Author Topic: How to make a solar hot water controller  (Read 12906 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline oztules

  • Forum Advisors
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1177
  • Karma: +105/-8
  • Village idiot
How to make a solar hot water controller
« on: February 12, 2013, 04:30:27 pm »
Well here it is..... well here is the 240 volt version anyway

1951-0

and everyone always wants a circuit.... and this is the one I madeup /used:

1953-1

and no I don't know what I was doing either now i look back at it, no wonder I never keep my scribblings.

However, the circuit board is what most folks need, and that is clear.

Here is the finished board: note the NTC's on the left on the spade connectors... only pin heads, just use a long cable to extend them up to the roof and the tank.
You can calibrate them on the board, as their characteristics won't change when you lift them off and re house then in the panel and the tank

The top one goes to the panel.
The second one from top goes to the tank for the differential.
The third one goes to the tank to read for the max temp.

1954-2

And the underside: ... warts and all...

1955-3

Ok, it uses three ntc thermisters, that are rated in this case at 5k@25C.... any ones will do really, as they need to only give us an idea of change,  not absolutes until we decide what we want the settings to actually represent, but three of the same type makes thinking easier.

It consists of a comparator to find the difference between the sensor (NTC1) in the solar panel on the roof, and the sensor in the tank (NTC2).

When ever the roof has more temp than the tank, we pump, if the roof drops to same or below the tank temp.. turn off. It's that simple, and then add some hysterisis, and were done.

On this version, I also take a reading of the tank and put that up against a preset voltage, and this turns the pump off if the tank exceeds whatever temp you desire.... mine turns off at 65C. If I go any higher, the freezer carcass I use as the insulated water reservoir starts to leak for some reason, and thats hot enough for me anyway. This stops boiling on hot days, as when it turns off, it drains the panels, and so does not boils and make lots of unnecessary noise.

So we have three NTC's. The first comparator differentiates between NTC1 and NTC2, and turns the pump on and off dependent on the differential of the tank to the panel.

A second comparator simply senses the NTC3 against the tank temperature, and over rides the first comparator if the temp is over the set point.

Yes it's simple I know, but works very very well.

The third comparator checks to see if the second one is turned on or not. If it finds the second one (o/temp) is on, then it shuts down output of comp3. If comp 1 wants the pump on, but comp 2 says no, then comp3 over rides comp 1, else if comp2 is off (below max) then lets comp 1 talk to the relay without interference.... clear  as mud really....

We turn on and off a big relay (30 amps) which is about 29 too many, but I had them in the junk bin. The transformer is a one dollar special I picked up somewhere in the past, and is about 14vac 7w. Pump and tranny are fused,and there is not much more to say.

Any questions?

..............oztules

Oh, and this is the 12v pwm version. It runs a 12v water pump (diaphram style) and controls the pump speed dependent on the differential of the panel and the tank. If it is a poor day, the pump will run slowly, if it is hot, and the differential increases, it will speed up the pump to get the maximum from the panel it can. (keep the panel as cool as possible is the best use of solar ( but still above tank temp))

1956-4

Here it is after a few years (under spider webs and all):

1958-5









Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline philb

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • No Personal Text Set by User
Re: How to make a solar hot water controller
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2013, 09:28:28 pm »
First, great work, as usual. You have the neatest projects.  ;D
I like your wide traces. Less metal to remove, the longer the chemicals last.

The 12 volt circuit has my fascination. I will need one about one year from now for use on my container house. A switch mode power supply can take the 24 volt battery bank voltage to 12 volts, bypassing the inverters. I have to do this anyway for my Swiftech MCP655-PWM-DRIVE 12v water pump I already have.

A few dumb questions...

There are several parts on the schematic I can't identify. 10K and 200K circles with three legs. Are they ntc's? There are two of each in your circuit.

Briefly, how are you getting the circuit board from computer screen to the board itself?

What is the box that's labeled ".1", just to the left of the 7812?

