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Project Journals => User Journals => Oztules => Topic started by: oztules on October 11, 2015, 07:19:18 pm

Title: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on October 11, 2015, 07:19:18 pm
Well it has been a while, and a few have been built from France to Queensland and every where in between from the looks of it, and this is too little too late really.

All the info is in the previous posts in several sites... it is all out there now... so this is different to what I would have done months ago... it is just a simple... this is how I built this one kind of thing, and nothing new will be here I suspect..... thats the problem with lassitude or lack of time.. or both.

So we will start with the boards you can buy off the shelf, with a brief explanation.

These are not the best in the world by any means, but they are the cheapest very good cards you can get hold of easily, and cobble together a world class system

Much has been written about power jack crap, and a good amount of it is true.... but just as every compulsive  lair can tell the truth sometimes, there are a few jems in their inventory that deserve  credit where credit is due.... and total stuff ups too.

The Good:

They managed to stumble upon a generic board that seems to be in China in a lot of unheard of brands. They are the same basically as the W7 power star cards in nearly all aspects.... except the reporting to the outside world stuff..... lots of colored leds for the W7 style units, and a large digital interface on the later power jacks... which seem to be fairly useless... but I guess they tried. It reports incorrectly, and half of it is useless information..... better without it really...

The odd thing about these boards, is that coupled with a decent transformer, they are capable of showing off against the best in the world as far as just being a solid powerful inverter is concerned. They are amazingly powerful, and tough, and will drive any load thrown at them if your transformer and battery regime can handle it.... truly remarkable performance, and second to none that I have witnessed.

The Bad:

Just about everywhere they can mess it up, they have done so. They supply transformers capable of reasonable performance, but rate them astronomically high.... just sad.... at least halve or more to get a real idea of their power....... I say more, as they never build the same inverter twice... they change transformers willy nilly, use one or two for the same specs, then  supply from one to three fans to paper over the transformer swindles.... it is just sad.

Their QC is very marginal.... if it exists at all, and the first thing you do is go over their product very carefully, to find loose connections, and foreign matter left in the box... screws etc. You have no idea what will be in the box either. I have seen at least 4 versions of 8kw units turn up on the island... all different. The common thing seems to be trying to be cheap... and using as small a transformer as they dare, and then try to cool it as best they can to get some performance out of it...... in a lot of instances for particularly 12v units, this is probably good enough, as folks with them probably don't have the battery to bother it for long anyway, but in the 24v and particularly 48v range most folks can drive them hard for extended periods,..... and they will fall down from over heat.

The programming is woeful for the battery charger inter change.... not from inverter to grid sync, that is good and smooth transition, but from grid cut off to inverter stand alone .... it will blow up the fets from reactance if you have decent transformers in it... so if you roll your own transformer.... you MUST MUST MUST turn off unit before turning off grid power to it... or you will kill it spectacularly...... just a matter of time when the cross over is near zero in the cycle. The original W7 styles had lossy transformers, and so could stand the inrush currents.... but not  with big low leakage  torroids

The inrush current to the caps in the 15kw power boards will blow up 190 amp overloads just turning it on... so beware when you hook batteries to it, it will blow off chunks of the terminal.... so touch the nuts, not the threads with the lugs. ( I use a 15 ohm resistor for a few seconds, then there are no sparks.)

So with that in mind, we move on and build  inverters that so far have been faultless for over a year over several sites ( there are a few of them about the place over here). They all drive large loads during the days including hot water services of 3.6kw while running the houses with water pumps, kettles, washing machines and anything else at the time.. so going into the 5-7kw range during the daylight hours is normal.

They also reverse grid tie very nicely, and up to 6kw has been seen going into them for short periods...... battery banks are far and few between that can absorb in the 200 amp range for long @50-60v , so if you want to drive them that hard you will need to have big AC loads, as the grid tie does NOT repeat NOT care what happens to the batteries, and will not regulate. More likely, it will push the battery hard until it goes up in voltage, and this will in turn absorb less power, so the excess will drive up the AC voltage, and at about 258v it will shut down the grid tie unit from over voltage... unless you interfere first with some other way to regulate the grid tie.

So thats what we have to work with. We can make a very useful inverter that will run a decent sized household without costing much more than $500 ( even in France.... buying the cores from England). Other comparable  units capable of the same performance with the same idle characteristics are very much more than that.... probably 10-20 times in fact...... The W7 powerstar and copies...... inverters are well built, and have almost no bad habits except for the 5kwh/day idle losses... so if you have solar to spare, that may be a better way to go too.... but they will use up 5kwh/day, and the fans runs full time. There are some units like that here as well, and have performed flawlessly for over three years in their native state.... they were only $700 for 6kw and 18kw surge... very good units too.

So this is what we want to end up with:

[attachimg=1]

And this is what we start with. A set of 15kw 48vdc 220v boards. They can be found on ebay, and are very much more expensive than when I first started out with these kritters... there are an awful lot sold since I asked them to put them up for sale. They have also since read some stuff on the net and improved their idle currents significantly..... so we have changed some of their poor behavior.


[attachimg=2]

The newer boards have a black wire coming out from nowhere as seen here..... it goes to neg terminal, along with all the other black wires coming from the power card.... and no, I have not bothered to find out what t does.... my originals do not have it.

[attachimg=3]

Here is a pic of the black neg leads, and a side on of the pins in the 20 pin header. If you buy the set, it comes complete with the start board that uses 12 of those pins. We can also see the later model replaceable fet boards... neat idea too.

[attachimg=4]

Here is the front of the board, showing the driver sub board, and the CT and the transformer output interface to the control board.

[attachimg=5]

Here are the pin outs of interest if you don't get the control cables supplied ( corrected by Glen at thebackshed.com )

[attachimg=6]

While we are on this board, we need to stop another wicked fault that will shut us down every day, and that is the propensity of the board to track the current peaks instead of the mean, in oder to trigger the over voltage function..... we use a 5v6 zenner diode like this across R14 10m resistor. I have heard that a 1m will do well, but I like to make sure it will not shut off due to spurious voltages... that pisses me off.

[attachimg=7]

Here are the donor grid ties. Aero sharp 1.5 units

[attachimg=8]

And here with the new guts for it

[attachimg=9]

next section  as we are up to 9 pics now.


.....................oztules










Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on October 11, 2015, 08:38:03 pm
First we need to make all the changes to the stainless steel cases. I want 4 fans, cut outs for the 180 amp o/load switches, mounting for the output o/load switch and a few other things.... so we do the metal work... mine looks like this for the fan and switches on one side.

[attachimg=1]

These things are stainless steel, and hard to drill unless you use sharp tooling... be warned.
I use a 5" grinder with 1mm cutting blades to cut out the fan holes, and the o/load cut outs.
And from the inside our handy work looks like this

[attachimg=2]


Next we mount the boards. I used two pieces of hard wood of the correct length to give me something to screw the main board too. It can just be seen there. I also decided to use the positive terminal on the top of the unit to the main heat sink ( where pos goes). It is the high side switched heat sink, and carries the 12 fets on it. The low sides switches have two separate heat sinks, and each heat sink takes an input to the main transformer.



[attachimg=3]

Now we can see the unit with the AC output ( two heavy black wires at the top right on the control card.

The inductor ( three turns on a E65 ferrite former is also connected to one of the heat sinks of the low side, and terminates on a stand off ready to take the transformer primary. The other primary goes direct to the other low side heat sink.

The fans are seen, as is the AC o/load and the DC tripple 63A o/load switch. The Neg terminal is on the left side wall ( bottom of the unit). This will stop me from shorting out the spanner from the plus to the minus.... they are 2 feet apart on opposite ends of the inverter... that should stop me from modifying my tools using the splat method.

Neg goes from the terminal on the case to the main switch then to the stand off next to the connector wall, then to the 6 leads from the power card. So thats pos connected, neg connected, AC connected from the card output to the o/load and neutral is hanging loose and not seen at the moment... I am attempting to keep this one neat (ha ha).......

And a view from the other end of the box.

[attachimg=4]

The fans are now connected in series for 48v with a dropping resistor, and the fan controller I built. Their fan control is terrible.
A note at this point, they will need to see a fan tacho feedback line. This I will supply by using a 2" fan with tacho wire, it won't be used to cool anything, just to satisfy the computer. All cooling will be done by my fan system.

The transformer AC goes direct to a massive terminal block. From there the neutral will go to the output and a sample top the control card. The active will go to the to the control card, through the CTtansformer, and back to the output o/load.. through 4mm wires

[attachimg=5]

Now we can see the active come to the board, through the CT and back to the o/load. The neutral goes to the board, but nowhere else.... I am only using it to give the controller a sample of voltage, but the current goes through the CT for the active.

[attachimg=6]

Here is the fan controller

[attachimg=7]

and circuit board

[attachimg=8]

and with it's bottom on

[attachimg=9]

There is also a 25 amp 240v amphol fitting on the bottom for the AC out.


................oztules





Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on October 11, 2015, 09:32:56 pm
Were on the final stretch.....
Here we have gotten a sub front... never tried this before, but sick of having too many wires connected to a removable panel... this time we take the front off and no wire are disturbed...


[attachimg=1]


So it looks like this now

[attachimg=3]

And thats pretty much it I think....


....................oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: Wolvenar on October 11, 2015, 09:46:13 pm
What more can be said than.. VERY nice!
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on October 12, 2015, 03:08:01 pm
Here is my 'OzInverter'.

[attachimg=1]

Standard 600mm by 400mm and 300mm deep, IP sealed metal enclosure. It had a dent on the door so it came at a good price.
The Inverter is wall mounted, with an extra support bottom bracket as it weighs 54kgs....... :o

[attachimg=2]

The brass sheeting is my Ducting as I have separate air flows for the Torroid and the Boards, so I have 5 fans, with the 2 on the Boards, push pull, controlled by Oztules gentle Fan circuit.

Its been running the last few months, and is now having its final fitting, ie, its meters etc.

Oztules I have not had issues regards that zenner on R14. Should I do the mod anyway?

I have used very flexible 50mm/2 cable inside for connecting to the boards, but even so the boards are big and only have 6 fixing points around the outside, I did wonder about centre board support. Any comments ?

Yes spanner on the battery terminals is not good, so I fitted my insulated terminals High in the top of the case.

Battery cables not connected, but better photo of what's inside.

[attachimg=3]

Thanks again Oztules for your excellent notes and helpful comments.   :)  :)

 
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on October 12, 2015, 05:23:53 pm
Not bothered by the center board support, as the heat sinks give it structural support,and make the board rigid front to back.

If the 5v6 is not warranted, leave well enough alone. there has been no sign of necessity on two of my big board conversions either.

How did it go for you performance wise.... does it tick all the boxes,..........have you pushed it hard, ............tried all sorts of loads.....and did you get to play with the reverse grid tie aspects yet..... and most importantly, did it match up favorably with the big ticket unit...SMA. ( ie  has your wife threatened to shoot me for wasting your time and her money?)  ::).
Mine has been flawless for a long time now

...............oztules

Ps here is another effort from Glen at the back shed. 3kw nominal. Single transformer from inspire 2.5 inverter... no rewind either, his coils were inside out, so only needed to release the primary from the outside, and had 240v coils ready to go....dammit....

