluded to, they work perfectly well instead of the CT shown in the pics.

.............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on March 21, 2016, 09:34:59 AM
Thanks oztules regards those Caps.

Yes a couple of those little toroid's on there way here.

Good thinking!

Just the simple secondary to the chip, gets rid of that weak Link.



Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Phred on March 21, 2016, 04:24:56 PM
Phred,

You are more than welcome to reverse engineer it and provide the world with a mud map if you so choose.


.............oztules
not interested in reinventing the wheel! Are u abandoning 002 board for a HB? Can u please post scale details of the earlier version of pcb using an 002? I will be shortly expect my one to arrive. A circuit and a BM would be good.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 21, 2016, 04:53:54 PM
The scaling is not of interest... the pin spacing is paramount... so resize in what ever program you use, until the 17 pin 002 board fits the pin holes perfectly ( 1.6" for 17 pins).. thats all that counts on that board. Take the BM from the posted parts overlay and pics, and the circuit is not in existence unless you make it so.

It is not abandoned at the present, as it works perfectly, but my heart is set on a home brew from scratch..... until then I'm beholdent to another manufacturer.
I would like to be only beholdent to chip manufacturers, as they do them by the million and billion, and so will be available well into the future.... sadly it will be weeks until that is realised due to Australian parts not being available... this country has turned into a manufacturing graveyard....... were not competent to make a paper clip anymore.


................oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 21, 2016, 06:31:08 PM
Here is the new prototype board...... the underside shows the snafu and new connection.
Problem is I have no 2110 or converter boards or 22pf caps at the moment, so testing is indeterminate at this point.... dammit.
[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

I have no the slightest idea how the inductances and resistances will work so far from the chip. It may be that I need to place the decoupling circuit and the crystal circuit on the converter board.... we'll see...... Ross???

...............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frwainscott on March 21, 2016, 10:45:02 PM
Check this out...
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 22, 2016, 12:38:38 AM
Thats a 002 used in a high frequency inverter....not something I would bother to emulate..... LF inverters are streets ahead for off grid applications. There is no decent surge in that topology I'm afraid, and it is also much more picky in it's loads.

................oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on March 22, 2016, 04:48:53 AM
That New OzControl Board is looking good.

10 way pin for the Power Board, good.

 Sensing Toroid incorporated, good. That means the big 10mm/2 AC cables are no longer on the board, that's real good.

Might have to come here some how, even if I have internet connection problems. Looks like I am stepping on the so called patronizing professional toes, and might be thrown out of 'Fieldlines' forum.

Why can't folk help, not hinder.
 

 
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: rossw on March 22, 2016, 05:36:24 AM
professional toes

Ain't been "professional toes" in the chain-of-command @ foolslies for a very long time.

Quote
Why can't folk help, not hinder.

Some places they do. Like here. Over there, it's the "tall poppy syndrome" on steroids.
And if you happen to have an opinion different to whoever's pulling the strings that day, you better not express it, or there WILL be tears before bedtime.

Ahh, the stories some of us ex-mods and ex-admins of that place could tell you... but we don't dwell on the past!
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frwainscott on March 22, 2016, 12:21:19 PM
well.... I was thinking that it gave me some insight into how the egs002 board was functioning.... But never mind... your already a mile ahead of me.  :)
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 22, 2016, 04:39:02 PM
The circuit you alluded to is a HF complete circuit.

If you look at it you will see a 12v to 320v step up push pull converter to do the voltage lifting, and then they use the 002 to do the 50hz sine wave.
The problem with these, is that all your energy storage is in the hv capacitors @ 320v... so if you have a surge requirement that can't be met from that tiny energy storage, you sag.

The LF uses the battery as the energy storage, so basically unlimited surge, for as long as the tranny and fets can stand it.

It also suffers form driving highly capacitive loads, and will probably blow the fets in that case, as they see the caps as a very low impedance.

It is always useful to see how things work, as the more you learn, the more you can do.


Clockman, the protagonist has self immolated, and the admins have given you their blessings.  The politics of envy have been played out.


..............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: lighthunter on March 23, 2016, 01:52:39 AM
Hi guys, great work on evaluating this inverter option. I ordered 3, just to play, no plans yet but was curious if the oscillator connections on the 8010 could be paralleled between multiple eg002 boards with one crystal feeding all producing synchronized output waveforms? If that answer is yes, could the same be done to parallel two pj inverters ...kind of like 2 grid ties working together of course voltage feedback would have to be tuned so they shared loads at (=) or desired ratio.

Quote
 . "I was thinking that it gave me some insight into how the egs002 board was functioning. "

Heres another schematic of similar setup that.... might? Be closer to example you are looking for. Not sure on attachment/posting link dos and donts. Please yell if i need to remove.

 http://www.lz2gl.com/power-inverter-3kw/

Again, am very thankful for all the thoughts and test runs!

Lighthunter
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on March 23, 2016, 05:01:00 PM
Thanks Oz, yes the world is full of strange folk........

Sorry, the concept of me walking behind a man with a red flag, "the protagonist", and doing what he tells me to do, especially without hard proof  .........  nope, the World moves constantly forwards..........

Okay......Still on the New Power Board, tracks masks finished, quadruple checked. But will check again.

Doing the mask for the component outlines, values & numbering and heatsink position etc. I will do this mask in a light colour so you can scan from, nothing to see if I do it in white......

I will put the resistor values on each, it helps with assembly I think. Also I will tin all the copper as might need to do some extra stuff.
 Track pads are a size that gives a good solder joint both sides, but not to big or to close to cause problems.

Nothing worse than drilling a board and finding the pads coming away, because the pad is small and the adhesion is weak. The drill always pushes if blunt, and tears if too sharp. Copper/ brass... reduce the rake angle on the cutting faces of the drill.

The board is now finished at 282mm long.

Heat sinks for this board.
 http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/160-80-26-9MM-high-quality-aluminum-heat-board-electronic-radiator/1522105_32482586868.html

These seem a reasonable price, and several folk stock these at this size. You will need 4off, 2 will need joining end to end for a single 266mm long. Each of the 4 is 160mm long, 80mm high, and 26mm wide, so cut a bit off the 6mm thick excess and use that, only needs a 20mm strip and 4 small bolts/screws drilled and tapped.

 The mounting bit for the FET's is 6mm thick, but the fins are more than PJ, but thinner, so the mounting holes on the New Power Board will probably need moving closer to the thicker bit, but I will asses when I get them here and alter the Board accordingly.

I note MaryB mentioning that more copper can alter Inductance, so I have kept track ways etc, pretty much the width of the original within reason, although some PJ's are scary.

That big muddy red cap in the middle is ordered at 4.7uf, although on the original it was 1uf.

Give me a few days yet, (I have other jobs on now the weather is getting better, ha ha), and I will post on Fieldines, I can achieve 512k image size there.
Unless...... some Mod here can give me an email address, then they can have the 4off masks, each at 600dpi 2meg, Jpg or PDF, and post them for us on this site.?

 
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frackers on March 23, 2016, 07:03:03 PM
As well as still waiting for the egs002 boards to arrive I've now ordered some IR2110 chips having discovered that the $3 stm32f103 dev boards I have been playing with the last few months not only have complimentary outputs from the PWM channels but have programmable dead-time from 125ns to 125us. Basically all the hard work is done in the hardware.

Having brushed up on my sine wave synthesis its just a matter of scaling the maximum on time to the voltage feedback and using the current feedback to decide when to shut down!!

Does anyone know the best algorithm(s) for soft start and stop so as to avoid spikes with a toroid output device? When I get the egs002 board I'll knock up a test jig with a 15V 20VA transformer backwards to I can run everything from my bench PSU and get a logic analyser on the 4 pwm outputs from the eg8010.

The way I see it, the worst that can happen if the CPU is doing extra stuff (e.g. updating a display) is that the response times to transients could be compromised. Having said that, with a 72MHz clock and DMA capable SPI and I2C, I'm sure I can squeeze all sorts of things into 64k of code space ;)

And of course it will get put up on github under a GPL license like most of my stuff https://github.com/g8ecj (https://github.com/g8ecj)

Guess I've got too many projects on the go again and the walnut harvest is about to start!!

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 24, 2016, 03:16:13 AM
The test board as shown is the one i am using, but forgot to put in 2 changes to it

I still advise NOT to use this pattern, as it is very sloppy in track clearances and placement is difficult compared to the real estate it uses.. but some won't be told, so here are blow ups of the board as it was.. but with two changes.

When I first tested it, I blew up the voltage regulators... as mentioned somewhere back there.. it was because the zener went to the wrong track by 2mm. Changed that, and the voltage feedback didn't work because of no ground link.... fixed both in a few minutes, and it has since been running the house till now... more than a week I think... works flawlessly for a botch board.

It was not until I took it apart that I realised the 2 changes I forgot about in the excitement.... as I had not touched it for all that time.

So here are the blow ups of the changed board.... no other improvements... just the two changes... I would prefer you not to use this until we get a nicer more robust version ( physically), but some folks can't wait apparently.

[attachimg=1]


[attachimg=2]


[attachimg=3]


[attachimg=4]

It really is a crap board on reflection, but it works so well... I havent though about it any further.
I will tidy it up and make it easier to build, it is cramped and silly at the moment.

.................oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 24, 2016, 04:42:10 PM
Like the heat sinks.

 Mary is correct, but at these frequencies, I have found no difference with ribbon length and performance... which tells me that we need to strengthen the tracks, rather than be frightened... remember the 15kw boards are twice as long as the 8kw boards, so tracks are much longer and different... still work fine... so get the engineering right, and I suspect the differences will not matter.

The reason I get things done, is I don't procrastinate about things I don't understand..... I do it......... then see what happens, and learn what works from there.... modeling some stuff is near impossible, but suck and see works every time... you will get results, and they will tell you which direction to head in.

The idiot monetary policy in the world today done by genius modelers, give you some idea how wrong models can be. .... facts don't lie.

If your screen printing, then populating the board is much easier if you label the bits.

"That big muddy red cap in the middle is ordered at 4.7uf, although on the original it was 1uf."..... will have to check mine, but memory says 4u7... now I'm worried..... My 002 boards are running 2x2uf as well.


...............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 24, 2016, 04:54:21 PM
Frackers.
"Does anyone know the best algorithm(s) for soft start and stop so as to avoid spikes with a toroid output device? When I get the egs002 board I'll knock up a test jig with a 15V 20VA transformer backwards to I can run everything from my bench PSU and get a logic analyser on the 4 pwm outputs from the eg8010."

When you get the 002 in your hot little hands, the scope will give you the answer on how to do it , and how not to do it.

The start up is a simple3 second increase in the amplitude, ie the fundamental is held constant 50hz square wave, and the spwm is increased from zero to the final pulse width for the load at turn on at the voltage we need.

So by cutting out the 393, we get smooth 3 second start, and instant stop with no trialing pulses... and all is well now.

Provided you keep the max amplitude within a reasonable range, it is next to impossible to kill the thing  from shorts or current o/l if you have the fets to cover it.... and 6 x 4110 seems to do that.

If you run the pj or the 002 without feedback, it kills nothing... so does not go over the top when an under voltage is recieved by the ac feedback.... but limits itself and stops after a second or two... it runs without current feedback very well too, but short may push it too far... not tested yet... been having too much fun with it working good... will destry it for real if I can next week... but reasonably confidant the AC short will be survived just fine.

The cap omn the AC feedback tells me you will have plenty of time to do house keeping, and the 4uf on the CT feedback tells me the same thing... just keep it short.

I would like to see you do just a chip that does the spwm, and leave the fancy stuff to add on components, so that the very best performance is assured.... of course that will not be a challenge for you, so you will do both, but I would have my hands full just with the spwm, simple jump table that it is.

The next step would be varying the frequency as the load increased, ie insert more table values as the load came on, to keep the waveform cleaner.
I would not bother unless I had some valid reason to do it... cant think of any other than bragging rights from a practical perspective.

Will follow this carefully Frackers.



.......oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 24, 2016, 05:02:23 PM
Lighthunter,

That circuit is a better version of what I am doing.

I say better as the driver is the difference, but seems not to be warranted for run of the mill use.
Finally measured the idle power at 30 watts for this one, so losses are very small, and I can't justify the extra complexity for no material gain.

Folks are more likely to do my style of board as there are hardly any real parts, has low idle power, and massive output power..... what more can you ask form a simple through hole board with a dozen or more parts.


...............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 25, 2016, 05:22:38 AM
The weakness in this version of experimental board is the rudimentary power supply. The 7805 is prone to failure in further bench testing.... and that takes the chip out.
It didn't happen in the first board as I must have been lucky at turn on. In the pj board, the caps must have slowed the inrush currents enough to protect it, but a second one on the bench into a small transformer with little filtering failed a few times and took a few boards with it.... so I have run out of boards for the time being, and won't risk the one on the big transformer, so bench testing will stop until new victims arrive, and a new board with better power supplies and other changes are done.

I'll keep the big one running until they arrive, just to continue the power testing.. but it looks strong once up and running so there is much hope.

in short don't do that board unless you better the power supply.

The next board will have plug in chips so I can be more gruesome in the testing of it.


................oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frwainscott on March 25, 2016, 10:22:56 AM
Oz, Speaking of few parts, in the early 70s popular electronics came out with an article on building your own 120 volt inverter. it used a 120 to 24 ct ei xfmr which was very easy to come by. and the drivers were two 3055 darlington transistors the oscilator for the 60 hz was an ne555 ic. I bought the parts and built one, and used it for years to run my electric razor in my car on the way to work. It would'nt power much But it was very stable surprisingly. So, much can be done with little. Back then an inverter was beyond most peoples means. Why not use a few parts and build an integrated 12 and 5 volt power supply that can't be killed?

 Heres To Later Days and Better Lays....  Frank
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on March 25, 2016, 07:25:40 PM
Some of the boards use a different driver chip (mine have 2110 and 2113 drivers on two different boards) same chip as far as pin outs but different ratings. I am not at all suggesting that this is/will cause any problems and only wish this to be noted in case someone gets a board and thinks that they may have got the incorrect version.

 A few places have these boards very cheap  :) ($7.85 free shipping) ;also if ordering these boards they are supplied default with under voltage protection but you may ask for other options depending on the seller (some do not offer this and the board is supplied with default).

I am thinking stiffening up with a couple of 100uF caps (overkill) maybe beneficial to both the 12v and 5v supplies and a limiting resistor on the input so they dont see the spike at turn on. Any way looks like its working great.RF
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frackers on March 25, 2016, 08:23:09 PM
also if ordering these boards they are supplied default with under voltage protection but you may ask for other options depending on the seller (some do not offer this and the board is supplied with default).

I am thinking stiffening up with a couple of 100uF caps (overkill) maybe beneficial to both the 12v and 5v supplies and a limiting resistor on the input so they dont see the spike at turn on. Any way looks like its working great.RF

Looking at all the published circuits for the eg8010, they all seem to monitor primary current and secondary voltage so no way of shutting down on a flat battery. Is this really the case or am I missing something? I would prefer to measure current and voltage on both sides of the power transformer...

I've been thinking about the specs for the bootstrap capacitor between Vs and Vb on the IR2011 and I reckon there is the potential for a lot of current there since it will be supplying the current to charge the FET gate capacitance. Any thoughts on a low ESR type here? Also steering diodes on the FET gates to improve turnoff - can't think that 1N4148 are going to help much - maybe something more like a fast 1A schottsky (e.g. 1N5819) to keep the voltage drop down.


Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 25, 2016, 09:33:45 PM
Frackers
Schottky is good... when I get some will try it.
I relented, and rebuilt a 002 out of three dead ones... found the fault that caused all the heart ache... nothing like hair line cracks to cause chaos in this type of thing

I also put 120r and 100uf in the voltage line, and that stopped the voltage reg dying prematurely.... and then used 2 tip35c for the voltage reg instead of the 7805 and 12.

So the second board is now fully functional, but  will terrorize it some more, then redraw a much better board without such thin tracks.. less chance of hairline cracks for a start.

When I do the 8010 board I will make the 20khz on the low sides only, and 50hz on the high side.... that should make the switching much easier.... these ones use high side and low side 20khz.

Frackers I have no use for shut down, so have not considered it.
The current control I use is not cycle by cycle,  I monitor secondary current only, as I want big surge.... have not been able to stop it thus far.... the way I like it. The voltage sense is filtered as well, to stop any too rapid responses it may decide on... there's 4u7 on each sense to temper any behavior.... all secondary.

If it didn't work so damn well I would go with my pwm tripple supply, and that would solve everything..... but I'm not convinced it needs solving....

It is working stupidly well... still a bit amazed....


...............oztules





Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 25, 2016, 10:17:20 PM
some pics of the board as it is now.

This is the a4 paper with patten after spray with crc.

[attachimg=1]

and offending board

[attachimg=2]

Pic of the wavform

[attachimg=3]

You can see the tip35's for the voltage reg and resistor tacked on.

[attachimg=4]

..............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frwainscott on March 27, 2016, 10:29:21 AM
Somehow I missed my main point.... Oz... YOU have done an amazing feat going through all of the extra BS that is embedded in their circuitry and cutting it down to the very essentials.... Truly amazing!

 For all the time and parts you have put into this project. Is there somewhere I can donate to the cause? If so.... please let me know.

 Thanks ... Frank
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 27, 2016, 04:08:19 PM
No Frank... just use what you can of it.

.............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 27, 2016, 04:28:00 PM
Here is the new 8010 board as it currently is... still waiting for the adapter boards for the 8010 to dip to arrive, so the dimensions of the 8010 complex are probably wrong, but you can see the way I am going with it.... simple.

Added more copper everywhere..... and just need the parts now.

[attachimg=1]

The latest 002 board is of similar ilk.. ie tracks enlarged and minor changes to the circuitry... will post that later.

...............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 27, 2016, 06:18:51 PM
Here is latest 002 not built yet so beware... and check for yourself first.

[attachimg=1]

It is truly ridiculous that that simple circuit is running the house for the last week or so... up to and over 7kw surges, and 2-3kw constant for hours on end..

Still blows me away...



....oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frwainscott on March 28, 2016, 12:09:47 AM
Do the Power Jack boards all have a problem with the 5 volt supply being weak or is it just the egs002 setup? I dont think I read where any failures were due to the 5 Volt circuitry. But I tend to wake up in a new world quite often.

 Thanks...  Frank
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 28, 2016, 02:23:58 AM
Not in the powerjack, never seen them go.

The way I was trying to use it allowed spurious spikes at connection .... coming through the tip35 drop down tranny. This is mitigated with the resistor and cap, but i changed the whole front end to take the strain off the tip from driving both 5 and 12v lines through the 7805 .

.... john
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 28, 2016, 03:31:29 AM
OK.... built 2 of these this after noon....both work perfectly.
Decent track widths and no faults to report.

[attachimg=1]

Who would believe you can build a perfectly good pure sine inverter in an afternoon.... much less two

It was all worth it... now for stage two..... no 002 board, just the 8010.... interesting....

As requested, this is what fell out of the pcb program... may help
Bill of Materials

"","SPADE","4","A91 A92 A93 A94"
"0r","AXIAL0.3","3","A60 A62 A63"
"0r","AXIAL0.4","2","A48 A49"
"100uf 100v","RB.2/.4","1","A6"
"104","C2","1","A51"
"10PIN","10PIN","1","A73"
"10PIN","17PINA","1","A88"
"10k","AXIAL0.3","2","A5 A72"
"10k","AXIAL0.4","1","A10"
"10k","POT","1","A1"
"120r","5WRESIST","1","A13"
"13v","D2","1","A65"
"1k","AXIAL0.3","1","A55"
"2k","POT","1","A54"
"2k2","AXIAL0.3","1","A50"
"2uf 400vac","AXIAL1.0","2","A11 A12"
"35c","TO220V","1","A66"
"4u7","2PINCAP","3","A3 A14 A15"
"4u7","C2","1","A53"
"50k","AXIAL0.3","4","A82 A83 A84 A85"
"5v6","DIODE0.4","1","A4"
"fr107","D2","8","A56 A57 A58 A59 A61 A78 A79 A80"
"npn","TO92","1","A2"
"tip35c","TO220V","1","A68"

Will attach pdf of tracks and component o/lay soon.

Looks like anyone can build a pure sine inverter as big as they wish for nuts...



.........oztules

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 28, 2016, 04:12:14 AM
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 28, 2016, 04:27:20 AM
And finally some afternoon pictures.

First the paper with the oil on it
[attachimg=1]

Then the pattern on the copper.. still a bit wet...

[attachimg=2]

The top of twin boards

[attachimg=3]

and the rear of the thing.

[attachimg=4]

Hope that helps someone.

...............oztules



Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on March 29, 2016, 01:04:47 AM
Great work Oz  :); I have linked to this page on another forum to spread the word. How are the output boards from Clockman going? and will they be posted here when finised?
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on March 29, 2016, 04:19:24 AM
Getting there...........

Its getting my files converted to RS-274X gerber format. It seems folk would like ready made cost effective Boards.

My PDF output is good, and to real size, and all masks are done and can print out nicely. But getting the correct File format for the PCB manufactures is a nightmare. Just trying to keep the cost down.

File types my CAD can output.......
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on March 29, 2016, 05:03:48 AM
Hey guys

Great work on the EGS002 driver board everyone! I had ordered a few and designed a test board to see how it would work a couple of years ago but ran out of time and motivation very quickly.

This thread and all of the hard work you guys have done has re inspired me to look into it again this long weekend. It turns out my board worked the whole time I just had to adjust the voltage regulation and solder everything properly :)

Here's a photo showing it in action. Don't mind the messy desk and crappy test board. When I designed it I had no experience with electronics.
The toroidal is just a salvaged 300VA rewound with 2 x 2.5mm domestic wiring.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on March 29, 2016, 05:29:03 AM
Since I was inspired this long weekend and had a few hours to kill I started working on a proper power board so I can put one of these things to use.

The goal is to make myself a 3000W 12V unit. Yes I know 12V is a waste of time but it suits my applications since I'm using second hand batteries and keeping them in balance is too hard in higher voltage systems. I'm not running the house off it but reliability is big on my list.

I want to keep the size down too as I want to fit it into a 3 RU rack mount case.

Photos below are my progress so far. I like using all SMD components except for caps of course. Its way harder to get the heat away like this but I've made similar boards before and with the right thermal VIA's and mounted to a heatsink the heat should be manageable fingers crossed  ???

There is still some things to add and decisions to make. I was thinking of adding an arduino in to manage the cooling, over current, low voltage cut off and also I need to add an off switch.

I just get the PCB's made in china. It's trouble and stress free that way and they usually come in a week to AUS.

Thanks for looking. Should be a fun project!
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on March 29, 2016, 06:15:58 AM
Nice work Antman; look forward to seeing it finished. RF

Clockman nice to hear the progress there, BIG THUMBS UP ; I thought you maybe able to import your .dxf's into a PCB programme to give the Gerber's ?(not that I have ever done that myself). RF
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 29, 2016, 04:37:08 PM
Very nice Antman.

@48v you would get your 3kw with that layout... with 12v.... not easy with 300 amps to cover..... if the copper was 2mm thick you would do it.
Nice layout too.

The cooling and under voltage is best done third party I think, current by the 002 is fine ( with some mods).

Order a few spare boards... i think you may be in need of them. If your board can carry 80amps or more cont.... I suspect there will be some interest.

Glad we pricked your imagination, that  what it is about.


Wish I could still see the surface components... never mind manipulating them....... envy....

..........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on March 29, 2016, 07:51:32 PM
Thanks RF and OZ

Yep the current becomes an issue at such low voltages. The two long exposed copper sections on the outside are the outputs to the transformer primary. I will probably solder 12 x 12 mm brass bar onto it and tap in a M8 bolt so the transformer leads can be lugged onto it.

The power input will probably done in a similar way. This is the only part I'm not happy with at the moment. It'll handle 150 amps easily but 300 will be pushing it. I may have to spread the input over a few smaller cables instead of 1 large one. The caps will probably have to be enlarged too.

Ill probably add a spot for a Buck converter module and jumpers so that the board can work with 24 and 48V too. That way somebody else can get some use out of the board it it's successful. Ill be ordering 5 or 10 boards anyway. I was considering scrapping the EGS002 board and just putting everything onto my board but I honestly cant be bothered.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 29, 2016, 11:47:09 PM
"I was considering scrapping the EGS002 board and just putting everything onto my board but I honestly cant be bothered."

When the 2110's turn up it will be tested fully, but the wave forms at the inputs to the 2110 are looking very tidy at the moment..... that could all change when they are driving the 2110 though... hopefully they turn up soon..

[attachimg=1]


.................oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on March 30, 2016, 12:03:31 AM
Excellent job mate! Cant wait to see the results.

I might be able to see the surface mount components but ill never have the patience you have designing everything with through hole.

If I get a couple of spare hours tonight I might throw the Arduino into the design. I'm also going to put a current amplifier in there as well and link it to an external 300A shunt. With the arduino ill be able to set any current limit and will limit power dissipation on the shunt too.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on March 30, 2016, 02:17:28 AM
I think it will drive o.k but under load thats the acid test  ;) ! .If its close to the output board and its under heavy load and still working; job done (extra lead length of discrete's is the only real problem I can see as we know the fundemental design is sound). RF
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 30, 2016, 03:29:20 AM
Yes RF, the extra lead length and groundplane issues is what concerns me.... but I could spend days trying to calculate it all.... and in the end, the laws of the universe will prevail... so suck it and see will be the determinate factor.
I am hopeful, as virtually all the 12mhz stuff is in the chip and out to the crystal, the rest is only 20khz or so, and the lead lengths are fairly modest for this frequency. ( is that 1500 meters?... just over the top of the audio range...)
Time will tell, but I remain hopeful.

The ribbon length seems to make no noticeable difference as testing has proved... now the next step.

Antmans version would lend itself to this better I think, but I'm not sure the difference will be noticeable. Fet heat will tell it all in the end.

But , gee if it works as planned, then what a simple solution to what I thought was a complex problem...... then  a pic chip... and we are free.


........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on March 30, 2016, 08:47:38 AM
I am pretty sure there wont be any major suprises and if there are any issues I am sure a small rejig of the layout would correct anything . For sure this is a much better try it than we will see; the maths is just to much. RF
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on March 30, 2016, 10:21:50 AM
Just my schottky diodes now.......

Best get busy!
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frwainscott on March 30, 2016, 08:55:46 PM
It would be nice if there was a parts list for 12v,24v,36v,and 48v so people would be able to scale up as they can without breaking the bank. I know 12 volts is almost ridiculous due to the high amperage but a 12 volt/2kw unit could be the difference between some people getting to delve into such a project or not being able to. Whether it being for their home or experimenting.....

Frank.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on March 31, 2016, 04:52:30 AM
I've done a bit of extra work on the board.