I'm not trying to be picky, just want to learn. Thanks


Offline frackers

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 239
  • Karma: +9/-0
  • If it moves - computerise it!
Re: How to make a solar hot water controller
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2013, 09:33:31 pm »
Having got to 65C and turned off (and drained down), what prevents everything from going bang when the tank has cooled due to water being drawn off and the panel (with no water in it) is at 200C and the circulation starts up again...
Robin Down Under (or are you Up Over!)

Offline oztules

  • Forum Advisors
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1177
  • Karma: +105/-8
  • Village idiot
Re: How to make a solar hot water controller
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 06:10:25 am »
Philb
The circles are trim pots
the .1 is a capacitor
I use protel for windows to print the circuit board to the transparency.
If you wish I will try to give you a pdf or at least a board print out without the components to copy if you wish.

Frackers,
It does not go bang I'm afraid.
as the water moves into the "hot" panels, it cools them rapidly to the current water temp less any differential as they progress into the panel... I think we could call it water cooling or quenching. It does not do any noticeable noise or any perceptible  mischief to the panel, as it creeps into it. You may hear some thermal noise, but nothing destructive, it happens slowly enough to not make any problems.... two years on, i have not seen any destructive behavior.

edit: the panel material is thin aluminium, and the thin copper pipes have very little thermal inertia to overcome.



...............oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline niall

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
  • Karma: +16/-0
  • No Personal Text Set by User
Re: How to make a solar hot water controller
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2013, 06:47:21 pm »
great diy Oz...

solar water heating , even in our climate should be a no brainer ....but its not really picked up on much....

certainly  beats wind and pv for efficiency.....   

Offline oztules

  • Forum Advisors
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1177
  • Karma: +105/-8
  • Village idiot
Re: How to make a solar hot water controller
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2013, 08:05:39 pm »
"
The 12 volt circuit has my fascination. I will need one about one year from now for use on my container house. A switch mode power supply can take the 24 volt battery bank voltage to 12 volts, bypassing the inverters. I have to do this anyway for my Swiftech MCP655-PWM-DRIVE 12v water pump I already have. "

Phil, I just realised, you can run this thing on 24v (28) directly, just put a limit on the dead time of the TL494 of say 50%, and your motor will not go over 12v.

Even without that, as it is,  it is also adjustable with the other pots... max drive .....also available feedback loop gain ( rate of change for differential), temp differential and max temp.


Mine runs on a 12v battery , charged/floating with an oztules converted computer power supply (13.7v max 6A). When the power goes off (common here) it will still run for hours at reduced speeds.


Yes Niall, it reduces daily power from almost 8kwh down to zero kwh and everywhere in between. I make it that the average water heater consumption now averages 1.5kwh/day, instead of 8 kwh/day ( more in some winter periods)


We are at 40 degrees south.
............oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline philb

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • No Personal Text Set by User
Re: How to make a solar hot water controller
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2013, 08:46:24 pm »
"I use protel for windows to print the circuit board to the transparency.
If you wish I will try to give you a pdf or at least a board print out without the components to copy if you wish."

I would greatly appreciate either or both, whatever you will send. Thanks!
My email is philb7369 at yahoo dot com

I remember your oztules converted computer power supply with a TL494. I could hardly follow the conservation because of my inexperience with smps's at the time. It seems you only made small modifications on the power supply to get desired results.

Offline philb

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • No Personal Text Set by User
Re: How to make a solar hot water controller
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2013, 09:01:09 pm »
Niall,
A few years ago, I did a mock up of a build it solar.com hot water panel. I priced all the parts and panels with several options. Then I did return-of-investment maths, which turned out break even point of a little less than 4 years and expected life of 15. I gave it to about 400 tree huggers to show them how green can really pay in dollars and cents.  Guess how many built the units? Zero. They were all talk and no action.  :o

Oztules, I am at 35 degrees north -97 west

Offline frackers

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 239
  • Karma: +9/-0
  • If it moves - computerise it!
Re: How to make a solar hot water controller
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2013, 01:30:29 am »
Frackers,
It does not go bang I'm afraid.
as the water moves into the "hot" panels, it cools them rapidly to the current water temp less any differential as they progress into the panel... I think we could call it water cooling or quenching. It does not do any noticeable noise or any perceptible  mischief to the panel, as it creeps into it. You may hear some thermal noise, but nothing destructive, it happens slowly enough to not make any problems.... two years on, i have not seen any destructive behavior.

edit: the panel material is thin aluminium, and the thin copper pipes have very little thermal inertia to overcome.


