solenoid powered motor

[Burnit0017]

Hi, project is inspired from the oil field pumps that use a energy recovery system as the pump using gravity returns to the bottom of the well. I plan to add a MPPT circuit. Currently fabricating power solenoid to drive the system. The videos are just experiments I did last year.
I plan to use 2 of the phases of the F&P in stock configuration to aid in charging the cap bank. The stock coil configuration is capable of producing 1 volt per revolution, so depending on the RPM the voltage can be very high.  The third phase will use a MPPT circuit and the coils will be configured for 12 volt operation. 

I plan to use a simple contact switch to operate the solenoid. They are different circuit, one is the solenoid
circuit and the other is a generator circuit.


Suggestions on fabricating the power solenoid welcome.
I have never fabricated a solenoid, but I am thinking of replacing the soft iron core with a  large NEO. 

[rossw]

I can't quite get the point of any of this.
An oil pump is trying to lift oil from way below ground. It takes power to do that, and a lot of it.
An ordinary motor will have a huge change in the power demand between "lifting" and "returning" cycles.

The weights and sea-saw arrangement is much like the spring in your garage door - simply there to help ease the load during the "hard" part of the cycle, in much the same way elevators use counterweights. The motor only has to move the "out of balance" part, not the entire dead weight.

Unless you have a similarly out-of-balance load, ANYTHING extra you introduce is going to increase your losses. More friction losses where parts touch, where things drag against the air, where bearings move etc.

If you think you can attach an alternator (or use parts of the motor as an alternator) and recover most of (or more than) the power you put in to move it, you are totally mistaken. Every extra bit, every coil, every moving part, every volt*amp of energy, is going to sap more power OUT of the system.

[Wolvenar]

The oil pump explained differently.
(I could see possibly confusion in his explanation)

 The weight is there to distribute the load over both pump, and return.

On return ( down stroke of the pump to get more oil) the motor that would have been mostly unloaded, is  used to lift the weight, which is generally takes somewhat less than the power needed to lift the oil.
As the pump starts to lift oil , the weight then is falling so (most) of the energy the motor used to lift the weight is now being returned, helping the motor lift the oil. The motor then only has a slight harder time lifting the oil than it did the weight.

As Ross points out the weight is only there to balance the load on the motor between cycles.

It does a lot to reduce stress and friction on parts, and without it you would need for double the motor capacity, while using that capacity only half of the time (one of two cycles)
This weight arrangement only increases the efficiency by spreading loads over time/cycles  allowing a smaller drive motor and certain parts to be smaller.

Again as Ross said, every time you add parts, you increase losses, unless its overall effect is to reduce friction.
In this case its only doing that by balancing/distributing load over times of load/no load.

No such thing as a free ride when it comes to energy, sorry.


p.s. I know parts of this may over simplify and not always be entirely accurate but its a generalization and I'm trying to keep it simple.
Hate to have the oil wrastlers out there rip into me 

[Burnit0017]

Hi, forget about the generator, it is just a solenoid motor. Motors run at a loss. I am adding a 1 to 3 gear set to allow the caps to charge up a bit more, it will also give two output shafts. Working on fabricating test frame. Thanks for the input.  The Neo's I am using for the solenoid core are 1 by 1.5. Is it better to have a short coil the length of the core or should the coil length be the length of the stroke?
Suggestions welcome.

[MadScientist267]

What is your *source* of energy with this?

Wind? Solar? Hydro? Power brick plugged into the grid? Will you be operating it by hand or foot?

Where does the input come from? Without an external source of energy, be it from thermal, human, outlet, or guinea pig on an exercise wheel, the machine will not operate. Without this clarified, we have to assume that you're attempting to break the laws of physics, and these threads will continue to be deleted and locked.

Steve

[Burnit0017]

Hi, there is battery shown in the picture. The project really is just a power solenoid motor project. I am starting to fabricate the solenoid, should the solenoid coil be the length of the stroke or the length of the NEO core?

[MadScientist267]

In the case of a normal solenoid (non-polarized plunger), the plunger only needs to be as long as the coil, since the end result is the closing of a magnetic circuit. The plunger is typically longer however for mechanical connection to the device being actuated.