I've decided to spread the input power over 3 x 10mm squared cables similar to how the PJ boards distribute their negative. I've got heaps of these screw terminals that you can see in the center of the board which are a nice solid connection. The connection points are no more than 15mm away from the mosfets at any point so with 2 oz copper on the PCB voltage drop should not be an issue.

Current will still be sensed by an external shunt and amplified by a INA271 high side sensor. Its pricey but very accurate and can handle over 70V. This will be monitored by the arduino and or the EGS002 via a selectable jumper. This way I can get the arduino to start the fan if the power level goes past a certain point.

Fan is controlled from the arduino and can be PWM'd to vary the speed depending on heat or load.

Thermocouple is monitored from the arduino

Input voltage is monitored from the arduino for low/ high voltage shut down

DC to DC buck converter is included for 24, 36 & 48 volt use. A shorting jumper is used for 12V instead of the buck converter.

Pins for attaching an on/ off switch which simply disconnects the control voltage.

I added pins for a LCD from the arduino in case I want to go overboard. Its a shame the EGS002 board  doesn't have a serial connection breakout to read and set all of the parameters. I may have to remove the EGS002 board all together and place everything on my board ;)

Now the hard part is to connect all of the pins up and tidy up the layout when time permits.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frackers on March 31, 2016, 05:03:03 AM
My boards have arrived - I ordered the LCD to go with them and it is tiny!! 28x12mm - a total waste of money!

Hunting through the junk box I came across  a 1700VA UPS but checking the number of windings on its transformer I think I'll stick to the original plan of a simple 15v transformer backwards for the test jig!!

I might even get my logic analyser on it over the weekend.

I'm also working on 20KHz low side, 50Hz high side software for an Arduino Nano clone. Looks pretty straight forward, just got to work out how to get the loop gain right for the voltage feedback to keep the output stable. Unfortunately, my study of Smith charts and stability criteria and such like in closed loop systems was over 40 years ago and that was all analog anyway  :-\
I can see some of the advantages of this approach - less current required from the charge pump driving the FET gates on the high side and reduced losses due to less switching but is that it (or am I missing something). It seems to avoid the dead-time issues of fast switching!

The all singing and dancing 'from scratch' controller will use an stm32f103 or stm32f303 and will monitor both input and output voltage and current but will probably be 20KHz both high and low side as the dead-time is handled in the hardware of the micro itself. Or is might be 50/20k as I learn more about inverters.

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frackers on March 31, 2016, 05:09:30 AM
DC to DC buck converter is included for 24, 36 & 48 volt use. A shorting jumper is used for 12V instead of the buck converter.

I hope the buck converter isn't like one of these http://www.aliexpress.com/item/10pcs-lot-Power-Converter-Step-Down-Module-LM2596-LM2596S-DC-DC-1-5V-35V-adjustable-step/1967756079.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/10pcs-lot-Power-Converter-Step-Down-Module-LM2596-LM2596S-DC-DC-1-5V-35V-adjustable-step/1967756079.html) because they are only rated to a maximum 45v input :(
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on March 31, 2016, 05:21:04 AM
Hey Frackers

It'd me more like this. http://www.aliexpress.com/item/48v-Step-down-Module-DC-DC-4-5-60v-LM2596HV-Adjustable-Regulator-Module/32266096532.html?spm=2114.30010308.3.1.DVzWIH&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_9,searchweb201602_5_10036_10035_301_10034_507_10032_10020_10017_10005_10006_10021_10022_401_10018_10019,searchweb201603_9&btsid=283f427b-af11-44e4-8325-00af349b11b8

It's rated up to 60V but to be honest I wouldn't trust it to be too reliable. On a 48 volt system you would be pushing the limits and the Chinese aren't known for leaving much headroom ;)

This board is more of a test board for me. If it was a final solution I would include my own high voltage buck converter circuit in there but my component list is already growing larger then I'd like. Using this i'll be able to test control circuit current consumption too since it is way too hard to work out now.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 31, 2016, 06:24:35 AM
The 2110's turned up and I plugged them in......


Well tonight's news is that the unit at the top of the page works... not sure yet how well, as I only took it up to 2kw resistive element, and then decided to be brave and start the compressor next to me.... all worked and not a dead fet in sight.... decided to go to bed with success in the mind.....bit wimpy I suppose.

Tomorrow I will get a bit more game and push it to 6kw... it would have seen peaks near there starting the compressor I would imagine.

Now the good news..... the fet banks stayed dead cold after 15 mins at 800 watts for the first test..... the current control works smoothly, the temp control works smoothly, the voltage was incredibly stable ... even switching on the compressor... the scope did not see it correct at all..... nifty indeed.

Now the odd news.... this chip has excellent voltage control, but unlike the 002 boards, it has no idea at all of under AC voltage cut out...... no idea why.
The wave form is very good for the top 3/4  ( and bottom) of the wave.... but there is some wobble at cross over.... may have to vary the dead time a bit... but apart from that, seems very solid... tomorrow will tell as I dump all kinds of loads on it.. then finally, the big welder.....we'll see.

So a dead simple unit is very much possible.

Frackers...... a nano?... I would not have guessed it could do it... but if anyone can, I suspect you can.

Antman, I am hoping this success will goad you into ditching the 002 and do a better job of what I have done... this is getting very interesting now.


Camera has flat batteries so hopefully tomorrow some pics.


................oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on March 31, 2016, 04:56:51 PM
Things are getting more interesting....

From the tests sound's like it will work well enoungh with a bit of tweaking

If you gound pin 13 on the 8010 directly under voltage should kick in after 3 sec's - I would test this

What is the wave like to/from the 2110's? (If this is ok -which i am thinking it will be- is there noise on this under load?)

Frackers yes the LCD's are tiny and really only good for test's

Antman I am sure there are probably a few people who will be following your build who want a beefy 12v inverter for the 4x4/van etc so keep us up to date. RF

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 31, 2016, 05:28:41 PM
No pin 13 on this one will not turn off the pwm on low voltage. +5 will turn it off, ground won't. 5v means over voltage to hell.... so it has no under voltage protection at this time.. big wow really.

By that I mean to go low acv... we will be drawing well over 10kw from the looks.... this thing has grunt.... and runs cold under 2kw.

I ran it at 2400w for 10 mins this morning, it took 5 mins before i could feel  difference in the heat sink .. after 10 mins it had risen to 27C... no air movement.... that must be very very efficient......., better then the 002 board... start temp was 17c..... thats pretty startling really.

Just like the 002, starts anything I have tried so far. it is all looking too simple... not understanding why i didn't do this years ago... save a lot of time and effort getting the pj up to scratch.

This will run the house loads today as a good test of all kinds of loads, mixed and solo, high and low from 177w at the low end, to 3kw or more for a few hours, then back to normal 200w-6000w cycles.

I expect it to do it easily from what I have seen.... stupid simple seems to work this time....egad.

Should be not much tweaking RF... there is nothing much on the board. Not sure what is causing the apparent distortion, but it is not showing up as a heating source thats fairly certain... it runs too cold under high loads, thats where I would have expected bad switching to show up.



.............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 31, 2016, 05:52:58 PM
This is the scrappy little devil....
running the house, hot water on so about 3kw... certainly does not look like much... but gee does it power along.

[attachimg=1]

Not much more I can say... it just works....


............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on March 31, 2016, 06:13:50 PM
Great work again Oztules!

I agree that if there was a switching problem; at high load this would soon show its self (normally the smoke will come out) so how bad is the distortion (photo of the scope trace?)

But with the low temp rise and performance you are getting so far looks pretty good. RF
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 31, 2016, 06:44:04 PM
Camera does not take real life pics very well of the trace.

You can see the wave where the trace has passed, and that is indicative of the real trace I see, camera sees the fluorescence differently, and greatly exaggerates the trace widths.. the dying phosphor is a better indication.

It is not criminal by any means, nor is it perfect.... That by the way is driving a 3kw load, and has been for the last hour or so.... heat sinks at 33c.. ambient is now 20... but a fair bit of warmth is coming from the transformer 60c, and being dragged into the fan as you can see from the bench set up, so it would be less than that.

Also remember the fan is spinning very slowly, can't hear it at all, as it is running 5v not 12.... seems about 1/4 speed or less... gentle air movement, and like I say probably bringing hot air from the transformer into it too.

The primary on the tranny was only 16mmsq, and 50-60 amps warms it up   fair bit. The 240v winding seems cool.
Heat loss at 75c seems to stabilise the tranny from tests over the last week, but it is way undersize

Here we are at around the 3kw mark, 2400 hot water, and the rest tv, freezer is running ( 700ltr), fridge is running...... still pretty good

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

..........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on March 31, 2016, 06:53:41 PM
Oz Nice work on the testing. I cant believe how well it works for something so simple.

I think the next board revision after my current one I will do away with the EGS002 all together like yourself. Before I do this I want to play around with reading and sending commands to the IC from an arduino. I've never done something like that before but surely it can be done.

RF ill be sure to detail all my results here as I progress. If it all works to plan and I get a good result I may have to get a small run of boards pick and placed. It would probably be a bit difficult to assemble my board without the right soldering equipment and know how. Getting a PCB house to do the pick and place shouldn't be too pricey. Maybe about $200 per board including top quality components. Not as cheap as a PJ board but should be much higher in quality.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 31, 2016, 07:10:03 PM
"Oz Nice work on the testing. I cant believe how well it works for something so simple. "........ and your not the only one... I'm staggered... and a little dissapointed, I thought the journey would go on a bit longer than a single try out without modification

Here is a better try at it..... still to wide.. but you can see the distortion

Just boiled the jug as well, running 5kw for 3 mins... lucky the jug boiled in this time as over 100 amps through the 68a o/l would not run much longer I should think... must have been a near thing.

Took the scope into the house, used a 240:32v transformer for galvanic isolation... about 3kw with h/w and freezers and all the rest of the stuff running.... so I guess it is as true to life picture as you can get... ie this is what the house is seeing, not some test bench best scenario.....

[attachimg=1]

Be a good hour and a half now at 3kw, temp at 35c Shed temp is getting pretty warm now too will get ambient reading soon and edit this... yes edit is  27c air drawn into the fan, so only 8C above ambient@3kw.... excellent with the tiny air flow being used.

Edit 2 Now well after 12 oclock...so hot water now off. average power now down to 500 watts, incoming air 27c heat sink is 28c... coolest running unit I think I have seen.

Not going to be too concerned with distortion.RF

..............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on March 31, 2016, 09:06:53 PM
Oz nice :D; and thanks for the scope work ...maybe a snubber on the drive could be used to clean it up -just thinking out loud- .It seems like its certianly not affecting the performance but I am not that suprised considering the performance of the EGS002 board (actually a little suprised  :o that the wave form is not better since you didnt say it was a problem with EGS002 this would tend to say its more a layout thing)

Antman I am sure there wouldn't be much trouble off loading some pre populated boards for 12v 2Kw+ and look forward to your updates. RF
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on March 31, 2016, 09:11:48 PM
Once mine is up and running I've got a new Rygol scope that can take screenshots and is fairly high resolution.

I might have to grab the thermal scanning camera from work too to see where all the heat is going  :)
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on March 31, 2016, 09:56:36 PM
Yes RF not sure what it is, but I'm not loosing sleep over it at the moment.... may look at it further when the unit is not spread across the bench...but the cool nature of the fets is all I am interested in....... no heat is good... a nice wave with heat is not.... so I ll look into in the future I guess... we'll see.

Still don't know why the chip won't undervoltage either, yet keeps good voltage regulation.

I've got 56p caps on the crystal, as I am waiting for the 20pf to turn up.. wondering if thats a problem with the wave.

On the smaller test transformer, the i didn't notice the noise there, so it may be better inductor on the transformer line may be the trick too.

Your gonna have to give this a go  RF

.............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 01, 2016, 06:27:02 PM
RF,
Ran it on bench test with different transformer ( 500w) and there is no distortion at all, It looks like the rats nest "design" of the inverter spread across the bench has something to do with it, it my even be a problem with the scope running on one 50hz inverter, measuring the next door inverter... and there may be some cross over on the bench someplace ( pick one...) Wave looks perfect

This pic is the best that would do with this camera and a cro screen. The wave is squeezed and stretched to amplify the possible problems.... there are none.

[attachimg=1]


 In truth there are no breaks, no blemishes or any other distortion, it is all in the way the camera works with this medium. It interacts with the grid lines, and takes multiple pics at the same time... so if I move, it looks like this

[attachimg=2]

So thats why it is thick and fizzy, it really is quite fine and clean now.
So it appears not to be a board layout problem at this stage... which is pleasing.

This one gives a better idea how the grid lines interfere and make it look split... notice where it crosses a grid line.
[attachimg=3]

And a blow up of it

[attachimg=4]

More obvious now ( click on above pic )

The symmetry is all wrong because of the curved glass tube etc etc... but it is good enough for me to play with... The wave is thin and true in real life anyway.

Ran anything I threw at it during the day.... tough as nails

............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on April 01, 2016, 07:02:31 PM
Bloody Magnificent! thats absolutely awesome  ;D .So now we just need a willing body to code a micro to take the place of the EG8010 and then we'll have to look for something else to do (actually thought this may have taken a little longer). RF
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 01, 2016, 07:13:20 PM
I admit I was pleased and saddened when it came to life first go... I expected a long drawn out battle to find out why this technology is so expensive, when in fact a 2 dollar chip ( $1.50 some places ) takes care of all the nonsense intellectual property these folks are trying to protect and screw the rest of us.

This combined with a 3 dollar nano could do anything the fancy ones can do .. except ac coupling with a generator..... but there is new firmware that does that for the 8010 chips too from what I have seen.

I don't want that, so won't pursue that course, as there is nothing this won't drive on it's own, needs no co-generation.

The software is not so difficult, and there are plenty of ones to look at n the web for starters. Really only a jump table and scaling will do it.

End of the road for me anyway, the 8010 @ $1.50 is cheaper than any chip I could hope to program... so whats the point .

.............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on April 01, 2016, 10:29:26 PM
Had a bit more time to play with mine today. I populated a new board and added a heat sink so I can test a little higher power.

All I had laying around were some crappy IRFZ48V Mosfets. With 8 mosfets total the board can handle 100w but that's about the limit. The layout is not ideal and the mosfets have heaps of switching loss. The high current tracks are way too small and need beefing up. Also the heat sink doesn't work the best since I just stuck the mosfets down with sticky thermal tape ;)

Oztules I agree with you on the programming. I wouldn't bother doing it from scratch when the 8010 does such a great job already. I'd jut work on integrating it with a micro to get the best out of it.

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on April 01, 2016, 10:45:02 PM
Also did some testing on the output. The sine wave is far from perfect especially under no load but under a 50w load it's cleaned up a bit. I think once I make a proper power board with a decent layout the output will be a lot cleaner. Also tuning the gate resistors might help too.

Does anyone have a schematic of the PJ power board that I can look at to see if I'm missing anything?

Cheers
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on April 02, 2016, 02:37:55 AM
Hi Oztules,

Congratulations......

I had every confidence that you would obtain a good result, and it looks like you have. My hat is duly doffed once again.

"I expected a long drawn out battle to find out why this technology is so expensive, when in fact a 2 dollar chip ( $1.50 some places ) takes care of all the nonsense intellectual property these folks are trying to protect and screw the rest of us."

Brilliant totally agree.......

Now some questions from this humble FOOL, who has very little knowledge of electronics, but is proceeding with the BigOzInverter that will have nobody elses bits in it. yippee.....

Questions on your "OzControl 8010 Board", in the most recent pics, and yes I am sad because I enlarge as much as possible to look see, you seem to be running a hybrid board from your 2 previous posted PCB layout drawings boards. ?
 Your latest board has the sense coil input, but you have retained the 3 Tr's, VR's the largeish tip35c, the 7812 & 7805.?
You don't seem to be running the big 2uf metal foil Cap.?
Any more info on the Crystal please.........?
I will enlarge the OzControl Board to span across the New 6-15kW PowerBoard heat sinks, similar fashion to PJ, as I have good results with forced cooling with that arrangement.

Lots of copper on your PCB, good, I love lots of copper with these hard working, any environment boards. Engineering wise we want lots and lots of copper, but its a bit of a battle getting PCB software community to understand this.

The large, A4 size, 6-15kW PowerBoard is coming along, hopefully by the end of next week they should be starting to be produced in China, funny really how we go full circle. With our compliments I will put a couple in the post to you, its the least we can do.

I have found, and yet another steep learning curve, that the PCB Software 'Target 3001', reasonable low cost, (a German company, yes don't laugh), can import my Engineering CAD DXF files and convert to gerber files, with some tweeks.
Its the tweeks I will need to sort out.

And finally.....SMA have at last put my monies back into my Bank account. A year later money back for a Sunny Island Inverter that locks you as a slave to SMA products, or puts your HZ up to destroy your domestic electrical appliances, just sheer madness........

Your work 'oztules' with this New Inverter, has given me, my Family, and Community, real Self Empowerment.

Many Thanks.



Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 02, 2016, 03:05:32 AM
domestic supply looks very sad antman.... or was it in the scope... limited.
Edit for antman... I think it would be a good idea to have the voltage sense resistors as a daisy chain of a few more resistors...320v across those little resistors is asking for problems. I use 2x50k on each leg for this reason, and mine are physically bigger than yours.... just a comment.

Built what should be the final board this afternoon, plugged in the chips, and got a perfect sine wave on the bench transformer and supply...... so took it out to the shed and hooked it up to the the pj power board ( with gate mods)... and stood back waiting for the bang.... started just fine, nearly tea time so jumped straight in and plugged the air compressor in.... instant energetic start..... switch off and go for tea....

So thats where we are right now.

Clockman. hang back a bit with the control card, and in the next day...hopefully, this board will have been subjected to everything I can throw at it, and get a few hrs under it's belly at high load, but will wait till tomorrow for that when the daylight is available to carry the high loads.... the solar can put out over 100 amps... so that saves the batts from copping it before I go to bed later on.

I will put up the pdf, pics of this card from and messy back ( I plated most finer tracks to stop corrosion problems ), pcb circuit pic etc... then you can make one in your sink and test it out for real..... also the BOM of the parts list to fall out of the pcb program.
Will also check the component pin holes before putting up the pcb file proper....as I don't get them manufactured, I use any size pad for component making.... it's just for me usually  ....should be a five dollar board to make in china.

Will be happy to accept your boards too  :)



I am waiting for the CT's to come, so am using some from a cheap amp meter... won't make any difference. The scope of the current control is whoa to very high... so easy to set what you expect your limit to be,

I am still using the temp control as temp and stop.... must get to test how the inhibit line actually works, it may not soft start if tickled.. the temp does.... torroids won't accept this behavior.

Oh and crystal is 12mhz, and the CT is not there but the 2 pins at top right take the plug for it so it can be remote sensing.
The board you saw was done a few weeks ago... pic back there somewhere, but the converter boards had not come... so as soon as they did and the 2110 turned up ( courtesy of Steve Bliss), then it had to be tested pronto... and thats the one you saw/see there



............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 02, 2016, 03:15:46 AM
This is a pic of the board made this afternoon.
EDIT..... there is a mistake on the current diodes... do not make this board, or if you have already, then cut the tracks between the two anodes of the CT diodes and the two cathodes....duh! The anodes ned to be joined to each other and so do the cathodes.... but not the cathodes and anodes on the rectified side.

Here is pic of corrected part... the faulty one is at the end of post

[attachimg=7]

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=5]

[attachimg=3]

...........oztules
and the pdf
[attachimg=4]

BOM as it seems to be....will cross check when I get time.


"Comment","Pattern","Quantity","Components"


"","10PIN","1","A79"
"","SPADE","4","A51 A60 A61 A62"
"0r","AXIAL0.3","8","A1 A4 A13 A14 A17 A26 A34 A50"
"0r","AXIAL0.4","3","A27 A29 A52"
"0r","AXIAL0.5","1","A28"
"100r","AXIAL0.3","2","A77 A78"
"100uf 63v","RB.2/.4","1","A71"
"104","2PINCAP","3","A37 A75 A76"
"104","C1","2","A22 A23"
"104","C2","3","A10 A11 A12"
"104n","C1","1","A43"
"10k","AXIAL0.3","2","A38 A67"
"10k","AXIAL0.4","2","A6 A40"
"10k","POT","1","A47"
"10uf","C2","2","A5 A8"
"10uf","C2S","4","A18 A19 A20 A21"
"120r","AXIAL1.1","1","A7"
"13v","DIODE0.4","1","A39"
"1k","AXIAL0.3","2","A33 A63"
"1k","C2","1","A74"
"1n","C2","1","A73"
"1n4007","DIODE2","1","A59"
"2110","DIP14","2","A2 A3"
"22pf","C1","2","A30 A31"
"2k","POT","1","A46"
"2uf","11PINCAP","2","A9 A69"
"4007","DIODE2","7","A53 A54 A55 A56 A57 A58 A64"
"4u7","C2","3","A15 A41 A42"
"4u7","C2S","2","A68 A70"
"50k","AXIAL0.3","4","A48 A49 A65 A66"
"5v6","D3","1","A16"
"8010","801032","1","A72"
"fr107","D3","1","A80"
"fr107","D3","1","A25"
"led","LED","1","A32"
"tip35c","TO220V","2","A35 A36"
"xtal","RAD0.2","1","A24"


Yes it is messed up from how the pro's do it, but I never have used this before, so don't get too carried away with filling out the form for each component.

Here is the faulty part.... needs to separate the cathodes from the anodes... they are short circuit on the board..... makes the current signal pointless really....
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: lighthunter on April 02, 2016, 09:30:36 AM
Oztules,

 i cant figure out what "0r" is supposed to be in your BOM. Is it a 0 ohm resistor.
.... fuse?
Maybe someone else asked and i missed it but im just drawing a blank.
Thanks!

LH
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 02, 2016, 12:22:38 PM
yes to stay with PJ plug, a lot of cross over occurs.... so on a single sided board, you need jumpers.... my fingers find the 0r resistors easier than bending wire into holes, but there are a few where i did do that.... only to accommodate the big plug receiver over the top of the jumpers.

Check picture of board with pcb.... those resistors have a single black bar.

........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on April 02, 2016, 04:44:40 PM
Antman - I agree with Oztules have a look at the gate drive resistor value.  I am suprised this can not do more than 100w (would of thought more like 1-1.5Kw peak pretty easy) Other wise a very neat looking unit . The 240v domestic supply looks like its almost flat topping?

Geez Oztules the way you are churning these things out you must be knee deep in them :) .The new board looks nice; but it looks like the overlay is missing a bit off the left side. RF
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 02, 2016, 08:03:53 PM
Yes RF, there are half a dozen or more of perfectly good boards stacked on the bench now, but this one looks like I may stick with it.
I used the whole kinsten board 114 x 165mm as it covers the entire PJ fet board.

The effect of this makes the slow revving fan do an even better job, as it only turns slowly, but at 2.4kw for the last hour or so, the ambient temp of the incoming air is  is 24.1c, and the heat sink temp is barely 2 -3C above that... must be very efficient.

Still pinch myself to believe this is all real... works way too well for such a simple thing... better than commercial stuff in the start up stakes, and every bit as good for everything else.... better than the selectronic on some loads.

Todays pics of the new board in operation running the house.
Incoming air is 24.1c... heat sink  is only 26-27

[attachimg=1]

Been running between 2-3.5kw all morning... washing machine , hot water etc.

[attachimg=3]

The kinsten 114165 fits nicely, helps air flow of the fins and the tip35's


[attachimg=2]

I have more inverters now than I can poke a stick at.... and I can't even blow them up.

............oztules

ps for RF... this is not exactly the same, but the differences are not dicernable really for practical puproses using it for guidance. The pdf is the real screenfor the board shown.. basically identical.
[attachimg=4]
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 02, 2016, 09:51:17 PM
Well, it's all very very boring...... it just works without fuss no matter what I do...... so decided to run an old 2kw transformer of the EI type.

No problems again.... the thing is stable as.

Here we are with the EI

[attachimg=1]

and here with it's wave@ 800 watts

[attachimg=2]

It's all very mundane really...

..........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: rossw on April 02, 2016, 10:09:22 PM
Well, it's all very very boring...... it just works without fuss no matter what I do...... so decided to run an old 2kw transformer of the EI type.

No problems again.... the thing is stable as.

ok, so now you've really piqued my interest - I have an old (stopped-working, believed to be the microprocessor) RAPS-5, which might be a great "rejuvination" project!
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 02, 2016, 10:17:30 PM
Well that little board, a transformer, and your fet card ... and you can make it as powerful as your transformer and fets can handle... it is that simple.

That unit has  big torroid does it not..... it will have an inductor there as well somewhere.
You have a big box, there must be fet card there...only need the fets and gate resistors( and diode) nothing else.

It is so simple my head spins really.

You can easily make it as good or better than original... but with no bells and whistles.... but a nano can do all the rest anyway ( genstart etc ).

So yes worth the effort, and next time replace three chips for a few dollars and it goes again.... and again......and fets of course.


..............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 03, 2016, 12:46:35 AM
Well I have found an error in the board, some clutz joined all the ends of the diodes together for the current sense.... they need to be split into 2 and 2 not 4 joined together.... bet I did it trying to tidy the thing up..... only that last board I think... will change it soon.

Thats why I'm the village idiot I guess.

Haven't bothered to set it this time, as I am so confident it will drive anything... and it does, but I would like some control after 10kw or more......

...............oztules
look at this stupid mistake
[attachimg=1]

Surprising how well the current control works when you cut the track between the two lots of diodes
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 03, 2016, 04:16:45 AM
Why the undervoltage lock out does not work.... the mystery is solved..... it is not implemented in this particular version of the 8010 chip.
Suffix ends in 1533 on my chips, the other ones were 1536.....

Peeled one off the 002 board... and placed it into mine....and who..... the undervoltage lockout works

So BEWARE 5133 suffix has no UVLO for reasons I don't understand..... fancy that...


...............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on April 03, 2016, 04:42:20 AM
I think early on I mentioned this was an option from some sellers ;so it depends on which seller sends what as the default I guess  .Some sellers I see dont mention or offer Under/Over voltage protection. So something to keep in mind.  RF


 A few places have these boards very cheap  :) ($7.85 free shipping) ;also if ordering these boards they are supplied default with under voltage protection but you may ask for other options depending on the seller (some do not offer this and the board is supplied with default).

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 03, 2016, 05:04:35 AM
You did mention it, but I wrongly assumed it was an on board thing, figured the chips to be the same... but no......
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on April 03, 2016, 05:09:52 AM
Well I guess if ordering an ES002 its a board thing and if ordering a EG8010 its a chip thing :( bit sad that all sellers dont offer this piece of information as I have seen very few mention it at all. RF
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on April 03, 2016, 05:13:25 AM
Hey guys

I gave up playing with my older smaller board to divert my time to the designing the newer one. I can fine tune everything once I build the new board.

