Author Topic: 15a 24v chinese charger questions  (Read 11395 times)

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Offline birdhouse

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15a 24v chinese charger questions
« on: February 19, 2012, 03:07:59 pm »
i bought a charger from ebay for my 24v bank.  it was sent straight from hong kong, and i believe it is designed to be the power source for LED lighting.  it has an incoming voltage switch to go from 115 or 230v.  there's also an adjustment screw for DC voltage out and a thermostatically controlled fan on top of the all aluminum case. 

for $35 USD shipped, it seemed to be the best bang for my buck to be able to manually charge my battery bank with a generator running while at the same time running the generator for other uses. 

i've also got a morningstar TS-60 in diversion mode hooked to the bank for my wind turbine, so that "should" make this operation fairly foolproof.  not that i'm too worried about it, as i've got flooded batteries, and 15A going into a ~450Ah bank can't do that much harm. 

Oz mentioned switching out a resistor on the voltage adjustment screw (trim pot??) to increase the voltage being produced by the charger.  i wired it all up and hooked a volt meter to it while unloaded, and turned the screw.  i got reading from below 19V and maxed the screw at 28.3V.  i thought that was pretty good!  it would be nice to hit 31V if possible to be able to use this charger for equalization as well. 

questions:  if i've got this charger running at 28.3 and say hook it to my bank at 23.5, i presume this will clamp the charger down to the lower bank voltage, but will this hurt the charger? 

anyone know how to mod this?  (Oz?) to get 31VDC

thanks for any input!
adam


Offline oztules

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Re: 15a 24v chinese charger questions
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2012, 04:26:17 pm »
Hi Adam,
Different board all together to the one in mine from 7 years ago.... but your looks a simpler design ( mine had double sided and was delicate from memory).... no matter (looks the same from the outside though... well the box is the same at least)

The VR1 is your voltage control. It is simply part of a voltage divider network. It will have a series resistor going to it, and even perhaps one going away from it. The trim pot is just used to give you a small change to the resistance of one side of the divider.

I edited this part because it was cryptic:

As a simple start get some resistors about 10 time the value of the original in circuit ones close to the trimmer, and carefully place them across the resistor on the board, noting any change in voltage. The 10 times will change the value of the board resistor by about 10%.
I chose to vary the original value by 10% (by adding 10 times the original in parallel), because it will not hurt anything, but will give you an indication of which ones are in series with the pot...

Thankyou Rossw ( see rossw notes below)
end edit

When you find the one that pushes the voltage up or down, you know your in the voltage sense area. If it goes down, then use 10% less resistor in it's place, and you will probably be able to sweep the voltage up to 30v...  if it goes up same thing, but you can just piggyback it on the original.
Does that make sense?

The other way is to pull the thing out of the box, and then trace where the lines go to and from the pot. Then you will know exactly which resistor to fiddle with..

Generally they pull one side of the voltage divider to ground, and as the chip sees the divider voltage fall, it tries to compensate by changing the pulse width  (wider pulse) this pushes the voltage back up so the divider voltage it sees is comparable to it's reference voltage (usually another divider from the vref pin on the pwm chip.).


This style of supply has current regulation of generally 2 types. The first is an error amplifier that behaves like the voltage  system above. It just gets a read of the current (usually by a single wire shunt) and feeds this to the error amp2. It then decides if the current is within spec, or too much. If too  much, it backs off the pulse width to keep it in spec. So it will be held to batt voltage ( error amp v1 will remain out of the picture until the voltage gets too high) and the error amp (current) will take control.

Which ever error amp needs to over ride the pulse width will. So it will use the over voltage one if there is no load, and will use the current one if current exceeds a set amount.

The second one will shut the thing down for either a set period when it will try again, or until the load is removed... third type sets an scr, and need to be powered down before restarting at all (computer power supplies do this one. .... till you rip it out)

I have found they design these things with a lot of head room, and you can push them pretty hard .... particularly if you rewind the transformer with a bigger core, and change the current settings. I have pushed over 400 watts out of 150 watt ones  without problem this way.

but I'm evil ;)



..............oztules
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Offline rossw

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Re: 15a 24v chinese charger questions
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2012, 04:28:33 pm »
It would seem "likely" that the 1.2K (R41) and 1.5K (R40) are in series with the trimpot to limit its adjustment range.

Undoing the screws and checking where the tracks go on the board, from the trimpot (VR1) would confirm that pretty quickly.

