Author Topic: Electric Fence Zapper  (Read 114967 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline tskamath

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #255 on: October 30, 2015, 02:26:27 am »
Hi,

used TIP35C in simulation and I get the 600V @ 1 Sec.. for the following schematic, the extra diode and zener at the base not connected.

4776-0

raises a few more question the
Vb on the Q1 is in -38V
Vc on the Collector exceed the Vmax of 100V (simulation show Vpeak of 104V)
Id1 current in the Diode D1 is 3.4A peak.?

4778-1

with the diode inserted into the Bias loop and with the zener 6.2V the -ve on the base is clamped to -1.45V .. ??

4780-2

4782-3
any suggestion / recommendations.. or should i just ignore the simulations..?

Offline tskamath

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #256 on: October 30, 2015, 05:38:51 am »
Dear All,

This what I wanted to achieve, control the voltage on the Cap.. pls comment.. and suggest any improvements

4784-0

the Output
4786-1

Offline Dario

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #257 on: October 30, 2015, 07:06:04 am »
Check this out, i think it is ok for this zapper and you can Select voltage output.
http://m.ebay.com.au/itm/100W-Inverter-for-DC12V-to-AC20-220V-Voltage-Converter-/291563787503?nav=SEARCH

There is ac and dc output

Offline tskamath

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #258 on: October 30, 2015, 10:20:43 am »
Thanks Dario, I am not looking at the DC to AC but the Zapper itself but with a control to inhibit the pulses, in a 25KM long fence protecting the forest areas, I will be sending a SMS to Remote Control to inhibit the Fence Zapper., so that a single person can fix problem in the fence by inhibiting the Pulse and then shorting the Live Wires for safety.

the present design from Oztules is a perfect fit for me but run up to 1KV on the Cap if the Pulse is stopped. attached the simulated data ( I have adopted the simulation to design rather than physically build and test )

4788-0

The Cap are rated for 450V and in the email trail Oztules had calculated and informed that its ok for 600V, so if the Cap Voltage is taken to 1KV then I must use two Cap in series, which has more complex issues and these cap are not cheap.

The modification is to control the Max Voltage on the Cap by providing the feedback, I have kept the simplicity of the original design while providing just a resistor divide.

By the way I also realised that this control can also be used to provide Normal, High & Low Selection provided by Gallagher or Other Energiser in the Market.

If Oztules & other can comment if the Schematic till now is Ok or I have missed some critical issues. It will be a great help

4790-1

I will add the second part of the circuit once, I have sorted out the Voltage issue on the Cap.

Offline tskamath

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #259 on: October 30, 2015, 04:14:48 pm »
attached the schematic and the simulation, the LTSpice is unable emulate the Trafo due to lack of Inductance values of the Inverter T1 and the Pulse T2.

4792-0

the simulation report.

4796-1

The pulse duration is a function of Cap Voltage and will trigger when the Cap Voltage is above the ref. set by POT2.
  • This method has a weakness the Period of pulse is very dependent on Time to Charge the Cap, and hence cannot confirm to Govt. Regulation of minimum duration between pulse should be 1.2Sec
  • I would suggest a 555 Timer to trigger the SCR / TRIAC to ensure the Fixed period for the pulse
  • The Simulated Pulse Duration is 0.20mSec which again double the regulation Specification of 0.10mSec.
  • the design is perfect does not show any ringing when switching.

4794-2

Pls note Its simulated and not actual measurement, hence would appreciate, if i could get feedback on the functioning and also the inductance values.

One Question, which of the two resistor should be lowered for faster charging.. R2(2k2) or R3(680)

Thanks in advance
Regards
Srikanth Kamath
http://tskamath.pactindia.net
srikanth(at)tskamath.com

Offline oztules

  • Forum Advisors
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1177
  • Karma: +105/-8
  • Village idiot
Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #260 on: October 31, 2015, 07:49:17 am »
Hi Srikanth,
This is a grubby little circuit i made up one afternoon about 8 years or more ago... so it has stood the test of time now in many variants.

I finally had some time to take some measurements for you..... I'm sorry they are no where near your simulation... if your interested in this stuff, you are well advised to build one and fiddle with it, the spice is nowhere near the real world results....... where to start.....

