Author Topic: Output voltage adjustment  (Read 16000 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline oztules

  • Forum Advisors
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1177
  • Karma: +105/-8
  • Village idiot
Re: Output voltage adjustment
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2016, 07:43:42 am »
Maybe it's time to build the 002 or 8010 card and replace the pj control... that way you have easy control over the voltage... simple trim pot.
 I will hopefully get clockmans cards soon, and can test them... the 8010 will fit into the pj carcass, but the 002 won't... just too high.

If the cards test out ok, you may be able to badger him for some too :)

..............oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline ClockmanFrance

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: +11/-0
Re: Output voltage adjustment
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2016, 02:02:58 pm »
On there way to you oztules, 2 of each. Post Office tell me that it will take another 5 days.

Power board okay, but now revised a couple of things and I await your feedback before proceeding with a larger batch manufacturing.

OzControl board, ... I missed a Via on a jumper.... track is there so drilled and removed lacquer. Also removed copper around the 4 mounting positions. Now amended. I have also got this board as a double sided now. But the single side will stay for the DIY mask and etch folk.

The New PowerBoard and the OzControl board will/can be a direct replacement for the PJ boards. SSHHH .....opening Pandora's box?...... They are all through hole components, and readily obtainable, with only the 8010 HT1356 chip being a SMD but that is on its own horizontal/flat mounted sub board.

Offline lighthunter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 323
  • Karma: +13/-0
Re: Output voltage adjustment
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2016, 12:05:28 am »
Quote
"Maybe it's time to build the 002 or 8010"

Thats a good idea!. I already have 3 of the 002 boards on hand too! Couldnt I use a 90 degree header connector to keep height down? Agree 8010 alone might even be better.

I am was planning on a 48v inverter soon anyway. A friend insisted on me using his 510AH fork lift battery. (48v) thats over 24kw of energy storage :o

I assume the 002 2110 driver has charge pump for high side fet float?

If I connect 002 board to (4) 600v igbts will it be able to down convert 150-300vdc thru 10kva transformer to 48v?

I do struggle to understand requirements of high side fet drive.

Thanks so much for supportive ideas!
Health Warning: May contain traces of nut!
LH

Offline oztules

  • Forum Advisors
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1177
  • Karma: +105/-8
  • Village idiot
Re: Output voltage adjustment
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2016, 04:24:12 am »
"I assume the 002 2110 driver has charge pump for high side fet float? " yes

If I connect 002 board to (4) 600v igbts will it be able to down convert 150-300vdc thru 10kva transformer to 48v?... yes, it is actually what they are designed for originally from what I can understand.

"I do struggle to understand requirements of high side fet drive."... high current to pull the gate up and down very fast against the capacitive insulated gate... ie the gate is insulated from the drain source channel... the thickness of the insulation and the area of the insulated interface will dictate the capacitance of the junction we need to charge and discharge very fast.

So even though the input impedance is extremely high, it takes a decent current to pull it up past 10v or so and back to zero very fast.... any time spent in the linear part of the curve will mean heat... we want it on or off ........ideally nothing in between.

In essence, exactly the same requirements as the low side driver.. no difference. The charge pump is a simple way to achieve a higher voltage than the B+ of the drain...and stored in a capacitor for fast discharge into the gate.    ie when the fet is turned on, the drain is at the same potential as the source...both at B+.... but the insulated gate needs to be at least 10v or so more than the source ( now B+), or it won't turn/stay on... so a problem for the high side fet that is solved in one of several ways.

An isolated gate driver voltage from a floating supply grounded at the source and driving the gate, a transformer coupled system... achieves the same thing, or the charge pump..... and the diode and cap and the 2110 works way better than I expected.

............oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline dochubert

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 265
  • Karma: +4/-0
  • 11 powerjacks, 9 that run, 3 actually used daily
Re: Output voltage adjustment
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2016, 10:42:54 am »
I guess I missed the explanation of Clockman's control board(s), but if they have adjustable output control, I want one!  Sounds like he plans on selling them? 
Besides, I'm not having any luck unwinding this new transformer. Being small physically, it has tiny wire.   Having to work thru the core makes it nearly impossible.  Now I get why the bigger transformer is a better plan....
We're all going to DIE!  (eventually)

USA = Communist former republic
---  dochubert --

Offline ClockmanFrance

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: +11/-0
Re: Output voltage adjustment
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2016, 02:46:37 am »
Not really selling them, that's not my game. I just wanted a decent Inverter that, 'did what it said on the Tin'.......

When I say manufacture them I mean about 20 or so boards, just gets silly money tied up if I make too many at one time....

However, I will probably give an option with the "Making a 6-15kW OzInverter" 76 page Book I have printed, 150 copies, that as well as the supplement with all the DIY PCB making masks, I could offer another option and include the ready made PCB's with the book.

Postage, colour printing, small batch PCB's does mean that the book will not be cheap cheap.

For instance the first small order for Power Board and the OzControl Board cost me about $43 each pair. There is no money in it as most 'DIY ers' wont spend much.

But on the other hand.... Buy the book and the PCB's.... follow the construction of everything, toroid, circuits, electrics etc, using readily obtained parts... and boy oh boy !! you have an Inverter that is in my opinion better than the commercial Guys,....... but Robust, simple, easily repairable, and best of all real cheap!!!!!!

I await 'oztules' testing on them preliminary boards before I go anywhere.


Offline dochubert

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 265
  • Karma: +4/-0
  • 11 powerjacks, 9 that run, 3 actually used daily
Re: Output voltage adjustment
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2016, 10:39:53 am »
Hi Clockman, and thanks for the reply.
When you are ready, I'm in for the book and the PCB.  Put my name on your list!  This whole topic of making our own power has had me hooked for years now, and what you, Oztules and some others have accomplished with the powerjack as a base is outstanding.  Some of the details and some of the electronics are beyond my range of knowledge, but I get most of it and can build a kit and follow a schematic,  Especially since you guys are always willing to help with advice and direction.  Thanks for some excellent work!