[attachimg=1]

http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7800&PN=1&TPN=3

I believe a few more conversions are in the pipe there also......


Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on October 13, 2015, 04:24:49 am
Forgot to give a picture of it actually working....... :-[

Here we are testing at 4kw.... using a 2kw jug, and the fan heater that I built for panel construction a few years ago. Temp ran a 15C above ambient, fans at about 1/2 speed stable. It seems to turn on at 34.5c and can't hear the fans. By the time it gets to 35.5 it is running fairly briskly, and easily keeps the unit at 36c while running the 4kw Ambient is about 20-21c..... will have to load it up further to get the fans to max out, but that will have to wait until daylight, no point burning high power at night... batteries at 50.5 while running the 4kw... and ever so slowly dropping to 50.1
and the killer solar panel maker...

[attachimg=3]



[attachimg=4]



it works as advertised, and will do 100kwh in the next week to burn it in.


.....................oztules

PS ... no I don't know why that happened, and I cant seem to stop it either :o
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: RFburns on October 13, 2015, 04:29:48 am
Nice work! Oztules . On a related note I have ordered a couple of boards and the seller is very insistant that I provide a picture of my inverter (which I dont have as its a work in progress  :) ) so that they can provide the correct model of boards  even though I have explained that I will be using my own transformer; has anyone else had this ?. Stu
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on October 13, 2015, 04:40:39 am
What size are you after Stu.

I have not had that problem.

Shoot a personal message to OTW, and he will probably be able to sort it out. He seems to have an "in" with Cher there, and solves most problems apparently... ie gets stuff sent to countries they would not normally  etc etc..... or use pictures of my boards.

I can see their point, some have extra sensors, some have the extra black wire... which can confuse the neophytes out there etc.... but OTW should be able to get things moving.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on October 13, 2015, 06:49:45 am
I just recently ordered and received another set of new 15kW boards.

Shocking...... I have got the BUG.     ;D

These folk ....  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171760626915?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=470713282062&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171760626915?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=470713282062&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
also asked for a photo of my Inverter so I sent them these 3 pics of my July obtained boards.

[attachimg=1]

 and

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]


Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on October 13, 2015, 07:13:02 am
It's a sickness.. I have them all over the place now... reckon I could run a village... keep wanting to do just one more..... in case.......I don't know in case of what, they don't seem to fail......... but nice to create another.
I have one set of 15kw boards left... then it's cold turkey........ or the egs8010 or whatever they are... that would be interesting as hell.

Some control cards do not fit some main boards... the ten pin ribbon is back to front and different place... so thats why they probably need to know if you order one or the other.... but both... you think they could give you a set.....

I still wonder at all those wires on your boards... mine have none :o


.................oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: RFburns on October 13, 2015, 02:51:09 pm
Thanks Clockman I will send these off and see if I get a result otherwise Oztules has given me a lead and I will follow that up. Stu
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on October 13, 2015, 03:05:55 pm
Driver schematic for Stu of the pj and W7 .

[attachimg=1]

Don't get much simpler than that.

......oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on October 13, 2015, 03:16:33 pm
Here is my second set of PJ 15kW boards I received End of September 2015. Rev 2.1

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

I have a few more bits with the second set, that's posh! .........

Those extra wires have gone on this set.

Yes, oztules I read that bit about those other Control boards, very interesting. But I note that you were not that pleased with the way it was achieving the result. PCB seemed as cheap as chips though?

 And having another Inverter control board arrangement is always a useful standby.

Now you have got me at it.......      8)

Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on October 13, 2015, 04:07:29 pm
You can buy the EG8010 chip itself for a dollar on alibaba.... and looking at the circuits, the chip and a crystal is where I would start.

The world loves the IR high low side driver chips.... and they are probably right.
I have some and have used them, they work. and work adequately.
My designs are crap, as are my layouts......... so I am more likely to suffer from noise injection I expect, and so don't like common earth drivers, as noise loops are hard to stop when you start to drive high currents around the place.

I am more inclined to use isolated pwm supplies, ( best to build your own 3 or 4 output using 3842 etc)  so there is no chance of inter-modulation problems.... even if you make a crappy layout... so I am more likely  to have a decent circuit, but with poor engineering.... I am not an EE, just a hack out of his depth........ so would rather just get the chip, and 3-4 isolated outputs, and drive things from there..... makes it more idiot proof.

Down side is that the chips are surface mount...... and my eyes are not getting any younger, so will see where I end up with this.

Oddly enough, the PJ uses this same topology, which might explain why you can use the same cards for 1kw to 15kw with 60kw surges.... and it is still stable as a house. I really do marvel at just how honest the boards are.... they just work.... almost no matter how $#!+ty your add ons are.



...............oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: RFburns on October 14, 2015, 01:33:29 am
yes that is a nice simple drive set up! thanks for posting that . Stu
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on October 15, 2015, 02:31:28 pm
Oztules,  This driver board, EGS002 EG8010 + IR2110,  was mentioned in your long thread....... and was running a 3kW Inverter,   .... http://www.lz2gl.com/power-inverter-3kw/ (http://www.lz2gl.com/power-inverter-3kw/)

And you commented....... Sept 2015.....

"Not sure of their thinking , but they made it work. Would like to have seen a scope of the driver signal on the cro. ( at the gate source resistor). It  looks a bit over the top for the drivers, and I'm not sure if it is warranted..... or even better than direct drive from the drivers...... I seem to use loads more copper... wondering at the heat in those windings at power for too long.

It is an interesting approach. If the switching is vastly improved ( and it was good just with single bipolar totems), then it may make up for their high Rds on. Theirs is 10 times higher than the 4110's... so 10 times the losses, and less of them... more losses.... at least they have half the input capacitance.

So I think they have done brilliantly... but thinking the Chinese PJ can show them a few things too.

 If I was to test this way, I would use a pj power board driven direct..with feedback.......... and then test a pair of isolated power supplies and totems or opto's for the high side and see if there is any advantage in not using the boards output as is.

There are a few (EG8010)  on my bench from a few years ago... have not touched them as yet..... struggling to see why at the present..... as I have too many inverters laying around from experiments so far. ... may have to try it out of curiosity one day..... but not like them.

But the PJ boards are pricing themselves much higher now .... 45 dollar boards are now near 100, and power cards are expensive too now.... but gee they are still good value..... used to be $179 for complete board set........ sigh....  ..........oztules"


Any further info/comments on this possible route into the future.

[attachimg=1]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-AC-Pure-Sine-Wave-Inverter-Driver-Board-EGS002-EG8010-IR2110-Driver-Module-/141799468112?hash=item2103e82c50 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-AC-Pure-Sine-Wave-Inverter-Driver-Board-EGS002-EG8010-IR2110-Driver-Module-/141799468112?hash=item2103e82c50)
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on October 16, 2015, 01:07:17 am
It has the feel of something happening in the not too distant future..... may have to rope Stu into this for support  yet.

Does not seem too difficult to achieve the same thing... but still the costs involved with the main boards... big bit of glass, and 6 big caps and 24 fets.. so could probably run up to $100 by the time it is done... then the all important transformer.... which you have solved for all time... you can buy off the shelf the torroids themselves of what ever size you choose... thats damn handy too.... the chip costs a dollar or so, and yet is the most important ingredient.


.................oztules


Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: RFburns on October 16, 2015, 03:49:14 am
Oztules I will be happy to support with whatever I can (and have ordered a couple of these boards as mentioned else where), on the transformer front this company was the company that made the Aerosharp transformers http://eaglerise-electric.com/product-2-1-2-toroidal-inductor-en/146947 (http://eaglerise-electric.com/product-2-1-2-toroidal-inductor-en/146947) I have not contacted them but for anyone wanting a transformer this maybe worth a look (if you cant find ex grid ties). Keep in mind freight will be expensive and I dont know if they supply in single units; but you will be able to order it wound with what you want. Other wise Ebay has core material http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Toroidal-laminated-core-for-AC-power-transformer-3000VA-wind-your-own-/171264408352?hash=item27e0277b20:m:mbTvFs9YPZTl4k-SAdUEbUg (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Toroidal-laminated-core-for-AC-power-transformer-3000VA-wind-your-own-/171264408352?hash=item27e0277b20:m:mbTvFs9YPZTl4k-SAdUEbUg) .Stu
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on October 17, 2015, 02:23:31 am
Good find on the core material for folks in the USA, clockman found cores for europe, and inspires and aero sharps for aust.

Ordered a few boards of eg8010 to play with, and looking at different technologies for the boards.

No idea how I will proceed from here or when, but am currently unwinding a few aero 3kw transformers to their cores.... hard work indeed... need a tranny when i build it.


............oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on October 17, 2015, 03:15:15 am
Torroid cores in Europe.

I got mine from this UK company, and yes they send to Europe. 

http://www.airlinktransformers.com/toroidal_cores/ros217/ (http://www.airlinktransformers.com/toroidal_cores/ros217/)

[attachimg=1]

The 230mm Outside dia, 100mm hole size and 70mm thick seems to be their biggest, and they have them in stock. 17.3kg each.......... :)

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

So I will put 2 of these together and enjoy my winter time, £170 GBP.

 I have the 1.8mm dia copper for 4off 120 turns.
 
Some 18mm/ 3/4 inch wide mylar film, about 600 meters required, (yes I added up what i used, sad).

 I have Epoxy resin so all I need is 8 meters of 75mm/2 primary cable for my 14 turns, and yippee I have a 10kW jobby.

Although my Mrs and my boys are now looking at me sideways when I mention the 'OzInverter', so might have to sneak away to my workshop/studio and snuggle up, keep sshhh, haha.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: RFburns on October 17, 2015, 05:08:42 am
Nice work Clockman, I have seen some Russian core material on the bay from time to time to -dont know what the quality is like ;the ebay link I put up has a handy calculator for approximate wire length required to. Stu
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on December 31, 2015, 10:25:51 am
Hi
i seen this topic and is really interesting
is a good idea to use the PJ power board for a inverter. do you use the control board as well?
i had a look at the toroidal core 230x100x70,  this is 45.5cm/2
will be enough for a 5kw transformer?
i have seen that clockman have used the toroidal core 190x90x60mm what is 30cm/2 , so 2 of them are 60cm/2.
i have a dilema, there is 114 turns for 230v right? and there is 1.8mm wire for 10A .... in a 60cm/2 toroid core for 230v, there is 2.0175 turns/volt. and  2.0175 * 14turns = 28.2V ....
how exactly do you calculate the winding?
if i`ll buy a toroidal core 230x100x70 and i want to make the transformer 24v to 230 or maybe 2x24 (probabbly in the future i`ll use 48v) how many turns do i need?
clockman did you noticed the 50cm/2 toroid core : http://www.airlinktransformers.com/toroidal_cores/ros211/
10kg weight? only? that will be ok for a 5kw inverter?
thank you
Happy New Year everyone
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on December 31, 2015, 01:21:08 pm
Hi MarNet.

