Author Topic: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out  (Read 17643 times)

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Offline Watt

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2012, 07:49:40 am »
I'd just like to add a bit on the horsepower ( calculation ) thing.  100 hp is not 100 hp as it seems.  100 hp at 2200 rpm is 202 lbs/ft of torque at that 2200 rpm.  The ' same ' 100 hp at 4400 rpm is ~119 lbs/ft of torque.  To multiply the torque, a gear box is need and with the losses through that box, the higher rpm will not produce the same " HP " at the wheels as the low rpm torque engine.

I believe you nailed this one with perfect examples for sure Oz.  No replacement for displacement for sure.  Oh wait except BOOST, COOL BOOST at that.  Ha Ha. 

Tractor = Linear hp  = Force x Velocity / 33000

car = Rotating hp = T x Rpm / 5252

car = Rotating Torque = HP * 5252 / RPM

The tractor is draw bar hp most likely.  And the car, well most likely at the flywheel before drive line losses.  But, who knows how it is in other states. 


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Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2012, 08:19:51 am »
Interesting, the best I can get those ferrite that you use is $330 for 30 magnets over here....

Yes, that is interesting.  I've been getting them for $113 for a box of 60.

Quote
I was never going to sway you any more than Flux and Dan and Hugh couldn't sway you on single phase and magnet/disk copper usage (I agree with them on those points), so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

That's right.  What some folks fail to realize is that I don't follow the book.  I don't even refer to it.  In all that discussion over single phases and magnets/copper I still hold the trophy for building the most powerful ferrite magnet generator, with sustained output capability of 60 amps @ 30 volt without overheat in a 78 lb package.  And since then, on the last three I've bumped the rating to 78 amps @ 30 volts continuous by winding them with 12 AWG, and still keep the stator temp below 135 degrees F on a sustained bench test without any extra cooling air blowing on the generator.

Folks tend to get so hung up on book theory that they fail the see the forest for the trees sometimes.  My goal was to build the smallest, lightest, and most powerful ferrite generator that had ever been built in the homebrew world for a 3.8 meter turbine.  I didn't give a hoot about what the book said, number of phases, or magnets.  And I accomplished it.  And I duplicated it 6 times on 6 other machines after that and every one of them is flying today.

So in all that ordeal of people telling me what I'm doing "wrong", I have yet to see somebody put their money where their mouth is and match it or exceed it.  It has to be less than 14" in diameter (overall including the stator), weigh less than 78 lbs, be able to develop 1.8 kW continuous on a 24 volt system without overheat, and be easy for homebrew folks to duplicate.

So folks need to understand that that's where I come from.  I spent 19 years working as a mechanical engineer in one of the most competitive businesses on earth before I got burned out.  Businesses like that hire engineers that not only think outside the box, they don't even recognize that the box exists.  And that's why nobody is going to sway me.  I get these "visions" of a design concept and I have to build it and test it.  And when I do it I'm on a mission and casual observers might think I'm nuts, but they don't see what my goal is.
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Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2012, 09:44:28 am »
I believe you nailed this one with perfect examples for sure Oz.  No replacement for displacement for sure.  Oh wait except BOOST, COOL BOOST at that.  Ha Ha.

Yeah.  Actually my main toy is not even wind turbines.  No "cool boost" here - 280 psi @ 650 degrees F with 9 quarts of water injected @ 2,500 psi every 10 seconds at each intake port and the bottom two pressure stages just to control the fire.

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Quote
The tractor is draw bar hp most likely.  And the car, well most likely at the flywheel before drive line losses.  But, who knows how it is in other states.

The automotive industry has used SAE, SAE net, insurance method, and about a dozen others - which ever happens to look good in the sales propaganda.  Tractors are rated by usable power measured on a dyno at the PTO and drawbar in the Nebraska Tests under a very stringent set of rules.  Even so, some companies like International Harvester tried to "cheat" by running some of those older tractors like the 806 diesel with a D361 in it at 1,130 rpm on the 1,000 shaft for their "factory rating", while the Nebraska Test requires 1,000 rpm.  It sold a lot of tractors with the bigger "factory" number though   :)
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Offline Watt

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2012, 02:19:10 pm »
I believe you nailed this one with perfect examples for sure Oz.  No replacement for displacement for sure.  Oh wait except BOOST, COOL BOOST at that.  Ha Ha.

Yeah.  Actually my main toy is not even wind turbines.  No "cool boost" here - 280 psi @ 650 degrees F with 9 quarts of water injected @ 2,500 psi every 10 seconds at each intake port and the bottom two pressure stages just to control the fire.