First I guess is the little 1n4007.... no, the circuit uses only a max peak measurement of 46ma using a tip35c, and 30ma using a MJE13007 as the oscillator transistor. The other thing of note is that the 1n4007 has a max peak surge  current of 30 amps... yes that says 30... check your data sheet, they are rated as 1amp continuous peak, 30 amps surge for short pulse duration, and any where in between.

EDIT: reread this.... will check again, but I think I meant 460ma and 300ma... will check later today and get back. Will leave as is until I check it out... it makes sense too, as say .35amps x 12v=4.2w.... for 1.2seconds its about 5 joules used up... inverter is pathetic, so 2.8 joules into the cap is about right. (600x600x.000016)/2=2.88joules or for 20 uf  3.6 joules.. last night it was using 19uf@600v

Edit 2: Couldn't help myself.. went and measured it three ways.
First the DVM in series with the leads...MJE13007 was .34a max reading sampling rate was poor....
second with dvm clamp meter and peak hold.... got it up to .56a on one occasion.
third with 1R resistor in line and oscilloscope... this was different.
The wave was a surprisingly clean saw tooth... maybe 30us long. It reliably peaked at 1.2amps... so... one for the simulation... closer with the scope.

The tip35c ( mostly don't use these now... have hundreds of MJE13007... so use them presently) seemed slightly more maybe 1.3-1.4a.

Average was around the 300ma range. So you could justify the better diode... but I will continue to use the 1n4007 as they have not blown ever in these units..... collectively over 100 years I guess ( across a number of units that is). Thats reliable enough for me.... and the worst that will happen is you will loose the reverse connect protection, the unit will still function normally ( .5 volts better actually).

Transformers:
.4mh for the primary of the etd49 ( 3C80 ferrite core)
.3 henry for the secondary...... don't know if that helps you out.

I fail to see why you would introduce another complicating factor like voltage limit for the caps.. that is taken care of by the trigger.

There is flexibility for setting the time constant and the voltage... it is a simple compromise if you don't want to change components, or if you want to tune it to a specific voltage and specific time constant, then that is a once only thing for each unit.... remembering that the voltage will swing through the day from the solar inputs.... 14.5 in the day, 12v at night.. so needs to be timed for max voltage anticipated for >1.2sec. Simple and less to fail.... change cap and pot setting... simple.

In a rural setting, you don't add sensitive components for fun, bugs and spiders and condensation will get it sooner or later.

However, if you wanted to do something useful with the voltage of the caps, then take it a step further, and use a sense of the output voltage on the fence, and then charge the cap to deliver a certain voltage eg 6000v under all conditions... this would save power on a clean fence, and keep the voltage up better on a heavy fence.... that would be a complication with an advantage that is worth the extra parts.

Main transformer:
Simply... keep the impedance to a minimum... thick short windings will keep the time constant down.... like 2 in hand 2.2mm wire.

I tested three inductors in series with the primary for you to consider.
1 an air coil of 50 turns,
2. ferrite of some sort with 20 turns torroid
3. filter from a computer supply.... maybe 20 turns around a ferrite inner

4798-0

All resulted in a time of less then 10 us. Your simulation was 400us.

The air core was in the 5us area, the torroid about 8us, and the computer core gave about 6us
Sadly it is not perfect, there is considerable ringing on the spike itself on the oscilloscope.... but dissipates in less then 5-10 us dependent on the inductor used.

This is about what I expected, as if 2-3 joules lasted 400us... then the laws of the universe have been battered to death.

These things( 240v trippler units) I have seen run at 40 amps@7000 and more volts... thats 280000 watts.... and thats output..... probably only 30-40% efficient or less. That was using about 8 joules from memory.. very very roughly, thats 8/800000 or about 10 us... which is in the ball park. Tonight I saw 6500v@13amps... thats 84000 watts for about 3joules.. pencil in the massive losses in the transformers etc, and probably we would see near 240000 watts or about .000012 seconds... so it looks like the losses may be even worse than I suspected.