I decided to scrap the old design and go with through hole mosfets since I was worried about the cooling. The high power paths are thicker too which helps with current carrying capacity. The only thing I don't like about this one is you need Insulating pads for the mosfets but I suppose its not the end of the world.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on April 03, 2016, 02:14:56 PM
Oz prehaps you could try to programme the EG8010 (tx/rx pins 4/5) per the data sheet - "EG8010 uses RS2323 serial communication port to configure inverter’s parameters such as
voltage, frequency, dead time through opticalcoupler as shown" - and turn on the undervoltage ?.

Antman the new board is looking good. RF
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 03, 2016, 04:54:51 PM
No... think I'll just get new ones.....

..............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on April 04, 2016, 05:18:42 AM
Thanks RF. I've ordered the boards this afternoon so hopefully they come early next week.

Have a look at this Chinese take on a power board based around the EGS002. I actually think they've done quite a good job on the layout. It has some similarities to mine. The power ratings are fairly modest too by China standards.

https://world.taobao.com/item/522948147797.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7700846.0.0.xamBYI&_u=l1rmv006e1e6
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on April 04, 2016, 06:03:28 AM
Yes I have seen this board and was wondering what they were using for FET's (I could not get a good enough view to see) and what the connectors on the end were for (LCD?). This is much more complex then Oztules version. RF

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 04, 2016, 07:28:16 AM
Darn good looking board...... glad I built mine first, otherwise I would have bought that ... and learned nothing, but gee looks like a good unit.

HY4008 fets good choice too.

For anyone not sure how to do their own, I would give this a go....

I'm much happier with mine simply because of the ease of repair... 3 plug in chips.

nice.


...........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Phred on April 04, 2016, 08:46:44 AM
Thanks RF. I've ordered the boards this afternoon so hopefully they come early next week.

Have a look at this Chinese take on a power board based around the EGS002. I actually think they've done quite a good job on the layout. It has some similarities to mine. The power ratings are fairly modest too by China standards.

https://world.taobao.com/item/522948147797.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7700846.0.0.xamBYI&_u=l1rmv006e1e6
My Chinese is atrocious in other words zilch. Spent a few hrs trying to wade thru' Taobao to figure out how to contact the seller.....no joy. Has anyone managed to buy one. If so please`post a how to
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on April 04, 2016, 08:53:28 AM
Oztules, what will your next project be when your done this one, I'm hoping for a good mppt controller hehehe.http://www.anotherpower.com/board/Smileys/default/smiley.gif


Billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on April 04, 2016, 03:51:40 PM
Antman looks like you have to install a comms programme to talk with the seller (highligted on the right hand side). It would appear to be pretty good value @ $71.00 + (shipping could be any thing though) for the 48v 5500Va unit (all units from 24v3000 Va are the same price the 12v unit show's as $68.88) they also offer a range of transformers to match(wild looking bit of gear) https://world.taobao.com/item/36491177887.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a230r.1.14.23.upW19u&ns=1&abbucket=13#detail (https://world.taobao.com/item/36491177887.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a230r.1.14.23.upW19u&ns=1&abbucket=13#detail) up to 6Kw. They have added more photos since I first saw this  and a lot more information. RF

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 04, 2016, 04:37:29 PM
Yes  can see a few problems with it too... but easily overcome.

It is designed again for EI transformer. The transformer in the pics is also a cheap welded unit.... idle current will be no better than the old W7.... and this is where we started from in the first place. Welding on a transformer means by definition... higher eddy currents and heating

I note as well they found the dynamic head room is less than thre PJ and this is reflected in the turns ratio they recommend for the transformer... ie pj would be 30v:240v where these will be 26v:240v

Thats why I had to take three turns off for my 24v pj5000 conversion.

A torroid and inductor will fix this, but then you will have to cut out the 393 on the 002 board.

With these changes, I suspect a good house driving unit.... not as high power sustainable perhaps as the PJ fet boards can do... but better than a whole lot of units out there with fancy branding and huge price tags.

If I didn't have so many inverters laying around the place that can blitz it as is.... I would have to get one or two to play with.... but it does not offer any improvement for me.

.............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 04, 2016, 05:32:00 PM
Billy.... I dont use mppt, and never will.
Not because I don't think it is useful, .. it is useful, but only if you build a miss matched ( poorly thought out) system.

I can't use a mppt in my system, as it would not help it at all... not even a little bit.

If you choose you cell size properly ( ie 6x6 not 5x5 ) for the same size panel you will end up with greater gains than a mppt is capable of. So a 5x5 72/144 cell panel will be way over voltage for A 24V system @ 5.5a or thereabouts.... you need mppt big time.
But if you buy 6x6 cells, you will have 8.8amps before you do anythin, and only a small differential to overcome.... which is too small for the buck to be useful for.

So the wrong panel selection costs you over 30% losses which you then try to make up with mppt.... not for me.

Secondly , a buck failure in the mppt may cause savage over charging, as your start voltage is way over the top, where in the 6x6 cell units, they will drive a bank up to just over comfortable equalise charge.

So no hope of me playing with them.... but they are simple enough, use a nano and buck.

..........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on April 04, 2016, 05:37:55 PM
Ok Oztules, thanks for that great info, I think I have the larger cells so Im good .


Billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 04, 2016, 05:47:35 PM
Billy, do you have the address for the mos boards on ebay, did not find them as yet

3kw to 8kw are the same board, 10 and 15 electrically then same, but bigger.

With the new 8010 board of mine, I  think the 8kw will be enough under all circumstances, it runs cooler than the pj electronics form the tests so far... much cooler.

............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Phred on April 04, 2016, 06:22:14 PM
Antman looks like you have to install a comms programme to talk with the seller (highligted on the right hand side). It would appear to be pretty good value @ $71.00 + (shipping could be any thing though) for the 48v 5500Va unit (all units from 24v3000 Va are the same price the 12v unit show's as $68.88) they also offer a range of transformers to match(wild looking bit of gear) https://world.taobao.com/item/36491177887.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a230r.1.14.23.upW19u&ns=1&abbucket=13#detail (https://world.taobao.com/item/36491177887.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a230r.1.14.23.upW19u&ns=1&abbucket=13#detail) up to 6Kw. They have added more photos since I first saw this  and a lot more information. RF
To get a English translate it can be be done 2 ways
 1 use google page translate.......http://itools.com/tool/google-translate-web-page-translator
 2 After the site page loads pull down the menu 语言
 then select select language then the language u prefer
 
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Phred on April 04, 2016, 07:27:46 PM
Parallel driver board
https://world.taobao.com/item/524775334183.htm?fromSite=main&spm=5706.1529727.a31f1.2.4Zcxix&scm=1007.11502.21311.100200300000003&pvid=5e38a6d6-266b-4dac-a971-1eb99e9b3135
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on April 04, 2016, 07:50:49 PM

Oztules,

here it is, this is for the 5kw mos boards , but i did see the 8kw boards yesterday

http://www.ebay.com/itm/262326559176

billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Phred on April 04, 2016, 07:56:39 PM

Oztules,

here it is, this is for the 5kw mos boards , but i did see the 8kw boards yesterday

http://www.ebay.com/itm/262326559176

billy
don't ship to Oz
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 06, 2016, 05:44:28 AM
This is as good as I can get it for the time being into a big EI

[attachimg=1]

............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frwainscott on April 06, 2016, 09:04:02 PM
 Antman ,

Here is A site with your basic configuration for fet/heat-sink. Might get an idea or two from it. As it is using the 8010.   

http://www.lz2gl.com/power-inverter-3kw/

Frank ....
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frwainscott on April 06, 2016, 10:09:01 PM
Does anyone know what the current sense coil is ?  eg : rate - 150A/0.05A or a part no.

 Thanks .... Frank .... :-)
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on April 07, 2016, 10:07:09 PM
Hey Frank

Thanks for the link. I haven't seen that site yet. It's a nice example since they have included all power filtering. I'm guessing the designer was an engineer looking at the complexity of everything.

No idea what the current sense coil is.

My boards have been made and shipped from China. They should arrive on Monday hopefully. I cant wait to pot them together  :)
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 08, 2016, 07:15:26 AM
anything like this frank

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DL-CT08CL5-20A-10mA-2000-1-0-120A-Micro-Current-Transformer-HYM-/281440234858?hash=item4187252d6a:g:60oAAOSwEK9UEXV-

.........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frwainscott on April 08, 2016, 08:18:28 PM
 Oz... Thanks for the reply, It looks like that will do the job, I did'nt expect it to be 2000/1 seems high.
Do you or anyone know whether it decreases the amperage on a linear scale,somewhat gradual or a rapid drop of amperage?

 I'm thinking a person could possibly use this approach to limit the KW output to keep them from destroying themselves and/or other equipment on a dead short/extreme load.
 Think ill try 1k/1 since im modifying to 24volt to get started so I wont break the bank.  :-)

 If you have any suggestions for batteries and solar cells it would be greatly appreciated..... :-) My plan is to get up and going with 24 volt system, Then upgrade to 48 volt as I can. Im using less than 2k except for hot water and washing and drying clothes and welder.

Oh if you look at the schematic i just posted for Antman, Reply #150 that is the one you were supposed to get to check out. It is an lf not a hf inverter. and they are using the same components you are.   A little more in-depth circuitry, I think. 

Thanks.....  Frank
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: lighthunter on April 09, 2016, 12:41:12 AM
Hi Oztules, just in case you get bored with the 8010, they make a 3-phase version....

 http://m.ebay.com/itm/EGS031-three-phase-Pure-Sine-Wave-Inverter-Driver-Board-EG8030-UPS-EPS-Test-/171548904977?_trkparms=aid%253D222007%2526algo%253DSIC.MBE%2526ao%253D1%2526asc%253D20150519202348%2526meid%253D77200f05fbc34e149c77e0db782b489d%2526pid%253D100408%2526rk%253D7%2526rkt%253D14%2526mehot%253Dpp%2526sd%253D171548932908&_trksid=p2056116.c100408.m2460.
 
I will try again with link..
It still came out with a zillion characters. Oh well i tried.

Cheers LH
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frwainscott on April 09, 2016, 01:56:00 AM
Oz,
 
If you take a short video of the oscilloscope,then play it ,pause it on a steady frame,(or pause and advance frames) then do a screen shot you will have a picture without multiple waves or distortion.

Seems like a lot of trouble for a picture huh? But it does work! And all you need is a smart phone!

Do a google search for your phone screen shot if you don't know the sequence.....

Frank....  :-)
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 10, 2016, 01:01:04 AM
You can buy those other inverters here:
http://www.yoycart.com/Product/528093395667/
....oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on April 10, 2016, 01:53:02 AM
do you think they would be much good for anything?
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 10, 2016, 02:17:37 AM
If you look at the first tests I did using only 2 fets/leg... then yes.
I suspect they would be all you need for most circumstances from my limited experience thus far.... ie normal off grid house usage where you only use say 3-500 watts with 5-6kw surges

..............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frackers on April 10, 2016, 04:06:30 AM
I wonder what the flying lead onto the egs002 board is for?
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 10, 2016, 05:28:19 AM
I think they are doing the same sort of thing as me, and intercepting the IFB  line... could be using it for the IFB, or maybe also the inhibit for their housekeeping chip.

They have a quad comparator there for possibly their own temp, current,battery volt- overv, underv... and I assume they are using this as the entry point to tell the chip to go or whoa..... most probably for their rendition of low battery volts... this is only a guess remember..... not fact.

...............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on April 10, 2016, 05:45:46 AM
Found a better listing on Aliexpress showing what the potentiometers and pins are for. Looks like it could be a good little unit to play around with but Ill sick with making my own for now.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-1pcs-1000W-3500W-DC12V-48V-to-AC-220V-pure-sine-inverter-board-frequency-inverter/32632549961.html?spm=2114.30010308.3.10.ut8jCV&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_9,searchweb201602_5_10017_10005_10006_10034_10021_507_10022_508_10020_10018_10019,searchweb201603_6&btsid=d7e2931a-fdd2-404a-ab4a-c692c960a062
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on April 10, 2016, 05:51:21 AM
Forgot to add this one too. Its a bigger version with much more images showing it in use with various transformers.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-1pcs-1800W-5500W-DC12V-24V-36V-48V-to-AC-220V-pure-sine-inverter-board/32637730780.html?spm=2114.30010308.3.44.ut8jCV&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_9,searchweb201602_5_10017_10005_10006_10034_10021_507_10022_508_10020_10018_10019,searchweb201603_6&btsid=d7e2931a-fdd2-404a-ab4a-c692c960a062
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on April 13, 2016, 08:40:25 AM
howdey,
just wondering about the big black thing on the right hand side,
on the overlay it looks like 2x2uf capacitors?
would it be possible to get an ebay link or similar so that i can find it, i'm ordering the bits and pieces to build a couple

Cheers,
            Sam
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 13, 2016, 03:34:31 PM
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CBB61-Polypropylene-Film-Motor-Start-Run-Capacitor-2uF-50-60Hz-450V-AC-New-/121147884237?hash=item1c34fa02cd:g:HXQAAOxyod5SJp9o

I built 2 in an afternoon... that includes etching the board etc..... it really is the way to go from the point of view of keeping things going under any circumstances... eg lightning strike etc...

Are you doing the 002 or the 8010 version?

............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 13, 2016, 04:05:34 PM
I forgot to update the pdf with the minor change at the diodes for the current.

so here it is....very minor in the scheme of things... so if you have already etched, just cut the track where needed. between the 2 sets of diodes for the current sense.
[attachimg=1]

............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on April 13, 2016, 05:33:00 PM
going the 8010. seems like a better plan i ordered most of the parts last night but it will take a while for them to get here. i forgot about the undervoltage issue with some of the chips and forgot to check before ordering them. if i got the wrong ones is it going to cause me any major issues?

Cheers,
           Sam
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 13, 2016, 06:00:26 PM
Under most circumstances I can see... no... it won't make any difference.

I only wanted to get it to work because it wasn't working on my non 002 version... so I thought something was wrong.... when I found out the thing wasn't installed.... I was happy.... I couldn't care less it it was there or not... but I needed to know if the chip had a problem.. it doesn't.. works perfectly.

Apart form testing, it will never come into use in the real world..... unless your woefully under batteried, and over extending the output... usually the AC control is very tight, less than a volt over 5kw range.

It would be useful to  use a nano to take care of battery under voltage and you can use that for ac over/under as well, and just drive the current or temp input to halt operations and restart when you want.

Today I cobbled together a different power board to take advantage of the aerosharp or inspire inverter heat sinks.

This is only a test bed... so don't laugh too much.
 
The fets are only clamped down onto silicon heat strip... very quick to dismount... it is oddly spaced as it is an old test bed for a solar pumping system I made years ago.

This will be the way I will progress forward...... it is far more buildable without tooling to shape heat sinks etc.... or even no heat sink, and screw it onto a box full of water..... dont see it heating much up though, it is very efficient.


Here it is running a 2kw load for the last 15 mins.... everything is stone cold
[attachimg=1]


and again...
[attachimg=2]

and again...

[attachimg=3]

and then a rainbow came out to celebrate... both ends of it are in the same paddock.... not pots of gold I'm afraid



[attachimg=4]


This looks to be the way to go if you have big heat sinks..... I may go surface mount for this one...... terror.....



...............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on April 14, 2016, 12:52:47 AM
Nice Oztules. Wonder how Clockman is going with the ouput board overlays for home use?

All that's required for completeness is a PCB layout for the output board and roll your own cheap reliable inverters pretty much can be made at reasonable power levels and cost (especially if you salvage the transformers ,heat sinks and caps from  a donor old grid tie) :)
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on April 14, 2016, 12:56:04 AM
holy crap Oz,
every time i think i have a plan you make me want to start over.

that would make an awesome setup for 3-5kw in a standard inspire 1.5 box with very little work .
i think by the time i am done i will have 500 inverters and one house just like you haha

Cheers,
           Sam
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 14, 2016, 03:19:46 AM
Yes Dr Zogg... I have about a dozen spare inverters that will run the house easily.... don't know why I haven't stopped yet.... but just improving the system is sort of a mantra I think... from 4 years ago when I didn't know what was inside the things, we have progressed a long long way.

I never expected to build my own from the ground up with just blank copper and chips off the shelf... never.

Still, the transformer is the key, once that is done, everything else is simple, and this latest board makes it simpler to build physically, and gives you nearly the entire cavity of the inspire to use for the tranny... and far better use of external cooling ( those familiar with the inspire will know they have huge huge huge heat sink, near 1/2 inch thick and long and wide..... hate to think what they would cost off the shelf.... they weigh a lot.

So RF, I think we are nearly there. This board has heaps of solar ribbon and solder to build up the copper on both sides.

The capacitors did heat up at 3kw after a long period (30 mins or more) as they are only 85C types, and have poor ESR I would think.... but they didn't get over 45C.. but it was just a test.... the copper input wires got warm too.... but the fets never got to skin temp in that time.. as expected really.... no fan used... but was there in case I wanted it. 30 mins should be enough to get to running temp for them... also not enough capacitance for higher power levels i would think........ and I didn't put  a film capacitor in parallel... forgot it... that should help.



..................oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on April 14, 2016, 03:30:57 AM
it really is great what you have achieved, not only for yourself but for everyone else that is following along. i know that i truly appreciate the help that you have given me. it has made it possible for me to set up our new place better than i would have imagined. I thought i was going to need to be running a big generator but thank god i won't have to now. thumbs up mate job well done :)

with the 2uf cap on your control board do i use 1 of them or 2. it looks like there are 2 on the overlay but only 1 on the pic of your board?

Cheers,
           Sam
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 14, 2016, 04:48:38 AM
It is only used for wave shaping... and I don't find much difference really.... take your pick. 2-4 seems about right
Your welcome if you get anything useful out of it.


............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frackers on April 14, 2016, 06:41:36 AM
I forgot to update the pdf with the minor change at the diodes for the current.

so here it is....very minor in the scheme of things... so if you have already etched, just cut the track where needed. between the 2 sets of diodes for the current sense.
(Attachment Link)

............oztules

Can you confirm my scaling? I get a total copper size of 139mm x 78mm with the 0.1 inch spacing on the 'expander' board.

Also, did the adapter boards look like this? http://www.aliexpress.com/item/20pcs-LOT-QFP32-turn-DIP32-With-Grounding-Plate-TQFP-LQFP-EQFP-0-8MM-Pitch-IC-adapter/1807997780.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/20pcs-LOT-QFP32-turn-DIP32-With-Grounding-Plate-TQFP-LQFP-EQFP-0-8MM-Pitch-IC-adapter/1807997780.html)
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 14, 2016, 07:45:00 AM
not sure of the total size, but if your scaling makes the pins .1 inches for the converter board,and driver chips, thats all that matters.

my boards were different, as they were for 2 different sized chips, one one side, and different the other side.. those look to be fine though.
mine were these
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/301725262964?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

...........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Phred on April 15, 2016, 06:29:40 AM
Forgot to add this one too. Its a bigger version with much more images showing it in use with various transformers.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-1pcs-1800W-5500W-DC12V-24V-36V-48V-to-AC-220V-pure-sine-inverter-board/32637730780.html?spm=2114.30010308.3.44.ut8jCV&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_9,searchweb201602_5_10017_10005_10006_10034_10021_507_10022_508_10020_10018_10019,searchweb201603_6&btsid=d7e2931a-fdd2-404a-ab4a-c692c960a062
For anyone who wishes to buy It is cheaper from Taobao but the problem is to enter the shipping address the pages go into Chinese. With the help of my neigbour's friend I have registered my shipping address but struck a problem with payment Ozzie bank visa or mastercards aren't accepted by Alipay only cards from Chinese banks like Bank of China. In 2-3 weeks will get one of these & c if it works. The offer by BoC is the exchange isn't loaded with 3% fee so one pays on the straight  exchange rate on the day.  For a comparision Aliexpress = AUD190$ Taobao = AUD94.09 incl shipping in both cases
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 15, 2016, 06:15:26 PM
This site is easy to work with   http://www.yoycart.com/Product/528093395667/

They are kits at these cheaper prices...  think the alibaba ones were built.

...........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on April 16, 2016, 05:06:33 AM
Hi RFBurns, sorry been out of the Country recently.

I am happy with the main NewPowerBoard 5off masks for the single DIY make version, but with single thickness copper boards extra solder might be required, but this needs testing.

I have taken the design a step further by going to GERBER files for a PCB manufacture, . But its been a painfully steep learning curve, New PCB Software that will accept DXF from my CAD and I can work it, then export to GERBER Files.
 Got that far but stuck on the pre-vew stage, and I am still uncertain if the machines see that I want vast amount copper and big tracks?
Then there is the manufacture that wants GERBER files in a particular order and type.........

Work so far..... roughed out OzControl Board on its way.....














o

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on April 16, 2016, 05:10:25 AM
and ready for GERBER........
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Phred on April 16, 2016, 05:29:19 AM
This site is easy to work with   http://www.yoycart.com/Product/528093395667/

They are kits at these cheaper prices...  think the alibaba ones were built.

...........oztules
The one on Taobao is built too. The yoycart calculation comes in @ AUD 118$ assuming shipping is the same to Oz with exchange rate of 0.73 US to AUD $. The figures  might be a little higher depending what the bank decides to charge.
The Aliexpress page has some interesting apps and photo's
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/1pcs-1800AV-3000AV-5000AV-DC12V-24V-36V-48V-to-AC-220V-pure-sine-inverter-board-frequency/32637730780.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000023.15.0I5Nke
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: RFburns on April 16, 2016, 04:50:59 PM
Hey Clockman looking good!  :) keep us posted on the progress. RF
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 22, 2016, 07:13:26 PM
Building and testing a new simple fet board... only a 4kw cont, but 12kw start  capability.

It  is just a simple single thickness $5 double sided 6x4 board.

It now needs full tinning and placement of copper buss bars on it to connect the heavy leads to and bring the power into and out of the fets.
The beauty is the very short fet legs, and the lack of decent heat sinks..... bolts to anything, using the board as the clamp

anyway here it is after it's first low power test, before the copper goes on, and the caps are mounted.

[attachimg=1]

and the other side... I know this is not pretty..... but it should work so that the inspire box is empty when this is bolted to the heat sink, and the 8010 board is used to drive it..... lots of room for the transformer.

[attachimg=2]


Yeah, looks crap but will solve a host of building problems easily.


...............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on April 23, 2016, 01:43:36 AM
Looks good Oz. Appearance isn't everything.

Let us know your results on the high power test. I'm waiting for my boards to come still. Hopefully they come on Tuesday and I can find the time to put them together :)
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 23, 2016, 02:34:20 AM
Yes Antman, if I can get  decent buss bar soldered onto the 4 copper power planes, then it will be a winner..... gotta locate some copper somewhere on the island to shape and sweat onto the planes.

Keen to see how well it works. I expect 3-4kw continuous without a problem, and silly surge figures.... these things can start anything.

Keen to see yours running too... I like not using the 002 board, just the 8010


...........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on April 23, 2016, 08:30:18 PM
Hey Oz

I'm sure you'll be able to get over 3 kw through that with adequate heat sinking.

With mine i think i'll just just use the 002 board plugged in via female headers so it can be changed out in no time at all. To buy all the parts and assemble would cost heaps of money and time plus i like the idea of saving space on the power board by going vertical.

Those tantalum capacitors are pricey in small quantities and are probably the only weak point since they go into a dead short upon failure. I'll just give the boards a wash and seal with a varnish to protect from the environment. The current feedback pin will be shorted to ground and the arduino will manage startup and shutdown through the temperature feedback pin. This way I wont have to remove the op amp and modify in any way. (That's the plan anyway...fingers crossed)
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: peter on April 24, 2016, 06:16:06 AM
Hi all here
I'm wanting to join the game but I don't have the PCB design and fab. skills so I chose to get one of
those pre-made boards from aliexpress

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-1pcs-1800W-5500W-DC12V-24V-36V-48V-to-AC-220V-pure-sine-inverter-board/32637730780.html?spm=2114.30010308.3.44.ut8jCV&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_9,searchweb201602_5_10017_10005_10006_10034_10021_507_10022_508_10020_10018_10019,searchweb201603_6&btsid=d7e2931a-fdd2-404a-ab4a-c692c960a062

and
I got for $50 a dead Aero-Sharp grid tie inverter from ebay.
When the driver board arrives I'll get busy, hook it up to the rewound transformer and see how it all goes.
I have a self built hybrid solar power system 400 Ah at 48V battery, Victron 3000 charger/inverter and Morningstar MPPT controller fed by 3kW panels.
If I make an inverter that can start my air compressor for about $300 which the $2,700 Victron can not, it will be a bit of a laugh, eh?

First question:
when rewinding the tranny, must I use single conductor copper wire for the 240VAC secondary?
I can afford to buy some new 15A PVC insulated wire from Middys or whatever is suggegested as an alternative.
Frankly I can't be bothered to straighten out the old wire.
I'm going to Middys to get the big current primary cable anyway.

Peter

 
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 24, 2016, 04:30:28 PM
Which Aero sharp.... the 1.5kw are a bit small to wind easily... the 3kw would be big enough to work with nicely..... and in some cases you will only have to unwind the outer layers, and a 240v layer is already there for at least 3kw continuous, or 10 kw surges..

If you wind your transformer... reuse the old wire.... do not use  pvc wire for the secondary, only the 30mmsq wire for the primary can be plastic.

Yes it will blow the victron away, and will start anything you have in your house..... the victron is a toy only, not a real home inverter.

The transformer is important to get right for maximum power transfer..... read the article on transformer rewind, until you are sure you have it correct.

If you have a 1.5kw, try to get a second one, so you can join two transformers, take some of the core out from the center, and make a decent hole size to work with. I just did one like that for a 4kw unit... I made the center hole 100mm in size, and boy does that make winding a breeze... but it reduced a single core from .9v/turn to .7v/turn... then x2 = 1.4v/turn, but with the big hole.... who cares, it is so easy to wind.

Pics later today if I get time.

Antman, ran it for  while last night 2.5kw for 20 mins everything stayed below 25c.. it was 20c in the shed, no cooling. Used half a heatsink only.
Impressed at how well it ran, will give it a better test today.... don't like burning up 2-3kw at night for nothing... better when the sun is out and driving the bank with 5-6kw of input, can test for hours on end with the battery not seeing it.... we'll see how it handles it.... I did notice that the fets were cold, but the 25mmx3mm x 150mm long buss bars got luke warm.....came out of a curtis power controller rated at 300 amps.... very surprising, thought that bit would remain stone cold.... but no.


...............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 24, 2016, 06:40:05 PM
looks like this
[attachimg=1]

and this
[attachimg=2]

and this
[attachimg=3]

and the victim of the short test

[attachimg=4]

hard testing comes next... 3kw for the next few hrs driving house and loads and hot water for a few hrs

.....oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on April 24, 2016, 06:50:39 PM
Nice work OZ. I still cant believe something so simple works so well. I'm surprised that the copper bus bars are heating up too. With that much power I guess luke warm is acceptable lol.

