Author Topic: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out  (Read 17943 times)

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Offline Janne

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2012, 05:22:39 am »
Thanks oztules for your posting. That sums it up real nicely.
Beyond the wolf border

Offline oztules

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2012, 06:09:00 am »
Ghurd, yes I liked the windstuffnow Ed's $5 download calculator. and bought it some 7 years ago..... but now I use linux
I used altons, but felt that Ed deserved a "donation" because he was an inspiration.

I use altons now as it is web based, but Ed at windstuff now inspired a lot of the things that have transpired since. He is a great innovator and deserves attention.

... and thanks Janne...... it is as I see it.



..............oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline bvan1941

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2012, 06:30:17 pm »
oztules,
 A lot to digest. Considering the components (one has), the area's wind band, picking a correct rotor to match, may not be very apparent! Blades with approximate TSR's of 5-7 it would seem to require significant rpm's / wind speed ( + 9-14mph?) to develop the necessary torque to make any real power made good. 
The more I think about "matching the load to the blades," what comes to mind is "how many amps do you want to see for a wind speed, based upon knowing the rpm's gen. has to make for the amperage desired (on a 12v system as example). This brings me back to figure what wind power is available at that speed and what blade can provide the required torque. A sobering moment for me was to accept that my avg. wind speed falls below12mph.  Most gens. need to be turned at least +200-400 rpm for any significant power into batteries. If one has a 24v system the problem seems to get worse to "match the load/ rotor" equation (in this scenario).

Example for clarification:

In this scenario I would have opted for GOE-222 blade for raw torque under load and possibly a up-speed transmission for gen. rpms
to put acceptable amperage in the batteries.  Is this your definition of matching the blades to the load?" Anyone in this type of  may think "add more blades to maximize the torque" once the rpm's to the gen. was established.
Bill


Offline bvan1941

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2012, 06:38:17 pm »
oztules,
I forgot to add that in choosing a higher TSR blade would not allow the blade to "fly enough" to make the required torque and the necessary rpm's for the gen.
Bill

Offline m12ax7

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2012, 11:40:51 pm »
Hello!

I've mentioned before that I've "got no dog in this hunt",  I live in a low area with a ridge right next to me, would require a 150 ft tower and that's just not going to happen.

But I still often read these threads and try to absorb some knowledge, and I've got a question about this subject (matching blades to alternator/generator).    If one is designing a system from scratch,  shouldn't one match   blades to generator and generator to load?
Wouldn't it make sense to have all three   Blades/Generator/Load  variables matched at the same time?  I understand that there are electronic controllers available (to match generator to load),  but some sound pretty pricey.  If one keeps the generator to load matching part of the  blades to generator matching process could one save $$ over all?

Or is this out in left field? 
ax7

Offline 97fishmt

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2012, 12:19:46 am »
Any power helps the battery.

Can you put the turbine on the ridge?

Offline Wolvenar

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2012, 05:29:58 am »
@m12ax7
From my understanding matching over the entire range and conditions that the batteries/load  may be could prove to be difficult.
 
I gather the biggest problem is that the match is almost always the worst it can be when the need for power is the greatest. This of course is also generally when there is the least wind.

I'll leave mathematical explanation to someone more qualified to do so, maybe oztules?
Trying to make power from alternative energy any which way I can.
Just to abuse what I make. (and run this site)

Offline oztules

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2012, 05:51:00 am »
12ax7
Yes thats the ticket. The best, simplest and cheapest way to make power is to match the blades to the alt and the alt to the batts..... easy when you say it quickly.

The competing interests are diametrically arranged against us all the way.
1. We want least resistance to keep the I^2 losses to a minimum...... but less resistance means more stall sooner.

2. We want voltage to rise in the stator as rpm increases.... but the batteries present a non-dynamic load for the most part, and try to pull the blades off their nominated TSR

3. We have a linear relationship of wind speed to RPM.. but a cubed (theoretical....in practice perhaps closer to squared than cubed I think) power curve... so cubed to linear problem.

4. we want power in low winds.... but there is precious little there to get.

We need to balance these concerns as best we can, and taking into account what we have at hand..... a big ask.


bvan1941.
Don't be fooled by the smoke and mirrors. You can have high torque, or high rpm, but only both in high winds.

Think about it some more. If you sacrifice rpm for torque.... thats all you have gained... and a bigger alternator.
If you sacrifice torque for rpm, same deal... and a smaller alternator   ........you lose one to gain the other.... but the net gain is nil.