Remember also, the time constant will change with loading. Those figures above are for a fence with 500ohm loading.. standard measurement point  for these things. If you load it with a very low impedance load.. eg plasma short.. then the time will increase.... markedly.

I don't know how your simulation sees the resistance in the inductors and circuit paths, but time of discharge is very very important to keep the volts up and the time down. Transformer resistance is key to short time periods, as is the lead thickness to the caps etc etc.... keep the impedance down to absolute minimum, and the losses will be a bit less too.

I like how uncomplicated this thing is, and it is well inside the guidelines re time, and timing ... well timing is user settable, and juggling the caps and the pot will do it, or change transistors works too SC4242 MJE13007... and anything else in the junk box will have different effects on the timing and the power draw.

In winter, power draw becomes much more problematic, as the sun hours are so much less intense and duration.

Have fun doing whatever it is that your doing.... but this thing does not simulate very well, as the losses are tremendous, the oscillator is raw and so full of harmonics it is a mess, and the currents are absolutely huge.. burning up a few joules in micro seconds is very lossy.

If your going to run it with no inductor, then you don't need the 4uf on the transformer, and your time will shorten even more and voltage will be crazy without a load ( 14000 volts and more I have seen with no inductor)..... also the shock in the silicon in the triacs seems to be severe in the extreme... and life expectance is reduced accordingly...... dont be doing it unless you have very strong triacs/scrs.


Thanks for the effort.. but not for me..... I may do the variable power part using an arduino perhaps to keep the fence voltage as constant as possible regardless of impedance changing.... dew, rain, grass etc etc etc... but then I would also ditch the oscillator, and go pwm then.... light display for fence power and battery voltage......... once you have a micro on board,..........it just gets to easy to do everything.

Odd how the simulation got no where near anything, in fact orders of magnitude wrong...... I guess thats armchair electronics exposed... you need to see results in the real world. simulation of wildly erratic circuits like this is not their cup of tea by the looks of it.

The little inverter easily gets to 600v in 1.2secs with well lless than  the power estimated by your simulation.... not 3 sec @ 3 amps
The time constants for discharge and wave form even with inductors is magnitudes less than calculated... 5us is easy to achieve, and with bigger inductors still hit 10us... 10 times faster than we need from the looks of it.

So it just works... who knew???

I would just build it as is... it works, it cannot ever run the caps past your set point, so your solving problems that don't exist.... and I have never heard of any one wanting to turn the fence down....never.... they all want it turned up.

Stop your unit with a NO relay controlled by your sms... that way failure will terminate the unit.


...............oztules

Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline tskamath

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #261 on: October 31, 2015, 11:16:08 pm »
Dear Oztules,

Thanks for the a full detailed explanation, I once again assure you that I have not seen a simpler circuit than this and It work that is clear from the post of the forum. I had no doubts.. :-) .

I am supporting a NGO which is working with the Govt. Forest Dept to keep animals from straying into villages and destroy crops, You are aware any govt. does not approve any HV systems unless we provide the documentation. Hence the effort to Simulate and Provide the graphs to the Govt. Dept that its safe.

I totally agree with you Simulation way off the Charts.. It's always better to Build and test..

Thanks for the data on the Inductance. I agree you scheme on ensuring the Pulse at the Peak Voltage (600V) on the Cap, is best. But it does vary the period of the pulse depending on the Input Voltage. ie faster or slower charging of the Cap.

If you pls inform which of the two resistors (2k2) or (680Ohms) has to be lowered for faster charging?

Yes, I agree with you that a PMW with feedback would be a great improvement to boost the efficiency of the Energiser at all Load and Input Voltages. but like you said, for Rural and NGO it's better to keep it simple.

"Remember also, the time constant will change with loading." -> this is one area I would want to discuss, as the load decrease from 500Ohms the output is lower Voltage and lower Pulse Duration,

I tested a Gallagher Energiser fitted with a 16uFD Cap with their Smart Fence Tester.