"230x100x70,  this is 45.5cm/2
will be enough for a 5kw transformer?"

I found that the AirLink toroid cares 190 x 90 x 60, 2off doubled up, ran 4.5kW very satisfactory for a good period of time, but warmed up and needed cooling well. This OzInverter works well here and does the job.
So at 60cm/2 core, 100mm x 120mm section, I found that the core should have given with 14 turns primary about 30v, what we were aiming for.  However it turned out 28.2v, which is okay and oztules commented about better headroom for the toroid on saturation. I think?

So my No 2, 8kW OzInverter, is having the 230 x 100 x 70, 2off stacked cores, giving me a good rectangular block of core so simplifying copper use and loss, but giving me a 90cm/2 of core, 130mm x 140mm section.
It also gives me that 100mm dia hole in the middle that gets my copper secondary and 14 turns of primary to sit in there neat and tidy, although I may go up to 75mm/2 thick for the primary.

"how exactly do you calculate the winding?"

 'Frackers' has been studying the data on toroids, says his "head hurts", but oztules has the real working knowledge with his creations.

 "the 50cm/2 toroid core" ...... 220.140.125mm, 80mm x 125mm section, "10kg weight? only? that will be ok for a 5kw inverter?"
Speaking with my limited experience of cores and the PJ toroids, I doubt if one toroid these dimensions would get 5kW without some serious cooling. Double cores might be good but you are using more copper as the centre hole is a big diameter. But also with this size the core section is not optimal.

Any way I am sure Oztules will comment further.

Pic shows my 2 off stacked/joined 190mm x 90mm x 60mm cores, giving me the 120mm height and 100mm x 120mm section. My observations make me understand that its all about optimizing the core Mass effeciently.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on December 31, 2015, 03:46:33 pm
Hi Clockman,
i have seen your toroidal core is nice. anyway how much was the postage fee from UK ?
is 60cm/2
the 220x140x125 is 50cm/2
the 230x100x70 is 45.5cm/2
won`t be enough for 5kw transformer?
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on December 31, 2015, 04:11:40 pm
Delivery to France, Europe, EEC.  for 2off cores 190mm x 90mm x 60mm, £92 plus VAT.   Airlink wound them to that size as a special within 7 days, weight was 20kgs, delivery price was £32 plus VAT.

Its the doubling up the cores that gives the best results for the OzInverter.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: dalek on December 31, 2015, 06:17:33 pm
Just something to think on.  Power companies put their transformers in mineral oil.  It helps insulate the windings but mostly it helps move the heat out.  For those that really heat up, a pump with a small radiator could be used, I guess. 

Just something that hit me when I read the post about heat.  Heat may not be the only problem tho. 
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 01, 2016, 05:55:57 am
i can`t wait until monday
i`ll call this company to see if the toroidal core 220x140x125mm is only 10.81 kg and why. should be around 20kg.
if is just a mistake, i`ll buy that
clockman your transformer is 28 to 230 vac correct?
but the 15kw power board is 48vdc ... how did you managed that?
one more thing, wat type of mofsets are in the 15k board and how many of them?
i`m asking that because for the 15k inverters they said that the inverter can deliver 60kw for a short time, 10 seconds or so
my system is 24v system and i`m thinking about the 24v 8kw board ... or maybe 6kw board.
will work without control board?
thank you
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on January 01, 2016, 11:18:04 am
As I Understand it, oztules will probably correct me here, PowerJack designed their boards to run at an 8 to 1 ratio. 230 /8 = 28.75. This was confirmed when I took a 48v PowerJack toroid apart, so we want a 8 to 1.
 
48vdc is what we design this particular OzInverter for, but remember we might go down to 47v and up as high as 61v depending on the batteries state of charge, we therefore have a bit of headroom.

I Understand if you use a 24v supply, then you need some serious amounts of Primary thickness.

The PJ control board is matched to the PJ power board, YES you do require the Control board, it has the 50HZ oscillator and other stuff on it.

Oztules has done some fair testing on the PJ FET's and they do the job, ......... "Even reject 4110 from China for 50cents a piece have better than .009R as a general observation, and thats as good as it gets for the 140Ns10, more typically .012R.
You can get 4110 in 247 package too f you want to pay a lot more. I have tested these at less than .003R... but you pay as fortune for them too... and no gain that I can see practically.
If the board is running fine, the 4110 will peak past 20000w... and still survive happily, so not much to improve really. If there is a driver glitch, then nothing will save them "
 
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 01, 2016, 11:47:33 am
4110 power dissipation is max 370w
The140Ns10 power dissipation is maximum 450w :)
PJ LF8000w is advertised to have a maximum peak of 24kw...
This is the reason why i asked what type of transistors are on the board and how many of them.
I have burned 2 24v invertets with a 600w water pump. Now i bought a 2500w with 5000w peak for the same pump...
I don't want anymore headache,  that's why i want to build this inverter.
Any way you can check the 15kw main board output power?
I just want to know if is 28v...

http://m.ebay.ie/itm/141234579284 that will be good for core wrapping?  I mean to seal the bobine?
Sorry for that many questions but i want to build one :)
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 01, 2016, 12:51:53 pm
I mean bobbin*
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on January 01, 2016, 02:42:03 pm
The 8:1 thing is a product of head room and the properties of a sine wave. Our 240vAC is really 320v with .7071duty cycle... to get our 240v rms ac.

So to make 240v ac from a DC source we need to handle the 320v part of the curve as well...... so our DC side needs to be .7071 of the expected AC wave generated in it or for 48v about 48X.7=33v.... so we need at least as low as a 33v primary to get to the peaks needed to make the sine wave....... now with losses in the switch, wiring, sags to cover high power surges etc, we need another 15% safety margin so we are reasonably assured of getting our 240vrms at all times.

So now we can see why we are using about 8:1 for our transformer. We are really winding a 48Vdc primary (30 odd volts AC rms sort of thing) to make  320v peak ac or 240v AC rms. ( the rms is the root mean square... which is equivalent to  the DC heating value..... so the power in 320vpeak ac sine is equal to 240vDC in raw heating power ( no power factor)... or 240vac as we call it for the mains. If you rectify and filter... you will measure 320vdc.

Power in the PJ. 4110 will easily deliver 8kw if you have 24 of them @ 48v system..... it will run 4kw loads all day if you supply your own transformer, and cooling... and way beyond 10kw for shorter runs. 8kw seems to be ok for 20-30mins ON MINE..... mine has it's own cooling circuits, and big transformers.

As an example, it was very hot here last few days... 33C, and yet the inverter transformer ran at 60C and the heat sinks at 38c while running the hot water (2500w) for a few hours. No fan on the tranny, and 5 inch push pull on the heat sinks, and ran the 1.5kw water pump for an hour or so at the same time. surprisingly low heat sink temp.

I think because it is mounted vertically in a tall enclosure ( with venting top and bottom), so the natural convection is enhanced by the fans.... but why ever it is, it is better than the one I built with horizontal board fixture.... that would probably be in the higher 40's with the same environment.

The boards are good... pj figures and design.... not so much

They are cheap for a reason.... thankfully easy to rectify.


..........oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 01, 2016, 03:09:16 pm
Thanks for the answer oz
My system is 24v, I'm thinking to get the 6kw or 8kw board.
I only need a 3-4 kw pure sine with a peak of 8k let's say.  I use it for water pumps. If the pump is 1kw, i need a safe 7-8 kw to start it.  And if i spend the money, let make it counts.
I'm thinking about 40-45cm square yoroodal core with secondary of 3x1.8mm wire. 1.8mm wire can deliver 10.5A, at 230v is 2,3kw so i can have a spoke of 7-8 kw right? And a decent 2-3kw(maybe 4) running.
What do you think?
Thanks again for the answer. 
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 01, 2016, 03:18:26 pm
So you have 24 mofsets x 370w dissipation power in a 15kw board. That means 8.8kw maximum capacity.  Where is the rest of 6.2kw? Pj warrantee 15kw right? :) And they warantee 60kw peak. Wooow :)
I see why you get 15k boards for 6k inverter.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on January 01, 2016, 05:54:27 pm
No.......
In theory, a single 4110 can carry 150amps@100v... so a single one can actually do 15kw on it's own

Practice is different, those skinny legs can't handle 100 amps continuous, apparently the silicon can, as it has a resistance of only .003 ohms.... so at 100 amps it will drop E=IR or 100x .003 or .3v losses@100amps.. so the dissipation will be W=ExI or 100 x .3... or only 30 watts.. so that leaves over 340 watts of dissipation spare.

Can you see that the dissipation figures are not the power handling figures, the 370w is the figure it can safely dissipate in losses..... not throughput.

It's losses is  the Rds on in ohms  (.003-.006 for 4110) x the current flowing through it... these losses are dissipated in the mosfet and heat sink.

Switching losses are added to the IR losses,( and in anything I build usually outweigh the resistive losses hands down). Getting the switching losses down is a science unto itself... black science almost, add in parasitic oscillations and lots of other gremlins, and we have our work cut out to keep the losses less than the 370 watts. If we fail, it goes up in smoke.

For the most part, if we keep the switching frequency low, stick to the design rules regarding layout etc etc etc... we do pretty darn well.

With 6 fets per leg, we get roughly 150X6=900 amps of capacity X the voltage we switch... 48X900=43000w or more.. my bank is usually 56v so 56X900=50kw. ( so it should easily survive transients of this level)

Now these figures are all theoretical, and have no real place in the real world... except for fractions of a second, and there they count.

We switch at high speed........ over 20 thousand times per second... so we don't need to carry these currents for long, and our duty cycle is less than 100% (each leg is turned on only at a max of 40% of the time I suspect).

So in fractional times, 60kw is not out of the question... and surviving it is possible too.

Remember of your 24 fets, you can only calculate for 6, as each leg only has 6fets..... not 24.

I use the 15kw boards because the fet spacing is greater, and so cooling is better..... mostly not of interest, but more surface is always better than less.
Electrically they are virtually identical power boards. Physically they are better spaced in the 15kw version.... ( and  there are two more filter caps  on the bigger board... helps with transients)

3-4kw cont  in 24v systems is pretty heavy going. Your current will be around 40amps/kw on the primary.... or about 170amps for your 4kw..... thats going to mean very thick primary. I don't like 24v for this very reason, 90mmsq wire would be useful at these levels if you want 4kw cont. 3x1.8mmsq  is fine for the secondary

Transformers are only as good as their cooling. Thats what defines their power rating really. The little PJ transformers can do  very impressive start ups, and short runs at very high power, but not for long. They will do the output they claim... but not for long. They limit the big figures to about 12 seconds ( so it does not vaporise),peak for much less, and if you read the figures on the unit itself regarding what you can run,  it is quite realistic... but way less than the headline figures.

The size of the transformer is a fair indication of it's power handling. I found 2800mmsq of steel is about 1 turn/volt ( from memory). We only use bigger steel because we need bigger wire to keep the copper losses down... so we need to be physically bigger. A big core can also help with cooling, and  evens out the transient temps as a heat bank.

Have fun with it, I did.