If it is as I surmise, then whichever resistor is connected to the "high" end of the pot (ie, when it's adjusted to maximum voltage - logically the fully clockwise direction) could be slightly reduced to get you to 31V.

The least butchery way would be to tack a buffer resistor across it from the top. To reduce the 1.5K resistor a little (say, 10%), you could solder a 15K (brown, green, orange in the old 3-band resistors) across the 1K5 to reduce it to 1.363K.
Re-test your outputs and tweek the value if its not quite to your liking.

Edit: Damn, beaten by a minute.  Yeah, what oz says.....

Offline oztules

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Re: 15a 24v chinese charger questions
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2012, 04:45:40 pm »
Sorry Ross :)

One more thing..... DO NOT REVERSE THE BATTERY LEADS TO THESE THINGS..... it won't be nice (done that too.)

If  you think there is any likelihood of you doing an oztules, and something stupid (an oztules), then place a big diode across the + and - terminals with the cathode on the + and the anode on the - and an inline fuse in series with your leads.

That way when you do the inevitable, the fuse will blow and no one will know ;D


................oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline rossw

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Re: 15a 24v chinese charger questions
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2012, 04:55:47 pm »
As a simple start get some resistors about 10% of the ones close to the trimmer, and carefully place them across the resistor on the board, noting any change in voltage. The 10% I chose, because it will not hurt anything, but will give you an indication of which ones are in series with the pot...

Just a little clarification here. I know what oz meant... but the way he's written it could let out magic smoke....

When he says "Get some resistors about 10% of the ones"... he means "to CHANGE the combined value by 10%"
So if it's 1K, parallel 10K.
If it' 1.5K, parallel 15K

It's not perfect, but it's close.

The other thing - if you choose to solder them on, turn off and unplug the supply. If the iron is grounded (and it should be), bad things will probably happen if you touch a grounded iron to a live circuit. :)

Offline birdhouse

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Re: 15a 24v chinese charger questions
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2012, 05:03:58 pm »
first off, thanks a bunch for the help! 

i'm pretty dumb in this realm! 

so i just looked at the color coding chart on wiki.  i finally understand what all those colors mean! 

i did take the hint that oz meant 10% plus or minus of the actual rating.  by either adding 10% or finding a resistor that is 90% of the original.  now what i don't get, is:

Quote
So if it's 1K, parallel 10K.
If it' 1.5K, parallel 15K

wouldn't 10% of a 1000 be 1100?  and 10% of a 1500 be 1650?  i don't get where you get 10k and 15k respectively?? 

there's a radio shack three blocks away.  i may just walk down there and buy a bunch of them and go from there.  i think they're pretty cheap!

adam

Offline rossw

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Re: 15a 24v chinese charger questions
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2012, 05:08:48 pm »
i did take the hint that oz meant 10% plus or minus of the actual rating.  by either adding 10% or finding a resistor that is 90% of the original.  now what i don't get, is:

Quote
So if it's 1K, parallel 10K.
If it' 1.5K, parallel 15K

wouldn't 10% of a 1000 be 1100?  and 10% of a 1500 be 1650?  i don't get where you get 10k and 15k respectively?? 

Ahh, and that's *EXACTLY* the problem, and why I posted my comment.

If you have two 1K resistors  (1000 ohms each) and put them in parallel, you end up with a combined resistance of....
....  500 ohms!   Ie, two identical resistors in parallel makes one effective resistor of only 50% the resistance.

If you have a calculator handy, the formula is    R(effective) =  1 /  ((1/R1) + (1/R2))

So using a resistor thats approximately 10 TIMES the value of the original, will reduce the value of the pair to about 90% of the original value.

Does that make sense?

Offline birdhouse

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Re: 15a 24v chinese charger questions
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2012, 05:26:05 pm »
so, again.  very noob here with all this.  yes, your last post makes complete sense and i now realize i didn't understand your post before that!

so the colors of R40 is brown green red.  so 1500 so i should try adding a 15000???  ie brown green orange?
the color of R41 is red violet red.  so 2700 so i should try adding a 27000??? ie red violet orange??

i really appreciate the small electronics for dummys course!

adam

Offline birdhouse

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Re: 15a 24v chinese charger questions
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2012, 05:33:20 pm »
Success!!!

by adding a 15K to the R40 spot, the voltage changed from 22.2 to 23.8!!  (i had the pot turned down some while experimenting. 

now to do some soldering! 

thanks again!

adam

Offline oztules

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Re: 15a 24v chinese charger questions
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2012, 05:51:08 pm »
Thanks Ross..... I didn't think to explain what I was thinking.... good catch. Sounds like he's on the way now.