What caps are you using? Mine are fairly small but are super low esr high quality Japanese ones so they still should work fine.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 24, 2016, 07:17:11 PM
Yes Antman,
I too am surprised that the warmest part is the buss bars from the curtis controller that is rated at over 300 amps@36v... and it does/did that too in my electric car.... so very surprised.

It is now connected to the house, but the time switch on the HW service was daylight savings.... and so had already heated up the water service.
It is now reset, bu the house is only using about 400w.

Just boiled the 3kw jug, and voltage sagged by 2.1v to 237.5v from 240@3.5kw..... not sure why the differential is that big,although around .8 of  a percent is pretty acceptable in my money.

See how the day goes I guess.


Caps are rubycon 5600uf 80v 85C... so bottom of the barrel, but all I have at the moment.

Normal operation they are cold, but 3kw for hours on end heat them to 45c-50c from the previous experiment.. that used three, there are now 4 on this card.

For so simple a unit, the results are world class really... I'm impressed.


................oztules

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 24, 2016, 07:54:14 PM
Some more useful shots from the other night building it.
[attachimg=1]

Underneath. The copper goes straight to the fet legs and to the outputs points

[attachimg=2]

and now bolted together.... note it takes only a few seconds to release the board from the heat sink for fet replacement... it it ever needs it....

[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]

..............oztules





Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: peter on April 24, 2016, 10:46:23 PM
Oztules: Answers
1.5kW
I will keep looking for another one. I understand that making one from 2x cores is about right for most loads ever encountered for this project.
But I will be happy with a solid 1.5kW result.
I will read carefully the tranny rewind pages.

(maybe off topic but..)
When pulling the Aero Sharp apart I found inside two very nice current sensors. They retail for about $30 each at RS Components.
1 of www.lem.com/docs/products/ltsr%2015-np.pdf
and
1 of www.lem.com/docs/products/lts%206-np.pdf
these are simple to use, the LTS6-NP needs 5V supply and gives a 105mV/A output, with an accurate and linear output of +/- 19A. 4.5KV isolation, fast AC response.
Perfect for interfacing with Arduino and other uCs. With the 10 bit A/D resolution of the Arduino, it resolves about 1/20 Amp

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on April 26, 2016, 06:08:47 AM
Update on my design...

Got the boards today and threw one together quickly with just the bare minimum to get it running. I only had 12 mosfets in my stock so I need to order some more. These are just cheapies at $1.30 each but for switching at low speed like this they will do. I like the fact that they are genuine too.

http://au.rs-online.com/web/p/mosfet-transistors/7982962/?searchTerm=PSMN4R3-30PL&relevancy-data=636F3D3226696E3D4931384E4B6E6F776E41734D504E266C753D656E266D6D3D6D61746368616C6C7061727469616C26706D3D5E5B5C707B4C7D5C707B4E647D2D2C2F255C2E5D2B2426706F3D313326736E3D592673743D4D414E5F504152545F4E554D4245522677633D424F5448267573743D50534D4E3452332D3330504C267374613D50534D4E3452333330504C26

I'm running a 250W light globe for a test load and with a tiny heat sink the mosfets remain about 5 degrees above ambient. I ran it for a while with no heat sink and the 50 Hz mosfets did not get above room temperature. The 23 KHz ones on the other hand heated up quite quickly as expected.

Next I have to get all the arduino stuff soldered up along with the current sensing and fan control to make sure it all works. After that I'll make up the bus bars that are meant to run along the outside and screw in through the five holes along the boards edge. These will carry the high current AC to the transformer primary. I think this board will be good for about 1.5 KW max continuous in a 12V configuration. The current is huge at such low voltages. The good thing about this design is I can just extend the board longways adding mosfets.

The only problem I have now is the only transformer I have is a tiny 200VA one. I can either try and source a second hand one locally and rewind or be lazy and get one made in china. I got a quote some time ago for a 2000VA to be wound and it was about 450 AUD delivered which isn't too bad. The primary was solid flat copper too. Half of that cost was delivery too lol.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on April 26, 2016, 07:01:59 AM
Nice work Antman


Billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on April 28, 2016, 06:19:47 AM
Thanks Billy

Another update

Iv'e done a little bit of testing albeit limited because I only have a 200VA transformer. I was lucky enough to grab the thermal camera from work to see whats going on. Because I only had the boards made with 1 oz copper and I don't have any bus bars in place most of the current is focusing right at the center of the board.

All of the photos were taken at 26 amps of input current to the center two terminals. Once power input is spread across the 3 inputs and a solid bus bar is screwed into place on the output i'm certain the current and heat spread will be much better. I did place a tiny fan on it later and the hot spots went down to about 5 degrees above ambient.

With 2 oz copper and output bus bars in place I think 125 amps would be an acceptable limit. I'd love to do 4 oz copper but the price is 10 times more and just not worth it
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on April 28, 2016, 06:37:06 AM
Also got a chance to get the arduino portion up and running with a very simple program.

So far I can read the thermocouple and vary a PWM to the fan depending on how hot the unit is. The fan ramps up nicely depending on temperature which will be great to keep it nice and quiet. In the future I'd like to have the fan also react to load so the fan can ramp up before the heat saturates the toroidal.

Iv'e got it shutting down the EG8010 too through the temp feedback pin if an over temperature event is reached. This will also be used for over / under voltage and over current protection. It works very well this way because it is an instant shutdown and an instant start up. The soft start function can be used also with just a change of jumper on the EGS002.

The next revision i'll have to put in an extra thermocouple so there can be one for the board and one for the transformer.

This weekend I'll work on the programming but i'm more of a hardware person so we'll see how that goes ;)

Made a short video to show it off...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ookKNIobnk4
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 28, 2016, 03:38:57 PM
nice to see it running Antman

will be interesting how much current you can push through it safely in the finish.

125amps is plenty for 48v use..... be a very good outcome if you can achieve this easily.

............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frwainscott on April 28, 2016, 11:12:37 PM
Antman,

Impressive... Did you cut the  393 chip off of the 002 board or is it still working?

Also... I think that's the way to go with the board,fets & heatsink. Like the one Oz had showed running, makes it possible to mount in A multitude of scenarios. Makes for a much cleaner package.

Cudos to both you and Oz.... :-)

Frank.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on April 28, 2016, 11:44:04 PM
Thanks Frank and OZ

I think I like the layout but I just have to confirm it with testing to make sure it's solid.

The 393 chip is still in place and the EGS002 remains unchanged. The current feedback pin which is the problem is grounded in my design so is taken out of the equation all together.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on April 30, 2016, 05:23:51 AM
Oztules,
 just wondering if it would take much to change a 24 volt pj controll card to 48 volts, or should I just make one of yours.

Thanks,
Billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 30, 2016, 07:35:20 AM
The pj card is complex, and I don't know what the real differences are.... maybe just make a 002 or 8010 device , it works every bit as well... probably cooler from what I have found.

..............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on April 30, 2016, 04:24:18 PM
ok Oztules,

thanks again, I'll make your latest control card.

oh by the way great work your doing.

Billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on May 04, 2016, 02:57:50 PM
Hi Oztules,

Its a stupid question from me, .....

Have you done a pin for pin connection from your latest 8010 control Board to the PJ Board.?

Thanks.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 04, 2016, 03:46:29 PM
Yes, pin compatible.
How they coming along?

.......oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on May 04, 2016, 04:38:17 PM
Thank you very much.

Yes both boards done, here's the Power Board.......

Putting it all together now.... for the BigOzInverter, then we will see....... gulp!.

I do not like spade connectors on the control board at 10mm/2, but another insulated box with the CT sense coil and  two bolt and eye connections seems a bit OTT. So thinking about the secondary output cabling if I can feed back to the control card at my EMC Filter assembly unit, where the two Secondary cable would have its first connections, ? I would use 10mm/2 cable. Could put sense coil on the secondary before the EMC filter.

The control board is just single sided with a few top jumpers. Those SMD connections need a steady iron, by the 3rd chip/ card I had it sorted.

Just got a batch of 30off  8010's with the HT1536.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on May 04, 2016, 04:48:36 PM
...and

Note.... the present PJ board has the long 48v + heat sink connecting directly to the underside copper. I have left mine as was using the 12 FET centre legs. ?
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 04, 2016, 06:28:09 PM
The 12 fet legs will do the job, but no crime in using the 4 mounting bolts as well....may take some of the pressure off the legs.

No current need go to the control card now we use the CT coil. leads can be as long as you need to get to where the power leads are.... we need only 240v for correction, and the feedback from the CT coil at the control card.. spade connectors are way over the top in this case, but convenient.

Yes, the first few 8010 were best not seen by the populace, but after that it became simple.

Do you have the control card as yet ( pic?)

Main boards are better than the original by a wide margin... I always hated the close proximity of the lands with the fet legs.. and all other inter track spacings for that matter.... all too cosy for my liking.... at least you have decent spacing.
Also like the way you have spread the pin area with solder to get more power over a wider area before getting lost in the vast area copper.

............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on May 05, 2016, 03:17:57 AM
Thanks for reassurance on the AC side.

I will amend the Power boards for that extra connection on the base of the 48v + heat sink, as you say it won't hurt.

The OzControl board, pretty much like yours, but here I have altered the size to take suitable mounting positions on the Power Board Heat sinks.

 I have beefed up all copper runs, because I will also supply the masks for Home made PCB's and drilling holes with the aid of a template gives a bit of leeway for the skill of the driller.
And your phrase, "there was a fracture in one of the copper thin trace" or something similar?
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on May 05, 2016, 03:27:33 AM
and.....

Again its keeping things real simple and yet robust, so folk anywhere in the World can follow and get a result.

The drill mask is also helpful in drilling the Heat Sinks. The cable mounts are threaded 6mm dia, with all other mounting holes at threaded 3mm dia.

The FET legs are 18mm from PCB to mounting hole, so gentle bends are easy and the legs not to long.

Rubber strips, from 1.05mm thick from a rubber Pond Liner offcuts, for the heat sinks insulation. 
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on May 05, 2016, 09:27:50 AM
Great work clockman,

 could you post a close up of Ozs control card?

Thanks

Billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 06, 2016, 01:03:45 PM
Clockman, I didn't see this for some reason
http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php?topic=1116.msg11784#msg11784
Note: the 7812 and the 7805 are actually tip35c transistors.
I had left the original part numbers there, when I redesigned the board, but did not change the part numbers ( as they are basically useless for my purposes in testing.. it is all pretty fluid)

It does not affect the board obviously, but if you build it using those  (7812, and 05 regulator )parts....... you will have problems... ie no power and dead regulators.

I think thats it.... you can send me a card and I will test it if you like :)

The pdf had it correct and the BOM (http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1116.105.html)

[attachimg=1]

........oztules

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on May 06, 2016, 01:34:39 PM
Yes got it, I did wonder what the 13v and 5.6v Zenners were doing, and no normal standard layout for the Voltage regulators that I normally do.   Now I understand that you are using TIP35c NPN transistors.

Something like this?
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STMICROELECTRONICS-TIP35C-TRANSISTOR-NPN-100V-25A-TO247-/351424177631?hash=item51d28365df:g:CIQAAOxysE5Sa77H.

2 Power and 2 Control cards on there way to you.
PS you might have to bend the legs of the TIP35c a little to get them in the T022 size holes.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 06, 2016, 01:42:04 PM
Can't wait.....

Yes they are the ones, but I usually only pay about 80 cents/piece ( AUD)...

...........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on May 06, 2016, 01:54:47 PM
Here is the OzControl Board.

I only had a few made as I thought this board might need amending here and there, plus I see some doubling up on the silk screen, and the components & values are not particular clear with this PCB Target software, so I will probably do a proper silk screen for this Control card when we are happy, so "Its painting by numbers".

I see that the Power board silk screen wants a few bits of text moving slightly the Dimensions have been solder masked out in a couple of places, whoops!
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 06, 2016, 04:30:52 PM
Clockman, only things I can really pick is that....
 
1. Holes for mounting should not have any copper under or around them... so it can have solid studs instead of plastic stands.... ie if someone was not aware, they could use steel screws and stand off or brass etc, and short the whole thing out inadvertently... design the thing idiot proof so the heatsinks cannot interfere with the board.

2. Those trim pots are not generally available here, but seem prevalent in Europe... so make the holes for both types.... ie the cheap chinese ones with .2" hole spacing, and the Euro types as you have.

3. make sure the hole size fits the tip35c... looks small, may need slightly bigger hole for easy removal if necessary, or even wangling it in initially.... would not hurt to be as big as the trim pot holes.... and make the zener holes slightly oversize, they may need replacement if anything goes wrong.

Thats it... can't wait to hook her up.

................oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on May 06, 2016, 04:51:19 PM
thanks Clockman,


billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on May 07, 2016, 02:50:02 AM
Yes, will do oztules.

I forgot about the OzControl PCB mounting holes, I tend to use those Insultated Bakelite, 3mm threaded copper inserts stand offs, my old stock. But yes for future boards will amend.

Trim pots, again its what I have in stock, 30 odd years old, sadly just got some new, and they are .2" and .2" spacing. Will amend the board with an extra mounting hole.

Yes, will amend for the TIP35c fitting holes.
Zenner Holes I will enlarge, at present they are for the 1.3w.

I note you are using some blue coloured Caps, tight against the driver chips, they are listed as 104's. I was going to use my normal ceramic disc types?.... Okay?

Thanks again.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on May 08, 2016, 01:15:19 AM
Hey Guys just thought I'd give an update on mine as I've done a bit of work.

The board handles 50 amps easily without cooling and with a fan blowing over it the board sits a few degrees over room temperature. With 2 OZ copper instead of 1 OZ 125 amps would be easily achievable. I'm also only running 12 mosfet's at the moment instead of 20.

I'm still not completely happy with the design since I don't like things sitting on their limit so I am going to re design it one last time with 12 x 12mm aluminium as bus bars. These will be screwed in through the bottom and will be used to clamp the mosfet's to the heat sink underneath. I will be able to tap M8 holes in the bus bars to attach transformer leads and DC in with proper lugs. At 144 square mm the bus bars will handle a few hundred amps easily ;D It'll be very compact too at 200 x 100 x 65 mm including the heat sink :D

I also want to add another temperature probe for the transformer.

I've ordered these heatsinks for the bottom. I built the board the same size on purpose.
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-2pcs-200x100x18mm-Large-Black-Anodized-Aluminum-Heatsink-Cooler-For-LED-Cooling/32536868358.html

I'm going to order one of these transformers this week so I can do some higher power testing
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10000w-transformer-for-10000w-LF-PSW-power-inverter-dc-12-ac240v-AS2-1-/262419278407?hash=item3d19686a47:g:6NcAAOSw2GlXJ~sF

I may need to send a board to someone on here to test a high power 48V system. Oztules you would be a pretty good candidate!

Heres a short video and a pic of the new revision

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtmYnbtcPVg&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 08, 2016, 03:39:13 AM
Oztules would be a happy candidate..... but, I fear the buck converter will need to be replaced with a different unit.......

I had not looked at youtube for these things, but there are a lot of 002 units out there.... all very small, but out there anyway.

Not too many folks are aiming for house size units, all are little aux units...... we are doing the unthinkable.. running houses on home brew... and then turning on  everything at once including kettles and hot water units just to load it up.....pretty cool now I think about it. Most  commercial units won't go that far, so we are really competing with the real power inverters.... and not looking too shabby either.

and doing it for pennies really..... amazing stuff.


Keep at it, your fabrication is very professional....


.................oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on May 08, 2016, 06:11:51 AM
Yes oz it's quite amazing what a bunch of backyard hobbyists can achieve these days with the Internet. My latest inverter cobbled together with a tiny 200va transformer can start loads my $600 inverter won't. Also with testing its more efficient too.

You're right with the buck converter. It's the last weak. I need to design my own but I'm just too lazy.

I'll keep you posted
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Phred on May 08, 2016, 09:28:32 AM
I am going to re design it one last time with 12 x 12mm aluminium as bus bars. These will be screwed in through the bottom and will be used to clamp the mosfet's to the heat sink underneath.
Relying on Al for heat sink is one thing but for buss bars it is another. The danger will be electrolysis / corrosion between Cu the Al over time.  The idea of not relying on a fan for cooling is a brilliant goal ..........fans behave like vacuum cleaners sucking up dust and the inverter ends up as a bag full of dust.
Guys keep up the good work
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 08, 2016, 04:08:36 PM
hmmm yet another cunning idea I see you have.

Insulated from the heat sink, and still get current carrier.... worth a try.

Phred, not sure the electrolysis is the problem here...  There are 24 fets in the PJ with their copper heat tabs directly bolted to the AL sinks... with steel /zinc screws... no signs of decay after many years.

..............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Phred on May 08, 2016, 05:25:17 PM

Phred, not sure the electrolysis is the problem here...  There are 24 fets in the PJ with their copper heat tabs directly bolted to the AL sinks... with steel /zinc screws... no signs of decay after many years.

..............oztules
Had direct experience with motor cycles with Al engines bolted together with gal fasteners After few years the bolts threads suffered corrosion because of electrolysis. Even SS fasteners on solar panel frames is not recommended. It's different with the transistors on the heat sinks they are generally anodized. I have seen lead shims used to give better metal to metal contact to enhance heat transfer. It isn't that more expensive to use Cu buss bar (HB) with Cu or brass fasteners.     
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on May 08, 2016, 05:29:08 PM
Thanks oz. I think it'll work out quite well.

As for the electrolysis I have thought about it. The aluminium will be screwed in with stainless steel screws so there shouldn't be a reaction there. The pads around the screws do not have any bare copper either. They are hot air solder levelled so a coating of solder is over them. I also have the option of immersion gold finish which is designed to stop oxidisation. I'm not sure which option would be better. Does anyone have any thoughts?
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 08, 2016, 05:46:33 PM
I don't think it matters much at all, without an electrolyte , there is very little chance of having free ion carriers... as there is no water or moisture available, I just don't see it.

Once you add water, it is a problem, and salt water is a killer.... but dry... I don't think so



............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: rossw on May 08, 2016, 05:47:16 PM
I'm not sure which option would be better. Does anyone have any thoughts?

HASL is inexpensive, and ok for a short period of time, but it does oxidise up reasonably quickly. Soon takes on that "dull" look.
ENIG isn't much more expensive and seems to last a very long time. It is only a thin coating, not terribly resiliant, but nicely protected. Certainly remains nice to solder to for a long time. Has almost no "give" like HASL does though, so not sure how its heat transfer would be by comparison.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on May 08, 2016, 08:17:59 PM
Thanks for the input Ross.

I thought to use brass but it's a pretty terrible conductor. Aluminium is good because it's cheap, readily available and easy to work with. If I made a production version I'd just get copper bars cut to shape with all the holes tapped in. I'll more than likely conformal coat the board too.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on May 09, 2016, 06:23:02 PM
I've done some more testing and programming on the Arduino portion of the board.

Things i've got going now are...

Thermal shutdown
Thermal based ramping fan control
Fan control based on input current
Input current display
Input voltage display
Input wattage display
3 second overload shutdown current limit
1 second overload shutdown current limit

Just need to add under and over voltage protection now and an extra thermocouple input. Its really starting to come along now ;D

I've ordered a PJ toroidal from Ebay which i should get next week hopefully. Then I can test some high power levels and really give it a run for its money. Does anybody know where I can get a suitable E-core for the idle current reduction?

Here is a short vid showing the functions
https://youtu.be/SLB4STRgvA4

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frackers on May 09, 2016, 08:23:31 PM
Good work there. I have all the bits for my next build and now the walnut harvest has finished I'll have to get started!!

A few questions

The reason I ask is that I've used the 1-wire DS2438 and DS18B20 for the measurement tasks in all my charge control devices so far and once you have been bitten by the 1-wire bug its so simple to add sensors!!
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on May 09, 2016, 08:55:43 PM
Hey Frackers

I'm using a 1mv per amp shunt at the moment. This goes to a INA271 high side current amplifier on my power board. There is a screw terminal for connecting the kelvin sense wires from the shunt.

The input voltage is measured by the Arduino through a 10K 1K voltage divider on the power board. It's smoothed by a capacitor to cancel out all the high speed switching fluctuations.

LCD is just hooked up with a ribbon cable. I have no idea how to program I2C LCD's and there is heaps of free pins on the micro anyway.

Talking to sensors through I2C is pretty awesome and I wish I knew more about programming. Im more of a hardware guy. Do you have much programming experience?
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frackers on May 09, 2016, 09:10:31 PM
Talking to sensors through I2C is pretty awesome and I wish I knew more about programming. Im more of a hardware guy. Do you have much programming experience?

Hmmm - I wrote my first software about 48 years ago. It was on punched card and the done at the local college and was very very simple. I've been earning a living at it for the last 40 years though :)

Take a look at https://github.com/g8ecj/turbine (https://github.com/g8ecj/turbine). It may look complex but it has a lot of configuration options, SDcard logging etc. The basics in 'measure' and 'control' should be straight forward to read, the user interface in 'ui' is perhaps tricky to read but it is designed to be a very flexible template for all my "lunchbox electronics" projects. It uses lots of library functions from the BeRTOS system, that I use in preference to the Arduino libraries.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on May 09, 2016, 10:43:03 PM
Nice one Frackers. I'll have a good look at it when I get home to my PC.

So does that mean you're the guy that can help with the software on my next project which is a maximum power point tracker? I've already got the hardware designed and works well on a simple Arduino program. Only problem is the bad voltage regulation since I'm limited by the 8bit pwm.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frackers on May 10, 2016, 07:29:37 AM
Only problem is the bad voltage regulation since I'm limited by the 8bit pwm.
If you're using an AVR mega328p - Arduino Nano type, then use timer 1 as its 16 bit and even in Fast PWM mode 7 it uses 10 bits and mode 14 I recall is 15 bits.

I must admit that a lot of my project are now moving over to the stm32 series with the 72MHz clocked ARM core. The f103 boards can be had for US$2 or less and have up to 6 compare units on some timers with programmable dead time and complementary outputs to do full bridge operation. Pretty easy to use as the BeRTOS and Arduino libraries now support them or you can use the ST Micro supplied HAL and startup code generated from the stm32cubemx 'wizard'. What I'm enjoying is the debug tool only costs another US$3 and allows breakpoints, tracing etc from a full GUI such as Eclipse (with the sw4stm32 plugin).
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on May 11, 2016, 04:39:39 AM
Hey Frackers

The problem is I need a 60 Khz PWM and the Arduino doesnt have the power to do it without dropping the resolution. Those STM32 boards are awesome and that chip is so powerful compared to the Arduino. Ill order a few tonight:)
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on May 11, 2016, 06:53:41 AM
Hey Oztules,
Just woundering what your currently using to heat your water for showers and dishes, sorry a little off topic.


Thx

billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on May 11, 2016, 01:58:34 PM
Here's the oz controll pcb I did on my 5x10 CNC.


Billy


Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 11, 2016, 04:38:17 PM
Amazing router work there... never seen a routed board before. Thanks for that

I use a normal 130ltr hot water unit for water heating. It is time clocked to come on at 10am, and clock drops out at 4pm.... usually runs for 2 hours in the am, and usually 30 mins top up in the afternoon before the timer shuts down....basically the same as the original night rate hot water heaters did... but opposite times of the day.

It is heavily insulated beyond the original urethane stuff it has originally.... They loose a massive amount of heat in their original guise.

On another place that has a proper commercial inverter ( victron thing ) he does not have the power that I have in my inverters, so we put a capacitor in series with the line voltage, that cuts his element power from 2500w down to only 1000w or so ( about 100 to 150uf or so from memory). This stops his victron from having a fit, and lets his batteries see a lower amp drain........ so the Peukert effect is better for him too..... just another over priced toy those victron things.... for all the money he spent on the victron, he cant start a 3hp motor .... just silly.

As expected the VA is high on the AC side, and would indicate that you are wasting power.... but the battery drain is much lower, and  reflects the 1000w only, as most of the VA is out of phase ( voltage and current ), so the 1500w lost as a vector thing, not as a real loss.... ( wattless current).... better than using triac switching to achieve the same thing.... that would bother the inverter greatly.



.................oztules

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on May 12, 2016, 06:48:59 AM
thanks Oztules,

this board is inverted so i have to make it the right way, oh well it was just a test anyways.

As per your water heater,  is that not going to kill your batteries? If I run mine it really pulls the amps , and I only have it set at 92, and using one of your inverter at 24 volts , maybe I should try that capacitor.

Billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on May 12, 2016, 07:21:44 AM
Some extra mosfets and a heatsink arrived today so I put them together for testing.

The heatsink is a little undersized I think but it should do the job with fan cooling. From my testing so far most of the heat is lost in the transformer anyway. At 45 amps the heatsink goes to around 15 degrees above ambient without fan cooling. The PCB warms up a bit since its only 1 oz copper.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 12, 2016, 06:13:59 PM
Is that neat or what..... 8)

Yes it is easier to keep the fets cool than a smaller transformer.

Interesting to push it hard to see how the thermal part works... but you will need a much bigger transformer to do that.

Billy..... 24v system will need capacitors to bring your current back to less than solar input. You would need 100amps to run 2400watt elements..... thats a big ask for solar unless you run lots like I do.

Get some motor run capacitors, and see what value works for you .... depends on how much water and how fast you need to heat it. If you spread your say 2hrs@2400w into say 8 hrs@600w as an example, you may well charge your batts and run the HW at the same time most days.... panel size dependent.

Mine runs@ 2400w for about 2hrs, but thats only 50 amps/50 volts, and the panels will pull over 100amps easily during the 10am-12am periods as a generality.... some days it is hard to keep level, and some you don't even get that in that time period, but over the day it always seems to fill the bank, and run the house and HW system...8-10kw of solar ( depends if I run part of  the gird tie or not into it as  well ).


..................oztules

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Phred on May 12, 2016, 07:55:56 PM
looks great! Like method of the heat sink mounting the fins can protrude to another cavity for cooling with a fan and avoiding dust collection on the electronics .
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on May 13, 2016, 12:36:47 AM
Great idea Phred. Never thought of it that way but I have seen grid tie inverters set up like that with a huge passive heat sink on the backside.

With my new design all that it will take to mount is 6 holes tapped into whatever you are mounting to and some thermal conductive insulating tape. Then you just screw into position using nylon screws to keep the bus bars insulated from the heat sink.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Phred on May 13, 2016, 09:43:24 AM
As`soon as I saw your board design  this is what went through my mind......seen too many PC power supplies being no more than vacuum dust collectors. The major problem with the inverters like Sunny Boy, Aerosharp, Aspire.... is the heat sink runs horizontally along the top they should be mounted vertical to take advantage of natural convection. I have 2 dead Aerosharp inverters a 1.5 & a 2 kw on hand that can resurrect from the dead as inverters. 
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on May 16, 2016, 05:13:27 AM
The New Boards.