So if you add more of the same blade, then torque goes up, speed goes down... net gain nil.... but a bigger alternator.

Power is power. emf is the rpm, amps are the torque... WATTS= AMPS TIMES VOLTAGE ..... increase amps you must decrease voltage for the same power..... same as power = torque times rpm for the same power. You can shuffle the figures all you want, but if you win on one, you must lose on the other..... and we need both.

If we have a 100 hp tractor and a 100 hp car... both have the same power. The car may do 90 mph, the tractor20 mph, car 1 tonne tractor 4 tonne. Tractor motor long stroke low rpm, car over square, high rpm.... still the same power, but both cant do the same job. One is MATCHED to the plough, and one to the highway.... notice the high torque low rpm unit is heavier than the high rpm, low torque unit??

Thats matching the load.

We want maximum rpm we can muster... so 3 blade tsr7... and easy to carve and strong profile.. if your in a poor zone, then consider twice the diameter for a normal zone, and you may get something useful.... but you MUST furl early too.

Gearbox adds another unnecessary layer of cost and complexity. So too does an MPPT. If we spend that all on magnets, we will be able to build a much much bigger machine.... and nothing describes the power of a mill more than diameter.

If I read Chris right, the 3.8 was around the same for mild winds as the mppt special 3.2m machine. My 4m machine would probably be more again with 5kw bursts at the top end.. size really matters in lower winds. Build it big, and the torque you crave will be available. For mine only 300 watts@12mph, for 3.2m maybe 200w.


Visitors.... must go.... later

.........oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2012, 11:14:28 am »
If we have a 100 hp tractor and a 100 hp car... both have the same power.

To throw a different monkey wrench into the works, they use different hp rating systems on cars and tractors.  The car uses the SAE method, the tractor uses the Nebraska rating.

Some years back we had a IH 806 gas rated at about 96 hp.  The engine tossed a rod and put a hole thru the block.  So we got the bright idea of putting a 175 hp small block Chevy in it with a transmission to gear it down to the 2,600 rpm the tractor engine ran at.  I put a Woodward belt driven governor on it to govern it at 4,400 rpm, upright headers - it was really cool and sounded nice.  We put it on the blower and found out that 175 hp Chevy didn't have even CLOSE to the power the tractor engine had.  It lasted about 6 hours on the blower and the small block threw a rod.

Not that it applies to the topic, but thought I'd throw that out   :)
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Offline bvan1941

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2012, 01:12:28 pm »
ostules,
maybe I just "saw the light" --- It is in your opening statement, when you said-  "you only have high torque, or high rpm's and you can only have both in high winds."

If I hear you correctly, without correct wind speeds, you cannot have high torque or high rpm's -- either one!!!
Those of us that don't have the necessary winds---we're just having conversation about wind turbines and we can try to get enough swept area to have fun. Just get the rotor stopped before it gets to runaway speed, when we get serious winds!
 Guess I"ll call my dog in and get back in the truck----LOL
Bill

Offline oztules

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2012, 02:49:05 pm »
bvan1941
It's more than that. Poor winds are exponentially worse than good winds. The power drops out at a staggering rate. Mine at 12mph may do 300 watts, at 30 mph we could do over 5000w if we use transformer switching, or drove a resistive load....

Keep that in mind.

Now for design in low winds, (any winds) we need to balance ALL the competing difficulties. All are inter-related to each other. Utopia is running at design TSR, not stalling the blades and converting all their power into the batteries.... simple.

In low winds this is easier than catering for the whole range of winds, as we can cheat a bit.

Assume for a moment, that 400 watts was the limit, and we never expect more than 12 mph.  Put simply, we could build a big rotor tsr7 diameter 4m 3 blade. The rpm will be low, so we wind the coils with lots of turns, lots of coils and lots of smallish magnets.... we end up with a big stator that has high resistance..... everything we usually try to avoid like the plague.

In this case it will be ideal. The high resistance will give great flexibility to the blade set, the large stator will keep cool thermally (400w over say 250 sq ins of cooling area 18" diameter stator). If the resistance is too high, we will lose all the power in the stator so we can't go silly, but you can see that we can play with the variables too get what we want...... but it must furl or burn up when a real wind comes.