.................oztules



Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 01, 2016, 06:09:48 pm
Much clearer now.
Regarding this toroidal core:
http://www.airlinktransformers.com/toroidal_cores/ros217
Will be ok for a decent 3-4kw transformer?
Thank you
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on January 01, 2016, 11:49:05 pm
Not sure of the measurements.. is that a 100mm hole or 70mm...... You will need (want or hope for) a 100mm hole... easier to work with. There is enough steel there to pull some out of the center and still have a decent core if necessary.

If you can fit the wire, then fine....plenty of mass there.


...............oztules


Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 02, 2016, 01:33:31 am
Basically the measurements are like this:
External diameter,  internal diameter, and height.
I read somewhere about the way you calculate the size of toroidal core. So should be the ???of the transformer rated power.  For 6kw transformer sould be ???6000, 77cmsq. With a core of 77cmsq you can have a 6kw transformer without expecting any extra heating or any surprise. Ofcourse here depends about the quality of the materials you use as well...

Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on January 02, 2016, 02:39:04 pm
So thats about 4500msq or by my rough reckoning about 1.6v/turn.

Should get the wire in there. about 150 turns on the secondary x 3 of 1.8mmsq wire ( 7mmsq)...and then 9 - 10 turns of 90mmsq cable.
112mmsq is the right size for the primary if we wanted to balance the two windings.... copper wise..... but you will not be running full power all the time, so 90mmsq will be fine.

Even 50mmsq on the primary would work fine 90% of the time. ( don't mean duty cycle... just normal use)

These are just my rule of thumb guesses, someone who knows the real equations will probably get a better handle on it, but those figures will work satisfactorily from my previous experiences.

"I read somewhere about the way you calculate the size of toroidal core. So should be the ???of the transformer rated power."..... That seems pretty fair for  100% duty cycle @ 50hz.....
Now I just need to remember it....





...............oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 02, 2016, 03:08:54 pm
I'll call the company monday. I'll ask them what power/cmsq they're toroidal cores can handle.  Its just so confusing.  Some companies selling 21cmsq toroidal core and advertise them as being 3000va.
By the way, the PJ power/control board from China didn't come as combined postage. I have to pay 30 usd postage for each one....
Any other merchant for the boards?
Thank you
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on January 02, 2016, 05:55:02 pm
"I'll call the company monday. I'll ask them what power/cmsq they're toroidal cores can handle.  Its just so confusing.  Some companies selling 21cmsq toroidal core and advertise them as being 3000va. "

The core size is not really a case of power:size..... if we had copper of zero ohms per foot of whatever size we had in our hand... then very high power transformers could be had very very small.

The magnetising current is fixed for freq and voltage for a core..... you cannot saturate it unless you change the hertz or the voltage.... so core size does not dictate power handling.... sounds wrong I know

So what does?

It is the copper loss that causes us to use bigger cores... we need the real estate to use 3X1.8mm wire and 90mmsq wire of the turns needed to do the job.
The bigger the core, the less turns you need for the same frequency and voltage.... so for the same winding window we get more copper in there... we can make a bigger window and get more copper in there.... and we can see where this is going.... to get more and bigger wire in there, we need to use more core to get more real estate to play with... and better still .... less turns of it too.... so bigger wins.

If we had super conductor wire, then this would be  mute. We could use any core for any voltage and freq ( 50-60hz etc), as the wire could be thinner than hair, and carry a 1000 amps, so we could have our 2000 turns on a tiny core, and handle huge power.... remember saturation is not from current or over loading... so once the core is magnetised for that voltage and frequency, all extra amp turns involved with the transforming process do not direct their extra amp turns into saturating the core, but rather using their MMF against each other, and inducing current into the other...but not the core... so if you look at the equations for core saturation.... no mention of current... anywhere.

The little PJ torroids do the job, but their copper loss heats them up too fast to be useful for more than a kw or two, and their sag will be pronounced... so we use a bigger core to allow us to use sensible sized wire to keep the copper loss to a value we can handle heat wise.

Where does this get me???? well core size helps us get to our objective heat wise. If we used silver wire, our core could be smaller, as the R is less for the same power handling.... and losses are I^2R... we need R to be tiny for high currents.... or we burn up.

A big core handles no more power... but allows us to use much more copper to get the losses under control..... then the transformer as a whole handles more power for longer, or if we have enough cooling.... indefinitely.... ie oil cooled, forced air cooled etc.

I guess what I am trying to say is that core size is an indicator, but the copper is where the bulk of loss comes from, particularly in torroids, hysterisis loss is generally  small for size, and eddy currents are small, as they use very thin laminate compared to EI ones. They tend to use high grade steel for torroids, as they are very expensive to wind to start with.

Some EI transformers deliberately run in saturation... but these are special cases....particularly ferro resonant ones

PJ boards are just W7 boards in disguise. There are plenty of manufactures on alibaba with virtually identical boards... but getting them to part with them is the problem.
I had a few discussions with several of them, and all will sell you the control cards for very much less than PJ..... if you buy or have one of their inverters... so you can try, $45usd seems to be what they would charge  from the discussions I had with them. With PJ, they at least put them on Ebay... cheap at one time , but they have wised up.

Nothing stopping you from trying the others though...... all the LF  chinese ones seem to be the pretty much the same.

Some folks here are going to try the EGS002 cards too. 6-10 dollars.


...........oztules


Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 02, 2016, 06:17:03 pm
I have 2 1.5kw inverters. Probably Tuesday I'll try to fix them.
Going back to the toroidal core, you think that 220mm external diameter,140mm internal diameter and 50mm height can handle 3-4kw but you need more turns /volt correct?
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on January 02, 2016, 06:53:21 pm
Is that about 2000mmsq?.. ie core cross section is ((220-140)/2)*50.....
If so, then about .7v/turn @50hz is my guess

So for 240v thats now 350 turns for the secondary, we wanted 3x1.8mm wire before, but your using more turns now.. so we want thicker again... we've gone from 150 turns to 350 turns,,, so need twice the sqmm for the same handling.

See how it gets away quickly as we go down in size. With super conductor, no problems with the extra turns, but with copper... it gets tight quickly... same with primary.. now 21 turns... need twice the cross section really.....

So no, the core would be fine, but the copper would be difficult/impossible for 4kw cont at 50hz... maybe you could do 1.5kw-2kw with that core.

It is not the core limiting things, it is the copper


..............oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 06, 2016, 12:47:51 pm
Hi
I have ordered 2 toroidal cores 220mm x 140mm x 50mm.
Is the only big cores what they have in stock now.
I have contacted few W7 inverter manufacturer's on alibaba and they refuse to sell the mainboard and control board only..
I'm thinking to dedign a mainboard myself...
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on January 06, 2016, 02:00:14 pm
My guestimate is 1.4v/turn. Stacks of winding room, so many in hand is not a problem.   ie 260v would be 185 turns... but gee plenty of winding space with a 140mm hole.

The power card is a soda, it is the control card thats the key.

.....oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 06, 2016, 03:18:55 pm
The only thing that I'm worried about is the weight. In the invoice i have postage weight 4kg. I should check that tomorrow.
I'm thinking,  should i stack 3 of them together or 2 are enough?  I meam i can run a 1.5-2kw water pump or so correct?
By the way I'm trying to fix a 1.5kw inverter
I'm very disappointed about that 1.5kw rate when i see the small transformers..
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on January 06, 2016, 07:48:47 pm
You can't compare HF transformers to LF transformers in size.... not even in materials.

The HF units run with  high frequency square waves ( PWM), so require less turns per volt.... so a few dozen turns might give you 320v output.... totally different thing.

A single core of the size you said will get you 1.5kw cont.... if you wind for it.


Fixing the hf inverter is usually not that hard if only the fets go, and don't take the drivers with them... else a throw away..... unless your dedicated and stubborn.
It will usually be the hv fets ( 4 of them at top), the push pull ones generally survive.




...............oztules


Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 08, 2016, 03:07:30 pm
hi
i`m buying the stuff for the transformer
i would like to know if this type of tape is ok for that
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/High-Temperature-Kapton-Polyimide-Tape-BGA-5-10-20-50-100-200mm-x-33m-RepRap-/321319356763?var=&hash=item4ad020495b:m:m983l94tkErJnfLBoYA_g5w

anyway, the inverter send 2 impulses of 230v an then is getting back to fault mode (don`t know why)
one thing is clear, now i know more about inverters :)
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on January 09, 2016, 04:45:21 am
That Kapton polymide stuff is one sided adhesive, and I see that they do not do a size about 18mm wide.


Here is a paragraph, rough draft, from my book I am doing regards me making the OzInverter No1 and the Big No 2.

"Mylar tape, or Molinex, Nomex ? my observations.

The trick is keeping it tight, and wrapping it right, let it go or drop the bobbin and a birds nest ensues.....

I obtained 200m 18mm wide and 0.085mm thick from the supplier of my toroid bare cores, but sadly it was not enough but was just correct for thickness.

The PowerJack toroid I dismantled had super thin stuff, 0.065mm, that very easily broke, but I managed to salvage most in small runs, I just used the adhesive backed Mylar tape to do the joins.

The Mylar tape I get from the USA...... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181696004499?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT ..... is 0.125mm thick, but i found that it is just to thick.
 Especially when its not flexible enough to allow the next winding of the secondary to fit down in the gap of the previous winding, especially on the internal centre hole windings. But it does come oval shape and goes down a 62mm dia hole okay without having to unwind..........

I half lap the Mylar tape on its self on the exterior of the toroid, and I do 2off complete wraps as a minimum, with the super thin breaking stuff I did 3off wraps, Waste not.

Don't forget the epoxy resin on each secondary winding before you cover it with Mylar tape. I like the thin viscosity stuff that I mix and lightly paint on.
 I have some thin Molinex sheet that I put under the whole toroid to collect any excess resin.
 The following evening turn the toroid over, peel off the Molinex sheet, Mylar tape on the hardened, but still soft, epoxy resin coated winding, and then next copper wire winding goes on."

As I said I could do with another Mylar supplier source, 800 meters, at about 0.085mm thick and 18mm wide.

I trust this helps?
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on January 09, 2016, 05:37:42 am
"anyway, the inverter send 2 impulses of 230v an then is getting back to fault mode (don`t know why)
one thing is clear, now i know more about inverters :)"
Try to find the current sense resistor... I suspect it is high impedance now... and this is causing the pulse... it thinks it is over current, shuts down, tries again.. shuts off... just a guess.

................oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 09, 2016, 06:38:57 am
Them ones?

000 R on reading.
according to the color code should be a 0.1R resistor ...
seems like i have to find a different way to check them ....
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: rossw on January 09, 2016, 02:35:54 pm
i have to find a different way to check them ....

Two (perhaps all three) of them are in parallel. That makes it 0.05 or 0.03 ohms.
Hard to measure that accurately with a normal DMM.

You really need a 4-wire low-ohms meter. They're expensive and rare.
Another thing you CAN do, is to pass a known current through them - I'd suggest 1 amp (this will require a decent power supply, because it'll be quite a low voltage).... but when you have 1.00A, now take your multimeter and measure the voltage across them. Measure from "outside" where you've applied the power. EG, with little alligator clip leads clipped on the resistor leads as close to the body of the resistor as you can, measure the voltage at the outer end of the tails - NOT on the alligator clips, because there you will also be measuring the clip-to-lead resistance.