JouleLoad (W)Voltage (KV)Pulse Width
NILNo Load9.60(KV)NA
2.40J10006.10(KV)0.14mSec
2.60J5005.20(KV)0.14mSec
1.8J2504.00(KV)0.09mSec

using your suggestion to keep the "Main transformer:Simply... keep the impedance to a minimum", i rewound the Transformer Primary with Two in Hand. I got the following results ( these values are from the Fence tester device)

JouleLoad (W)Voltage (KV)Pulse Width
NILNo Load11(KV)NA
3.00J10007.10(KV)0.11mSec
2.40J5005.70(KV)0.11mSec

Once again thanks for the excellent design and a simple approach. i will make a couple of PCB and Test it on the field using the Gallagher Measurement tester. shall post the result. (the  Smart Fence Tester device also provides a graph of the readings)

Regards
Srikanth Kamath

Offline oztules

  • Forum Advisors
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1177
  • Karma: +105/-8
  • Village idiot
Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #262 on: November 01, 2015, 12:52:05 am »
Decreasing R3 ( 680r) will speed the thing up.

The variable timing is not an issue really. Set for 14.7 or 14.5 depending on your solar charger for the 1.2sec, and it will always be greater..... safe :) simple is good.
The pulse rate does not vary as much as you seem to fear. It needs to get into the bad range of the battery before it gets to the 2 second mark... and then your more worried about the battery than the unit.

An example I just ran for you.

If we run it at 14.7v, we get 48 pulses per minute  1.3 sec/pulse
If we run it at 12.7v we get  36 pulses per minute   1.66sec/pulse


We can see we are close to opitmal at 14.7v and .3sec slower at 12.7

So if we up the trigger voltage a bit we can move the 14.7v point over to 1.2 sec... or add more C or increase R3... or bit of each... but once done.. tats it.

Make no mistake, there is no practical difference between 2 secs and 1.2 sec as far as deterrence is concerned. With a slow pulse (2 seconds or more) they will get hit sooner or later... and it only takes one or two, and they won't go near it again.. they can smell it ( probably makes the hair in their nose stand up or something), for if it is off for longer than say 15 mins, they somehow know.

You won't stop a running animal no matter what... as a rule, they sense it's presence, and have to have a look.... and they get bitten... they don't do it again for a long time... after that they still sense it's presence, but they know what it means. They will starve to death rather than touching it again if the volts were up over 4kv, and the earthing  was good, and ground not too dry.

If you maintain anything over 3-4kv as measured with the tester.... they won't broach the fence... no matter how slow you make the pulse rate.

I usually run them at 1.5secs or even more to keep the power requirements a bit lower.... and push the voltage up higher to allow for more grass etc. I try to stay below 10000v...usually in the 5-8kv range.`

The power  transformer will be saturated... big time... so a short circuit in the fence will pull the pulse width wider as a rule.. your figures say otherwise, and I don't know why, my scope says differently... may be transformer design, I don't know, but shorts involving arcing seem to push the pulse width up, not down.

Transformer is key to performance.... storing joules is childs play, getting it into a fence efficiently is more difficult.

We need some inductance there to keep the RFI down, as well as give the scr's a fighting chance.

I think thats it.

Good luck with it, this simple design has kept many beasts in their respective paddocks for a long time now.

I'm happy using it on an isolated island in the middle of nowhere, but for around villages and folks that are not used to them.. make sure you do the measurements for pulse width and time .... in the real world.. not simulation... here, everyone has units all over the place, so everyone is fence trained.... including pets.

Sadly I cant give you a pic of the waveform and timing... as my 40 year old scope has no way to stop freeze the frames... it is real time electron beam... and the pulse appears on the 10us/div  screen very fleetingly. I don't expect to get a pic at that speed.... hard enough trying to see it in real time, and figuring the shape and duration.... may try a movie perhaps....

Your test with the Gallagher says .14ms. @ 500ohm load... thats over isn't it?


...... oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline oztules

  • Forum Advisors
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1177
  • Karma: +105/-8
  • Village idiot
Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #263 on: November 01, 2015, 01:25:28 am »
Tried the camera... nikon... no good... but the lousy mobile phone actually delivered... after 61 frames we got this

4801-0

Hard to see I know.
Thats a 10us/div. The rise time is very very fast, the drop off is slower... but still around 10us all up for 500 ohm load.