Cant have everything. In stronger winds, we need to pay much more attention to the resistance, as we have lots more power to overcome it, so we start aiming for 1 ohm star stators, and early furling, if you have my wind, you aim for .5ohm stators or less because we have the wind to drive them right up the scale.

As our expected power changes... so too do the magnets size and strength. With bigger blades, comes more torque, power and less rpm for a given wind speed, so the alternator will be much bigger, and use as much magnet as we can cram into it, and as much copper in the winding window as we can jam.

Gearboxes give us another way to increase the rpm, and get the alternator size down.... it offers no more than that, and with some losses, but with induction motor generation into the grid a 14:1 box will make it work, and nothing without it. For Chris, allows decent power from weak magnets in a smaller unit (easier than say 28" rotors), and it was a way cool exercise to compress the alternators size.

You must think of all aspects at every stage. Don't go up a blind alley trying to optomise any one part, they all need attention at the same time. It really is a symphony, and it must all work together to get a decent result.

If you optomise the alt (zero R) you will stall at cut in, if you optomise the torque (TSR<1), you won't get to cut in, if you optomise the rpm (tsr12 etc) you have no torque when you do get to cut in.... they all need to match each other.


................oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2012, 05:58:41 pm »
Gearbox adds another unnecessary layer of cost and complexity. So too does an MPPT. If we spend that all on magnets, we will be able to build a much much bigger machine

Afraid I have to disagree with this.  It's not unnecessary, it's not costly, and not all that complex.

When I first started looking at gearing from an engineering standpoint, I was able to build a small, high ouput generator with better performance than a direct drive 16 pole for a 3.8m machine.  The cost in 8 magnets (at that time) alone more than paid for what it cost me to design and build a decent gearbox for it.  Plus it allowed one thing you cannot do with a direct drive turbine - design a very efficient generator and match it to the blades using the gear ratio to put both the rotor and the generator at their peak at the average wind speed on your site.  And at the same time allowing lots of headroom at the top end to prevent burnout because the greatly more efficient generator doesn't dissipate as much heat in the stator.

Later I used the concept to build a ferrite magnet unit that's relatively light and small and runs up to 100 volts.

The gains from both far exceed ~5% loss in gearing.  Attempting to accomplish that without gearing is what adds cost and complexity.

Same with MPPT - it's not unnecessary.  I once thought it was.  But after learning about it and actually building a turbine for it and flying it, there is no way you will match a turbine that uses it without adding considerably more expense and complexity to the machine than the controller adds to the overall system.

Just wanted to point out that nothing is ever "unnecessary" in engineering - it's all in the design.  When you start looking at a design and set a performance goal, but can never reach that goal because the things that make it possible are discounted as "unnecessary", you are merely limiting your design choices and not thinking outside the box.
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Offline oztules

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2012, 10:02:04 pm »
Yes it's all in the design.

There is very little I can agree on here.

Your costs are through the roof compared to mine. I built 2 x  4 meter units for the cost of your black box. Either one will probably out perform your latest 3.2m unit.

They have run for 4 years or so, and only some magnet rot to show for it. They run in winds I can hardly feel on my cheek, and in low winds will certainly whip a 3.2 and in high winds I try to keep them less then 2.5kw.

With a stator change and a boost converter (or cap bank), they would sustain 3kw or more without stalling the blades too much at all (curves match much better with 16mph cut in)

There is no extra cost, little/cheap extra complexity..... just simple stuff.

If we were to look at a single swept area as a maxima, then your arguments would be more justified. I am happy though to not match perfectly through the range, and just make it bigger if more power is required. Blades are near free, steel is cheap, a few more magnets (go to 16 per plate) is not terribly expensive ( I have heaps of 50x15 n50 and 50x12.5 n45).

But I also have a big milling machine, lathe, brake press (60 ton) guillotine etc. Making a gearbox is not the issue at all.... simple stuff even on a remote island...... but why would I try to stall the blades.

I also do a lot of power electronics, so that would not stop me either...... so I don't mean complexity as in I cant do it or understand it, I mean not needed if you just want to make real power.