The Board Unit is physical strong, compact, easy to get at stuff, and I have used parts/components that are easily obtainable and easy to source.

That's the single side OzControl board which I give the Etch masks in my Book, but there is now a Mk6 double sided board that is slightly shorter in length.

When Mounted vertically the unit is easily kept cool, I use the OzCooling circuit, is just right.

According to the French Post Office my New PCB’s have been in Australia for the week, so hopefully you should get them soon ………………..
‘Oztules’, the control card is the basic, besides the obvious  amendments, the 16 pin header is slightly wide by one pin, so you will need to angle them for the 8010 card when soldering up, sorry about that, but I could have sworn I double, quadrupled checked.     I have all amended now… Thanks.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 16, 2016, 05:16:50 AM
Well the weather down in the roaring forties has been roaring with gale force winds for weeks really... mail has got through most times, but your boards have not surfaced yet... and looking forward to see what they are like in the flesh.

Have you turned it on yet?????

You will find it easier and cleaner to use 10 pin sockets on the driver output instead of hard wiring the 10 pin lead into the board.... and less chance for mistakes.

My first 32 pin header spacing was wrong by one too... because I had no idea of the spacing on the cards coming from China... you may have copied that from my first pattern.... makes little difference as you have found.

Gee it does look the goods from here.


..........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on May 16, 2016, 06:58:07 AM
Excellent work Clockman.


Billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on May 17, 2016, 12:12:26 AM
Nice work Clockman

Easily repairable in the field and looks very neat compared to the original PJ driver board :)
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on May 17, 2016, 01:47:14 AM
Thanks Billy, thanks Antman.

'Oztules' ..... Yes that ribbon cable and connections worries me...... but I have used a thick core ribbon cable, supported with epoxy on the board. But then the normal IDC clamp end for the female socket needs/is hand soldered cable to connector. Yes okay for me but others?

I know its picky, but, Would a normal IDC cable be okay,? ... scary if we have a weak point on those IDC connections.

Running it, ....... still putting together my BigOzInverter toroid etc, other Inverters doing there job, Mrs banned me from messing with them as they work so beautifully.
Sadly this time of year things here get very busy, as the weather is getting better, although a frost this morning hopefully the last. So switch on with this baby might be a few weeks yet.

Steady now!, serious grovelling approaching! ......   Give those boards a good test please, if you would.  I think you have more stuff, and importantly a man of your experience knows more about this than anyone
 anywhere. Much appreciated.
Thank you.

My new Mk6 OzControl board, its a simple double sided, ready for the manufacture, with the "painting by numbers". Note, for single side board replace the Blue tracks with 0r/jumpers/links.

I have kept it simple, a few mods but in general as 'oztules' circuit. It needs to have the 86mm width, as it becomes part of the overall Inverter PCB's structure. 

 
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 17, 2016, 03:49:15 AM
Still not here...... dammit....

There are hundreds of millions of computers around the world running normal ribbons for many years... never heard of them being a cause of failure... so I guess tried and proven. Makes it hours simpler to construct the system, as the cable can take a long time to do manually, when it takes seconds to make the ribbon as  it was intended.... and virtually idiot proof in my estimation.

Would a normal IDC cable be okay,?... yes I reckon so.


..............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: lighthunter on May 17, 2016, 08:26:29 PM
Quote
"l put a capacitor in series with the line voltage, that cuts his element power from 2500w down to only 1000w"

Absolutely brilliant Oztules, I have 3 different 240v heating elements i use on 120 to select the loading i want. Obviously i am doing it the hard way ::)

Bless you!

LH
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on May 18, 2016, 06:57:02 AM
Lighthunter,

what size cap did you use?, oztules told me to do this as well but wasn't sure of what size , I have a 25uf motor run cap but haven't had time to test it yet.


Thx

Billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 18, 2016, 06:39:13 PM
25uf@240v system is about 90w driving 2400 watt element

55uf@240v system is about 350w driving 2400 watt element

110uf@240 system is about 950w driving 2400 watt element

At 110v I have no idea.

..............oztules


Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on May 19, 2016, 06:58:43 AM
thanks for that Oztules,

My tank is split phase , so one element is 120v , 2250 watts ea.

Billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: johna on May 19, 2016, 05:25:36 PM
ClockmanFrance
What are your plans for these boards. are you going to sell them. or put them up as a kit, or a complete board. i would not mind getting a couple as kits to put together myself if thats the way you are going.(i am to lazy to make my own circuit boards). When i get hold of a toroid to re wire that would be enough.
oztules
I live just south of you and the wind we have been getting is wow-full and out of season. we have never had autumn wind before. i have been expecting some of my panels on the trackers to be destroyed when i get up in the morning, but so far so good.
john
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 19, 2016, 05:58:23 PM
Johna
Where in Tas are you?

Been blowing fitfully here for days at a time...... no place for trackers. The big ones down at the airport have suffered from what I hear.

Typical of the RE industry really, probably 12000 dollar trackers, holding 3kw ( 1800 dollars ) of solar panels each... sheer genius in a cloudy and windy  region.


............oztules

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on May 20, 2016, 02:21:25 AM
Hi johna,

Maybe a kit of parts, "basic bag of bits" in the next year or so, get my boys onto it, my eldest, 16, shows interest, my 13 year old just asks, "is there an App for that". I am just a Taxi for the 9 year old. !

The book and the supplement gives lists of all the components necessary and Links to suppliers where appropriate.

Yes, to supply the boards with the book seems logical.
 The Power Board and the OzControl Board will be available as an additional option to the book, but I am not sure of the number of boards to stock, as the big A4 size boards are thick copper and therefore quite expensive.

I think its important to get the book as this gives the Toroid build, Oztules working/real calculations for different size toroid cores, ancillary circuits, cooling and the important construction tips.

Hopefully available soon, few weeks, PCB preliminary testing and modifying still on going.

 
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 20, 2016, 05:55:55 AM
"Does anybody know where I can get a suitable E-core for the idle current reduction?"

This is a bit late, but I just discovered the cheapest place in the world I have found for these is right here in Aust... from RS components, and element 14 not far behind them.

 http://au.rs-online.com/web/p/transformer-ferrite-cores/6479351/

$22/set free shipping

amazing stuff...


Still no boards yet... backlog of mail due to the rotten weather over the last few weeks I think.... the little planes cant fly in the 100k winds very well.

...............oztules

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: johna on May 20, 2016, 04:56:12 PM
 oztules
Up in the hills at st Marys. in a valley ,normally i hear the wind roaring on the hill tops, but its been so windy it shoots down the valley and rocks the panels , i need the positioners as i am limited to how much sun i get ,especially this time of year.I have seen the panels at Flinders airport and i always thought that its a bit to windy there. its exposed to the westerlies. same in king island.( which are rusting away). worked for the Hydro on both islands, for there size and the expense of them they are pretty pathetic.
john
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on May 21, 2016, 12:29:58 AM
"Does anybody know where I can get a suitable E-core for the idle current reduction?"

This is a bit late, but I just discovered the cheapest place in the world I have found for these is right here in Aust... from RS components, and element 14 not far behind them.

 http://au.rs-online.com/web/p/transformer-ferrite-cores/6479351/

$22/set free shipping

amazing stuff...


that's where i got mine form. I would have said something but i thought you guys were  wise to it, sorry

Cheers
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: dochubert on May 21, 2016, 08:02:20 PM
Hope this isn't a stupid question;
I don't remember seeing any discussion of frequency selection on the 8010 board. Read thru the thread twice but maybe missed it.  Are you building for 60hz or 50hz?  Or is it switchable?
Not sure which freq you guys use but I need 60hz

Thanks
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 21, 2016, 09:29:27 PM
If you download the eg8010 data sheet, you will see that pins 18 and 19 control the frequ.

50hz with both pins grounded,
60 hz with only 18 grounded and 19 high (5v)
variable to 100hz with 18 high(5v) and 19 grounded
variable to 400hz with both  high (5v)

Thats plenty of choice for you... :)

...........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on May 21, 2016, 11:37:34 PM
Oztules thanks for the link to the E-cores. I need to order some more parts from RS this week so i'll grab a few of them too. Love the free delivery...

Dochubert on the EGS002 boards it's as simple as changing two jumpers on the board.

I've redesigned my whole board to include bus bars and upped the copper to 2 oz to handle the higher current. Also I've added a second thermocouple to measure transformer temperature.

The dodgy chinese buck converter was replaced with one of my own design based around the LM5008. It's rated to 95V input and 350 ma output which is more than enough to run all of the controls and a 12V fan up to 200 ma.

The AC filtering capacitor is now on the board to which will clean up the whole installation. Only power in, current sense from the shunt, fan leads, primary to the transformer and secondary from the transformer will be required to make a full working inverter.

I've included outputs from the Arduino too so an external 5v relay module can be used to control anything else such as loads or extra fans. It could be used to start a generator when voltage drops below a certain level or even turn on dump loads when your batteries reach float voltage. The possibilities are endless since we are reading all of the feedback from the inverter. The serial pins are broken out too so wireless telemetry can be used to monitor the unit from far away. I've seen people use simple cheap wireless links and also WIFI modules such as the ESP8266 to broadcast a simple web server.

Boards are in the mail now so cant wait to get them and test it out ;D
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 22, 2016, 01:41:54 AM
Thats a serious bit of kit there Antman.... keen to see the results... also keen to see how it does @50v

...oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on May 22, 2016, 01:47:30 AM
Thanks Oz ;)

Put a huge amount of hours into this one but it'll be worth it in the end. I put the updated buck converter in there to work with systems like yours that go past 60V. Good for up to 95V

 I might have to pay someone to fix up the Arduino code. Mine works but it's pretty basic. The sky is the limit with Arduino...
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frackers on May 22, 2016, 04:36:13 PM
I might have to pay someone to fix up the Arduino code. Mine works but it's pretty basic. The sky is the limit with Arduino...

If you can put together a requirements specification I'd be interested in having a look - most of my stuff is GPL-V2 like my wind turbine controller so rather than pay I'd prefer to share.
Only got a couple of weeks before I'm tied up for 4-5 weeks with another project but I can give you an idea on what is possible.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on May 23, 2016, 01:52:40 AM
Thanks Frackers. I'll draft something up in the next couple of days. I've got limited time too as I'm going overseas for 5 weeks in a month.

I received a nice delivery today of a PJ transformer and my newest revision of boards. The transfomer is pretty impressive for $250 express delivered. My initial thoughts are that it could handle 2 KW easily and bursts of double that @ 12V. I loaded it up with a 1000W heater and it barely warmed up after 10 mins. Efficiency came in around 91% which I was impressed with. My commercially made powertech one is lucky to hit 89% in perfect conditions.

Idle current was 3.5 amps without an inductor. After 1 turn on a large blue toroid that I had lying around it dropped to 800ma @ 13.28V. 10.6 watts idle current is amazing for an inverter that can handle 2KW continuous.

Next mission is to assemble the newest revision and test with all the bus bars in place. Eficciency should rise a little since there is a bit of power loss in the old boards weak 1oz copper. The new bus bars are 144 sq mm of aluminium so no voltage drop there ;)
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: peter on May 25, 2016, 03:27:41 AM
The board arrived in Melbourne about 3 1/2 weeks after ordering
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-1pcs-1800W-5500W-DC12V-24V-36V-48V-to-AC-220V-pure-sine-inverter-board/32637730780.html?spm=2114.30010308.3.44.ut8jCV&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_9,searchweb201602_5_10017_10005_10006_10034_10021_507_10022_508_10020_10018_10019,searchweb201603_6&btsid=d7e2931a-fdd2-404a-ab4a-c692c960a062 (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-1pcs-1800W-5500W-DC12V-24V-36V-48V-to-AC-220V-pure-sine-inverter-board/32637730780.html?spm=2114.30010308.3.44.ut8jCV&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_9,searchweb201602_5_10017_10005_10006_10034_10021_507_10022_508_10020_10018_10019,searchweb201603_6&btsid=d7e2931a-fdd2-404a-ab4a-c692c960a062)
and see the photos that show the condition out of the box and 2x bubble wrap. It copped a few whacks in transit.

I hooked it up to the 1.5kW Aerosharp transformer with a nominal 20 turns primary.
When a 145uH choke is inserted in series with the torriod primary, I get a nice 0.3A idle current at 26V DC supply.
I have not tested it at any sort of high current yet. I need to get suitable primary cable first.
The extra wire coming out of the EG002 board goes to C24 on the IFB input to the EG8010.
This wire seems to be driven via a few inputs which are combined via a relay:
- too low input voltage
- too high input voltage
- too high current output
- too high current sourced from supply.
as sorted out by the LM324 opamp

When delivered, the board needed a bit of fiddling with the low voltage cutout trimpot for it to work. I can't make the high voltage cutoff work, nor the high current cutoff.
Maybe when I have a more realistic test scenario things will start to come together.

I have found it runs very nicely at the low power output of my test setup (only about 50VA into a halogen desk lamp).
The manufacturer (or reseller or whatever) supply a 5uF cap to place across the 240V secondary. I found this to be too large, drawing about 0.6A at 26 V input.
A 0.47uF makes it draw 0.3A

Interestingly (for me at least) I found I could use a salvaged choke from the 1.5kW Areosharp inverter, by unwinding about 1/2 turns from one side and using that as the
primary side 145uH choke to reduce the high frequency hash from the PWM. This, coupled with a 0.47uF 250V X2 cap on the secondary is all I need for a very clean sine wave output.

I chose 20 turns as a start point seeminly at random. I have a 0-40V 5A supply that I intended to use in initial testing.
This has been quite good when finding what voltage range the bourd can run.
The 1.5kW transformer is 0.7V RMS/turn, so the 20 turns = approx 14V RMS
This is about 20V peak and I would first think that all I need is supply 20V and it will run OK giving 240V RMS output.
In practice I found the lowest it would run is 23V and it runs quite fine all the way to 40V. This means the EG002 controller board can modulate the SPWM from 100% down to about 50% or less.

This testing now gives me a good idea of how many turns are needed for the primary when ensuring large margins of safety for low voltage dropout.

Onward and upward now. Time to get some decent 50A primary cable and hit it with a 1.5kW load when driven by a small 24V battery bank. Will it emit the magic smoke?
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 25, 2016, 05:15:53 AM
Well thats the first one in captivity, so I for one will be watching with interest.

The transformer is key to power handling, but so far the 002 has been very forgiving, so if it sags or clips, it should soldier on fairly well.... providing they dont stuff up the pulse trains when they over/under anything, and always soft start.

Clockmans board arrived today, and it is up and running, load testing tomorrow with results hopefully if not too busy.

....oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on May 25, 2016, 06:32:19 AM
Keep up the updates Peter. I'm interested to see how it performs.

I threw together my latest boards yesterday and gave it a quick run. Runs well without any heat sinking at all at about 500 watts but heats up quickly as expected with my 1000W load. The PJ transformer isn't the best ratio which I thought would be the case. It cant hold the voltage at 240V when the input voltage is under 12 volts. it's specified at 230V primary 8V secondary. it should really be 230V to 7V. At 220V it holds fine but I am thinking of rewinding the primary to make it run properly at 240V.

When I get the time I will mount the heatsink and hook it up to a large battery bank for testing.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 25, 2016, 10:13:12 AM
I had to remove a number of turns on the 24v 5kw PJ I converted for another person over here. It had an intermittent fault I could not bother to find so just stuck a 002 in there. The head room is limited in them compared to the pj controller.

It has been running for a number of months now without problems as a main inverter on a modest cottage.

Wondering how your going to mount the heat sinks now you have covered the access holes with the buss.


Looking good.

.......oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on May 25, 2016, 05:28:23 PM
Yep I think I'll have to remove a couple of turns or just rewind the primary with some 25mm flex that I have.

The heatsink will be fixed by screwing nylon insulating screws through the bus bar and the holes in the PCB into the heatsink. I use sticky insulating but thermally conductive tape too and once it sticks it'll never come off.

Thanks for the compliment
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on May 25, 2016, 09:20:49 PM
Howdey all,
Oz would there be any chance of getting a pdf of your fan controller and gti cutout boards. like the egs board in this thread?
i am ready to get going again now, i have a bit of spare time so i will update my thread as i go

Cheers,
            Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 25, 2016, 09:30:11 PM
Zogg, it is on here somewhere... but I can't find it easily.
I will find the original on one of my computers and post it/them.

............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on May 25, 2016, 10:38:13 PM
thanks mate you are a legend. i have been looking around on here for two days trying to find them lol.
all i could find were screenshots from your computer, the pdf's will make it much easier thank you

Cheers,
            Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frwainscott on May 25, 2016, 11:33:57 PM
Hey Dude...  This should be for the temp board

http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1044.0;attach=4322;image

  Frank
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on May 26, 2016, 03:43:50 AM
thanks for that mate but i found that one. i'm chasing the pdf's so that i can use them to develop some kinsten board
thanks for looking though,

Cheers,
            Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: peter on May 26, 2016, 03:55:31 AM
Further info on the inverter board I bought
(see post http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1116.msg12138.html#msg12138)
The EGS002 board is configured to NOT soft start (JP6 is shorted) and the dead time is set to 500ns with JP3 and JP8 shorted as supplied
by the inverter board manufacturer.

I already had two EGS002 boards purchased from ebay 6 or 12 months ago. These 2 boards are identical in function.
I immediately swapped one of the ebay boards for that which came with the inverter board to see if I have 2 spares or not and it worked perfectly.
The ebay boards came with soft start enabled and some other dead time setting than 500ns.

The "standby switch" as shown on the aliexpress product page is in fact the inverter "on/off" switch. This is handy to have.
By the way, no instructions or documentation came with the inverter board. So I saved the aliexpress page to pdf.

I captured a couple of screens from the DSO when first switching on the inverter output with the soft start disabled.
(again using the 50VA desklamp load on the secondary)
These may help us understand why a soft start is to be preferred when driving a large toriod.
Look at the high voltage change rate - it must place large strains on the FETs when you attach a large load on the secondary and do a hard start.

Blue is secondary voltage (approx 240V RMS, using a high voltage differential probe)
Yellow is DC supply current, AC coupled
Purple is a gate drive for the PWM low leg (it needs to be referenced to the DC supply's 0 volts - only got one diff. probe alas)
Light Blue is primary current via a current transformer.

first shows a short period where I enabled the inverter output. Already the DC bus caps on the board were fully charged.
I think the DC input draws a large ripple content. Maybe in the finished project I might find some big-ass low ESR bulk caps to be placed just before the board's DC supply terminals. I recall reading how lead acid batteries do not like loads with large ripple content.

next is a close up of the PWM when switching off. It seems to me that there is some soft stop effect going on.

I now show the hard start up. I think this may be where we can easily blow these nice big FETs to tiny pieces if we are not careful.

Last is the entire event showing hard start, run under constant load and stop.

I intend to do a higher power test this weekend. I think I will change it to use a soft start from now on.
I hope this is interesting for you here. If not, tell me and I will just stick to the build of the inverter system.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 26, 2016, 04:25:06 AM
Thanks Pete.
I think I will stay with the soft start, as I know big torroids don't hard start. My big ones blow any fuse thrown at them.

Remember to make sure that the current shut down works without glitches, or a torroid will blow the fets away. I suspect they are using the bypass rather than the on board current shut down?

Keep posting... everything tells a story that may tie into something later... we never know what scrap of info completes a picture......eg today I rebuilt Clockmans  board again, as I used ceramic caps for the 10uf in the charge pump this time ( had plenty laying about).... but it distorts the wave form... needs to be electro.... who knew?.... so it is out there now if any one else is silly enough to use ceramic 10uf caps for that function.... took a long time to wake up that that was doing it too >:(

ok pdf for fan... I think this is the latest.... been a long time.... it's raining and I 'm not going out to the shed to check component values tonight... but that pattern should work.

[attachimg=1]

Ok ran the clockman units, worked perfectly once I replaced my stuff up caps...... busy, but ran at 2500w for 20 mins or so without fans or anythine else.... heat sinks stayed cold....  interesting. Voltage stayed at 237v unloaded, and 237v under 2500 watts.

Pulled on another 2000w, and the voltage dropped to about 127v. Have not had time to check why.... assume the new tranny has to many turns on the primary... will follow it up tomorrow. Cannot be anything else but run out of head room.... back to 2500w, and perfect 237v.... :D
EDIT see later post.... was a faulty meter! :(
Edit 2 no it wasn't. It needed a small 1w 240v:12v transformer for sensing the AC output, otherwise it found a earth return through the power system in the house to effectively make the voltage half what it should be... see later on.

Amazed at the 25w idle.... but a single stack tranny... which I don't normally do probably explains it.

Interested in changing the tranny tomorrow, fully expect 5kw easily, 3kw cont with this tranny..... ran cooler than expected... don't know why...maybe the 17C shed.

Here are the last known things that shut off the grid tie... I don't use them now, as the gti looks after itself in the end.

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]

And looking at the gti thing.... have no idea why  I made it like that... way over complicated for a simple voltage switch.... not sure what I was thinking of turning it into.... :o

There are some track changes but essential the same. The component values are pretty flexible, as you can see...... :-[

There will be better simpler ways to do it.


................oztules

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on May 26, 2016, 08:04:58 AM
thanks oz your the man, 8)
quick question. would there be any harm in me doing all 3 of these boards on the one sheet and mount it on the heat sinks as per standard
or would there be a problem with high freq switching in the circuits interfering with each other?

just thought it may be a way of cutting back on a little wiring, and keeping things a bit neater.

Cheers,
           Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 26, 2016, 11:32:48 AM
I can see no problem with that.... maybe go Antmans way and use a nano for everything?

....oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on May 26, 2016, 05:45:04 PM
looks good but i'm more of a hardware guy than a software guy.

Cheers,
           Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 27, 2016, 12:23:39 AM
Ok cleared up the fault with the voltage running amok... turns out it was the digital watt/voltage meter....
EDIT .. not I didn't see later posts >:(
Today tried to chase down the fault of the changing voltage.... I could not replicate it no matter how much load was applied... then the voltage meter up and died completely... so it looks like that was it.....

Some pics to conclude.
Firstly.... no load and voltage
[attachimg=1]

then 1500w load.....
[attachimg=2]

Then near 4kw of loads

[attachimg=3]

Driving this for while, heat sinks still cold, no cooling after 20 mins.... still less than skin temp.... damn impressive.... even with the ambient temp at only 16c... still very very good.

[attachimg=4]

So all seems to be fine.... spent a long time trying to fault it, but it would not replicate the single  fault I saw last night.


All seems well.


[attachimg=6]

................oztules

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on May 27, 2016, 02:22:48 AM
another quick one.
seeing as i am putting 3 board on one,
is there anywhere on the control board that i could pull a 12v source for the fans and controller from?  ???
could save me having the converter in there

Cheers,
            Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on May 27, 2016, 02:44:35 AM
just thought i would chuck up a copy of the 3 boards combined. probably no much use to anyone but you never know.
i turned out pretty much the same size as the standard pj control card.

Cheers,
            Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on May 27, 2016, 02:48:21 AM
Hi Oztules,

Good to see the OzControl Board in action, good Pics.

I have tided it some, and improved the silk screen, (now lots of info on the board for building) and scraped that original PDF on the board. I think it can stay a single sided board?, but as you say pilot holes in the copper mask help folk when they are drilling, so duly amended, silly me, Mrs says that I should get out more.
Not easy here in France at present as everyone, Power, Transport etc, is on strike and Petrol is difficult to get.

Interesting to read your comments on voltage stabilisation and how forgiving the board is, especially on the 10uf Ceramic Caps distortion.

Yes, I agree on the Nano thing, probably a 'Frackers' thing, we are not stuffed if we loose the 8010 chip, then a Nano could be re-configured.

I look forward to your comments on the New Power Board.

Dr Zogg,
I am a fail safe type of Guy. I kept my cooling circuit away from the Control and Power board, and gave it a regulated supply from the main Batteries,  that way if there was a problem with a fan failure or something gets hot, then the cooling circuit is not effected and carries on, and compensates the cooling with the other Fans.

I found with the OzInverter that the Toroid and Power Boards need different cooling, so I have 2 of OzCooling circuits, a double board. A Push & pull fan for the Power Boards and push pull for the Toroid and 2 temp sensors each.

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on May 27, 2016, 03:00:33 AM
ok then, if there is not 12v present on the control board there is no harm in running the converter.
i am just trying to tidy mine up a bit an limit the amount of sub assemblies i have in the box.
i am just glad that i have finished winding the transformers for now :o i can stop straining my arms and strain my brain instead lol

Cheers,
           Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 27, 2016, 03:29:07 AM
Yep the transformers test out your strength and stamina.

New power board awaits capacitors, and making heat sinks for it .... good looking strong board it is too.. pj should copy you.

The control works as expected... very well.... single sided is fine..... but must have holes on the pdf.

For the cost of a PJ you could buy 100 lifetimes of 8010's Probably a lot  better than nano to emulate it.

Zogg, If you used a tl494 instead of the 393, then you could use the dead time to limit the voltage to 12 from 60 easily enough... I may do one of them soon for that very reason... just vary the deadtime for whatever voltage you use.... basically uses the inductance of the motor as the inductor for a buck converter, and fiddle the pulse width for the speed proper.... so deadtime for speed max, and pwm for motor speed based on temp.

Then you could use the 12v on the control card as only milliamps are required for the tl494... battery  direct to the fan/s.



...............oztules





Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on May 28, 2016, 06:01:27 PM
Oztules,
 does any thing have to be changed when hooking your control board to a pj main board?

thx
Billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 28, 2016, 09:27:06 PM
Yes... you must replace the gate resistors with 4r7 ohms, and use a diode across then for faster turn off..... as in this:

[attachimg=1]

Other than this, nothing else need change.
If you don't change these, it will get very hot very quickly.

..............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on May 29, 2016, 04:58:41 AM
thx Oztules.

are those on the old boards, I have one of their new type with removable mosfet boards?

Billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 29, 2016, 07:30:48 AM
yes, I expect so.

I believe the new boards are surface mount... so easier to remove and replace.... and piggyback the diode.

................oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on May 29, 2016, 05:43:08 PM
Ok Oztules,

thanks again.

Billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: peter on May 29, 2016, 08:52:37 PM
Further info on the aliexpress inverter board.

It comes with hard start enabled by default. This was OK for me in testing
when the primary winding was using 16AWG garden lighting cable.
I wanted to test now with a bigger load, 500W. This means a proper winding.
I have on hand dual 6mm2 solar panel cable and so I wound 18 turns of this.
Now the DC resistance of the primary plus inductor came down to 0.024 ohms from
0.130 ohms as with the 16AWG cable.