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

Quote
The tractor is draw bar hp most likely.  And the car, well most likely at the flywheel before drive line losses.  But, who knows how it is in other states.

The automotive industry has used SAE, SAE net, insurance method, and about a dozen others - which ever happens to look good in the sales propaganda.  Tractors are rated by usable power measured on a dyno at the PTO and drawbar in the Nebraska Tests under a very stringent set of rules.  Even so, some companies like International Harvester tried to "cheat" by running some of those older tractors like the 806 diesel with a D361 in it at 1,130 rpm on the 1,000 shaft for their "factory rating", while the Nebraska Test requires 1,000 rpm.  It sold a lot of tractors with the bigger "factory" number though   :)
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Chris

And there you go again.  Damn hp rating of 1000's if I remember right.  Nice

Let's see, 5000 hp at 6000rpm is 4376lbs/ft torque.  Heck, I guess we can build a turbine for 5252rpm and the hp and torque would be the same.   But, I'd love to watch that tractor pull..... 
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Offline bvan1941

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2012, 04:22:42 pm »
oztules, Chris and all-
Lively point and counterpoint discussion. I've learned more and got a good reference to reread. Not worried about the "hijacking"
diversion, it happens.
Balance, in designing ones project and the components in the project makeup, are important.

 One thing that stands out after all this discussion(and many others) is that, there's a point where picking a rotor that delivers the requirements that give good low-med. speed torque/rpm's to do the job, may be large enough to seriously worry about controlling the "beast" IF THE WINDS BLOW HARD FOR A WHILE. Above worrying about burning the gen., we've got a very large rotating mass going ROGUE 40' + in the air.

Many times in discussions, control of the rotor ( lack /fear of ability to control) MAY LIMIT a potential design.
Experienced builders cite rotors overcoming any furling control. Some are pretty close to approximately 500 rpm's when that happens. Others with larger diameters don't specifically cite any rpm's but, when the winds get above approximately 25-30mph clearly indicate the rotor to staunchly face into the wind and overdrive/power the system.

No matter the rotor size, it is a concern that is being overcome by builders using several ways to combat loss of control.

Clearly you(oztules), utilize the inherent design of the Induction motor to self limit gen. power when rotor overspeed happens.
(you and m12ax7 also mention the use of transformers to trade voltage for lower system voltage and much more current.)

Chris on the other hand has upped the gen. efficiencies (minimizing stator losses) using a transmission and limiting the size of his rotor and as he says limiting to under  +/- 500rpm's-- for positive control! He has been using the MPPT controller advantageously too.

Midwoud1(sorry if I don't have Handle correct)- He has approached rotor problems by blade pitch control of his own design. He may have to tweak some things, but has made significant gains and demonstrated success at this juncture.

By asking these questions many small problems have been clarified for me. I have been reading the forums and over the past few years and building all parts of my small systems, experienced a number of things +/-.

All of these approaches are certainly credible and some can be achieved by a number of us, with some help by the original innovators!
 I think much more can be achieved using the forum, learning how to overcome problems, bypassing failures and achieving significant improvements, because of our innovative members. thanks for the in-depth discussion.

"The wind shows no mercy" --oztules    One to remember!
Bill









Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2012, 05:18:07 pm »
Chris on the other hand has upped the gen. efficiencies (minimizing stator losses) using a transmission and limiting the size of his rotor and as he says limiting to under  +/- 500rpm's-- for positive control! He has been using the MPPT controller advantageously too.

That being said, on smaller rotors it's pretty easy to control them in really strong wind with a good generator.  And I'm comfortable with them doing that.

On larger rotors I would tend towards a variable pitch prop.  I have built and experimented with a couple variable pitch props on smaller turbines in the past and found no real benefit.  After 5 meters in rotor diameter, or so, I would incorporate it into the design.  I suppose this could be construed as once again adding another layer of cost and complexity, but I feel a variable pitch prop would help me get the most from a larger turbine, and have it be reliable.  I feel that waggy-tail furling has its limitations and is not a good method of power control with larger machines.  Even Bergey realizes that and they simply unload the turbine if the furling fails to hold it within reasonable power limits.  But the Bergey's PowerFlex rotor is designed to be able to run up to 119 mph wind speed unloaded.  Few homebrew turbines can do that.
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But, I'd love to watch that tractor pull.....

Watt - I got a whole bunch of videos that, someday when I get time, I have to get off tapes.  Somebody else took this one from 2007.  Don't remember my distance - it was either 288 or 298.  Whatever it was, I won.