Aha - there lies the difference. I'm using evacuated tubes into a manifold, and before the controller was taught how to handle the condition I describe, it blew apart just about every compression fitting from the roof down to the tank in the airing cupboard :(

Its been OK for the last 3 years now with a bleed function rather than turn off the pump. I think the controller can be programmed for a max temperature over which it won't start up but after mopping up boiling water a few times I'm not inclined to try it out!

Robin Down Under (or are you Up Over!)

Offline oztules

  • Forum Advisors
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1177
  • Karma: +105/-8
  • Village idiot
Re: How to make a solar hot water controller
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2013, 02:11:25 am »
Yes frackers that would do it... those manifolds are pretty heavy duty thermal sinks.... I can see the heat problem, but surprised the boiling water pressurized an open system? Is that possible?

or is there something different with your circuit, is it drainback with airlocks... or.... nup, cant see where you can make pressure in an open circuit.... :o

................oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline oztules

  • Forum Advisors
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1177
  • Karma: +105/-8
  • Village idiot
Re: How to make a solar hot water controller
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2013, 02:15:39 am »
Phil,

Can you do anything with these?... perhaps put it in a paint program and globally change the main blue to black, the white to black and the dark blue holes white and  then .... scale  and print?

2010-0

2012-1

My attempt at a quick paint version

2014-2





.............oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline philb

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • No Personal Text Set by User
Re: How to make a solar hot water controller
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2013, 10:48:36 am »
The scale of the black and blue boards look about right. I'll try it tonight if I can. Thanks!

Offline ghurd

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 442
  • Karma: +22/-0
    • GHurd Solar
Re: How to make a solar hot water controller
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2013, 11:43:57 am »
Late to the party.
Looks great.
Love the PWM version.

Curious.  In your opinion, do you think the relay will last as long as the rest of it?
Myself, I think I would have used a relay socket / pigtail.  Here I think it would cycle frequently most days when home heat was needed. 

I have a distaste for soldered in relays and soldered in fuses.   >:(
Everybody knew that.   ;D
G-

Offline tomw

  • Not as bad as you might think
  • Senior Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 739
  • Karma: +35/-0
  • hoplophobic people will fear my lifestyle
    • Zubbly's photos!
Re: How to make a solar hot water controller
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2013, 01:09:45 pm »
I have a distaste for soldered in relays and soldered in fuses.   >:(
 
G-

That is what really irritates me about you, G-, you just can't say what you think straight out you always beat around the bush!

 :o

Tom
Do NOT mistake me for any kind of "expert".

( ?° ?? ?°)


24 Trina 310 watt modules, SMA SunnyBoy 7.7 KW Grid Tie inverter.

I thought that they were angels, but much to my surprise, We climbed aboard their starship and headed for the skies

Offline oztules

  • Forum Advisors
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1177
  • Karma: +105/-8
  • Village idiot
Re: How to make a solar hot water controller
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2013, 02:05:20 pm »
Your a hard man Ghurd....
Actually, I think the transformer will be the first to go, followed by the relay.
Those elcheapo trannies  have a life of their own, some many years, some many months, I got a heap of them for only a few dollars.

Listening to the solar pwm system over the last few years, it maybe turns on and off 20 times a day on poorer days, and only a few times on clear days. There is no machine gun chatter, so I assume it will last a long long time.

30 amp contacts driving a 90 watt@240v pump will not flinch too much I wouldn't think, but I see your point.
The fuse holders are soldered, the fuses are not, so thats a point back to me ;D


Could  use a few ghurd controllers to achieve the same thing :D



..............oztules
.
Flinders Island...... Australia