This gave the inverter board a much stiffer load on start up. The hard start was too much now for the power supply.
Clearly it's time to use the soft start from now on.

18 turn primary was needed because I will be supplying power via 2 x 12V 100AH and wanted a bit of headroom.

I show (first 3) below the soft start and shut down waveforms with zero load in the first two DSO captures.
Right at the time the inverter is enabled there is a tiny high voltage transient
but it's not too much of a problem to my mind.
AC volts is blue, DC supply current yellow. Full scale current is +/- 2.5V = +/- 48 Amps
Pink is the enable input.

The inverter board has a LM324 4 way opamp providing 4 user settings to control the board.
One trimpot does the DC supply low voltage cut off. The output is sent into the on board relay
and then to the soft start function. The LV cut -off has hysteresis so with a setting of e.g. 21.4V cut off
it restarts at 24.7V. This seems reasonable.
The next trimpot is for DC supply high voltage cut off. I can see not use for it as built on this board.
I could not get it to function with DC supply voltages less than about 50V. It's useless.
Again it's output goes to the on board relay.
Third is AC current limit and it drives the on board relay, then soft start.

The forth trim pot drives the EGS002 IFB pin, via input from the DC supply current shunt sense.
This works but it is likely going to be a cause of blown mosfets. I triggered this by placing 12V
on the current sense opamp input and captured some resulting waveforms.
As a result of this work I plan to permanently disconnect the IFB signal from the inverter board
and instead route it's opamp output again to the relay (and soft start).

Note the high current pulse, extending for 5ms. This has maxed out the current sensor at 48 Amps.
During this test I had a small halogen lamp as a 240V load.
The pink is the dc voltage on the IFB input to the EGS002 board, on C24.
The last DSO capture shows how fast the IFB signal can control the mosfet swtiching, generating very high current transients.
There is no low pass filtering of this signal.

So far I would rate the inverter board as a great starting point but you will need to disconnect the
external link they build that is soldered onto C24 on the ESG002.
Then change it over to soft start and you will have a very strong inverter driver board.

Peter.

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frackers on May 30, 2016, 07:22:37 AM
While I wait for a  User Journal, I'd thought I'd start putting together a wish list of capabilities and interfaces for a generic controller/logger for a solar/battery/inverter/gridtie system. Ideas are initially driven by what I can get cheap as a series of modules.

The brains of it would probably be this
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/mini-Stm32f103c8t6-system-board-stm32-learning-development-board/1568685935.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/mini-Stm32f103c8t6-system-board-stm32-learning-development-board/1568685935.html)
with maybe a wifi interface
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/1pcs-ESP8266-remote-serial-Port-WIFI-wireless-module-through-walls-best/32280714838.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/1pcs-ESP8266-remote-serial-Port-WIFI-wireless-module-through-walls-best/32280714838.html)
and/or an RF interface to a remote station (goes further than wifi)
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2pcs-lot-Special-promotions-1100-meter-long-distance-NRF24L01-PA-LNA-wireless-modules-with-antenna/969949629.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2pcs-lot-Special-promotions-1100-meter-long-distance-NRF24L01-PA-LNA-wireless-modules-with-antenna/969949629.html)
and maybe an SD card for local storage
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/MicroSD-card-module/32530917432.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/MicroSD-card-module/32530917432.html)
Display would be either character display like this
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-LCD-module-Blue-screen-IIC-I2C-2004-5V-20X4-LCD-board-provides-library-files/1873368596.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-LCD-module-Blue-screen-IIC-I2C-2004-5V-20X4-LCD-board-provides-library-files/1873368596.html)
or a more graphical display like this
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/J34-Free-Shipping-2-8-Inch-TFT-Color-LCD-SPI-Serial-ILI9341-Panel-Screen-Display-Module/32436568650.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/J34-Free-Shipping-2-8-Inch-TFT-Color-LCD-SPI-Serial-ILI9341-Panel-Screen-Display-Module/32436568650.html)
although that may use more memory than the 64k available on the cpu

DC side I've always used a DS2438 battery monitor chip ($1 each) which uses a shunt for current measurement and has a 10 bit A/D converter for voltage input. The great thing is that it does charge counting (30 times a second) so you can read amp-hrs straight out of it and it has a temperature sensor to read background conditions (you wouldn't want to glue it to a heat sink though!!)

AC side I'm thinking current transformer and transformer for voltage for isolation (although they will both likely require calibration). Other options are balanced high impedance inputs (couple of 10meg resistors to a differential A/D input) for volts and a Hall effect for current but I'm not impressed by the connections on some of the so called 200amp items.

Temperature sensors, I  would use 1-wire like the DC side measurements (since the interface code is already there!!)
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/1pcs-New-Digital-Temperature-Temp-Sensor-Probe-DS18B20-For-Thermometer-1m-Waterproof (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/1pcs-New-Digital-Temperature-Temp-Sensor-Probe-DS18B20-For-Thermometer-1m-Waterproof)

and mosfet buffered outputs for PWM controlled fans as well as LED indicators, buzzer
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Four-Channel-4-Route-MOSFET-Button-IRF540-V4-0-MOSFET-Switch-Module-For-Arduino/32294024692.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Four-Channel-4-Route-MOSFET-Button-IRF540-V4-0-MOSFET-Switch-Module-For-Arduino/32294024692.html)
and relays.
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-2-channel-relay-module-relay-expansion-board-for-arduino-5V-low-level-triggered-2/1885697835.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-2-channel-relay-module-relay-expansion-board-for-arduino-5V-low-level-triggered-2/1885697835.html)

Have I got everything yet?
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: dochubert on May 30, 2016, 11:21:12 AM
Oztules,
I plan to switch to ozcontrol 8010 on my 15kw powerjack soon as I can get one.
 On changing the gate resistors to 4.7 ohms and adding the diode (for Billy's 24v pj), is that value resistor and diode correct for 48v units too?  Also, after being changed, can I still switch back to the pj control, or do the resistors need to be original values for the original control?
Thanks
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 30, 2016, 03:49:26 PM
" On changing the gate resistors to 4.7 ohms and adding the diode (for Billy's 24v pj), is that value resistor and diode correct for 48v units too?"
Yes, the same.

" Also, after being changed, can I still switch back to the pj control, or do the resistors need to be original values for the original control?"
No idea, I expect so... I don't expect to retrofit the PJ, ....


..........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: dochubert on May 30, 2016, 05:38:24 PM
Thanks Oztules,
While I intend to build a complete unit down the line, first I need to get this 15kw unit working properly.  I have to change the fets anyway, so figured to change those gate resistors at the same time.  Trouble is, don't yet have an 8010 to put in so will be using my spare pj control until I get the 8010, assuming it will work with the new gate resistor values.
Or maybe I should just not change the resistors yet
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 30, 2016, 07:30:56 PM
Leave it alone until your ready to do the 8010... may find the new pj board will last for years.


...............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on May 31, 2016, 05:13:27 AM
howdey all,
I have been drafting up a bill of materials for my control board, fan controller and gti cutout and was wondering if i could get you to clarify a few components for me?
they are the ones marked with ??
thanks for the help



Fan controller

resistors
47k         X1
10k         X3
50k trimpot X2

Diodes
3v zener    X1

semi's
IRF640 ?    X1 ??? is this suitable?
LM339       X1


Gti cut out

caps
100uf electro X1
25uf  electro X1
100n ???      X1 ?? what type of cap is this?

diodes
1n4007        X2
20v zener     x1
40v zener     X1
5v  zener     X1
red led       X1
grn led       X1

resistors
1w 270r       X1 ??1W?
1w 560r         X1 ??1W?
1k5         X3
15k         X1
12k         X1
5k6         X3
20k         X1
5k trimpot    X1


Misc

LM339        X1
CD40106        X1
IRF640        X1



CONTROL BOARD

Caps
4.7uf        X5  ?? can i use tantalum??
100n        X9  ?? what type are these?
100uf 63v    X1
10uf 35v     X6  ?? correct voltage?
22pf ceramic X2
1nf          X1  ??plastic film capacitor??


Diodes
13v  zener   X1
5.6v zener   X1
1N4007        X12
led          X1


Resistors
5W 120r      X1
10k          X4
100r        X2
1k        X3
50k        X4
0r        X10
2k  trimpot  X1
10k trimpot  X1

xtal 12mhz hc49/us  ??? Is 12.288mhz ok?
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on May 31, 2016, 05:43:18 AM
Fan controller

resistors
47k         X1
10k         X3
50k trimpot X2

Diodes
3v zener    X1

semi's
IRF640 ?    X1 ??? is this suitable?.............yes
LM339       X1


Gti cut out

caps
100uf electro X1
25uf  electro X1
100n ???      X1 ?? what type of cap is this? ceramic or similar

diodes
1n4007        X2
20v zener     x1
40v zener     X1
5v  zener     X1
red led       X1
grn led       X1

resistors
1w 270r       X1 ??1W?  I think they were 3w from surplus store 20 years ago
1w 560r         X1 ??1W?... ditto
1k5         X3
15k         X1
12k         X1
5k6         X3
20k         X1
5k trimpot    X1


Misc

LM339        X1
CD40106        X1
IRF640        X1



CONTROL BOARD

Caps
4.7uf        X5  ?? ........can i use tantalum?? I use ceramic or electro now, don't know what tantalum will do... should be ok.
100n        X9  ?? ........what type are these? ceramic or poly .2" and .1" pin types check board spacing for each
100uf 63v    X1
10uf 35v     X6  ?? correct voltage?  I use 63v there are 7 including the one under the 8010
22pf ceramic X2
1nf          X1  ??plastic film capacitor?? ceramic or poly


Diodes
13v  zener   X1
5.6v zener   X1
1N4007        X12..... The charge pump uses2 x FR107 high speed stuff. the rest don't matter.. I only see 8 normal, and 2 fast
led          X1


Resistors
5W 120r      X1
10k          X4
100r        X2
1k        X3  only 2 of these
50k        X4
0r        X10..... think there are 12 of these including one under the 8010
2k  trimpot  X1
10k trimpot  X1

xtal 12mhz hc49/us  ??? Is 12.288mhz ok? use 12mhz, they are only 10 cents each. 12.288 should in theory work fine, but I don't know how much that will effect dead time etc. with machine cycle time... not much i suspect.


Remember I just build things, I am not an engineer..... just the village idiot. Most times I use things because I have them on hand. Not often have i found that different caps make appreciable differences... but this time they did/do. I know their behavior is slightly different in different circumstances, but did not think it was important here... wrong again >:(... but I didn't appreciate fet gate capacitance much years ago either

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on May 31, 2016, 06:16:52 AM
cheers Oz your the man.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on June 03, 2016, 10:39:21 PM
howdey,

just another couple of questions.
for the fan controller is it ok to substitute the 3v zener for a 3v3?
instead of irf640's can i use some of the 4110 that i have laying around?
for the high speed diodes can i use byw29e I have a few of them laying about?

Cheers,
            Sam
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 04, 2016, 01:19:20 AM
First, the coil you refer is pretty small... so no.

yes 3v3 is fine, it only establishes a reference voltage.

Any power fet will do.... we are only dabbling with 200ma at most... so 4110 is great..


Was fiddling with the board today, and hooked it to the house AFTER I had set the voltage... It ran local loads of up to 4kw perfectly and stably..... when I hooked it to the house circuit... without even turning  the contactor on... the voltage moved by 15v.. down.

Tried all sorts of things to see why.

1. replaced the 14007 with high speed fr107... small difference.... changed the  position of diodes with the 50k resistors... ie rectify first, then through the 5ok resistors.... small change again... cut off the 10k resistor in parallel with the pot... small change.... but have not solved it at all really.

If I set it to the house circuit... it tracks fine within a few volts over a 5kw range... but there is something of a high impedance fault I can't get to grips with yet....   :(

Small filter before the 240v goes to the voltage sense network helps a bit too.



,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,oztules

Always something I didn't think of apparently... it is annoying, not a game changer though.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on June 04, 2016, 03:48:41 AM
thanks for that oz.

hmm that is a funny quirk indeed, keep us in the loop it will be interesting to see what you come up with as the cause

Cheers,
           Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 04, 2016, 06:00:42 AM
It gets even weirder.... The solar panels are still hooked up at night, and I don't bother to block them... I am able to switch them out as 4 banks of approx 2.5kw per bank..

Well I switched off two of them don't know even why, but noticed the voltage fluctuated on the inverter... turned off the next two, and voltage on the AC changed by 15-20v???????? how????... so tomorrow  some investigation is in order... first the house without the power actually turned on changed it by 15v, then the solar panels at night.... changed it by 15v.

Makes no sense, as it s the AC side that controls it. A 5kw load makes almost no difference at all... maybe a volt......, but unlit panels and a turned off but connected house makes a huge difference.... wondering if the MEN earth system has something to do with it... no idea at the moment... but on all the testing "local loads " no matter the size, don't effect it at all....... thinking.....nah, must be ghosts..... :o.

..........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 04, 2016, 09:30:56 PM
Ok, I have isolated the problem. As a stand alone inverter, it needs no changes.... but as a off grid type unit, it needs changes to the ac reading part.

Fortunately this is a very easy mod... we simply pull out the 4 x 50k resistors on the voltage divider, and replace them with a very small ac transformer any voltage so long as it is over 5vac to probably 30v or more.

It seems that because the original circuiit was designed to not place the AC  either the load or neutral to ground... as this would blow things up if the MEN earth was messed up... safer for the unit to float....... so, they used the 200k as quasi isolation... the isolation you have when you have no isolation... that kind of isolation.

If you look at how they implemented it in the eg8010 data sheet, they have not accounted for a earthed neutral... which will short out one half of their voltage divider... this is what happened to me, the 240v became 120v just by plugging in the house leads... by using all kinds of tricks I reduced this to 15-20v.... but unstable with different environments.

The solar panels/battery and their earthing regime.... water dust etc ( is has been raining for 2 days here... another reason the problem became much easier to see) also changed the earth side of the DC and so this affected the result as well, so we can see that this system could be put off by competing earth loops.... high impedance ones as well

[attachimg=5]

It is a happy coincidence that clockman had plenty of room at that end of the board, and that 4uf was generous, and 2uf was plenty.

So remove 1 x 2u2  cap, and used that space to place a small transformer like this.

[attachimg=1]

The 240v leads go straight through the board to the 240v output pads.
The 14v (in this case as I got 10 for $12 years ago.. odd voltage never used them till now) now goes straight into where the 50k finished off before thwe diode bridge... and we are done.

Here is another look.

[attachimg=2]

and again

[attachimg=3]


and again

[attachimg=4]


Now it is totally independent, and has very good stability no matter the earthing of the loads, or the battery side.


............oztules

Ps sorry Clockman I never anticipated this... although I had a sneaking suspicion this might have been the case, but local load testing never looked like finding this out.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on June 05, 2016, 02:18:24 AM
Hi oztules,

What can I say but Wow!

Very good Excellent news on your finds and solutions.
 I went to bad last night in serous thinking mode, 'current sense ceiling reached on the 8010 and holding back voltage'.? 'PV leakages mine do'? 'Do we need that AC transformer back'?etc etc.

I wake up in the morning to come to write Brief notes the OzInverter (been asked) on its History, its name, substance and its development.
And 'oztules' has the voltage problem sorted!.

No problems on the OzControl board, mods. On my/Mrs Web site, my page is a dread full mess, I now have an update/amendment section so alterations are not desperate.
Plus I have small quantities of Print runs and PCB runs and the PCB stuff masks I print direct with my Mono Laser so things are quick to alter. (from today anyone asking for the boards would get this new one).

Oztules, Can you Link please to a suitable small transformer that will do the job, I will amend board. Many Thanks.

 




Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 05, 2016, 03:26:12 AM
Something like this is designed for pcb
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/220v-12V-1W-Output-Voltage-Isolation-Dry-Type-Transformer-Toroidal-Tube-/201347873880?hash=item2ee144bc58:g:Q2kAAOSwqu9VUETR

or a normal type would be this
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AC1W-Dual-LineTransformer-220V-to-12V-Power-Transformer-Power-Supply-Transformer-/191578313687?hash=item2c9af513d7:g:R8sAAOSwhwdVUZ77

Bigger is here:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/220V-50Hz-to-12V-3W-Ferrite-Core-Vertical-Single-Phase-EI-Power-Transformer-/391252396214?hash=item5b1875c8b6:g:ps8AAOSwJb9Wq6TV

etc etc etc.....


....oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on June 05, 2016, 05:30:39 AM
so that i can get one of these local would any of these be ok?
http://www.wiltronics.com.au/catalogue/465/electronic-components-and-parts/transformers/low-current-transformers-240v-ac

Cheers,
           Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 05, 2016, 06:32:04 AM
yes 9v or 15v  one would be fine....

Also to get better definition using the trim pot, I found that 500 oms instead of 10k with a 7k6 padder resistor on the  plus input leg, a 1k8 resistor between the gnd leg and ground. This gives a much tighter range to trim over... from 215 to 270v, rather than almost 50v to 390v.... and very tight to trim.... ie 1 degree was probably 10v, now less than 1v...easier to get to exactly 230v or 240v whatever....

I was a using a 14vac transformer, so your resistor value will be different I suppose.

Since swapping to the transformer for voltage control, the range during the day under any loads from the house was less than  a percent variance from the looks of it... probably closer to half a percent

...........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on June 05, 2016, 06:57:25 AM
Trim pot from 10k to 500r ?

100r resistor replaced with the 7k6?

10k resistor  replaced with a 1k8?

Thanks.

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 05, 2016, 02:45:43 PM
No, 10k pot to 500r pot
1k8 added
7k6added
10k resistor deleted
transformer added
power LED pins added
proper SPWM inhibit with pins added for on/off rather than the temp pins.
secondary LED pins for fault led output as well as on board LED.

Here is the tentative pdf.
Will build one today all going well.
If no changes then you can action it.
Don't use this except for perusing at the moment.

[attachimg=1]

........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: MarNet on June 06, 2016, 05:22:30 AM
Hi all,
Antman i heard that you need a bit of help with Arduino? Well i won`t charge you :)  . If i can help you there is no problem
This thing is made and designed by me ... -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMtiKbJgd4w

one question: the 4110`s gate power is 12V right? i`m stuck with an mppt controller here... I wanna make an 60A MPPT(arduino powered) for my wind turbine with the fixed output of 30V ... The mosfet get`s verry hot at 100khz ... Ill try to put an P channel transistor to run the fet from an 12V source
 
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on June 06, 2016, 05:56:06 AM
Hey Mar

Nice work that design and putting it all together neatly. Yep I'm a noob with all the Arduino programming. I understand what I need but just don't know how to put it all together.

The gate would work at 12 volts but it is best driven with a dedicated mosfet driver. What does your schematic look like? I have a buck converter board designed that is a single phase Design. Good for about 15 - 20 amps and 96 - 98% efficient without blocking diodes on the output. I also have a dual phase one mostly designed which would be good for double. Here's a quick vid with some basic software showing it working. https://youtu.be/FoQ4FwA329g

Only thing limiting the design is software. It needs a 100khz pwm with at least a 10 bit resolution. Dual phase would need a complimentary pwm.

Where abouts are you located?
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: peter on June 06, 2016, 09:22:16 PM
An easy way to disable the LM393 on the EGS002 is to remove R7 and C21 then short C21 contacts.
This pulls down to ground both negative inputs into the 2 opamps on LM393 as well as the 8010 IFB.
This now ensures the gate drive chips will never get a high input on the shut down pins, nor let the 8010
receive a SPWMEN low to disable output.

Doing this stops the sudden stop/start that sometimes occurs, stressing the bridge mosfets sometimes to failure
when IFB is connected to a meaningful input signal. Now IFB is rendered useless.
Only when controlling the +5V supply is the soft start (and graceful stop) available.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 07, 2016, 01:27:24 AM
Not quite right from my experience with this thing.
The IFB works very well IF you control it ... and don't allow anything else to do it either....AND you totally insure that the driver chip inhibit does not ever ever work.

The IFB on it's own is very useful routine, and always soft starts ( if you have the settings for soft..... hard wired as well). It is the driver chips driven by the 393 that causes the problems... best get rid of all of it (393).

Control of the soft start is accomplished with
IFB  or TFB or SPWM (pin6)

All work equally well, so now I use IFB for current set points ( this morning set it by trial and error to 6kw.. so it is now well tested at high power now)

TFB works well, and is useful for stop start except for the flashing light irritation. It does not interfere with temp control either, as it is switch open when running, so open only to the NTC sensor

SPWM control is not so well researched by me at this time.
I am using it from today onwards, and will see if any anomalies arise... so far I found that pull down resistor of 1k4 and a make to +5v switch works very well.

Any one of these operations will result in soft start ... but you must.... must  get rid of any chance of the driver chips being able to initiate... as they have NO soft start sequence.... they will blow the fets up easily if you have a decent sized torroid connected... it will be a dead short as far as they are concerned.

Not sure I would use the 5v supply as a power switch.... would prefer boot up to be not under pressure.

Today, forced start up under 6kw of load... no sag, no fuss. This was using the SPWM pin, then changed the IFB trim pot, and it stopped the unit at 5kw, then restarted under the same load, and cycled off again.... did this a few times expecting the worst.... never happened.

I have thus far seen no evidence of a graceful stop.....both the literature and observations say pretty much the same thing.... swpm just stops in the off position ( high or low depending on how you have set it up)... gate pulldown does the rest if drive is disabled for any reason ( holds gate to gnd).

Hope that helps to clarify what I have found works and what seems not to work so well.


.........oztules



Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: peter on June 07, 2016, 07:18:26 AM
I agree the shut down pins on the gate drive chips must not be driven by anything since this results in huge and bad things
happening in the mosfet bridge.
The quad opamp on the inverter board is supplied with +12V. The outputs of these - at 12V - are too high to directly drive the EC8010 IFB pin or SWPMEN.
So I need the 393 on the EGS002 board to convert levels from 12 to 5V.
 Instead of removing R7 and shorting C21, I may need to cut the traces running to the shutdown pins on the IR2110 driver chips
and, and....stuff it, I may as well make my own driver along the lines of what you have done!
You certainly have things working really nicely.

When I say "graceful stop", it is not a 3 second stop. It takes about 1  50 Hz cycle to stop power going into the
primary of the transformer. No sudden transients. I had a look at the PWM applied to the gate drives and it seems
to me the 8010 is quickly ramping down the switching duration during this final 1/2 cycle. Not just stopping within a few of the 23.4 kHz PWM cycles.
But then, this is from the inverter board controlling the device via +5V supply only, not IFB or SPWMEN.
here is a capture of the output voltage after shutdown (+5V supply pulled to ground)

Don't know what to do now, I don't trust the original design of the inverter board over current limit. We can't have the gate driver chips shutdown by anything. Time to have another think I suppose.

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 07, 2016, 09:29:42 AM
[attachimg=1]
You can see from this that the 393 does not have 12v... the only thing with 12v on the entire board is the driver chips output stage.. the rest is 5v... so don't worry about that aspect.... ie vcc of 393 is +5v

Drive the IFB pin with the current transformer, and it will activate at 0.5v and pull outputs down to zero instantly.... no messing about.
Drive the TFB with 5v and it will stop instantly as well.. both are soft start recovery with pin 21 high ( soft start select)
And of course pin 6 is soft start and instant stop if pin 21 high as well.


By turning off the 5v as you suggest, it goes through the under voltage lock out protection I think... thats where the lag is I suspect... I have not tried it... bit dangerous to do as a control I expect. Anything may happen as the voltage degenerates, I fully expect the under voltage lock will work out fine... but....it is doing this with a decaying voltage on the drivers too, and not sure if that will always be a good result.

Providing you ground the pin 13's of the 2110, you will have no problems. I did that by cutting the 393 off, shorting pin 1 to 4.. there are probably more elegant ways to do it, but that works.... then you can use the current sense as you would expect to have done.... ie a CT and rectifier to pin 1 of your interface.

pin6 spwm will now be pulled high by the 10k r30. I found that on my 8010 board, it was best to make it more definite and lower impedance, in fact I use 5v for on and a pull down resistor of 1k5 or thereabouts to shut it off by default if you want a stop start switch, thats the way to go I think. The temp is as good as any without getting to the 002 board direct.

 I know this works.

But I don't use the 002 boards anymore... so I have 10 or more spare..... I like the 8010 boards instead.

It does not matter which board type you use, you will need an isolated AC feedback to achieve consistent AV out voltage if there is any chance of the battery side sharing  an earth ( high impedance as well as low) with the ac side ( off gird house with MEN earth system etc). Can be opto or transfromer... I used the transformer, as I have plenty of 1w 14v type to burn up that I haven't used in over a decade or more.


I think I'm the last person on the planet with an old fashioned  Cathode Ray Oscilloscope now   ...... feeling very old.....

......... oztules




Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on June 07, 2016, 10:02:08 AM
Hi peter,

If it helps, I have just posted up the latest OzControl Board No8, with the latest amendments.

http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,149017.msg1037736.html#new

http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8706

Sorry Anotherpower, I just can not post images here. (For some reason this site is blocked by the French Authorities, and I have to use a VPN site in Germany, its free but limited bandwidth, times etc).

At present, I am not quite Man enough to go the Pin 6 route, so for the time being I have stayed with the ON/OFF on the Over Temperature system, and it still works as an Over temperature with a thermometer probe/sensor attached.

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: rossw on June 07, 2016, 03:57:21 PM
I think I'm the last person on the planet with an old fashioned  Cathode Ray Oscilloscope now   ...... feeling very old.....

Feel comforted, Oztules... you're not alone.
I still have my old BWD 539C from when I was a teen, and a Tek 24445A, and something else I can't recall that I haven't used in ages. The little Tek TDS210 (DSO) is my knockabout cro for quick-and-dirty, because it's small, light and fairly tough.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frwainscott on June 08, 2016, 01:44:20 AM
Anyone looking for torroids in the US.....

 Here is a link to 2kw  torroids -

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?&_from=R40&_trksid=p2054502.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.TRS5&_nkw=Toroidal%20transformer%202500VA%20240V%20secondary%20153V%20primary%20with%20screen

The dude says he has 10+ on hand they have a 230 volt secondary and two 153 volt primary. As is .5 volt/wrap... they are $50.00 USD......