Offline Watt

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2012, 08:14:53 pm »
Chris on the other hand has upped the gen. efficiencies (minimizing stator losses) using a transmission and limiting the size of his rotor and as he says limiting to under  +/- 500rpm's-- for positive control! He has been using the MPPT controller advantageously too.

That being said, on smaller rotors it's pretty easy to control them in really strong wind with a good generator.  And I'm comfortable with them doing that.

On larger rotors I would tend towards a variable pitch prop.  I have built and experimented with a couple variable pitch props on smaller turbines in the past and found no real benefit.  After 5 meters in rotor diameter, or so, I would incorporate it into the design.  I suppose this could be construed as once again adding another layer of cost and complexity, but I feel a variable pitch prop would help me get the most from a larger turbine, and have it be reliable.  I feel that waggy-tail furling has its limitations and is not a good method of power control with larger machines.  Even Bergey realizes that and they simply unload the turbine if the furling fails to hold it within reasonable power limits.  But the Bergey's PowerFlex rotor is designed to be able to run up to 119 mph wind speed unloaded.  Few homebrew turbines can do that.
--
Chris

But, I'd love to watch that tractor pull.....

Watt - I got a whole bunch of videos that, someday when I get time, I have to get off tapes.  Somebody else took this one from 2007.  Don't remember my distance - it was either 288 or 298.  Whatever it was, I won.

That puller is awesome.  I'm afraid that now I must see it in action, first hand.  We have nothing near that much fun around here.  We have a few pick-up pullers around and give them lots of glory but.....  You know I'm sure what I mean.  Thanks for sharing that video.
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Offline ghurd

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2012, 09:18:12 pm »
Bill,
Be wary of implications based on statements based on "New Facts".
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Offline m12ax7

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2012, 09:51:08 pm »
bvan1941..

Your statement ....

...Clearly you(oztules), utilize the inherent design of the Induction motor to self limit gen. power when rotor overspeed happens.
(you and m12ax7 also mention the use of transformers to trade voltage for lower system voltage and much more current.)....... 

although is certainly true, I'd like to mention that my comment about using a transformer was about "matching" the {impedance} output of a servo motor that is being used as a alternator/generator, to a load.  Along with the understanding that one is selecting the servo more on price and/or availability.  As an example,  I found my servo in the junk and paid scrap price for it ( think I paid about $4.00 for my 7.5KW servo)

When one is building their own generator and are winding their own coils (and doing it correctly)  they shouldn't need to use a transformer to match impedance or step up/down voltage or current.   

ax7

Offline bvan1941

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2012, 09:59:48 pm »
m12ax7,
Got what you mean. I too had envisioned using other than a self-made generator for my project. So that was prompting my question about matching impedance via transformers. Do you have good results with your set-up?
Thanks,
Bill

Offline bvan1941

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2012, 10:35:26 pm »
To all,
In trying to figure out what power I can expect with my new project, I have used "Alton's wind speed chart" to roughly calculate what power the wind has at speeds under 24mph and what rpms can be expected also.
(Don't hold my following figures to be exact, there's a small amount of extrapolation I did. I tried to be conservative.) The following numbers are what I come up with:
                        Avail.                  Approx.
wind speed      Wind power      Rotor speed
10 mph=          120w=                200rpm
15 mph=          380w=                300rpm
20 mph=          950w=                400rpm
23 mph=          1400w=              450rpm
Taking  into account the efficiencies and inherent losses read about, it's troubling figuring out how to get significant power under 20mph.
I'm not sure how some people are getting so much power from their systems. I know there's aggregate figures and the add up. I know in my area the wind isn't steady enough. maybe I'll have to move to the great land of the winds ---  are the numbers I came up with valid for avail. wind power and rotor rpm projections?
Bill   


Offline oztules

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2012, 03:09:31 pm »
Those figures look fair for about 3m machine for my money. As I alluded to in an earlier response, power is in high winds, not much in the low winds.

Here we have winds, and consistent winds. You know where these winds blow as all the vegetation leans away from the prevailing wind direction. If you don't see this in the native flora... you havent got real wind.

Little mills put out good power in high winds, medium machines put out useable power in reasonable winds, and big ones put out useable power most of the time.......Nothing describes a mill like the SWEPT AREA.... no smarty theory, no cool bananas electronics, no fancy profiles... big is better..... and bigger is better still.