Expect 1 volt for every ohm. So if you measure 0.1V, it's 0.1R. If you measure 50mV then it's 0.05R etc. It's generally much easier to read low volts than low ohms.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on January 09, 2016, 03:00:42 pm
I was hoping for your sake they were open circuit or thereabouts. Your measurements confirm they seem to be fine.... it would not mater if they were 2 ohms probably, as with no load they would drop very little, and the over current circuit would not come on....worth a try anyway.

You seem to have some other problem it has found to try the voltage, but fail... current resistors was a good place to try.

...........oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 09, 2016, 03:12:24 pm
Thank you ross
I'll try that

oztulez, actually you're right, i have got 320v-450 pulse and then went to fault mode. When this inverter stopped working,  was beside me and i can heard the water pump working in 2 different speeds. Exacly like you're reving your engine.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on January 09, 2016, 07:22:25 pm
Almost sounds like the pwm chip is not seeing any feedback from the hvac line.... see if there is an open resistor in this line.
Normal start up seems to be float the pulse width up until proper voltage is found.. if not found, then collapse, and try again...


..............oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 10, 2016, 01:15:53 am
I have checked the control board. The caps look bad for some reason....

Clockman did you get winding tape from airlinktrabsformers UK? If yes, how much is it? Seems like this tape is more expensive than copper :) i have copper for 10 euro /kg
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: rossw on January 10, 2016, 02:27:03 am
I have checked the control board. The caps look bad for some reason....

Congrats. You have won the "Understatement of the month" award!
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on January 10, 2016, 02:37:22 am
Crikey!...... even to my untrained eye, those caps look deceased.

Its the multi colour rainbow effect on that processor chip pin outs that looks interesting.........!

Yes, Airlink sent 200 meters of mylar tape with my order, the Mylar cost me £15 GBP.

And Yes getting hold of the correct mylar, thickness and width, is not so easy. A UK importer said he could get me 1,000s of meters, as they import it by the 1m width, but then they would have to cut it. Cost was prohibitive.
Been searching on Allibba etc but not much Joy.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 10, 2016, 02:38:52 am
Well they're very small caps and i was thinking they're dirty,  when i had a closer look i seen the paint peeling off . What caused that i don't know...

Clockman, my ordee from uk was dispatched :) I'll see if I'll get any Mylar tape from airlinktransformers

Thank you very much for the help. Much appreciated
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: Wolvenar on January 10, 2016, 02:44:04 pm
MarNet, notice the bulging top and bottom, possibly .. err probably leaking.

Either these are very cheap incorrectly made caps.
Maybe they have somehow seen the wrong end of power or AC leakage.
Would be nice to get a scope in there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague#Visual_capacitor_symptoms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague#Visual_capacitor_symptoms)


Close up of the caps shows this pretty well. The goo like stuff that was described as peeling paint, may very well be the leaking  electrolyte pooling.
In it's normal mounting position, are we looking up at what would be pointing down? Perhaps it was stored oriented with this side we are looking at down?
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 10, 2016, 02:57:00 pm

I ordered a new board anyway.
Thank you



Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 11, 2016, 05:28:44 am
Clockman,  i have contacted airlink regarding Mylar tape. They have 50 microns tape, 20mm wide on 2.5kg reels. Yours 200m of tape was the same? 50 microns tape won't be too soft? Thank you
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on January 11, 2016, 01:03:55 pm
Yes 50micron, 0.050mm will do you fine.

AirLink do genuine Mylar, and 50 micron will work fine.

I do not like the Chinese's stuff, although just slightly thicker than 50 micron, it just rips and snaps away.

Have fun. 
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 11, 2016, 01:25:01 pm
what length you had in a 2.5kg reel? 200m?
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on January 11, 2016, 03:01:17 pm
Rough, back of envelope, 2.5kg reel at 50 micron thick is about 700 to 800 meters long.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 12, 2016, 08:20:20 am
The toroidal cores arrived today. Silicone steel band ...

Clockman i used the link what you provided :
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370597734866?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
guess what , i got banned for 48 hours
i rang them, and they told me that :"is the system who banned you until 14/01/2014. we can`t do anything about that"
i LOVE ebay .....
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on January 12, 2016, 01:24:51 pm
E Core ,ferrite core from Bulgaria.

I just got another last week........
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370597734866?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Works for me.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 12, 2016, 01:35:28 pm
probably because i was logged in my mobile and laptop on the same time with different ip address.
I understand now why your cores had an insert. My cores are oval :)
anyway, the Mylar tape from UK comes expensive. is not expensive if you get it with the cores so you dont have to pay delivery twice.
the copper wire supplier have Nomex tape , 190 microns tape on 3 layers. Specially for industrial transformers. The tape is 1m wide and probably 10-14m long, basically 1 kg. You can roll it up and slice it so you have a roll of 20mm wide and 10m long.
This Nomex tape comes in 100kg  roll and its 7 euro /kg, so i`ll see saturday how is it

Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 18, 2016, 03:00:08 pm
hi everyone
my copper wire supplier provided me Nomex transformer insulator sheet . The sheet is 1m long and about 30 cm wide so i cut it on 2cm bands at 1m long.

the toroidal cores are joined toghether with resin and fiberglass.

i tested with a cable but i dont see any voltage drop ...
i think i`m ready to do the winding ....
we target 230V ? i mean oztools told me that he belives there will be 1.4v /turn ... so there will be 165 turns/winding?
thank you
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 20, 2016, 05:25:10 am
hi everyone
i did the first core winding.
 165 turns 1.8 mm wire ... tested with the light bulb, all good
i connected transformer to 230vAC and i made  2 test coils:
one of 1.8mm wire 4 turns and i have got 4.6VAC , 1.15V turn
one of 2.5mm cable, 7 turns and i have got 8.3VAC, 1.18V turn
Then the fuse blowed off :) , worked for a while so i done my tests
I have 165 turns so i have to add 35 more turns for 230VAC
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 20, 2016, 11:12:34 am
ok,
i have 205 turns now and i still have problems ...
keep blowing my fuse after 2-3 minutes of usage
now on the testing coils i have: 4 turns coil 3.9-4v, 7 turns coil 7.2v ...
i`m confused. any help will be appreciated
thank you
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 20, 2016, 01:57:39 pm
i think i got it :
TPV = 1 / (4.44 × 10^-4 ×40 × 1.5 × 50)
where formula:TPV = 1 / (4.44 × 10^-4 × CA × Flux Density × AC frequency)

for clockman , on 60cmsq core 1 / (4.44 × 10^-4 × 60 × 1.5 × 50) = 0.500 tpv x 230 =  115 turns
for my core what is only 40cmsq  1 / (4.44 × 10^-4 ×40 × 1.5 × 50) = 0.750 tpv  x 230vac =  172-173 turns ... 175 will do
i had a confusion because some people use a constant of 42 and the formula is 42/core area = TPV so 42/40 = 1.05 TPV . for 230V needs 241 turns ...  :o

i don't understand why its blowing off the fuse ??
the light bulb in series is off .... in between the coil terminals shuld be 0V ?
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on January 20, 2016, 03:44:08 pm
Sorry for the silence... been stupid busy.

It is good to see you have a formula for the turn per volt. 
My observed rule of thumb is within 10% out from your proper equation... Generally if anything is within <10% electrically, all should be good enough to work very near properly.... the steel may be different too.

However, your test data says 1.15 volts per turn.... thats very different to the rule of thumb I use, and your formula... your steel seems to be very different, or your input voltage was low....... odd..... was the light globe still in series?

You should have had huge noise and very very serious heat,  if you can blow your fuse once it is running ( 3 mins means 20 amps for a 10 amp o/load.... this is unlikely and will present as a 5kw heater.. I think you would notice this....) if the tranny is at fault... are you sure it cant be current leakage  ( RCD triggering) rather than fuse.

If the tranny stays cold ( and I think it should with that many turns)... it is not from current overload... find something else doing it.
If the tranny gets hot... I have no idea at all, as there is enough turns there for your published core size to not be saturated for my money.

Only on turn on will the thing blow every fuse in the street, after that it is very very small power consumption comparatively..... in the milliamps, not amps... maybe 150-200 ma or thereabouts.


...............oztules



Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 20, 2016, 03:52:08 pm
i understand i`m busy too
so basically i should be ok with 175 turns right?
that will be 233.3VAC ....
let me know your opinion about that.
the steel is the same as clockman`s  1.5Tesla 50Hz
thank you
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on January 20, 2016, 04:02:31 pm
Yes 175 looks on the money, but I would go 180 or more just to stay further away from saturation..( keep idle currents as low as possible.)
I have no idea on the figures of my steel..... suppose I could work your formula backwards... :o

............oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 20, 2016, 04:11:08 pm
180 will be then, i`m afraid as well because i don`t want to have an output of 180x1.33= 239.9V ... wont affect ?

i double checked with the clockman 60mmsq core , with this formula he have 2V /turn x 118 so he had 236V on testing for 236 V correct ?

regarding my tests, i had the bulb in series and was off ...
i don`t know where to check to see the 0.01V as per picture, is between coil start and finish with the bulb in series right?
by the way. i ordered an PJ main board and control board from China. i`ll see if the invertor is ready by the end of the next week .

Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on January 20, 2016, 05:58:32 pm
If the bulb had gone off or almost off, then there is no current of consequence flowing... it cannot blow a fuse... maybe an RCD contactor ( residual current device).

My guess was 2.1v/turn for clockman. I can't recall what he actually got.

"i don`t know where to check to see the 0.01V as per picture, is between coil start and finish with the bulb in series right?"
I have no idea what your asking ... what picture, and what .01v are we looking for..... and there should be 230v across the start  to  finish of your primary without the globe, and .. maybe 180v with the globe in series with 230vac.

"180 will be then, i`m afraid as well because i don`t want to have an output of 180x1.33= 239.9V ... wont affect ?"
We want to wind a transformer with 230v or more secondary and a 30v primary ( for 48v system). It is pretty flexable, as it is the pwm train of pulses that determine the output voltage, not so much the transformer..... we match it reasonably to keep the efficiency up, and saturation down.... but in theory, almost any transformer can be made to work.... albeit fleetingly or terribly if too far away from spec.

...........oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on January 21, 2016, 02:54:49 am
Yes Sorry, not much sense out of me as I am just getting over the MAN Flue/Influenza.

Yes I got 2.1v with the 118 turns, but I could have gone for 15 turns on the primary instead of 14.

But other things come into consideration................... After due consideration of 'oztules' logical 60,000 word of wisdom......

1. I will be using the AC Coupling back charging facility through the toroid so the headroom is approx. 250v.

2. I might also be using low 48v battery voltages, ie getting down I have more space...

"If we wind for a few more volts than we want, our saturation is further away... so say 240 or 260v for a 220v system gives us leeway and lower magnetising current  ... from there about 1:8  primary : secondary.. "

3.  I added more turns than the suggested minimum of 114, and ended up with 118, because for me it was a darn site easier to remove a couple of turns than to add them at a later stage if need be.