Frank...
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: MarNet on June 08, 2016, 03:44:29 PM
Hi all
Antman, did you seen the pwm library?
I mean this one
http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=117425.0
I don't have the oscilloscope to test it but there some guyz said its ok.
My mppt will be based on simple buck converter schematic...
I'll see how Tim Nolan 's algorithm works
I only had a look on that, i seen that 20uH, on my knowledge its 50khz... For 100khz there is 10uH delay but its not easy on 10 bits
My mppt will be for an 60A 24v axial wind power generator
I have difficulties with output current sensor....  I'm thinking about reading a shunt resistor at this stage.
I'm based on Dublin /Ireland but my farm is not here...
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on June 09, 2016, 04:42:35 AM
Hey Mar

I had a programmer look at the programming and the 8 bit arduino isn't capable of more than an 8 bit PWM at over 62.5Khz. I've ordered some of the STM32 boards as recommended by Frackers

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/STM32F103C8T6-ARM-STM32-Minimum-System-Development-Board-Module-For-Arduino/32326304541.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.1.I0X3mZ&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_0,searchweb201602_5_10037_10017_507_10032_401,searchweb201603_6&btsid=076970e2-7f8b-4eac-aba9-5fd2311095e4

I use the INA271 and a 10 milli ohm shunt for accurate current reading in most of my projects.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on June 09, 2016, 06:57:39 AM
hi Oz,
would you happen to have a component overlay of the new pcb?

Cheers,
           Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: jdevine82 on June 09, 2016, 09:36:30 AM
Hi all
I have just looked back into all this after following Oztules advice with a powerjack conversion which has been running by house for a year or so. I am wondering if the gerber files or dxfs are available? Just makes it a bit easier than pdf for those not printing out the pcb layouts. Thanks to everyone for the information, truly the opensource spirit makes dreams come true for many people.
Jason
Greetings from Sunny West Wyalong
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 09, 2016, 06:02:30 PM
Clockman has difficulty processing some stuff to this site for reasons to do with the French system...
So here are the files posted on the sites he can.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]
or
[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]

Are they the ones your after Zogg.

Jason, I will put up a pcb file for protel. You can extract the gerbers, or alter it etc. It is not identical to the clockman one, it uses pin 6 for on/off... so electrical almost the same.
 
It will be later today when I have time to check it.

Do you have a protel pcb program PFW for windows is what it will be, but you can download the latest altium, and it will run it as well.
Most board manufactures across the world can run protel files.

...........oztules

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on June 09, 2016, 07:51:09 PM
i grabbed those ones from the other site but i have etched my board using the last pdf that you put up in this thread and your layout looks a bit different to clockmans

Cheers,
           Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 09, 2016, 10:37:51 PM
Do you mean the one ?
"Here is the tentative pdf.
Will build one today all going well.
If no changes then you can action it.
Don't use this except for perusing at the moment.
"
you weren't supposed to use that one, I will have to go back to it and check changes from then.. I think they are mostly convenience changes ( slightly different part size to match what I have on hand etc.

Let me know which one you etched.. all will work, but some may require a track nip and tuck...


..............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on June 09, 2016, 10:49:31 PM
$#!+ balls lol. looks like i have made the wrong one. is it still workable or would i be better off making a new one?

Cheers,
            Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 10, 2016, 01:43:08 AM
It will still work fine, just let me know which one it is or paste it here... I'll check it to see of/what it lacks or runs with. It may not have pin 6 on/off or it may not have off board leds, but it will work,??

I have a suspicion that one had a best guess at pin6 on/off and it worked, but works better with a slight change.




Is it that one I said not to build?

.......oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 10, 2016, 01:50:56 AM
I built 2 that day, that one, made some changes, then made another one..... both work,  but there were some changes... will get to it tonight, but you can fill the board for a start, it is only the start style from memory... from temp to spwm start.

will look into it and see why I changed it.

.............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 10, 2016, 02:30:54 AM
This is to help Zogg. It is not the latest, but will work with minor changes

DO NOT ACTION THIS without understanding it has no support, as it is/was a work in progress.
The final design is currently running the house  for the next week or more, and then I will put up the final working one that I will be able to support fairly readily, as it will become the run of the mill one I will use.




[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]


[attachimg=5]

Maybe that will help.

The pcb had changed slightly by then, and it was a auto backup near the time the other one was changed. The pin 6 of 8010 chip  (pins 1,2,95,64,63,1,2)  is where the change up to that point is from the one you have I think.


Here is the pcb if you have a protel or altium pcb program. get trial here to read it if you want to go through the nonsense they have there.
http://www.altium.com/free-trial?utm_source=paidsearchgoogle&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Own-Brand-Broad-Search-without-USA&gclid=Cj0KEQjwyum6BRDQ-9jU4PSVxf8BEiQAu1AHqsH5UCndue6Cz_ZIYefg7_U5DgydJhZofVmYzAJ0-aYaAmsr8P8HAQ

[attachimg=6]

..............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on June 10, 2016, 03:19:54 AM
thanks oz,
this is the one i etched

Cheers ,
             Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on June 10, 2016, 03:24:43 AM
and thanks for taking the time to help me out :)

Cheers,
           Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on June 10, 2016, 02:57:34 PM
Hi Zogg,

Those PDF's of mine have the 220vac to 12vac small transformer changes and off board connectors for the 2 LED's.

However my boards are the START/STOP using the Over Temp system, it works well.

I need some time to get my head around the Pin 6 modification that 'oztules' has done with the latest OzControl board. He has explained it, and I can see where he is coming from. But I am not the brightest of sparks, and I have certainly made some silly mistakes, that 'oztules' has gently pointed out.

I have just had a small quantity of double sided Ozcontrol boards done as my PDF.

But the next small batch I will incorporate those new PIN 6 amendments. 
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on June 10, 2016, 08:08:43 PM
are the fat yellow traces links like the 0r resistors?

Cheers.
            Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 10, 2016, 09:20:07 PM
yes... just links.... due to poor pcb skills perhaps.....


............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on June 10, 2016, 10:02:40 PM
you are doing better than me i cant even make the correct one. lol

Cheers,
           Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on June 11, 2016, 04:57:17 PM
Hello Oztules,

In regards to the pj control card, when i connect my multi meter to the ground and the case of my Ozinverter I get a reading of 14.5 vac , and since you know everything about these things , is this normal? oh I should tell you that I have the case grounded to the rest of my RE system but haven't connected the pj ground to the case yet.

Thanks,
Billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 11, 2016, 05:59:44 PM
I wish I did know everything about these things......remember I'm just a hack in reality....

Ok, the 14v or whatever it decides to be will have no current attached to it I expect so it is a high impedance imbalance.
When you ground all the stuff to a common, it will disappear and there will be no change in current draw.

Note, the PJ has several routes to ground on the control card and the power board. There is a series of caps that split the voltage to ground for noise purposes on both boards, and this leads to a measurable leakage component.

Then there are stray inductance voltages  from the heavy currents being switched.... a whole mess of things that will create small voltage changes.

Measure the AC current between the points, and I am guessing it will be in the milliamps at best.

What surprises me is the stability that the PJ has regards voltage when connected to the house earth system. The thing has no isolation between the mains and the control voltage ( except for a multi meg ohm staircase ), yet on the  8010 and 002 boards, it will throw the voltage sense off without isolation.

Do you have it up and running, and tested under loads yet?
How did it go for you.

pics etc...


................oztules

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on June 11, 2016, 06:34:24 PM
Oztules,

thanks for that , and yes its been running for 3 or more months now, 3 and 4 kw for hours (batteries crying) hehe,
I posted some pictures on thebackshed, I was the guy that blew up the first card lol I put it in a old orange air dryer case (tall) if you recall.

I wasn't sure if hooking the ground up was what blew the last card, but I also had some wires crossed as well, and now kind of scared to do that with no back up.

Billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: rossw on June 11, 2016, 09:19:47 PM
Ok, the 14v or whatever it decides to be will have no current attached to it I expect so it is a high impedance imbalance.
When you ground all the stuff to a common, it will disappear and there will be no change in current draw.

Measure the AC current between the points, and I am guessing it will be in the milliamps at best.

When I'm faced with this situation, I use a sacraficial 1R resistor. I bought a couple of hundred 1R/0.25W metal film for $2 or something, so they're perfect. No risk of damage to my multimeter, and an instant "something's not right" indicator.

If that 15V is "leakage", then the 1R will remove it, the couple of milliamps will generate next to no heat, and all is good.
If the 15V is non-trivial, then the 1R will smoke, or go bang to indicate how much oomph is behind it! And for 0.1c it's real cheap insurance :)

Just my take on it.

(If you don't have 1R, anything that you have plenty of will do... 4R7, 10R, 100R, they'll all do the same thing for you)
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on June 12, 2016, 02:39:54 AM
Hi oztules,

Okay, I have looked at the Pin 6 start/stop arrangement you have progressed.

Compared to the 8010 Data Sheet and its arrangement, 393 & connection to the two 2110, just your additional 1k5 resistor is the most simplification I have ever seen.

Well done, ...... I do like your simplification philosophy.

I am going to be very interested in how and what you think this simple New Pin 6 ON/OFF behaves like.

I Also note that you have taken 2 caps from 4u7 to 10uf on the 5v and made them polarised Cans?, and also made the 4u7 on the AC voltage 500r trimmer a polarised Can.?

.........."and then I will put up the final working one that I will be able to support fairly readily, as it will become the run of the mill one I will use."  ........ excellent news!

Many Thanks   
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on June 12, 2016, 01:58:55 PM
Hi rossw,

that would work great, i thought of using a small fuse. I'm going to check to see if there is any amps there, I hoping not or very little like Oztules mentioned.

Thx

Billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 14, 2016, 07:04:39 PM
I have settled on this for the time being.
It does everything I want, others may want more/less.

Yes Zogg, you can action this one without any changes:)

1. It has on/off via pin 6
2. It has temp input as well for disaster situations where fan fails and temp gets out of hand
3. It has off board pins for power led
4. It has off board pins for status led
5. It uses a current transformer coil
6. It uses an isolation transformer for the voltage feed back.
7. It uses a simple voltage supply using the TIP35c... simple, and effective and fails off not on.

There are two things that I don't like particularly.

1. The voltage drifts in the first few minute from say set 230 to 234v... then stabilizes rock solid at 234 or whatever you set for  plus 4 v after the first  5 minutes.

Can't find what is heating this up or what ever causes it. The heat gun makes no difference once stable... so maybe not heat but what else I can't say.
It is stupid simple, which makes finding the fault either dirt simple or impossible. ( inside chip)

2.If you slowly raise the voltage of the supply from 0v to 50v or so slowly, the chip hangs.... no idea why...but it is internal, and does it when you slowly introduce the power to it.
If you splat the terminals which is pretty standard, then no problems forever while it is connected to batteries.
I use a 10 ohm resistor to avoid the splat, and this is fine too, but if you go to say 100r, then it will charge up, but no action... so keep in mind.

Neither of these two problems are show stoppers by a long long way. The plus attributes easily out weigh these foibles, but they need to be mentioned.

Apart form that, these things are quick and simple to build, and run beautifully... and create no fuss , but just run anything thrown at them... really remarkable little devices.

I won't be going any further, as I cant see what else you could ask for in a home inverter. Those that like lots of bells and whistles designed to make them look very complex will be disappointed... they are simple, and work as well... in fact better than all I have encountered as a straight inverter.

It draws a very modest idle current ( 30 watts or so), and go for excursions over 10kw without any worry.... very very versatile.

Ok here is the final PCB I will use from now on

The board complete

[attachimg=1]

top left

[attachimg=2]

top right

[attachimg=3]

bottom left

[attachimg=4]

bottom right

[attachimg=5]

and the board proper.
1. The wires coming away from the little pins are the on/off pins.
2. The pins beside the led are the led off board pins for status.
3. The pins on the outside of the board next to the heat sink is the temp pins for a 10k@25c ntc.
4. The pins next to them nearer the chip board is the power on led... registers the 5v from the regulator.the chip side of the two pins .

Note... if you don't intend to use the temp pins, ground the temp pin ( the one thats not the 5v ). I suggest you use the pin and a ntc 10k@25c for a safety net in case of fan failure for whatever reason.

[attachimg=6]


Will do the pdf later.

Who would have believed that something this simple, and just add fets and transfromer and box, and you have a super inverter... not me for one:)

It just works so well.


.........oztules

Edit:

It took a few boards to get here.... and they all work too....

[attachimg=7]

And here in a aerosharp 3kw box for a little 4kw unit... still runs the house totally, and pulls 10kw start up power. very hard to beat .

[attachimg=8]


And here with a few more kw... not much movement with the voltage really... It was to be a 240v machine, but I settled for 232v for better power usage.. not much of a change electrically, but saves the battery a bit of pain when these loads come on that are resistive in  nature. otherwise it would be over the 5kw by quite a margin for the hot water, electric jug fridge freezer tv and wall warts etc... all are on in this instance. That 8 or 10v means nothing to all other appliances, but it does take some of the shock out of it for the battery.


[attachimg=9]

It works.

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 14, 2016, 08:10:04 PM
Ok pdf

[attachimg=1]

Hope this helps someone somewhere... and this is from the gerber files

[attachimg=2]

And no I don't have a clue how to use gerbers... but this is what came out of the program..may be useful for someone.
EDIT reloaded the gerbers.... these may work better
Edit 2 no they dont for newer cad progs,  but the ones later in the thread apparently do

[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]

[attachimg=5]

[attachimg=6]

maybe those will work better



..............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on June 15, 2016, 05:24:29 AM
thanks oz. I will get on it.
at least i have had some practice making pcbs with the kinsten boards now.
I have always used toner transfer but this is way better once you get the hang of it.

would i be able to pull 12v off of the tip35c for my fans, or would that be asking a bit much of it?

anyhow great work as useual,

Cheers,
           Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 15, 2016, 06:41:01 AM
No, the tip would need a whole heap of cooling..... don't do it.
Your better to get this
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/191816717709?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Cheap as nuts, and more power than you know what to do with.


...............oztules

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on June 15, 2016, 06:55:42 AM
yeah. i have a fair few of them I was just being lazy haha.

thanks for that.

Cheers,
           Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 15, 2016, 07:10:27 PM
and here is the pcb file for those that can read protel

[attachimg=1]

.............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on June 16, 2016, 12:28:21 PM
Oztules,

can that protel convert pcb to dxf?

billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: billy on June 16, 2016, 02:16:10 PM
Oztules,

sorry never seen your other post regarding the files that you can put out with the program.

Billy
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 16, 2016, 11:03:25 PM
Clockman was good enough to send some fet boards to test.....not sure how he will take to this.... but
Feeling very slack, and having no small heat sinks to fit, the next thing was to cut up the huge heat sinks from the grid ties... it all looked to hard today.. so

[attachimg=1]
 and  testing  was fine

[attachimg=2]

It is simple and easy way to do it with much less drilling and tapping... also you could mount it on any heat sink or even water tank if your going all out for power.

So Clockman, board worked fine.

The little caps seemed too big. I know the schematic says 104, but in the end 472 was used or the resistors smoked up on the 23khz sides.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on June 18, 2016, 02:10:48 AM
Excellent news, 'oztules'.

Good to see you giving that Power Board a good thrashing/testing. !...... well done!

Okay those 4off 104, 100nf disc caps changed to 4.7nf, thanks for finding that.

I think that's about it for the time being, a Good OzControl Board, (the Pin6 design), a Good Power Board, and your DoubleOzCooling board, ....... brilliant.

I note your comment on the Power Board not needing to much cooling now, but I will still go safe with your OzCooling circuits  on the PCB's and on the toroid.

I do like the stonking big single 50mm/2 or 75mm/2 cable for the Primary, just so much easier to get cool air circulating through the toroid and around the Primary. Just never sure where in the World the OzInverter could be operating.

I will post some pics on my BigOzInverter, (41kg toroid core) soon, that will be interesting......

Thanks again for your help.

Note, ......as a matter of interest, I have been following Midnite Solar as they build there New modular 48vdc  Inverter, they have just submitted for 8 patents, Its taken them 4 years, yea due diligence and the like.
'Oztules' and friends thrashed out everything in the real world in about 4 months.

The World moves forwards with folk like 'oztules'.

Thanks


Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on June 18, 2016, 08:16:02 PM
hi oz would it be possible to get a bill of materials for your latest design. and are there any small changes to the design or parts from what is pictured?
just trying to be prepared this time. i'm going to build 3 in one go, one for each of my inverters and one as a spare.

Cheers,
            Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on June 19, 2016, 03:35:17 AM
Here is mine...........

The PIN6 start/stop.

As 'oztules' says, that 7k5 resistor on the 500r trimmer, (AC voltage adjust) might need to be slightly lower value, as I am using a 12vac input where 'oztules' was using a 14vac.


From The OzInverter Book.
PCB Component details for the 6-15kW OzControl Board 9.
These Boards have been designed for easily obtainable components and parts.  This list will be updated as required.    Most of the component/parts details are from Ebay and may be purchased there, however some parts may only be found on Allibaba, so the Web Link is given.
Please find below a list of the majority of parts required.   19/06/2016

220vac, 12V 1W Output Voltage Isolation Dry Type Transformer Toroidal Tube. …  Or  220v:12V 3W Output Voltage Isolation/ Dry Type Transformer.
EG8010 LQFP-32 Sine wave inverter chip, HN1518HT1536,  http://www.aliexpress.com/item/10pcs-lot-New-EG8010-LQFP-32-Sine-wave-inverter-chip/32605461001.html.
 
Single sided copper clad PCB, 86mm x 170mm x 1.5mm 35um thick copper.

0.65mm to 0.8mm QFN32/QFP32 IC DIP Mounting PCB Adapter Converter Plate for  SMD chip, (1 off). …. 40Pin (we need 2 off 16pin), 2.54mm Male & Female SIL Header Socket Row Strips PCB Connectors.
HC-49S 12.000MHZ 12MHZ  20PF DIP Crystal Oscillator, (1 off).

IR2110PBF IR2110 IR FETS DRIVER CHIP DIP-14 IC 5V, (2 off).  …. TIP35C TRANSISTOR, (2 off) …. 5.6v (1.3W) Zener Diode, BZX55C5V6, (1 off). ….. 13v  (1.3W) Zener Diode, BZX85C5V6, (1 off). … DIODES fast/RAPIDES FR107 - 1A, (2 off). ….  IN4007 Diode - Rectifier - 1A  1000V , (8 off). …
DC 2.5V-3.0V 5mm Red LED Lamp Emitting Diode, (2 off, one red, one green).
   
Monolithic Ceramic Chip Capacitor 475  4.7UF 50V 20% 5.08mm Pitch, (2 off).  …. Monolithic Ceramic Chip Capacitor  10UF 50V , (5 off).  ….  CBB61 Polypropylene Film Motor Start Run Capacitor, 2uF 50/60Hz 450V AC, (1off). …   22pF - Ceramic Disc Capacitor, 50V , (2 off). …. 100nf Ceramic Disc Capacitor, 50V, (9 off).  …. 1nf Ceramic Disc Capacitor, 50V, (1 off).  …  10uF Electrolytic Capacitor, (can), 63V (max) 105°, (4 off). …  100uF Electrolytic Capacitor, (can), 63V (max) 105°, (1 off).

100r Ohm 1/2W Metal Film Resistor, (2 off)… …Resistor 2K Variable TRIMMER, (1 off). …. Resistor 500r Variable TRIMMER, (1 off). ….  120 Ohm 5W Ceramic Wirewound Resistor, (1 off). …..   0.6W Metal Film Resistor 10K , (3 off). … 0.6W Metal Film Resistor 7K6 , (1 off). … 0.6W Metal Film Resistor 1K , (5 off). ….. 0.6W Metal Film Resistor 1K8 , (1 off). … 0.6W Metal Film Resistor 1K5, (1 off).

IDC Straight Latched PCB Plug (male) Connector 10 Way, (1 off). …  Molex KK Connector Housing 2 Way (5 off). … Molex KK Straight Header Connector 2 Way (5 off) & 10 Molex crimp terminals to match. …. 
14-Pin DIL DIP IC Socket PCB Mount Connector, (2 off). …. -50~70℃ LCD Panel Digital Thermometer Temperature Meter  Probe sensor, (1 off). … PCB Blade 6.3mm Connector Terminal Vertical (2 off). … DL-CT08CL5 20A/10MA 2000/1 0~120A MICRO CURRENT TRANSFORMER X9N0, (1 off), for the 230vac sense cable from the secondary.

The above list is now duly amended as per 'oztules' post below.  I think?
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 19, 2016, 03:48:05 AM
Clockman, check your list against this BOM

"Bill of Material for Z:\HOME\OZTULES\DESKTOP\80109F.PCB"
"On 19-Jun-2016 at 18:40:09"

"Comment","Pattern","Quantity","Components"


"","10PIN","1","A79"
"","CON2","2","A57 A58"
"","SPADE","4","A51 A60 A61 A62"
"0r","AXIAL0.3","8","A4 A13 A14 A17 A26 A34 A44 A50"
"0r","AXIAL0.4","4","A27 A29 A41 A52"
"0r","AXIAL0.5","1","A28"
"100r","AXIAL0.3","2","A77 A78"
"100uf 63v","RB.2/.4","1","A71"
"104","C1","2","A22 A23"
"104","C1C","2","A48 A66"
"104","CAP2","5","A10 A12 A30 A68 A82"
"10k","AXIAL0.3","1","A38"
"10k","AXIAL0.4","2","A6 A40"
"10uf","C2S","4","A18 A19 A20 A21"
"10uf","CAP2","5","A8 A15 A45 A76 A83"
"120r","AXIAL1.1","1","A7"
"13v","DIODE0.4","1","A39"
"14v/240","TRANS","1","A9"
"1k","AXIAL0.3","5","A1 A33 A49 A63 A65"
"1k5","AXIAL0.3","1","A42"
"1k8","AXIAL0.3","1","A81"
"1n","CAP2","1","A5"
"2110","DIP14","2","A2 A3"
"22p","C2","2","A74 A75"
"2k","POT","1","A46"
"2uf","11PINCAP","1","A69"
"4007","DIODE0.3","8","A53 A54 A55 A56 A59 A64 A84 A85"
"4u7","CAP2","2","A31 A37"
"500r","POT","1","A47"
"5v6","D3","1","A16"
"7k5","AXIAL0.3","1","A67"
"8010","801032","1","A72"
"ct","CON2","1","A11"
"fr107","D3","2","A25 A80"
"led","LED","1","A32"
"tip35c","TO220V","2","A35 A36"
"xtal","RAD0.2","1","A24"

There seems to be too many 1k8 and 1k  in your list.
Electro 10uf are now 4 on the outputs of the 2110 only

2x4u7 ceramic now
9x10uf, 4 of them electro 5 of them ceramic etc.

Some of the 104 on mine are 2 pin spaced, and some one pin space.. c1c and c1 are the same thing  ( in the BOM).. so 4 of the single space and 5 of the 2 pin space.

Sorry for this, but this is the final one as per pics above .... may be slightly different to yours, but I understood only 1 led should have been different and the resistor for it ( yours had a pwr led on board as well as the off board pins I think.)

This was the trouble with a work in progress.. but all good in the end.

I just wish everyone could read protel files, and the version I have does old gerbers that no-one else can read with modern programs... will try to find my old design 99se, and see if it can do  gerber 247 or what ever it is now.


.............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Dr_Zogg on June 19, 2016, 03:50:50 AM
thanks for that fellas  8)
it is appreciated

Cheers,
           Zogg
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on June 19, 2016, 04:49:54 AM
Yes, Sorry about that 'Oztules' and 'Dr Zogg'.

Its a dynamic project, and sometimes I am running to keep up!.

Yes, the 4 10uf cans on the 2110 driver outputs was essential, I left 2 on the other side, but if we do not need cans there, then they are changed for Monolithic types.

Regards Pin outs... I have tried to leave room for manoeuvring, as folk may not be able to get specific sizes, hence those Trimmers have Pin hole options.

Regards PCB software Gerber files etc, last used that stuff 30 odd years ago, seems nothing much has changed today.
I leapt in feet first, 6 months ago I Purchased the latest TARGET PCB software as it could import my DXF files from my CAD, but what a heck of a swim to get ones head around, especially nowadays, as you need to be a part number/package number, Monkey. 

Thanks.

 
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on June 19, 2016, 04:54:14 AM
Zogg here is another bunch of gerbers from a different protel program 99se. see if you can open these
.[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
[attachimg=7]

Surely they will work for someone now.
Clockman , hopefully you can open them to help getting things synced now.

..............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on June 19, 2016, 05:27:24 AM
Yes, Just downloaded and saved, then used the free GERBER File Viewer, GC PREVUE, Import function to check each file.

And Yep, they are active Gerber files RS-274-X, ready for the PCB manufacture.


Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: stevebequik on July 14, 2016, 09:55:32 PM
Hi oztules,
First time poster here at anotherpower.
This is incredibly great work.

I am interested in builder your control board but looking at higher voltages battery packs.(much higher)

I believe that off grid setups of the future will have higher voltages. This is the way all electric car are heading.
Re-used/salvage lithium EV battery packs are becoming very affordable and people will want to reuse their existing grid PV high voltage arrays for off grid conversions.

I just imported into Australia a 2014 Chevy Volt battery pack. $3000  landed for a 16kWh 3p96s 45ah lithium pack.
Charged to 4.1v/cell equals 394v. discharge to 3.5v is 336v. Direct charged by my existing 2 x 14 panel 7kw array.
Currently this is fed into a 10kva Eaton 9140 true online UPS. this usually has a 384v SLA pack.
This setup works reasonably well however the UPS idles over 100w, I have no redundancy and bucklies chance of repairing the complex UPS if it fails.

So I am looking at building my own inverter. The battery pack generally lives between 350 and 394v. This should be enough for a 230v ac transformer less design.
So I am wondering your thoughts on the feasibility of this and if your control board could drive a transformer less power stage?

Thanks Steve
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on July 15, 2016, 06:50:53 AM
This won't ups.

It will run any voltage up to 600v I think. This chip was designed for  HV transformerless operation.

Get the eg8010 data sheet and look at the circuits accompanying the chip.

There is also the egs002 board,. The circuits in the 8010 data sheet are aimed at this.

It will be a useful way to go without the weight, but I would probably still go for the transformer isolation...... I like galvanic isolation.

For those voltages I would turn to igbt's


..............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: jaymes on August 22, 2016, 09:43:19 PM
i am very happy to be a new member of this great forum,i am from Nigeria and i use to design an inverter ,but this is the greatest i have seen, my hand is on desk now ,thank you all.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: jaymes on August 22, 2016, 10:09:14 PM
pls, can some one send to me or post the pwrboard pcb for me in pdf or protel99se version, pdf must be for heat transfer method ,also what method did our moderator use i see he print out the image and rub oil and transfer ,clear this method for me please.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on August 23, 2016, 03:27:45 PM
Somewhere here there is a nice pdf from Clockman for the power board. I won't have time to search for it, as I have to go out now... but someone may remeber which thread it is in.