The 35 footer I play with from time to time, drifts in and out of cut in at about 2000-5000w.... and is going well at about 35kw... the 55 footer is much better still. In a decent wind they can do 70-100kw. Simple induction motors with gearbox, grid tied. No pitch control, fixed blades, old irrigation 3 phase motors for generators..... no class at all.

But you must have wind for all sizes..... it's just that the bigger they are, the better they seem to do with low winds.



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Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2012, 04:30:46 pm »
I wonder what the difference would be on a wind site that averages 6 m/s between two 3.2 meter machines that operate at 34% efficiency vs a single 5 meter machine that can only average 25% efficiency?

Actually I already know the answer.  The big one loses even though it's got more swept area.
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Offline oztules

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2012, 05:42:07 pm »
Yes, the answer is simple, and you are correct.

But the cost differential is laughable.
A 5m machine of 25% is cheap to build. A 34% 3.2 will all the gadgetry is hyper expensive. Two towers, two controllers, two dump systems, 2 sets of bought blades ( you claim  home built blades are inferior ) 2 clippers  and the list goes on.... and more real estate to put them on.

$500 gives me a 5m machine.... 22-27% depending on how I match the blades to the expected wind regime  .......your up for $1600 for mppt, before you even start to build your two machines with their two towers, and two sets of blades, and two sets of clippers..... and they will probably fail within 8 years anyway.

I haven't seen inside these things , but I suspect you will find a reasonable sized cap bank suffering ripple. They will fail by design... just like batteries will. The KOH will eventually cause failure as in ALL modern electronic stuff with PWM power stages instead of the old reliable transformer.... from your computer , your dvd recorder, satellite transciever.. you name it. It cannot be gotten around. I think the best that the worlds very best manufacturer can possibly guarantee is in the 8 year range. Electrolytic caps are most fallible, and you will do well to keep them as cool as possible to prolong their useful life. They will last 16 times as long at 60C than at 100C.

The electrolyte is the main cause for the lifetime being limited for the cap. It must continuously modify it's electrical characteristics at the dielectric layer, and a combination of self healing and drift through the seals will sap the electrolyte down. Heat will make the electrolyte less viscous, which will actually help lower the ESR. The current flow is mediated by the ionic nature of the KOH, and as the ESR lowers, higher current may be seem in the caps.

The ripple forced on the caps by the buck switching (superimposing the switched DC on the background DC) is the culprit. It cant be gotten around, any more than the evil death of batteries can't be gotten around. Both systems can be designed to be less abusive to the batts and caps, but only by never discharging the batts too far for too long, or keeping the ripple to a very low level so that the caps electrolyte gets an easier ride.

The estimated lifetime can be empirically guessed at by the use of temp time graphs from the various manufacturers. Temperature and voltage will help accelerate the degradation of the electrochemical characteristics of the capacitor .

So you have built in death  in your 2x3.2, and expense I can't comprehend. Living where you are in contact with the current manufacturers helps, but where i am... forget it. It would cost $500 just to send it back.

So I won't be swayed by bells and whistles either. I still applaud you for doing it, but I would still caution anyone else particularly if they are not in the USA to either build their own, or stick to tried and true methods.

I'm not sure the comparison was useful.


...............oztules

Edit: It is interesting to contemplate what will happen on about 5-8 years hence with all the grid tie inverters that are out there. They have been installed in this country extensively over the last 2 years or so.... there must come a time where they are all going to fail together. The cap failure rate is a bathtub graph... a sample will die within days, then drop to a long period of only scant random failure, then toward the expected life end, it will rise up again very steeply then taper off. There will be piles and piles of grid tie units on the tip.... will be interesting times indeed.

I suppose to ones mounted on the sunny side of the houses will go first.


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Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2012, 06:04:06 pm »
I think the comparison is useful because efficiency is as important as size.  Cost, for me, is really no object.  I got a brand new 80 foot Rohn SSV tower laying in my machine shed that I haven't put up yet.  I'm enjoying the smaller very efficient turbines because they really don't need to furl until the wind speed gets up to 15-18 m/s where they finally overwhelm the ~84 amp limit into the battery bank plus the clipper load.  They don't take NEAR as much tower as a bigger machine does.  The wiring to wire them up is cheap - all it takes is 10 gauge down the tower.  The rectifiers don't get hot.

Splitting out your incoming power sources into several smaller ones vs one big one makes it easier to manage, improves odds for higher survival wind speeds, and redundancy.  Imagine if they tried to make a Boeing 747 fly with one huge engine strapped to the roof vs four smaller ones hanging under the wings.

There's a lot of things I like about the smaller very high-performance machines.  Not to mention that they're WAAAY fun to build    :)
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