At the time Oztules you did remark that the PJ toroid's seemed better metal.

But interestingly I found this comment by the manufacturers AirLink Transformers........

"Magnetic Degradation...... Occurs when toroidal cores are impregnated with varnish or epoxy coated.
Light impregnated varnish +15%..........Epoxy coated +40%."

My stripped PJ cores were just lightly coated with varnish, where my AirLink cores got glass fibre and epoxy, so I might rethink the core joining process and keep the coating absolutely minimal.

Personally, I am not particularly worried about the magnetic degradation as the OzInverter works and does its job. And besides Reducing degradation may lead to other ramifications.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 21, 2016, 04:53:06 pm
i`ll try to do more test tomorrow
i just have sore eyes today ... the lovely irish weather ...
thank you for the infos .
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 23, 2016, 01:13:40 pm
i have 180 turns now ....
connected to 230VAC and fuse was blown off :)
i replaced the fuse and then i start testing ...
it buzzed  for a second and after is very silent .
the 4 turns coil shows up 4.7V so its 1.175V /turn right?
any sugestion ?
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 23, 2016, 02:31:48 pm
ok with 170 turns i have 1.3 turn per volt. i have got 9.1V on 7 turn coil
on 177 turns i have got 8.5V on 7 turn coil
by the formula i got 1.3 V/turn so i think that i`ll be save with 180 turns
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on January 23, 2016, 02:42:58 pm
You can see how much it changes by changing the primary 230v winding...... the flux goes up as you decrease the turns... but so too does the magnetising current.

If you go 180turns ( for the now secondary in inverter mode)), you will get better idle figures, for the sake of an extra turn or so on the primary.... less magnetising current = less idle current.



........oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 23, 2016, 02:54:34 pm
I got it now. Thank you oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 25, 2016, 04:32:49 am
The dhl man delivered the boards today

Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on January 28, 2016, 05:44:47 am
Ok, there is the toroidal transformer ready for resin.
Then I'll wrap it again with Nomex foil and Kapton tape.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on February 01, 2016, 04:06:46 pm
Oztules.... Any ideas where I may obtain some more of those PJ battery insulated terminal, 10mm threaded, posts connectors from.

Not sure what the industry calls them, I can not seem to find any, yes, I could make some by turning and boring some PVC dowel rod, but time is.......

Thanks
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on February 01, 2016, 10:53:37 pm
For a reasonable price... no

I just use 10mm nylon? cable glands, cut them up a bit, and use 10mm s/steel nuts and bolts.. works very well... :)

Like these
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/20Pcs-Strain-Relief-PG11-Glands-Connector-Joints-for-5-10mm-Dia-Cable-/391218076765?hash=item5b166a1c5d:g:raEAAOSwzhVWrmJp

They provide the insulation after you cut the top off.. then butcher some 50mm 10mm s/steel bolts and nuts...... and there you have it.

Marnet... I like the hole size  :)

...............oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: RFburns on February 02, 2016, 12:09:34 am
These are x'e items and fabricating your own is the best solution for high current . links below show some - the bluesea ones are sold by many other companies and are $$

http://www.amazon.com/Moroso-74145-Black-Panel-Connector/dp/B000COO1Q8 (http://www.amazon.com/Moroso-74145-Black-Panel-Connector/dp/B000COO1Q8)
https://www.efihardware.com/products/1593/submersible-pump-bulk-head-terminals (https://www.efihardware.com/products/1593/submersible-pump-bulk-head-terminals)
https://www.bluesea.com/products/2202/Terminal_Feed_Through_Connector_-_5_16in-18_Studs_%5BRed%5D (https://www.bluesea.com/products/2202/Terminal_Feed_Through_Connector_-_5_16in-18_Studs_%5BRed%5D)
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on February 02, 2016, 05:49:57 am
Thanks 'RFburns' for those links.

Several months ago I saw them on fleebay China, listed somewhere bizarre, but silly me I did not take a note.

Thanks 'oztules', yes your method is admirable, and duly added.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on February 02, 2016, 05:56:34 am
hi all
for oztules : how many turns do you think that will be for the primary coil? do we target the 30v? i contacted the PJ manufacturer and they told me that: "all the transformers are the same just dc voltage and watt are different"

Do i need a EMI Filter ?
I have ordered the lcd`s and some conformal coating lacquer.
It is ok if i spray the boards in both sides with conformal coating lacquer ?
thank you
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on February 02, 2016, 03:15:46 pm
Yes Clockman, thats the idea...... make sure you use a second set of nuts for the final [product, so you can tighten very hard against the nuts rather than just the nylon.

They make excellent lugs....


.....You can tell I'm on an island in the middle of nowhere I guess....


Marnet....yes about 30v or 1/8th the primary turns.

EMI filter is good if you can get them cheaply..... I get them from the gird tie inverters, and parallel a few of the 3kw ones up.

If you don't use am radio, you may not bother at all

...............oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on February 02, 2016, 03:37:22 pm
Ok thank you
How about conformal coating
Is a good idea to seal the capacitors and all?
Thank you
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on February 02, 2016, 03:55:40 pm
MarNet, see Oztules explanation on EMI filters,  Post 49 and 51.......

http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1044.45.html?PHPSESSID=h7jd5l4edljl6k4ls18pgfj4i1

I have conformal coated mine, but cleaning of excess flux spatter and debris is a delicate job as the Control card has SMD devices both sides. So a little caution is advisable.....  I use these, the solvent brush is a little excessive.
I am just trying to protect the bare solder tracks and components that are also bare from French moisture.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on February 02, 2016, 04:05:18 pm
Thanks 'oztules' here is a section from the book on those insulated bolt terminals.......

"I use lock nuts to secure the insulators to the bracket, then the cable end eyes can be installed and tightened up with another nut on top so the nylon/plastic is not stressed.

 Or the 'Oztules' way, using nylon cable glands that the 10mm bolt can pass through, cut away the clamping/closing end and…….    Don’t forget the lock nuts."
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on February 02, 2016, 04:11:19 pm
Thank yoy Clockman
I didn't see the post nr 59. Seems like there is only 58 posts.
I'll see if i can get any hf filters. Thank you
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on February 02, 2016, 04:19:23 pm
Sorry, and post No 51.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on February 02, 2016, 04:28:14 pm
Its winter here and the OzInverter seems happy with its conformal coated PJ Boards. Voltage is very stable.

Perhaps I am being a little harsh with its mounting position.?

Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on February 03, 2016, 10:51:35 am
Clockman you are a bit "brave" to leave it outside :)
There is the pictures with the 3x1.8mm secondary in epoxy and then wrapped up on Nomex foil and Kapton tape on the top. Ready for 2x25mmsq primary coil
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on February 03, 2016, 02:17:57 pm
And there is 23 turns with 2x25mmsq cable
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on February 04, 2016, 05:22:56 am
And the test...
Saturday I'll get the connectors delivered so I'll have it mounted sometime next week or so
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on February 04, 2016, 10:52:51 am
Oztulez, do i really need that ecore on the primary?
My 2x25mmsq cables can only do 2 turns.
That ecore is only to keep the idle voltage down correct?
With the Ecore in and power from secondary,  the fuse blown off...
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on February 04, 2016, 07:37:14 pm
in a word... yes

The ecore will drop your idle current and at the same time take an enormous amount of heat out of the transformer due to the new efficiency.... other wise it will absord hundreds or watts for nothing but heat you don't want.

You must have a resistance in series before you use a torroid on the mains or it will blow fuses like they didn't exist.

What were your secondary turns, and the cross section of your steel core?
..............oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on February 05, 2016, 01:25:43 am
Low idle/running current is one of the major reasons I fell in love with the 'oztules' OzInverter.

My first Inverter was a APC UPS 5000, and its idle current, was at 150 watt to 200 watt, so overnight my batteries lost nearly 2kw, arrgghh.

My Old, now returned to SMA, Sunny Island 6, had I think separate windings for getting the idle current down, as at night there seemed to be a battle happening at night time as the lights flickering on and off.

Here is a pic from the book regards the ecore.
 
That's 50mm/2, Tri-rated/multi strand/car battery/welding wire, it comes in different insulation thickness and can be easily shaped to fit the ecore.
 I can get 4 turns, but looking at the 60,000 words on the OzInverter it seems that several reports mention NO particular benefit of 4 turns, so 3 are best. The needle file is just to very lightly/gently remove the very sharp edges on the ecore, as they nip the insulation if you don't, see below pic.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on February 05, 2016, 01:46:28 am
This may help.

The white glue lined heat shrink is my sleeve solder joints.

From the toroid winding, I use a sleeve joint to solder connect the 50mm/2 tri-rated/multi flexible/welder/car battery cable. It then does the ecore and then up to another solder joint where I break out into 3 smaller 18mm/2 tri-rated cables that join to the 3 holes on the PJ heat sink. 3 means a good connection. Flexible cables means very little stress on the PJ boards and mountings.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on February 05, 2016, 03:26:42 am
Oztules there are 2 cables of 25mmsq and 23 turns.
I'm wondering if 2 turns are enough...
The secondary is 3x 1.8mm (2.6mmsq) and 180 turns
The steel is  40cmsq.
My question is why the fuse are blowing when i have the e-core connected to the cable ???
Without E-core the fuse won`t blow... I used the 180 turns of 3x1.8mm as primary and the 2x23 turns of 25mmsq as secondary. When i add the e-core, 2 turns on secondary the fuse blown, same e-core on primary 2 and 3 turns fuse blown. Was ok with e-core on primary with 4 turns in 230volts. I just don`t want to burn any board ....

Clockman, I'll have a look when I'll get to the computer....
The 25mmsq cable i got it free from a friend.  If i have to buy 11 meters of 50mmsq or 70mmsq will be 50-70 sterling pounds plus delivery...
i have got 1 meter of 50mmsq cable to make the ecore filter. I have to say this is G-flex cable and looks more flexible than the 22mmsq cable what i fight with ...
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: mab on February 05, 2016, 03:55:51 pm
Just a small observation CM on your DIY terminals - the pic you posted looked to have stainless nuts - stainless steel is a poor conductor (from memory, regular steel is about 5 times better) so you may want to avoid stainless in the final assembly.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on February 05, 2016, 04:47:39 pm
I have no idea how this is wired to have this happen... unless the transformer is under load, there will be no effect from the ecore hanging on an open winding, as I assume you are energizing it from the 240v side.

Can you scribble a circuit showing exactly what you are doing?
It makes no sense at all. Once you have started the torroid running, it should use virtually no power.

...............oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on February 05, 2016, 04:53:25 pm
Mab, I use stainless too. Usually 10 or 12mm bolts.

Whilst stainless is less conductive, it is also using a length of only 1/4 inch or so over a 100mm  ( 6x6x3.14) cross section.
The losses are so small as to be not worth bothering with,... never felt a warm terminal.. so I can't say I'm about to change.