There are lots of other ways too. The AWP up on the hill is 3.7m It can do easy 24-35 kwh per 24hrs. It is ferrite, no gearbox, radial (ok I rewired its 90 coils from 1kw to 2kw) It runs at 200-500 volts, transforms down and drives the battery bank (48v). 7 years without problem after we ironed out the manufacturing defects that the Africans built into it. ( poor electronics we rebuilt, poor fibreglass blades, and terrible tolerances in the machining and shocking yaw system and woeful furling ).... but it's redeeming feature is the armature reactance that stops it from burning up no matter how fast it runs.... so it runs flat out day after day 1000 feet above the surrounding land.... sort of built in load matching/limiting

So we don't need to do other than match the load as best we can in direct drive mode to make usable power..... unless we feel the urge to build the interesting stuff because we can, but it is not necessary, and adds cost/complexity to the unit. The gearbox is a useful idea, but it is still likely to introduce stall with neo magnets I would think, which can already stall a design without speed increase.

So, I don't expect to sway you at all.

I won't knock you for doing what you have done, quite the contrary, but I would not encourage anyone else to do it either.

If I were to use a gearbox, it would likely be on an induction conversion, but even that smacks of shooting yourself in the foot just to test out the first aid kit

As you said it is all in the design. For me good design is doing the required job with the simplest fool proof system. The wind takes no prisoners over here.



................oztules

Edit. I have never understood why people on these boards don't use transformers in their design. Microwaves are cheap (free even here) and plentiful, and can provide mountains of laminates to build very powerful transformers...... but no one else seems to do it. Even quiet day/ heavy weather tap changing would yield surprising performance differences..... including your headroom. It  is easy to double the current in the bank while decreasing the current in the stator on windy days. The AWP would never see more than about 7 or 8 amps in the stator while delivering 38 or more amps@55v.

The stator from the AWP:

530-0

Ferrites in the AWP:



Another ferrite unit I built only 1.5kw or so

Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline ChrisOlson

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2012, 12:26:57 am »
Your costs are through the roof compared to mine. I built 2 x  4 meter units for the cost of your black box. is not terribly expensive ( I have heaps of 50x15 n50 and 50x12.5 n45).

That's my point too - I can build 4.2 gearboxes for the price of 32 of those magnets and get at least of good of performance from the machine using ferrites as you can, spending all that money on fragile and corrosion-prone neo magnets.

As I stated somewhere else, the same principles that apply to solar panels wired in high voltage configurations with MPPT apply to wind turbines.  After trying the MPPT and putting a few weeks on it I've decided I like it.  I got 20 kWh from that little 3.2 meter machine last Thursday at an average for the 24 hours of 7.9 m/s.  The wind died down a bit on Friday and it only made 13.6 kWh.  But it still matches the bigger 3.8 meter machines in lighter winds and beats them handily at anything over 6.5 m/s.

So no, you won't sway me.  I'm not a first time turbine builder either   :)
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Offline oztules

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Re: Wind speed power verses Generator Power out
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2012, 05:15:23 am »
Interesting, the best I can get those ferrite that you use is $330 for 30 magnets over here.... I only paid about $1000 for 100 of the 50mmx12.5mm neo over here. More recently bought 50 bigger ones from china through a member here for not much more/unit.

Power for power the neo's are way cheaper here than the ferrite. .... that nails it for me.

I have now got 20 litres of west systems epoxy. The original ones were potted in resin (f/glass) as was the tradition at that time.
I have learnt my lesson, and the next time they will be better protected from the marine weather here.... probably another three years away yet.

I was never going to sway you any more than Flux and Dan and Hugh couldn't sway you on single phase and magnet/disk copper usage (I agree with them on those points), so we'll just have to agree to disagree. But on a price basis the ferrites are a non starter for axials here from the look of it. ... never mind the mppt and gear box.

I would like to explore the ferrites in a iron core configuration again though. I am a big fan of armature reactance. Although I can beat the AWP easily with headline figures, it's idiot proof  current limiting is a worthy feature..... but I still have a hundred or so of the neo's to use up first.

The other problem I now have is the solar panels I built put out more power than we can use.... so the windmills are of less and less value as the days tick by. Solar got 26kwh the other day, and another 18.6 today.... harder to justify the mills existence we only use 11kwh/day.

On another subject,  ( your earlier reply ) I dumped a chrysler car slant 6 into a dodge 7 ton truck, but I used the auto transmission as well. It survived another 7 years in that configuration. Over here we use kilowatts for car and truck power... the same things here. 100kw is 100kw The only non-power hp rating I recall was the rac rating in hp for registration purposes.... but that was bore  x stroke x no of pistons I think.



........ oztules

Edit I think we may be thread hijacking here re-reading this waffle.... sorry folks we'll leave it alone i guess.
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