.......oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: jaymes on August 24, 2016, 06:14:47 AM
 I am hoping that ,someone will help me out,can these inverter charged through mains.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Phred on August 24, 2016, 09:03:28 AM
I sense that u want to do some time shifting. It may not be that economic to do this as there are conversion losses to take into account. The power sourced @ off peak rates may cost the same as peak. It would be wiser to shift your power usage to off peak times. Normally one would have solar inverters powered by solar panels. The battery inverter is basically a mini grid source (as a master) so the solar inverters would synchronize with the 240v mains. Any excess power will recharge the batteries. Using the mains as a source of power is a little trickier in that the inverter will need to be the unit that's synchronized and locked to the mains instead (as a slave). This will require a cct changes to achieve this. If the synchronization is not maintained the the inverter will provide some pyrotechnics.   
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: jaymes on August 25, 2016, 09:40:42 AM
Alright,, i am still looking forward for the pwrboard pcb.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on August 26, 2016, 03:37:06 AM
For those with aerosharp or inspire inverter boxes that they got the transformers from, you can also use the heat sink like this.

1.get hold of a power saw that is bench mounted preferably.
2. get a new 60 tooth blade ( tungsten carbide teeth mine is 250mm or thereabouts)
3. spray the fins and all over the cutting area with CRC etc.
4.measure the center and cut it in half longitudinally.
5. cut again to get room for the capacitors.

Like this
 [attachimg=1]

and this
[attachimg=2]

Then if you have the clockman board, it looks like this

[attachimg=3]

and this

[attachimg=4]

etc...

[attachimg=5]


...........oztules


Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frackers on August 26, 2016, 12:48:32 PM
For those with aerosharp or inspire inverter boxes that they got the transformers from, you can also use the heat sink like this.

OOoooo thats evil...

But I like it  ;)
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: dom44 on August 28, 2016, 06:09:49 PM
great thread I have just built your board works great but i am finding that starts unreliably have to try 2 or 3 times to start it but when activates works great just have to build the fet board
and hear is a bit of info i came across might be helpful concerning the eg002 board,

http://ele-tech.com/html/doing-with-all-effort-of-power-engineer-maximum-3kw-inverter-final-stage.html

states    4,Voltage protection is pressed, low-voltage protection can choose to open or close with the jumper wire  ( think they mean preset )

might be worth investigating could be chip pin implemented.

this is spwm power communication program for the chip if anyone wants to go there its Chinese but simple enough to work out      http://www.filedropper.com/pwm

oops just noticed its a different version of board but com program is the same.

this is another version of the sine wave board with  pic16f716                 

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/PIC16F716-IR2113S-Pure-Sine-Wave-Inverter-Driver-Board-After-Drive-Control-Board-/171674277668?hash=item27f8959724:g:yvkAAOSwkZhWTFLb
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on August 29, 2016, 07:03:24 PM
Which board version did you build?
pics?
Normally starts fine unless you slowly build the voltage up to the board. This causes it to not start for some reason. It is in the chip itself.

If you use the pin 6 start up board, then it is iffy with long wires on the start switch.

.......oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: dom44 on August 30, 2016, 01:29:43 AM
All good thanks OZTULES   it works fine I was using a boost converter for the supply to test was not enough current thats all.   I built the last board with transformer on it,  I have a question for you as i am redesigning the driver stage with optos and or pulse transformers for isolation,
 did you end up moving the 20khz section to the low side from what i can see unless i am wrong one bank of fet,s are high side and low side 20khs pwm the other bank 50hz like the original?.
thanks great job you have done.

and is this correct please.

https://postimg.org/image/h7myavg4z/
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on August 30, 2016, 03:45:30 AM
It looks ok to me.

Yes, I didn't bother to go 50hz on both hi sides to control switching losses, as testing on the first and subsequent units show that they seem to heat virtually as much for the high frequency sinks, regardless of high or low side.... so I never bothered to alter it. If you build it as I did, then you can see for yourself... not much in it.

I do intend to try all sides at high frequency, should give a quieter transformer.

I designed a opto version but did not pursue it as the heating is really not an issue. It is easy to keep cool with low speed fans.


Welcome to the club.... you may find it becomes a sickness... I see a lot of folks are building more than just 1, and some very fine professional looking units are out there now... leaving me for dead really....

You will do some things different, we all do, thats why the pics are important, so folks can get ideas much better than mine... it is evolving a life of it's own out there... eg look at this.... his second one... http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8542&PN=1&TPN=11


.............oztules


Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: dom44 on August 30, 2016, 06:33:25 AM
thanks oztules I have been playing with inverts the last few years this EGS002 i have had a few for at least 2 years sitting in my pile always new it was a good little unit. I first came across it on a Chinese electronic forums from there i have gained a lot of knowledge, they are far more advanced when it comes to this stuff and working with power electronics, they use sheet copper to wind the primary on high frequency transformers, never seen that before on English speaking sites.
But i have to say using grid tie transformers on your part was genius I always loved the idea of recycling and you all of a sudden   made it within reach of most people.

only reason i want to change the drivers  is I found the IR2110's easy to destroy and i like the idea of keeping the amps away from the sensitive drive electronics.
Any chance of you giving a bit more information on how you test your FEt's  I have a batch of 100x IRFB4110 coming from china and could be useful information for some of us.

thanks Dom44
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on August 30, 2016, 05:02:15 PM
Jaymes,
here is pcb file for a compact power board I did. Your design explorer will open it. It is protel.

This is what it looks like
[attachimg=2]

.....oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: dom44 on August 30, 2016, 09:52:00 PM
smaller adapter board for chip
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: jaymes on September 19, 2016, 03:26:13 AM
Thank you so much i am happy,
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on September 19, 2016, 04:36:26 PM
There are three problems with that design.
1 two snubber resistors are under one of the heat sinks,  you can either put them on the under side or move them out a bit.

2. the resistor 5r6 next to the 10 pin outlet need to be moved or placed under the board as well..or interferes with the 10 pin socket..

3. the holes for the neg wires need a solder mask relief to allow soldering on the bottom side of the board... or you have to scrape off the solder mask to solder the wires onto.

 They are not show stoppers, but would be nice to fix up.

............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: dom44 on October 01, 2016, 06:52:04 PM
I have just come across this board on aliexpress and have ordered one for only $24 AU not bad value and here is the circuit i got from seller
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: dom44 on October 01, 2016, 06:54:31 PM
forgot the link 


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1PC-48V-4500W-Pure-Sine-Wave-Power-Frequency-Inverter-Bare-PCB/32722132280.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.0.HHmuec
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on October 07, 2016, 04:22:33 AM
Hey Guys

It's been a while since I've played around with the inverter. I basically finished the project then went overseas for a while and forgot about it all.

The new design makes for a very neat and compact unit. Its all controlled from an Arduino which has programmable current limits and dual thermocouples for monitoring heatsink and transformer.

I need to get some proper bus bars made up out of copper or aluminium to do real testing since the ones I am using now are too small and heat up when the current goes over 50 amps. 

Here's a quick vid of me testing the efficiency. It easily beats all of my switch mode inverters which I was quite surprised to find out. Who would have thought that old school transformers would beat switch mode in efficiency and durability  ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXYFTJ_3SKE
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on October 07, 2016, 12:02:27 PM
Nice compact unit Antman.

Did you try a few turns around the little torroid,?
I would expect a tranny that small would use a bit less idle current from my experiments

very nice.

Will we see the sketch for the arduino?


............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: peter on October 08, 2016, 07:12:06 PM
That inverter looks nice Antman.
Any chance I could get the pcb design files and make a board myself? Or maybe you want to sell bare boards?
(I prefer to buy one, actually..)
I like having a microcontroller to do the system control, this helps a lot when integrating this
into my solar stuff.

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: jaymes on October 09, 2016, 02:19:24 PM
Can i parallel these inverters to get more wattage
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on October 11, 2016, 02:24:56 AM
Oztules I have to set it all up again and test with some different toroids when I get time. Pretty sure I had it at around 8 watts at one stage.

Did you want to see the code for the arduino? It's pretty basic but I can post it if you want.

Peter thanks for the compliment. I have a few boards spare that I probably wont use. They're not soldered but. Do you have experience soldering SMT? Send me a PM

Jaymes I don't think paralleling the boards is possible. It would be possible to integrate have multiple mosfet drivers and extra mosfets but. With just the standard mosfets I'm sure you can push quite a bit of power through. How much power do you need?
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on October 11, 2016, 05:45:10 AM
Yes thanks Antman, it will help me with doing one for mine... or I might just use yours if does pretty much what I want if I may... not much point reinventing the wheel.... plus I am no hero at programming.... I shy away from it until I actually have to do it, then usually enjoy it, but i find it hard to get started.

My salt water RO was a case on point.. took months to get to do it. keep putting it off, then finally did it in a few days. I find it hard to start for some silly reason..


..........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on October 14, 2016, 05:51:34 AM
Hey OZ

Sorry for the late reply mate. I had to go through the sketch and comment so it is easier to understand. Please see attached.

I've been chatting to Peter since he also wants a board. I'm going to start a new build and add all the bits and pieces that everybody wants. Then I'll get a few assembled with the exception of the Mosfets and caps so people don't have to solder the SMT stuff. Then you can add whatever voltage mosfets and caps you need for your application.

In the coming days I'll compile a list of all the functions that are needed.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on October 14, 2016, 12:38:47 PM
Thanks Antman,.... nice and tidy and .... well everything mine woudln't be really.

.......oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on October 16, 2016, 03:18:13 AM
No worries OZ. Happy to help.

So I've spent a few hours making changes to the schematic so I can start modifying the board. Things I've done are

#Changed LCD from parralel to I2C. Much less wiring
#Added extra I2C port for other I2C devices like a real time clock and an external ADC I want to try
#Broken out all spare ports onto standard headers so they can all be accessed like a normal arduino
#Added diodes to the ADC ports so they cant be blown with over voltage
#Added an on board buck converter for the control circuit that accepts voltage up to 90 volts
#Cleaned everything up properly

Things I need to do are

#Work out the best way to add the Isolation transformer so there is no issue with earthing. I want to do this off board to save real estate. OZ do you have a schematic of how you did this? I was struggling to work it all out.
#Test using an external ADC to do the current and voltage measurements. I plan on using an ADS1115 16 bit ADC instead of the INA271 current sensor. The INA271 is really off when the board is drawing under 3 amps. Id love to be able to see the Idle current accurately and display efficiency on the LCD. I have an ADS1115 module in the mail from china but it is taking ages.
#Peter wants to be able to show all of the output readings through the Arduino. We can use a meter like the link below and either count pulses or communicate directly through RS485. We would be able to voltage, current, power factor, frequency and many more.

Does anyone else have any suggestions of things to add before I start routing it? The sky really is the limit with Arduino these days

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on October 16, 2016, 03:28:08 AM
Forgot to add the link...

Also I'm going to change the ports around so a NRF24l01 module can be added to talk to the device wirelessly. With the amplified version of this it can communicate up to 1 KM away.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/SDM220-Modbus-Single-Phase-DIN-Rail-Kwh-Energy-meter-Pulse-Output-Energy-Meter-RS485-Modbus-Communication/32442937847.html?ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_1_116_10065_117_10068_114_115_10069_113_10017_10080_10082_10081_10060_10061_10062_10056_10055_10054_10059_10078_10079_10073_10070_421_420_10052_10053_10050_10051,searchweb201603_4&btsid=a647789f-4e4a-4438-9a26-8d1aa0e6aa50
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on October 16, 2016, 04:44:52 AM
See pcb below
The  14v tranny goes into the diodes, into the divider of 7k5, and  1k8 and 500r trimmer... result is filtered with 4u7, and through a 100r to pin vfb with a little 104 cap as well.

[attachimg=1]

You already have too much  info for my ... lack of style... so I will stay out of that.... if I have volts and watts, I'm happy really...


.........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on October 16, 2016, 06:46:51 PM
Thanks OZ. I'll look into the tranny and modify my circuit to suit. I need to find a tiny transformer so I can fit everything on the board.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on October 17, 2016, 12:37:14 AM
I only used a tranny as I had them handy, and wondered how I was ever going to use them after 20 years or so.......

But an opto isolator will do just as well, and there is your space saving.



.........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on October 17, 2016, 12:44:24 AM
Hmmmm never used an opto isolator before. I'm guessing it would just go between the trim pot and VFB pin. Ill have to do some research into this. I still haven't fully worked out why the isolation is necessary but was going to sit down and work it all out properly.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on October 20, 2016, 04:57:42 AM
I've decided to go with a PCB mount transformer for the isolation since its rugged and I know it works from OZ's experience.

I havent done much with the board because I was waiting to get a ADS1115 ADC module in the mail. I want to use this for current measuring because it is so much more accurate than the Arduino nano. It can also measure current in both directions which will really come in handy. There will be spare ports for other shunts such as charge current.

All the experimenting has been on a NodeMcu which is a WIFI enabled device. I've been sending data to the cloud so I can read it remotely which is very cool.

My inverter creates terrible noise that drifts by around an amp on the arduino. I tried some rough software filtering at first but it didn't do much. After some reading I learned about some simple hardware filters. I just put a 10K resistor in series with the ADC port and added a 10 uf cap between ADC and GND. Noise is down to around 100ma. I'm sure if software filtering is added this can be brought down substantially. I'll probably go with this for current measurement in the final design. internet connectivity might have to wait till the next revision ;)
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: peter on October 21, 2016, 07:06:35 AM
Antman
have a look at http://www.analog.com/designtools/en/filterwizard/
Maybe play with a few high order filters. I liked the 3rd order filter but only because I wouldn't be building it.
The Analog design tool will help you choose more realistic but very good performers compared with the RC LP filter.

peter
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: noneyabussiness on October 24, 2016, 05:36:52 AM
Hey antman, try polling the adc numerous times (10- 20) and then average the results... a "for loop" is good for this.....

Eg.
for (int i; i = 0; i < 20; i++){
static int voltsinRaw = analogRead(adc1) ;
};

Then just divide the result by the test amount..

voltsinraw = voltsinraw / 20;

Another example is the official "smoothing"

https://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/Smoothing

I think that right... its late...
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on October 24, 2016, 04:03:05 PM
Peter

Thanks for the info on the filters. I've been testing the ADS1115 for the last couple of days on my Nodemcu by logging it to thingspeak. Voltage and current readings are more than stable enough without software filtering.

Noneyabussiness

I tried adding together 10 different ADC readings in a way more complicated way than you describe due to my lack of programming skills. It works very well with stable readings. I think i'll go ahead with the ADS1115 as the current and voltage monitoring device. Now I can move forward with the board design.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Antman on October 24, 2016, 05:26:43 PM
For those of you interested I started a new thread on the data logger I've been testing the ADS1115 with. Once finished they will be very handy to have for monitoring of solar systems. I've always wanted to know whats happening at home while I'm stuck at work. Now I can just log onto my phone and see everything in real time.

With the thingspeak interface you can even set it to send you a Tweet when your voltage drops to or reaches a certain level.

http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1204.0.html
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: noneyabussiness on October 31, 2016, 02:25:18 AM
Would any of you fine Gents/Ladies like me to do the code to control the eg8010 board via serial, via arduino... seems pretty straight forward. .. (lol famous last words...)??
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Madness on November 01, 2016, 03:50:14 AM
Hi noneyabussiness.

I would appreciate the serial connection to the EG8010, if nothing else it will be handy to be able to turn off the low voltage shut down for testing.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: noneyabussiness on November 03, 2016, 06:13:07 AM
Not sure if there is a "low voltage shutdown" off command, unless im reading the datasheet wrong.... you maybe could control the "VF " via serial and override the hardware one... it rises liner at 19.6mv per bit from lsb on the feedback command..u would ether have to do the binery math or hex to fool it to thinking its above the threshold. ... :-\ ill see what i can rig up...
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: noneyabussiness on November 04, 2016, 06:58:13 AM
Okay ... play file no. 1 ... had no end of dramas on figuring out why the simple commands wouldnt work... turns out you MUST have pin 6 (on/off) low for it to communicate ::) . There's two days there... anyhoo here is rough draft 1 if anybody interested. ..you can edit the "settings" by changing the relevant bit and i still haven't figured out why the serial monitor isnt sprewing the confirmation "byte"...
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Madness on November 05, 2016, 06:22:42 AM
These things can eat up some time, thanks for that, will be a little while before I find time to play with it.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: noneyabussiness on November 30, 2016, 08:36:30 PM
Okay play no.2...

Hey Oz, i think i discovered something of a "quiggle", i was having some feed back issues due to messy bench wiring(kept blinking "overcurrent" even though pin was grounded) so i attached the little lcd that comes with the egs002 board to give me feedback on what the chip was "seeing" (mind u it turned out to be overtemp, go figure) however with a 72 watt test bulb i fixed aforementioned problem but noticed that every time i would "lower" the output voltage slightly it would drift back up to 240 (instead of about 235)... what i noticed is that if the SCREEN said less than "220v" it would slowly drift up until it matched at least 220v and a few times a volt ish over and come back... big jumps it doesn't do it but i remeber u writing somewhere about the voltage changing at first startup, maybe this might have something to do with that, or im just seeing things and going crazy :o

And the software on/off seems VERY stable,  im not picking up any trailing pulses on scope...

Also i have not been able to catch the "confirmation byte" returned to the arduino successfully... i think it is a timing issue cause it is intermittent , ill keep at it...
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: noneyabussiness on December 01, 2016, 04:51:38 AM
sorry not sure what happend to last file :o
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: frackers on January 08, 2017, 04:13:01 AM
Does anyone have a schematic (not a board layout) for a bare bones EG8010 board that uses the IR2110S driver chips? One that avoids all the hassles with blowing FETs with the EGS002 board?

Just been tidying up the workshop and found a load of gear I got months ago to build a prototype inverter using a 30VA transformer (safety first!!), the idea being to trial it with EGS002, EG8010, Atmel AVR, STM32F1 and STM32F3.

Cheers

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: jexhed on January 14, 2017, 01:04:16 AM
Quote
I'm going to start a new build and add all the bits and pieces that everybody wants. Then I'll get a few assembled with the exception of the Mosfets and caps so people don't have to solder the SMT stuff. Then you can add whatever voltage mosfets and caps you need for your application.

Great work Antman / Oztules, any idea when these will be available ?
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on January 14, 2017, 04:50:03 AM
I don't make and sell anything, so it is not me. Perhaps send antman a PM.

Frackers, the 002 is fine if you don't use the current shut down.
On the backshed, a post by tinker has a diagram he has made up.

........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: 144VDC on January 14, 2017, 01:56:54 PM
Hi all,
I have been off grid for 40 yrs. I used a  12dc system for the first 20 yrs, but it requires large wires and switches and connections have to be perfect. If you use 120vdc, the current is reduced by a factor of 10 but the losses are reduced by a factor of 100. 20 yrs ago I went to a 144vdc system because most modern electronics rectify 120vac and get about 150vdc, so they will run directly from the nominal 144vdc (140-180vdc) with no modification. My solar panels, batteries and distribution system works at this voltage. I have a 144vdc input inverter for the few ac loads I have. Switching power supplies  that say 100-240vac will work on this voltage and are very efficient. Switches and breakers are the hard part. 144vdc arcs badly, but heavy duty switches on light loads work fine. Many 480vac breakers work on 144vdc. My system is ultra efficient and worked for many years using off the shelf equipment. But 144vdc input high wattage output inverters are hard to come by; so I planed to build my own but generating a pwn sine wave was holding me back and when I found the egs002 board on ebay, I got started putting it togather. I was looking for info on using the 002 when I ran across this thread. You guys have giving me some very useful info and ideas, thanks. I am using Fugi 2BMI75N-060 igbt modules and a Traid 2500va toroid transformer 100vac in 120vac out for a slight step up and isolation. The thing I am unsure of is the specs for the dc link (dc input) caps.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on January 14, 2017, 02:48:12 PM
3-5000uf will be enough to do 5kw or so at those voltages.

.........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: 144VDC on January 14, 2017, 03:51:38 PM
Thanks for the reply Oztules
I don't have any that large in my junk box. Have some 470uF that tested good after putting voltage on them for a few hours. Guess I'll buy some bigger caps. I like to experiment, so maybe I'll get some cheap ones and some with low esr or low impedance and monitor the temperature.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: rossw on January 14, 2017, 05:17:23 PM
Thanks for the reply Oztules
I'll get some cheap ones and some with low esr or low impedance and monitor the temperature.

The low ESR will probably help them handle transients, but since you're feeding them with DC, I don't expect them to have any appreciable temperature rise, since there should be so little ripple current. (But I could be wrong!)

(Completely different thing to running it off full-wave rectified mains!)
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on January 15, 2017, 03:40:11 AM
Ross... I thought that too.
On one of them I was frugal with the caps for testing... and after a few hours at 3kw, the 2 caps I  did use were very hot. Then used four, and they barely got warm.... not a linear thing somehow.


.........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: 144VDC on January 15, 2017, 11:29:03 AM
I think to start with I'll use the two 820uF caps I have and two 5uF film caps to help with high frequency. Then monitor the ripple voltage on the buss and the temps of the caps at different loads. I saw a 8600uF 300v on ebay for < $60US. I'll probably try that next.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: MadScientist267 on January 15, 2017, 06:35:39 PM
Yes, the "bypassing" of electrolytics is important to their longevity in this stuff. *Way* overlooked (possibly intentionally?) even in commercial versions of... everything.

It applies in either direction -  On the supply side, they're needed to help soften the blow that the lytics have to provide at each turn on cycle of the switching mosfets...

Likewise, on the output side (in the case of a DC supply), they're needed to catch the initial hit coming out of the rectification.

I make it a point to try to put at least one bypass cap across every electrolytic in everything I can, and it certainly improves both operating temperature and in turn, life span of the electrolytics. Tantalum for the lower voltage end of things, mylar film on the higher voltage stuff.

Inductors [typically found] between electrolytics simply aren't enough.

Also, as Oz's observations demonstrate, you're better off in terms of overall ESR and heat by using multiple smaller caps in parallel rather than fewer larger ones. This isn't to say you can't also have the larger caps, but putting them further away from the "front line" (but not excessively) and letting the smaller ones take the switching abuse will improve overall life.

You're dealing with 2 different types of transient in things like inverters - the higher frequency spikes for the switching itself, and "slower one-off" surges for things like starting motors and such. The larger electrolytics are much better suited for the latter.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: lighthunter on January 18, 2017, 10:49:06 PM
Oztules or clockman, it has been suggested to change gate drive resistor to 5r6 and diode, this for the 8010 and 002 only? does it also help original pj cntrl board on 48v?

I know some of you have your DC-AC inverters outside in sheds and various places. This winter has been a bit colder than the past few and my basement temp fell to 50's as i no longer use gas furnace jst hot water from owb. The pj inverter is in basement and i lost 2 FETs on 2 different occasions. Decided i  better do something about it. The PJ starts up from PLC signal each day at 9 am. I noticed lights would flicker a few times immediately after PJ starts up. This i concluded was shoot through in H bridge, very bad for FETs. I took 4w incandescant and put inside inverter case above circuit booard. Now there are no startup issues
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ClockmanFrance on January 19, 2017, 03:19:39 AM
Hi lighthunter,

Pj do a modular board for their 15000W, ie they have sub boards for the 4 x 6off FET,s.

The 8000W PJ board, only 4 caps, was originally there early 15000W board, and is what I designed our New Power board around. But this early PJ board needed careful assembly and good soldering, something sometimes that PJ was lacking with QC.

I have a couple of 15000 PJ's with the FET sub boards. These seem to work well if the PCB's are conformal coated. PJ boards seem to come covered in solder splatter and flux remains. So all need washing and coating properly.
We discussed on here, somewhere, that the PJ resistor ladders with humidity, etc, tended to wander a bit.

One of my 15000W PJ boards OzInverter sits outside in a cupboard attached to a shed, so it gets everything.
However, that particular OzInverter never gets switched off.

If I recall, 'Oztules' got good results when he did a swap out on a PJ board, and replaced the PJ control board with a OzControl board with the 8010 chip, and modified a PJ Power board.
 
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: lighthunter on January 19, 2017, 05:10:56 PM
Great info! yeah the never shuting off idea would eliminate condensation and temperature drift issues and no doubt there are many off-grid systems that run 24/7.
Thanks for your valuable ideas.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: IoniCCC on February 12, 2017, 09:47:19 PM
Ross... I thought that too.
On one of them I was frugal with the caps for testing... and after a few hours at 3kw, the 2 caps I  did use were very hot. Then used four, and they barely got warm.... not a linear thing somehow.


.........oztules

@oztules, i get a problem with my EGS002. My board always blinking twice, even i short pins 1 and 2 to the ground. Any idea?

Thanks.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: Madness on February 13, 2017, 01:43:09 AM
2 blinks is over current as per the manual "Overcurrent:Blink twice, off for 2 seconds, and keep cycling"

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on February 13, 2017, 04:24:23 AM
Yes 2 blinks is current.... measure the voltage between pin 3 and 14 on the 8010. it should be zero if you have shorted 1 to 2 on the 002 board.

You may have an earthing problem there somewhere, or the 8010 chip is toast if there is no potential between 3 and 14 on the 8010, and the thing still flashes twice.

If the voltage on pin 14 is over .5 volts with respect to pin 3 ( gnd) it will trigger an over current condition. It it triggers and is less than .5v... the chip is gone.


...........oztules

Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: IoniCCC on February 13, 2017, 07:37:31 AM
Hey Oztules! , Thanks to reply.

I measure the pin 3 and 4, and get 4.65v. Okay. Then, i propositally short these pins, and try to power up the egs again. It worked!

But, i cant find the reason why the pin 3 has no ground.

Anyway, thanks for the advice.
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: IoniCCC on February 13, 2017, 08:06:11 AM
I revised all grounds on the circuit, and i cant undestand why the pin 14 has 4,65v. If i short this pin directly with the ground, the board starts.

any ideias, guys? ;(
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: IoniCCC on February 13, 2017, 08:37:26 AM
Finally! I have checked out the resistor through this line, in this case R33 and R7, and R7 has a problem with this solder.

I soldered r7 again, and voilá, it worked again! Thanks everyone!
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: IoniCCC on February 13, 2017, 10:16:30 AM
I have one more question :

Can i replace FR107 for UF4007?
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on February 13, 2017, 02:13:37 PM
yes. use the uf4007.

Good you found the cause, and learnt a bit more about how it works..... thats the best thing about failure :)


...............oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: IoniCCC on February 13, 2017, 02:54:04 PM
Greetings, oztule!

You have any formula to calculate the capacitor for low pass filter LC, on the output?
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ss1 on April 06, 2017, 02:51:57 PM
 :) ;) :D Soon upload AD files ...
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: oztules on April 06, 2017, 03:30:07 PM
Nice..... have you built it yet?

........oztules
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ss1 on April 06, 2017, 03:41:13 PM
Nice..... have you built it yet?

........oztules


Sent to manufacture. After test i will report :)
Title: Re: testing the egs002 inverter board
Post by: ss1 on April 20, 2017, 01:04:05 PM
PCB's are here ... But not tested yet ...   8) I found a mistake like you see in the third pic. R22 goes directly to base of Q3