Author Topic: An invitation to the electronic wizards in the forum  (Read 12780 times)

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Offline David HK

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Re: An invitation to the electronic wizards in the forum
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2012, 11:51:06 pm »
Now I’m onto calculations.

According to my multimeter the solenoid coil resistance is 36 Ohms.

Therefore at 9 volts the current passing through the coil will be 250 milliamps.

Increasing the voltage to 12 volts with a requirement to pass 250 milliamps through the coil means a resistance of 48 Ohms.

Therefore 48 Ohms minus the existing solenoid coil resistance of 36 Ohms leaves a requirement for a 12 Ohm resistor.

In my last drawing shown above, should I have put the ‘possible resistor” position on the negative side of the capacitor?

Dave

Offline rossw

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Re: An invitation to the electronic wizards in the forum
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2012, 12:07:07 am »
Now I’m onto calculations.
....
Therefore 48 Ohms minus the existing solenoid coil resistance of 36 Ohms leaves a requirement for a 12 Ohm resistor.

I agree with your maths. The only thing not considered is if the old controller may have run the solenoid on less than 9V (perhaps the circuit had say a 5V regulator?).  Would seem unlikely however.

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In my last drawing shown above, should I have put the ‘possible resistor” position on the negative side of the capacitor?

Makes no difference. It's a series circuit so the current will be limited either way.
I'm not convinced the resistor is required though - 36R coil, 250mA for even half a second, isn't much power to dissipate.

Offline David HK

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Re: An invitation to the electronic wizards in the forum
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2012, 01:57:15 am »
Well it works!

However, I have to keep the power onto the relay continuously, and, as soon as I disconnect, the solenoid shuts off as intended.

I have been thinking that 12 volts produces a very fast reaction and I wonder therefore if 9 volts would produce a slower reaction enabling a pulse effect to keep the water balance on whilst the relay is off (dead).

Gardena must have had a reason for using a 9 volt battery, and a solenoid coil of this exact type.

I don't have any 9 volt relays but I can re-jig the solenoid power via the relay to a 9 volt battery and just use 12 volts for activating the relay. Will give it a try

Dave

Offline rossw

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Re: An invitation to the electronic wizards in the forum
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2012, 02:30:37 am »
Well it works!

What, you doubted me??   :)

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However, I have to keep the power onto the relay continuously, and, as soon as I disconnect, the solenoid shuts off as intended.

Exactly. Thats why my original diagram showed two discrete switches. One for "ON" and one for "OFF". Using a single SPDT switch means it's always either ON or OFF, with no "STAY AS YOU ARE" option.


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I have been thinking that 12 volts produces a very fast reaction and I wonder therefore if 9 volts would produce a slower reaction enabling a pulse effect to keep the water balance on whilst the relay is off (dead).

There is no "dead" using a double-throw switch or relay.

Again, using the timer I suggested (which has a changeover relay for its output) would indeed keep its internal relay activated during the "ON" cycle (for 1 to 8 minutes per your earlier post?), but the solenoid itself would only get a short burst of power.

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Gardena must have had a reason for using a 9 volt battery, and a solenoid coil of this exact type.

small, cheap, easy to get.

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I don't have any 9 volt relays but I can re-jig the solenoid power via the relay to a 9 volt battery and just use 12 volts for activating the relay. Will give it a try
Don't expect a different outcome, because it won't be.

Let me re-explain the theory of operation of my original circuit.
A capacitor, on DC, will charge up to the supply voltage. The amount of current it draws, and how long it draws it for, is a function of the resistance of the circuit, and the capacitance of the capacitor itself. When you first apply power to the circuit and operate the "on" switch, peak current will flow through the coil and capacitor. The capacitor will charge up at a rate determined by the resistance of the circuit and the voltage. The charging current will rapidly reduce as the capacitor aproaches full charge, end eventually will be virtually zero (just leakage current).

Thus, your solenoid has had a brief pulse of current even though the power could remain turned on for hours.

When you disconnect the power, the capacitor will hold the charge - it has no discharge path. The charge would (in theory) hold forever - except of course, capacitors have some internal leakage and the charge will eventually dissipate. (I've had 100,000uF capacitors stored for years that took a chunk out of a screwdriver with the charge still in them after that time!)

Finally, when you close the "off" switch, the charge in the capacitor has a discharge path back through the coil - and will again produce an initial peak current which tapers off as the charge in the capacitor is discharged, ending up with the cap discharged and there being no current through the coil - in effect, "reset" ready for the next cycle.

If you use a changeover (double pole) relay, it is only ever in one of two states - charging the capacitor ("on"), or discharging the capacitor ("off").

Offline David HK

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Re: An invitation to the electronic wizards in the forum
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2012, 02:44:15 am »
Ross,

Thanks for clarifying my thoughts. Well what a day! It's so nice when one can get some expert help to make a very simple device to work

Next step is the weekly timer and i will keep the forum posted when that is sorted out.

Its getting late in the afternoon here in HK so to celebrate in your absence i am going for short bike ride and will consume a few tins along the way.

Dave

Offline MadScientist267

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Re: An invitation to the electronic wizards in the forum
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2012, 07:57:08 pm »
Not that this needs to be "bumped" or anything - but one thing came to mind...

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The charge would (in theory) hold forever - except of course, capacitors have some internal leakage and the charge will eventually dissipate.

This is most definitely true... however in the way that the cap is being used in this particular circuit, there's no "risk" of it ever not being a momentary low impedance when the relay changes states. As you mentioned Ross, there's no "in between" state here, it's all one way or the other.

When the relay is "off", the cap is connected across the solenoid's coil, preventing any residual charge from surfacing and increasing the voltage at the terminals. The cap stays at zero.

When the relay is on, it is holding the cap at the 12V rail via the solenoid's coil, so the minimal leakage current that would normally allow for the slow self discharge is counteracted. As a result, there will always be sufficient energy to toggle the solenoid back to it's off position when the relay cuts off.

Just an observation for future readers that might stumble across the concept. Carry on then. :)

Steve
Wanted: Schrödinger's cat, dead and alive.