I would imagine the same concept applies to a magnetized plunger (equal length as coil) however you'd likely want the external linkage to the plunger itself to be non-magnetic (eg aluminum etc) to prevent possible interference with the shape of the field.

A solenoid always tries to center any magnetic object placed in its field. Someone else may have a better explanation than this, and a purist would even go as far as to say that "solenoid" is simply a fancy term for "air core electromagnet that tends to pull magnetic objects into it's bore".

As for the length of stroke vs coil length, the "centering force" gets stronger toward the center of the coil, as this is where the circuit would be most "complete". Many variables involved in determining what's ideal, the details of which I don't have to offer. I've built solenoid engines, but not using magnetic plungers.

A battery is not an energy source. It is an energy *storage* medium. What is replenishing the battery? A battery charger? A wind turbine? A solar panel? Engine/human/goat driven generator?

Steve

[Burnit0017]

Hi, I read a short coil will create a stronger magnet field. But a coil the length stroke will supply a constant force as long as the coil has power connected to it. Not sure which is better.  Suggestions welcome.

[oztules]

The mechanical advantage of your off set beam is a bit iffy. You will get no mechanical advantage unless you change the stroke of the solenoid. If it stays the same, any change to the center point will just mean a corresponding change to the crank to compensate for the new distance.... and you have the same thing but with more parts.

I know it looks like your getting something from the leverage.... but have a good look what happens to the stroke lengths when you do... and then it will become clear that robbing Peter to pay Paul, is a zero sum game.

You will only get mechanical torque advantage by longer crank and stroke.... in which case just get rid of the beam, and work on stroke length and crank length.... a cam and switches will suffice for testing.


.............oztules

[Burnit0017]

Hi, thanks for the info.  Because the core moves in a reciprocating motion and there are transient spikes as power is turned and off will a long or short coil work better. I am thinking a short coil because the resistance will be less. Corrections welcome.

[rossw]

There seems to be a whole lot of confusion of terms going on here.
"Power" and "force" for example are NOT equal or interchangeable.

Why do you even want a neodymium magnet as a solenoid core? Is its coercivity or permeability better than soft iron? Even if it did work, once you attract whatever it is you're going to attract, when you turn off the field - the neo is going to keep it held fast, and sap out some of the speed/energy/momentum.

If you want the maxium "pulling power" of your solenoid, "more ampere-turns" is king. You either want more amps, or more turns, or both. A coil with 10 turns passing 10 amps will produce the same field as a 100 turn coil with 1 amp.

You're on precariously thin ice, the cloak-and-dagger avoidance of exactly what it is you're trying to do and how reeks of the over-unity nutters, and half of what you're asking and drawing looks like it's inspired by their follies too. Please stay within the realms of reality.

[tomw]

I am afraid the link to keelynet was your undoing. That site has been pimping bull$#!+ from it's inception.

As Ross says, you have done nothing but avoid the question of "What the Fsck are you trying to actually do".

I will admit watching your deft avoidance of the questions is entertaining! However, I am 99.992% certain you are pursuing Some free energy crap you tracked down on Keelynet.

If my vote counts, I vote these posts be locked or outright euthanised.

You may think you are "cool" working the users of this forum but I am calling BS on it.

Tom

[Burnit0017]

Hi, I understand, it really is just a solenoid motor. No cloak and daggers here. It has been a few decades since I sat in on physic class and I barely remember being there as a side effect from a bad med over dose. I appreciate the help and the corrections. It is just a motor project and it is ok to delete the project if you like, no problems here. Again thanks for the help.

[Burnit0017]

Hi, I plan to use PVC and plastic to fabricate the coil.  There should be nothing for the NEO to attract to as it reciprocates.

[rossw]

Hi, I plan to use PVC and plastic to fabricate the coil.  There should be nothing for the NEO to attract to as it reciprocates.

Oh, so "Solenoid with NEO mag core" means "Air-cored solenoid" and the shuttle (attached to the arm and not part of the solenoid) will be a NEO magnet?

Makes some more sense now.
You could use some of that magic negative energy to repel the magnet on the second half of the cycle to push it back out of the solenoid core too.
You do however seem to be missing the <a href="