Author Topic: Battery Bank Balance  (Read 24672 times)

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Offline A of J

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Re: Battery Bank Balance
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2012, 04:12:34 pm »
Chris/Ross I know what it is about, every power station I have worked in had a similar single center zero meter that showed any earth leakage between positive and negative buzz. And I do know how important it is because I blacked out Port Hedland in western Australia once when my largest engine  12.5 MW (diesel power station) shut down because I caused a 50 volt DC earth leakage on another unit. The large unit had a known earth fault, my introduced fault caused the fuse to blow on that (largest) unit faster than I could react despite seeing the magic smoke.

In those days although Port Hedland was a stand alone system we had to notify any outages to the powers to be in Perth, the states capital. It is a long story but Country Undertakings 2 IC (the mob I worked for) rang once he was awake, and his opening comment was "and what were you doing this time Allan". I can explain but I don't want to hijack Chris's thread.

What I fail to understand is the number or 12 volt batteries Chris has, to me it's a bit like buying trouble.

I had eight banks of 2 volt  650 AH cells as a 24 volt system because they were the right price, and in the 9 years they were mine cells did fail, but 0.05 volt difference?

Chris is a cleaver person, when he posts I sometimes read, but in the absence of a diagram I don't want to know, how the hell are other members of this board meant to understand? Go on put your hand up people, who understands what Chris has done.

grumpy Allan

Offline rossw

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Re: Battery Bank Balance
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2012, 04:28:35 pm »
With digital meters, you can buy two identical meters and they might read .05 volts difference testing the same battery.  I've never seen two digital meters that are exactly the same, and while I suppose it's possible to calibrate digital meters I don't know how to do it.  These analog meters can be checked and corrected for accuracy quite easily during bank service, and they were relatively inexpensive (15 bucks apiece).

Chris, if it were me (it's not me!), I'd definately use either a centre-zero meter and an amplifier, or I'd use two digital meters. Digital meters are generally very easily calibrated. Even without that, a meter that reads to 999 or 9999 is really cheap and easy to get nowdays. I'd use two of them and two 10 or 20 turn trimpots. I'd call them "battery PERCENTAGE meters". rather than voltmeters.

Connect the two up to the same reference source, adjust the reference to (say) 15.000 volts, and then tweek the trimmers until both meters read 999 or 9999. Ie, near enough to 100%.

The reason for digital is that it completely eliminates the guesswork, and of course the extra precision.

Something like http://tinyurl.com/d2ox2p4 (ebay item 250894831268) looks about perfect. $5.20 each, free shipping, digital panel meter, 7.5 to 20 volts display. Powered directly off the input so no mucking about required.
AND it has a trimpot on the back that I reckon will be used to 'calibrate' it.

Offline oztules

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Re: Battery Bank Balance
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2012, 06:03:31 pm »
"So apart from standing out in the roaring forties which makes iugkyjtfrxtfghj what are you saying.

Be that as it may it begs the question WHY????????????????????????

Persons who have attained the level of 'listen to" still have to explain what and why they are doing, remembering that many readers are just new comers to all of this renewable energy stuff.

Do not say I am so great that you should believe me, document why!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   "

The explain part goes like this:

1. 40 batteries ... because over here we work with what we have. his bloke has gotten 40 batteries from somewhere, and wants to hook em up.... so we work with that 40 batts.

2. Knowing 1., we then need to wire them up as best we can. In this case I think that it would be best if every cell had equal access to the load and the supply.

3. If we parallel things, all those things in parallel will see the same emf.

4. If we series things, all those things in series will see the same current ... in or out.

5. A cell plate pair is the most basic of the redox reaction devices in the unit. They are arranged into groups within physical containers called batteries. But ......the cells in each battery can share more surface area for more current carrying capability.

To this end, they arrange more plates in parallel within a cell structure. Each plate adds to the surface area of the plate beside it, and we can go on doing this until we build a very big cell.... which when we add more cells to it, becomes a very big battery.

Note, all additional plates added into a cell are paralleled. They do not series string the plates from each cell and join them at the + and- posts.
They could if they chose to, but build convenience, and equal emf distribution across the entire surface area of the lead is best served by paralleling them into a single cell, and then series the cells into a battery

6. If it's good practice to build batteries where at even the plate level we parallel the outputs, then we can follow this outside of the physical battery, into our battery bank.... all the same rules apply

 .... and they are:

A. All cells supposed to be at the same emf, should be paralleled, so all cells at that emf behave as a single cell, just as in a battery cell made from numbers of plates.....They parallel the plates to make a bigger cell  .... in our upcoming example there will be about 100 plates paralleled  to make each effective cell... but the nearest we can get physically to them is at the battery level (every 6 series cells for 12v),,, so the 12v battery will be made from 6 x 100 plate cells. That makes for a very big 12v battery. Yes there will be variances within the battery /s that we can't do anything about, but hopefully they are matched well enough to keep the differences down (more hope than belief)... at least the terminal voltage will be the same.

B. Once A is achieved, simply string the new super battery in series to make your bank the EMF you want.

So that is how and why I chose to do this. If battery manufacture could produce a better battery by making the individual plates isolated, (messsy maybe) then the best manufacturers would do it.... but they dont.