If I increased the load, very little changed... unable to say if it went wider or narrower.... you only get to see that flicker for a fleeting instant once every second or so.. but if you put a resistor on it, that is not big enough, it will blow it up, and arc... when that happens, the wave creeps out to 30us... 20 of which is almost a secondary train of pulses... what I saw last night thinking it was ringing.... and probably is.........but only when an arc is present from testing thus far.

Did not do no load, as my scope might not have survived...... someone else can try that.

Hope that is enough for you... learnt a bit myself too
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline tskamath

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #264 on: November 01, 2015, 01:47:01 am »
"Your test with the Gallagher says .14ms. @ 500Ohm load... thats over isn't it? " true.. but the energiser is a 20 year old..? :-)

I agree, the pulse period of 1.2Sec or 2Sec or any value greater than 1.2Sec  would keep the animal away, the reason for 0.10mSec and 1.2Sec is only for compliance. We had cases where people have blamed death of Buffalo or Cattle on the Fence.. They just love to graze the cattle in the forest.. :-(

Yes for sure will do a field test, I was trying to short cut and get the PCB design from David on EagleCad, unfortunately the file he sent does not open.. some Error on line 1.. Have to get the PCB designed and fabricated.. Will do and post

on the Trigger Cap of .7uFD, my guess is the 3 x 1Meg + 220k Pot + 330k = total of 3.55Meg hence the Voltage on the 3rd 1Meg should be 80V when Vcap = 600V and

with the POT set to 75kOhms would give the 30V diac break down voltage (0.5RC 39.30% of 80V.)

Oztules, many Thanks for all the help and guidance, I owe you many beers.. cheers

Offline oztules

  • Forum Advisors
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1177
  • Karma: +105/-8
  • Village idiot
Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #265 on: November 01, 2015, 02:23:42 am »
"We had cases where people have blamed death of Buffalo or Cattle on the Fence.."

They were probably correct. These things won't kill from a single hit.

BUT if the animal is caught in the fence or wedged on the fence, then these things WILL kill a full grown bull.

It is not through electric shock as normal ( so many miliamp through the heart,)  but total disorientation of the entire central nervous system.... and it does not take long either.

Thats why it is illegal to use these on a fence that incorporates barbed wire or any other sort of wire that could snag a victim... keep this in mind..... plain wire only.

We sometimes get wallaby caught in the 5 wire fences as they try to jump through and tangle.... they die... as will anything else unlucky enough to manage to tangle themselves up in one.

All the newer low impedance fencers will do the same thing, the old high impedance ones... I have not heard killing things.. or doing much good at anything, but the new low impedance ones ones certainly can, and do... not often, but it does happen... so the stories are possibly  true I would expect.



.................oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline Dario

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #266 on: December 15, 2015, 07:58:40 am »
My version of PCB arrived :-)
I ordered in China and payed 30$ for 10pcs
There is only diference in text, in my eaglecad text is not over the capacitor sign and some other text like cap out.. etc is missing
Now all i need is order components that is missing.
I will send info about the rest later

Offline oztules

  • Forum Advisors
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1177
  • Karma: +105/-8
  • Village idiot
Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #267 on: December 16, 2015, 05:19:35 am »
Where did you get them made?.. like the black too.


.............oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline Dario

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #268 on: December 16, 2015, 12:52:44 pm »
Hi oztules
 you can send your gerber files to this mail sales@epegpcb.com with your wishes like: silk colour, text colour, 1layer 2 layer, anything... and they will send you invoice in e-mail when you pay the invoice they will let you now when is done, ussualy 5-7 days and they will send it with tracking number.
PCB's are high quality and great price, this is not my first time doing buisnies with them so maybe they gave me some discount.
also visit them www.epegpcb.com

Dario

Offline Wolvenar

  • Senior Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 1474
  • Karma: +40/-0
  • Mr. Murphys pawn
Re: Electric Fence Zapper
« Reply #269 on: December 25, 2015, 05:27:18 am »
Dario
That is seriously cool looking!

Great job between you, oz and all the others making these.
Now I'm wanting to do it.

* Wolvenar slaps himself..  No bad bad, to many projects already!
Trying to make power from alternative energy any which way I can.
Just to abuse what I make. (and run this site)