In a marine environment.... even less so, however, copper bolts and washers would be better I suspect electrically..... but low strength.

The slightest loosening of the terminal will have a huge effect, far more so than materials used,..... and lug performance too.


.............oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on February 06, 2016, 03:51:58 am
MarNet, here is my simple block diagram of the Primary test circuit.


Once the bulb is illuminated and the toroid has done its inrush, then close that switch and the bulb is bypassed, and then the AC meter will give a true reading.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on February 06, 2016, 10:55:23 am
Thanks again
Seems like its a problem with the fuse...
I moved all thing on the different power line in the garage and its ok now.
I have played with this ecore around the transformer to make sure its not magnetic field interference and all.
Clockman i have got 1m of 50mmsq cable and i have done 3 turns in the ecore. Ecore snapped...  Its on resin now...
 Was nicer if this cable was 1mm slimmer... 
Probably if I'll get 1x50mmsq cable and not 2x25mmsq, the transformer looks much better but I'm not gonna spend another 70-90 euros for that now
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on February 14, 2016, 10:49:14 am
hi all
i got the connectors. everything is ready for the test
just a quick info
i seen here : http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=148717.0;attach=9078;image
the on/off switch should be attached between pin 11 and 13 and internally connected to b+ right?
I`m a bit confused about that ....
thank you
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on February 14, 2016, 02:38:06 pm
Just a switch between No 11 and No 13, once the circuit is joined the Inverter starts, disconnect Pin 11 from Pin 13 the Inverter stops.

I just use a latching BIG push switch.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on February 15, 2016, 06:04:35 am
Ok, its working but there is a small problem. Its only 193-197v putput. Why is that?
Any idea?
Batteries 25.2v, transformer input 23-24vac, output 193-197vac
Thanks again
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on February 16, 2016, 12:06:03 pm
i think that the low voltage shown in the multi meter its because of the noise.
If there will be an emi filter or a true RMS multimeter the read will be around 230v.
clockman/oztules can you check on your inverter the power before emi filter and after please?
thank you
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on February 17, 2016, 03:34:10 am
sounds like too many turns on the primary or too little on the secondary.
Meter shows the actual voltage RMS before the filter if you have one or after. There is a 4uf cap to filter out the hash at the 240v terminals.

..............oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on February 17, 2016, 04:31:35 am
I was afraid of this..
Thank you oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on February 23, 2016, 02:20:27 am
Hi
I think that my control board is compromised. An imperfect contact burned a fuse or something else...
The 5v voltage regulator is hot, etc...
I ordered another one.
I fixed the power by taking off 3 turns in primary coil.
One thing, my fan have a S (i think is signal) output. Do i need a 2.2k resistor? Its only 2 wires right now...
Thanks
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on February 29, 2016, 06:48:43 am
Hi all
The new control board was delivered today. I paid 90 euros including vat and duty-free
For some reason, the board is on bits. It's just ridiculous.
I have to speak with the PJ supplier tonight...
By the way, regarding the fan, any ideas?
Thank you
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on February 29, 2016, 11:54:51 am
Could have sworn I have posted about the Fan required by the PJ control board.............

Anyways....... see       http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1117.msg11359.html?PHPSESSID=h7jd5l4edljl6k4ls18pgfj4i1#msg11359      for the connections.

The fan motor has 4 coils, these are pulsed by the Hall effect chip, so this is what I did.

The yellow lead was just connected to nothing, so the resistor is now connected to that lead end and the other end of the resistor is connected to a coil end terminal. And hey presto a pulse.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on February 29, 2016, 12:00:08 pm
The fan reassembled.

I use a warm soldering iron to mould and move the plastic so the resistor sits neatly with no strain.

The fan needs its plastic for its strength and integrity.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ClockmanFrance on February 29, 2016, 12:37:39 pm
There be Pulses on the yellow lead.

This will keep the PJ control board happy, it needs its pulsed fan.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on February 29, 2016, 01:22:27 pm
Thank you clockman
2.2k resistor would be enough?
I don't have an oscilator but I'll post the picture when I'll finish with
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on February 29, 2016, 05:41:27 pm
One more thing, with a 4.7k resistor i have 8.2vcc power in tacho pin.
With 10k resistor i have 7.8vcc.
Clockman,  can you check what power do you have in the tacho pin with 2.2k resistor?
I'm waiting for the 2.2k resistor to be delivered
Thank you
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on March 03, 2016, 06:17:57 am
Hi all
With 2.2k resistor signal power output is 8.14v...
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: frwainscott on March 06, 2016, 09:03:23 pm
Hey Dudes, The 3 wire fans are old computer cooling fans or newer processor cooling fans.

I have attempted to attach a picture of both.

Frank
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on March 13, 2016, 04:25:06 am
And there is my inverter
I have to install it in a nice box now.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on March 13, 2016, 05:17:47 am
Nicely done.
Have you had it under loads yet?

...........oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on March 13, 2016, 05:24:49 am
Yes.
Just an 1.2kw angle grinder. 3kw start impulse, no change of noise or heat in 15 minutes use.
0.8A on idle
I'll install it on my farm in the next 2 weeks or so and I'll let you know guys.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on May 04, 2016, 12:49:41 pm
Hello all
I tested my inverter with an mig welder.
The welding time power consumption was 2.6kw with a spoke of 5.6kw at start. No noise or anything else.
Thanks oztules,  thanks clockman.
I'm building an vertical axis wind turbine now,
I'm very busy :) Sorry for the late reply...
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on May 04, 2016, 03:49:05 pm
Good result.

.............oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on May 05, 2016, 07:14:14 pm
Seems a real attempt to sell PJ parts now.

http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/dr.powerjack/m.html?item=252359359918&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

..........oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: frackers on May 06, 2016, 05:01:39 am
Seems a real attempt to sell PJ parts now.
Really? Empty here!!
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on May 06, 2016, 10:05:49 am
Omg. Some prices there :(
Come on oztules, finish that EGS002 thing
I'm in as well if is any space for me :)
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on May 06, 2016, 01:27:23 pm
Marnet, the 002 has been superseded now, but the final working version of mine was here.... http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1116.msg11540.html#msg11540

Works perfectly fine.

Antman has another version, and i'm sure more versions  will turn up sooner or later...

Tinker has done a schematic as well here:
http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8542&get=last#93561

and a different style of output board etc here:
http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8542&PN=0&TPN=3

Frackers, there was a complete list of all the boards there yesterday... today hardly any left.... amazing...

...............oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MarNet on May 06, 2016, 04:24:59 pm
When you think that you start it :)
Do you feel a bit guilty?  Ahahahaha :)
If you ever around Ireland i would like to have pint with you.
I'll drop any inverter project now.
I have to finish a wind generator/turbine with lenz2 blades and i have to finish a python software for my farm.
Actually i have a system running on arduino and i transfer everything to beaglebone.  I hope I'll have everything done by 1st of august. I'll post everything i promise.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: ringundango on June 03, 2016, 02:09:59 pm
Hello to all. I'm new here in that interesting forum, from Spain.
What do you think about that?

http://s.aliexpress.com/JvuuMVVb

Regards!
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: Dr_Zogg on June 03, 2016, 07:46:12 pm
hi people,
do you think these would work ok in place of the e core?
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Free-shipping-1pcs-47UH-130A-current-pure-sine-inverter-dedicated-power-inductor-sendust/1157225_32668113983.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000023.9.VYZwtF


Cheers,
            Zogg
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: can man on June 05, 2016, 12:02:30 pm
ringundango
you can find some information here
http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1116.255.html

-------------Eduardo
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: NJM on March 22, 2017, 02:40:04 pm
Hi, i am new in this forum, i'm almost a ignorant about eletronic, but i will try ; i bought the  the LF 5kw 24v to 110ac 6ohz  main board and the board control from power jack, i have a plan to mount a power inverter, i need deperatly if sombody out there could give me a help, i need just a draw, how to wire the power transformer, fans, sensors, battery terminals, on-off switch, can be drawing by hand.  If anybody need more details, i my send the pictures. Thank you all. NJM.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: lighthunter on March 22, 2017, 04:28:24 pm
Here are some photos from the book showing some connections.

I dont know what transformer you will be using but make sure you test it by connecting the small leads to 120VAC through fuse, then measure the large leads with an AC volt meter, Large leads should measure about 18.7VAC. So for 24/110/60hz control board should use a transformer measuring a ratio of 120/18.7. A small variance wont make a difference but should be close.

The small leads (120vleads) should connect to the board terminals marked 'maintxN and MaintxL'  The large leads (18vleads) will connect one each to the split heat sinks bolted to threaded holes. The ribbon cable from main board to control board should just plug in unless they gave you solder in ones. Your output power to outlet will connect to p3 and p4 on the control board. The 24v battery positive is connected to the large heatsink all in one piece on one side of main board. The negative battery lead gets connected to the 4 black wires with ring terminals coming from capacitors.  Then you need the on off switch two pins.  Oztules has an excellent illustration of the on/off switch connection in first page of this thread. Better yet, read this whole thread before you hook power to anything.

Have fun with it and be careful to detail.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: NJM on March 23, 2017, 02:32:51 pm
Hi, lighthunter, first, thank you so mutch for your prompt response, i have  2 transformers transformers that i took from the APC UPS 3000. They have the same caractheristics, but i have one doubt, this UPS is 3000va, 48v battery bank imput - 220ac output, the primary has 4 wires, as you see in the photos, to test them i used a serial lamp, put the primary  in serie, black-white   +  black-white. and the secundary also in serie,  you can see the pictures, i have the 18v imput and 120 output, the only thing stranger, the serial lamp test, did not came off 100 per cent. What you think, can i go on or i'm going in a wrong way. thank you one more time. NJM
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: lighthunter on March 23, 2017, 05:04:32 pm
Looks close enough to me! You are correct 48/220 is the same as 24/110 it will have lower no-load current used as 24v which is bonus. Perfect choice of transformer as far as voltage ratio goes. Its not going to be 3000va anymore at 24v though. It should do 1.5kw  without any modification. I wouldnt expect these to have been series connected in the original ups circuit, then again, maybe they were.  Just seems odd for a manufacturer to do that. However they were connected would be the way you would connect now since you arent changing the voltage ratio. After you are comfortable with your 1.5kw inverter and how it all ties together you may want to keep your eys open for a couple 3000va toroids on ebay then you will be able to run 5kw steady with your new boards. Looks like you have a great start :)

Edit
I looked at your picture closer and there is another way to connect these transformers that will give you the full 3000va ability of the pair. Because of the original connection shown, I believe these transformers are each 24/110v 1.5kva  transformers.  They were originally connectd in series to be used as 48v/220 conversion. Now that you have a 24/110 use for them you can simply take one transformer and use it in your powerjack inverter. It will work perfctly by itself. The larger white and black leads will be connected to one each of split heat sink while the secondary smaller winding will have a 110v pair of wires that get connected to maintxN and maintxL. When you have everything working then you can add second transformer by joining white to white and black to black for primary. Then pair up one of the 110v output wires to the other same color wire, turn on inverter and masure voltage between last wire and where you plan to connect it. It should measure 0acV with power on. This insures correct phasing of the parallel transformer connection.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: NJM on March 24, 2017, 03:37:10 pm
Hi Lighthunter, thanks. I'm not sure but i guess the APC company build a variety of the UPS using the same components, just changing the configuration. For exemple; the ups in question was used for almost 8 years at my job. Here in Italy is 230ac 50hz but the ups is 220ac with both , 50 and 60hz. Thats why i beleave they change a little bit from model to model. Thanks again.njm
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: lighthunter on March 24, 2017, 05:54:47 pm
Hi NJM, that makes sense. Since your control board is 110, you can still series connect secondaries and get 220 if you need, thats how i use mine. The frequency of the board i think is fixed to the stamped value unless you know how to hack password protect microcontrollers.