On a more theoretical rather than follow the battery makers lead, then I would point to Chris's remarks, where he has tested extensively for cell differentiation on a regular basis, and this shows that series strings of batteries parallel with other series strings go out of kilter.

It is thought that equalising is the answer to this, and that may be true with wet cells.... but with gell cells (we will be using these apparently next week) it is less likely that equalisation is particularly safe.

Boiling wet cells to use up allow the current   to make H2 and O2 in the fully charged cells, and then allowing any non-charged series cells to catch up by using series current to reverse the redox reaction, is only good if you can replace the water. If you overdo it with gell types, it can be sad, as the gas will escape past the valves, and not be available for re-assimilation into the matrix..... they dry out.

So the best we can hope for is to fix all same level EMF batteries to the SAME EMF, and hope this mitigates to some extent the variability of unbalanced series strings. You can see that particularly for gels, it is necessary to not let some cells get too far ahead of the rest.

The unbalance within the battery may make this less than satisfactory, but it's the best we can get without using independent 2v cells where we can balance the lot.


Does that help at all?

And some of us southerners will wonder at the translation of this iugkyjtfrxtfghj ..... I figure it is some sort of jungle speak after the bar is closed for the night.





....................oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline rossw

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Re: Battery Bank Balance
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2012, 06:26:03 pm »
Was thinking about my post, and the digital displays - and went looking for something with a little better accuracy and precision.

Ebay 160655632497  (http://tinyurl.com/6tkboln) is a little more expensive - but at around $24 delivered it's still a very tempting device. Salient points:
   5 digits display, so you could show 0-20V with 1 millivolt resolution.
   Power supply: DC5V or DC6V~15V±5%
   Measuring precision: ±0.05%FS
   Overall dimensions:73mm X 26mm X 22

Intteresting note is that it will read +/-, so a single SPDT pushbutton or switch would let you read from bank1/2, the sign (+ or -) would be your meter indication of which bank is which - and you have no calibration issues since it's the same meter!
Just press the button/flick the switch to see the difference.... (and one meter is cheaper than two)

Offline A of J

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Re: Battery Bank Balance
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2012, 06:51:33 pm »
tules, say what!

now I do know I am suffering from oldsimers, but that is alright just hit the old fellow about the head some more.

BUT what no one has done is post a diagram so all members of this board can understand what Chris has done, I for one am still confused even after reading your explanation of er er well I am not sure what, but at least I have an excuse.

A new member of this board may read this and believe that using 100 X 12 Volt batteries to build a 12 system is a good way to go.

Allan in 28.5 degree C in  Far North Queensland not in the Bass straight.

Oh and up here we work with what ever we can get also, albeit we can drive to the nearest town, with the only water section being the ferry to cross the Daintree river and we don't have mains power even though yours is diesel generated. ;D

Have Redox batteries made it to the Bass straight?

Offline oztules

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Re: Battery Bank Balance
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2012, 08:29:09 pm »
"Have Redox batteries made it to the Bass straight?"

.... hmm... all batteries use redox reactions as oxidation reduction reactions.... however I think your talking about the vanadium version.

Answer is yes. King Island used them for a few "years" actually months I think. They came from Canada, and for various reasons were patently unsuccessful. I don't know what happened
here: http://www.kingislandrenewableenergy.com.au/project-information/vrbr

So they made it to 40 south, but not known as working successfully.


................oztules

pictures later
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: Battery Bank Balance
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2012, 10:34:12 pm »
BUT what no one has done is post a diagram so all members of this board can understand what Chris has done, I for one am still confused even after reading your explanation of er er well I am not sure what, but at least I have an excuse.

Attached is a simple diagram for reference.  The diagram just shows 8 batteries and I have 24 of them.  But anybody should be able to figure that out - with more batteries you just keep adding them in parallel with the two strings.

The diagram is in PDF format.

* Bank Wiring.pdf (5.78 kB - downloaded 284 times.)
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Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: Battery Bank Balance
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2012, 10:43:59 pm »
Chris, if it were me (it's not me!), I'd definately use either a centre-zero meter and an amplifier, or I'd use two digital meters.

Ross, I agree that digital meters could be used as well.  I've always liked analog stuff - kinda' like a speedometer in a car, I guess.  I still prefer the good old needle over digital numbers on the dash.  When I saw those volt meters on the rack at Radio Shack, and saw they have jeweled movements, can be calibrated, have +/- .5% accuracy full scale, and are quite sensitive, I liked them instantly.  That's why I got them.   :)
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Offline Watt

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Re: Battery Bank Balance
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2012, 11:08:53 pm »
Chris, looking at your diagram, it looks to me like the batteries closest to the buss bars will take most of the load and most of the charge.  That buss bar to rear battery connection lead looks as though it might have just a bit more resistance than the closer leads.  Are the wire sizes front and rear sized accordingly or all the same. Thanks.

BTW, I tried this sorta configuration once.  I clamped an ammeter on each battery and found a bit of difference.  I guess my problem could have been connections.  I don't remember for sure so I will leave it at that.  At any rate, I will be watching to see how you progress. 