Adam, as a rule of thumb in these things if you change almost any electrical component by 10%, bad things don't normally happen ( unless it is mission critical stuff).

Ross explained it right, and I was thinking one thing and  obviously writing another thinking you would know what I was getting at..... must remember to take my smart pills. sorry.

Keep us informed as to the outcome (final). get a little more headroom and aim to get to 31 or 32v at the upper end perhaps (  may want to scare up an equalise one day)

You can also change the trim pot and the resistors divider to get a much wider sweep range. These things are pretty forgiving ... ie end up with 24-34v

Ross can you change the original screed to reflect that in case someone does not read this far before playing please.... I no longer can.



...............oztules

scratch that Ross  I was looking at the recent post page.... can't modify from there. It's fixed
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline birdhouse

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Re: 15a 24v chinese charger questions
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2012, 06:00:34 pm »
thanks goes out to Oz and Ross.  i'm not going to take a picture of my solder job, because i'm pretty sure you would all have a good laugh!  now it tops out at 30.9V.  perfect for equalize even when it's really cold out! 

i've modded all sorts of carbs, engines, suspensions, chainsaws, ect, but this is the FIRST small electronics thing ive ever modded.  couldn't have done it without the help from this board!

adam

Offline ghurd

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Re: 15a 24v chinese charger questions
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2012, 08:15:32 pm »
I am not exactly sure whats going on here, but I am glad it works.

If the 15A charger gets up to 'whatever' voltage, the TS-60 will divert the extra power to keep the bank at the voltage the TS-60 wants, right?

Oz and Ross,
Anybody concerned the ICs beta will decrease the circuit's hysteresis?
Probably not a worry for this, just something that popped into my head.
Might be a good thing since the TS-60 is PWM.
G-

Offline birdhouse

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Re: 15a 24v chinese charger questions
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2012, 08:32:13 pm »
Ghurd-
i think i get what you're asking.  the TS-60 should act as a controller of the "new" charger while in use.  i've got a 50A dump load hooked to it, so that should be fine.  i totally understand that while the bank is in absorb and float mode, i'd be dumping most of the power i just created via a genset. 

not ideal by any means, but in the winter, especially during hunting season, i run a generator to power up a 32' airstream trailer that has so many inefficiencies it's crazy.  so i figure, might as well charge up the bank since a gen set is running anyways. 

sometimes, i run the trailer off the inverter for the night, and wake with a battery voltage somewhere around 23.8 (loaded).  at this point, it is going to be really nice to fire up the genset, remove the trailer plug from the inverter, and into the genset, AND charge my batteries at the same time! 

as time goes on, i want to replace all the lighting in the trailer with 24v lights.  remove a few things, and get a much smaller/more efficient 120 to 12v converter to power the things that are a pain to change.  IE: furnace blower/ignition, exhaust hood fan for cooking, oven light, ect.  right now, the 120 to 12v converter is larger than a loaf of bread, and with NOTHING running is very warm to the touch.  i might look into a computer power supply as its replacement...  still thinking on that...

adam

Offline oztules

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Re: 15a 24v chinese charger questions
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2012, 08:36:52 pm »
Not sure I understand the question Ghurd.

in the op amps? or feedback loop? or......??

The output is stable to within probably 50th of a volt. set it where ever you want.... no need for a divert, it just closes up the pulse width at set V

Not sure I follow

There will be no discernible ripple on the output.

elucidate please?  :)


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Offline ghurd

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Re: 15a 24v chinese charger questions
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2012, 09:12:06 pm »
"elucidate"?

Not ripple.
In my mind, the voltage divider current seemed kind of high given the values of the fixed resistors.
I did not consider a feedback loop.
I only considered the voltage drop in each half of the voltage divider when the output state changed.  And with a large voltage divider current, changing something much (beta) could have a significant effect.
Seems kind of backwards thinking as I type it out.

Adam,
NOTHING is ever ideal!
If this modification is better than it was before, then it is closer to ideal.
32' Airstream, hunting season, and 50A dump load... I hope the dump load is inside the Airstream.
Makes me cold just thinking about it.
G-