Best to you,
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: NJM on March 26, 2017, 12:45:47 pm
Hi, Lighthunter, and to all. First i would like to say many thanks to Lighthunter and oztules, for the oportunity to share and get the preciuos information, thank guys. Today i made my first bench tests, or table tests using my 5kw power jack board and board control. After look and reading all the informatios and photos i got started. I just made the simply way, to put it on sevice, this time i used only 1 transformer as Lifgthunter told me to do. The cooler system i made separed, i did not use the boarder pins, just to turn on and off,  i used the 20 pins grille.  Issue, i forgot to mesure how many volts come from the 20 pins socket. The rest, seens to me everything round. I'sanding some pictures, ideas, critics, informations acetable. Tank you.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: lighthunter on April 01, 2017, 04:23:05 pm
Good job NJM! :)  The part about only using one transformer was to avoid the problem of opposite phasing of 2 transformers. Now that you have a feel for how it all works, you can connect up the second transformer. If in parallel (same voltage but doubles power ability) then connect only 3 of the 4 wires up, then turn it on and measure the voltage between the 4th wire and where you intend to connect it to. This should be 0 ac volts. Once verified then you can shut off and connect the fourth wire. Of course if you want 220v then the two high voltage windings will be series connected. Still has to be phased correctly but consequence of doing it wrong is simply 0 output volts,

Wouldnt hurt to put an inline fuse for each transformer output but make sure the feedback to the powerjack control board gets its sample(connection) before fuse. That way if a fuse blows, the inverter will not get hurt. if feedback were connected to output side of fuse, it could blow up the fet board simply because a fuse opened.  In addition, be sure feedback wires have good connections and no chance for a wire to come undone. I fear some have lost their expensive boards while playing with transformer connections.

Great work!


Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: NJM on April 01, 2017, 04:43:46 pm
Hi  LH, thanks for your reply.  As you said in your post, i think is better use two transformers and get 3000w  110v. Could you please draw the wire connections for me please? Just remind you, both transformers have the same wires collors.by my tests, also the voltages ate the same. Have a good day.NJM.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: lighthunter on April 01, 2017, 05:59:37 pm
Hi NJM, i cant tell by the photos, which wire colors are you connected to for 110v??

Seems like it should be black and white of 4 pin connector but im not sure.

Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: NJM on April 02, 2017, 04:47:03 am
Hi LH as you can see in the 4fh picture above, i made 110v connecting the white+black wires from the transformer, you can check the others voltages on the photo below. Ps: I found the exactly voltages in both transformers. But is possible  a set up, the transformers primary wires to use the inverter, 110v and 220ac?, I know if i use it in 220ac the wattage will be half, 1500w, for me it's ok. You said i need use one inline fuse, but how many amperes?. thanks. NJM
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: lighthunter on April 02, 2017, 07:35:57 am
Ok, good info, thank you.

Heres a quick drawing i think will be fine for your use. This gives you two 110v outlets that can operate at 10A each. If you cool your transformers and monitor temperature of them you can put 15 amp fuses in each one. Its true if you need all 3kw to go to one 110v load then this connection only gives you 1/2 that. However you can use two 110v loads, one on each outlet with a total of 3kw provided you use 15amp fuse and watch xfmr heat.  Circuit breakers can be substituted as you wish. Note the polarity of your outlets. I did not include that in drawing.

The P3 connection to control board allows the pj control to see load current and shut down if it gets out of hand. In your case with LF5000 board, that may happen at 15A should be close to that i think it gives 10 sec of beep before shutdown. It can be increased or decreased but in your case it will be fine.

You might check no load current again when you have both xfmrs connected. If its over 2 amps you may benefit from a choke installed in one lead of pj heatsink connection. Others have done well with this, if you are not running this 24hrs a day dont bother.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: NJM on April 02, 2017, 08:28:11 am
Hi ,many,many thanks, i will try soon do this configuration and then i will be showing the results in here. Thanks for sharing your precious time. NJM
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: NJM on April 02, 2017, 08:54:01 am
Many,many thanks LH, i will do this configuration soon, then i will be posting the results. Thak you for your precious time. You gave me a valuable help. 
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: NJM on April 15, 2017, 03:55:02 pm
Hi LGH, today i  worked on my power jack and the configuration you draw, i'm a little bit confused, i tryed the configuration above, but did not work, and then i changed to just one  transformer and turned the inverter on, this time i found one problem,  when the inverter is in idle, the voltimeter shows 110ac, but under load, the voltagge gos to 139, i do not know what is going on, onother thing; i thought if the problem should be the ground, i did not put any ground wire becouse i don't know were go, and need the GND wire. Thank you. NJM
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: frackers on April 26, 2017, 08:05:26 pm
Thought I'd have a scan of the latest prices of spare controller & power boards for the PJ and found this ALL NEW  product development
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spare-parts-7-0-control-board-for-POWER-JACK-LF-pure-sine-wave-power-inverter-/322480915793 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spare-parts-7-0-control-board-for-POWER-JACK-LF-pure-sine-wave-power-inverter-/322480915793)

Can't see any 48v or 15kw power boards though.

Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: RFburns on April 27, 2017, 02:44:36 am
Interesting ...but still pretty complicated. Nice to see it made into modules though  ;wonder what the CPU is?
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: lighthunter on April 27, 2017, 10:18:26 pm
At least you can purchase driver daughter boards ($35.00) free ship individually now. With some thought they can be fitted to older control boards. These drivers have charge pumps on driver board some of the older ones dont. I even have one old control board without a removable driver at all but i still think you could retrofit since they still use 339 quad comparator to supply 4 signals to drivers. In most cases replacing this driver board will fix a control board after mainbd fet failure.

Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: NJM on May 04, 2017, 02:53:41 pm
Hi guys, can you please tell me if the pin 10 on  5000w power jack control board can i use it as ''power saver'' with the 3 position switch? i have afraid to burn someting then i use just the pins 11 and 13 to turn on and off  the inverter. Another question to connect the on off led, i used the pins 1 and 2, with the 12v that has a resistor . is it correct? And i would like to say thanks to LH for the precious informations. Thank you in advance. NJM. 
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on May 04, 2017, 05:21:02 pm

click to enlarge
[attachimg=1]

A pic I did for Gizmo on the back shed showing the pinouts.

11-12 or 11-13 will switch between run types
the led outputs are direct to the cpu so if usng any of them, use a buffer of some type
............oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: NJM on May 05, 2017, 01:24:34 pm
Hi, oztules, sorry for the question, what means '' use a buffer of some type'' if can i use those banggood leds  with resistor?. Another question i already have the 24 to 110ac 5000w board and board control from PJ. Today i purchased the 12vac to 230ac 3000w ????  toroidal transformer. i call the guy who sold me and he told me its from power jack.  I was thinking; what can i do to modify the transformer in question to work with my PJ boards, the problemis; i'm complet ignorant about eletric and  elettronic. I have a plan to smantell the transformer and if i have the help to custum  rewind it. whith  110vac and 220vac primay and 12 and 24 vac secondary. for me its ok if it does not  reachs 5000w. Can you give me your impressions  pease. thanks   ( http://www.ebay.it/itm/282452031481?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT) greetings from Italy.NJM
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on May 05, 2017, 05:29:28 pm
A buffer in this case is best done with a transistor... use the output signal to drive the base to turn it and your led loads on.

Your transformer is 8v:240, which would suit a 12v inverter. To make it 24v, remove the primary, and rewind with twice the turns for 16v.
For 110v 220v, you need to center tap the secondary winding for 0-110-220v winding. The voltage sensing for the controller will come off the 220v taps.


........oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: NJM on May 08, 2017, 02:25:06 am
Hi Oztules. Thanks for your reply, i'm waitng the transformer, i think it will come this week. Another thing. I have a plan to build the inverter with the minimmun use of the board,ex: i made the cooler set up completly independent. With 5 computer fans.,using two speeds . Contrlled by external relay. I would like to know if can i use the PJ board. Without its fan or thermostat. And the independent cooler system can cause some problems. ? Thank you.NJM.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on May 08, 2017, 08:08:45 am
Not sure what the new ones work like, but I didn't use the original cooling system either in he original unit.

 If you don't use the NTC at all, I think it will work fine, once it tries to turn it on, and no fan is connected it will stop....... but i think it will work with no NTC and no fan.... poor memory.

 It will also work well with a small three wire fan, connected to the fan terminals, and a higher NTC.

I recommend using an infinitely variable fan set up.... much easier to live with, and lower average temps for no sound most of the time.

 It has been a while since I used power jack boards though.


............oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: NJM on May 08, 2017, 09:09:36 am
Thanks. I d put 5 computer fans, and 1  5v step dow to run continualy and  1cheaper  12v temperature controler if the temp goes high. On my other post i made confusion. I was talking about pin "12"not . You or anybody  in the foums knows if the pin 12 i can use it as power saver. Remains a ensolved mitery of the universe to me. Salutti.NJM
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on May 08, 2017, 04:02:04 pm
I labelled pin 12 as search, as it is the search for load mode, but is called power saver in your PJ book.

So yes pin 12 is shorted to pin 11 for search/power save.

pin 11 is shorted to pin 13 for normal run mode.


..........oztules
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: NJM on May 09, 2017, 04:31:07 am
Hi Oztules. Thank so mutch ,an sorry sometimes i do not understand english very well. Thanks for the copreehesson. Soon i will post some pictures of my "Triinverter"
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MadScientist267 on May 28, 2017, 04:49:43 pm
I recommend using an infinitely variable fan set up.... much easier to live with, and lower average temps for no sound most of the time.

CV fan control is a beautiful thing, and if you can get your hands on a surplus supply of car cell phone chargers, making pure analog controllers for them is beyond trivial. The easiest ones to work with IMO are the MC34063 based units, I use them everywhere (including my inverter)... I leave them on the original boards and just modify the circuit there, but the part count external to the chip is very low and throwing things into just about any board layout would be a trivial process as well.
Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: oztules on May 28, 2017, 05:04:45 pm
I use this one ..... one pot for temp jump off point, and one pot for slope behavior.

[attachimg=1]


..........oztules

Title: Re: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..
Post by: MadScientist267 on May 28, 2017, 08:09:58 pm
Yep, linear is fine too ;)

As long as it's not PWM... I've gotten away from that approach on a few things, fans being one of them. It works, sure, but there are gotchas that neither buck nor linear involve.