 
BUT what no one has done is post a diagram so all members of this board can understand what Chris has done, I for one am still confused even after reading your explanation of er er well I am not sure what, but at least I have an excuse.

Attached is a simple diagram for reference.  The diagram just shows 8 batteries and I have 24 of them.  But anybody should be able to figure that out - with more batteries you just keep adding them in parallel with the two strings.

The diagram is in PDF format.

(Attachment Link)
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Offline A of J

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Re: Battery Bank Balance
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2012, 11:11:46 pm »
Thanks for that now I understand why I was confused, you have two parallel sets of 12 volt batteries, with a common mid point connection and you draw off each end because you have so many the cable losses are a problem for you. ::)

What you need is all your 12V batteries set out in two's nose to tail (24v) and a positive and negative bus bar of suitable cross sectional area that is as long as your string of batteries and a common mid point connection. Yea I know same as what you have done, sort of.

I can see it now you have 12v batteries because you can write them off against tax, they are for your trucks etc after all, seriously if one needs a bank of batteries for renewable energy one buys 2V cells of adequate amp hour capacity. :-X

Allan

Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: Battery Bank Balance
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2012, 11:25:24 pm »
What I fail to understand is the number or 12 volt batteries Chris has, to me it's a bit like buying trouble.

Allan, the batteries we bought have the same warranty as any of Rolls-Surrette's RE battery lineup - 7 years

We got them because they were recommended to us by the dealer we got our inverters from.  The T12's are 2.4 kW @ the 20 hour rate.  The S-1380 2V cells are 2.1 kW @ 20 hr rate.

The T12's are quite a bit heavier than the 2 volt cells and they're a bitch to move around.  They're also more expensive.  But 24 of the S-1380's was 2,100 amp-hours (1,050 ah per battery @ 20 hr rate).  24 of the T12's was 2,400 amp-hours (200 ah per battery @ 20 hr rate).  We use 25-30 kWh/day in our home.  24 of the S-1380 2V cells would've been a little too small for us, with no reserve, and they would've gotten deep cycled more than the T12's.  So the guy recommended the T12-250's because we need a 30 kWh (usable) bank.

The other option was to get 12 of the Rolls 12CS11P's.  But those batteries weigh 375 lbs apiece.  The ones we got only weigh 155 lbs apiece so they're easier to move around.
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Offline philb

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Re: Battery Bank Balance
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2012, 11:36:57 pm »
Thanks for the explanations. I do understand what you are doing.  ;)

It is easier to monitor two battery banks versus one large one. I suppose you could add just one battery to one bank without disrupting the electrical output. That banks amp-hour output would change, but would not change the overall health of the system.

The same parallel-series system could be used for any voltage.

I'll try a pdf format next time.

Offline A of J

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Re: Battery Bank Balance
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2012, 12:20:23 am »
Chris I still like my idea but it works for you, what depth of discharge do you reach overnight, I know it depends on wind but on the average?

Allan

Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: Battery Bank Balance
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2012, 08:30:31 am »
Allan, with zero incoming power it takes 24-30 hours to cycle them down to 50%.  Overnight they rarely go below 70-80% SoC.

Zero incoming power rarely happens, and neither does cycling them down to 50%.  With several poor days in a row of no sun and light winds our automatic start generator comes online and recovers the bank before it gets below 60% SoC.  We use our bank hard every day because we got 8 kW of inverter power, and we use the full 8 kW on a regular basis.  But at the same time, I take care of the bank and have the system set up so it doesn't let them ever get too low.

We got our inverters and battery bank from a guy that has been in the RE business for close to 30 years.  He showed us a chart of how many cycles the batteries can do vs how deep they get cycled before they have to be replaced.  He went over all our loads, what we wanted to be able to run, and the fact that we wanted to improve our quality of life.  Our setup is designed to get 10 years from the bank, according to all he said we needed.

We lived with basically junk for almost 10 years here, and there was way too many times I was up at 3:00 AM at 30 below zero trying to get a gas charger started because our bank was dead and the furnace blower quit.  When we got the money to put in all this new stuff a little over a year ago, it was a big change for us.  And we've been enjoying it.  But taking care of those batteries so they last for their design lifetime is a top priority for me.  They were a pretty sizable chunk of the total investment.
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Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: Battery Bank Balance
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2012, 09:48:11 am »
Chris, looking at your diagram, it looks to me like the batteries closest to the buss bars will take most of the load and most of the charge.

That's just an example diagram showing 8 batteries.  I have 24 and there is a "tap" to the bus every two batteries on each parallel string.

It worked flawlessly yesterday with both good sun and wind.  The bank was a bit thirsty after the previous day and we generated 44 kWh with solar and wind.  The bank was floating by about 2:00 in the afternoon and it stayed perfectly dead even all day between the two strings during bulk, absorb and float.

This morning when we got up the bank was down to 25.0 volts and still dead even between the two strings.

I really think it's going to work fine.  I'll know more when we get a few poor days in a row and pull it down to 60-65%, then get a good day when it bulk charges at 200+ amps for several hours.
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