Does your control board allow for output voltage adjustment up to 240vac?  That has been my 'quest' on this thread and while lighthunter's innovative extra transformer fix will likely do the job for me (if I can ever get the transformer correctly unwound without destroying it), a new control board replacement with output voltage adjustment built right in would be wonderful.  Also an adjustable setpoint for high battery voltage alarm/shutdown (My other main issue with powerjack controls)  If it does those 2 things, you are my hero!

Anyway, I for one, appreciate what you and Oztules are doing and eagerly await the finished product
We're all going to DIE!  (eventually)

USA = Communist former republic
---  dochubert --

Offline ClockmanFrance

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: +11/-0
Re: Output voltage adjustment
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2016, 03:05:44 pm »
The 220vac 240vac or whatever output can be adjusted with the 10k trimmer pot.

The 2k trimmer pot is to shut down level for the AC current, using a sense coil on the AC cable coming from the secondary.

The Inverter will back charge to the battery if you are not using that GTI PV power. So the batteries will get raw charging. What I find is as the batteries fill up the 230vac rises, and at about 244vac my GTI switches it self off, I have set to switch off at that voltage. I also have 8kW of dump controllers for my wind turbines, some times they manage the excess GTI back charging voltage.

I think oztules does the same, but with his GTI it reaches the permissible overvoltage Grid pre-set level and shuts down his GTI.

Its a simple, robust Inverter so you will need to configure it for your system.

The trick is at present not to have to much GTI input for your batteries, hence me having a fail safe relay working from the Midnite Classic Controller when it goes to float with my 63kW of batteries.

Here's the latest double sided OzControl5 Board screen print.

Offline dochubert

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 265
  • Karma: +4/-0
  • 11 powerjacks, 9 that run, 3 actually used daily
Re: Output voltage adjustment
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2016, 05:32:08 pm »
That looks like a very clean design!  Nice!
It appears you are intending this board as a direct swap into a 15kw powerjack? (I hope).  Will the same board be used for 48, 24, and 12vdc models or will each version have to be different?  I'm assuming no fan controls either (a good thing I think - independent fan control is better anyway)
Assuming (again) that your J3 and J4 connections correspond to the P3 and P4 output connections on the pj board, I don't see what corresponds to the MaintxL and MaintxN feedback connections from the toroids, or maybe you don't need that?
Sorry for so many questions, you've got me exited to try this out!  No doubt everything is explained in your book
Can't wait to get one
We're all going to DIE!  (eventually)

USA = Communist former republic
---  dochubert --

Offline ClockmanFrance

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 171
  • Karma: +11/-0
Re: Output voltage adjustment
« Reply #54 on: May 13, 2016, 02:39:31 am »
Thanks.

Yes we have independent cooling control with the OzCooling circuit, (breadboard as its a simple PCB) its in the book, It ramps up and down gently following the temp rises and falls and just ticks over if required.

The J3 & J4 are just a feed 230vAC from the Secondary cables connection at the Separate EMC filter input, so the cables are not big on the board. I use 10mm/2, straining our control card is a no no.  I hate mixing AC stuff with DC stuff. These details are in the Supplement.

These New boards were not actually designed for the PJ, but it would fit, infact after purchasing a 10000w PJ, it was cheap, and looking inside, I stripped it for spares as it was not worth the hassel getting the PJ to really work.

For running a domestic home 48v to 230vac is the norm as it saves on huge cable connections etc, plus most commercial DC controllers have 48vdc. So sorry this baby is strictly for my 48vdc system, but I feel sure it could be adapted.

TBH once I looked at the PJ toroids and the space/clearance inside the case, the PJ toroids are woefully inadequate at handling continuous Power as they state. But the PJ 15kW 48vdc Power Board was/is pretty good, sadly PJ stocking and selling these good Boards seems to be very ad hock. So hence us making our own boards as well. We are no longer dependant on anyone..........

I ordered 2 silicone Iron wound cores from the UK core winders. 'Frackers' my hero, wound his own cores, so that's possible also.  Stuck them together to give me 190mm OD x 120mm high with a 90mm centre hole. Wound them with 118 turns 4off/in hand 1.8mm diameter copper wire and 50mm/2 14 turns for the primary. Total finished weight about 28kgs . All in the book including the tech stuff.
This will run 6kW loads no issues and this OzInverter replaced a SMA 6 Sunny Island that would not do the work. Been running beautifully Now for over 5 months.

My place here, Normandy, rural rolling countryside, will be shortly a Community project with Holiday accommodation 3 Gites, (self sufficient Passive House standard cottages), Lecture Theatre, workshops, swimming pool etc. There is just me doing the works, so the last 10 years has been very busy. All this means I need a real 15kW Inverter, so hence me building the BigOzInverter, its toroid core is 230mm OD x 140mm high with a 100mm centre hole. The core on its own weighs about 39kgs.

As these Inverters are working I also like to have replacement parts ready for direct swapping, that's why I want spare boards.
The project turned into a book, as my 3 young boys always want to know how stuff works, at least when I am gone they get a manual. And the book is also part of our philosophy of self empowerment, assisting and passing knowledge to others.

However..... Its all Oztules work really, he helped me when the commercial machines just could not do it..... In my book he's the kind of guy that deserves a Medal, as he just continues to push that boat. And boy! this Planet needs more folk like him!

Whoops,! sorry got the incorrect OD....... my New BigOzInverter toroid core is amended, it is actually 230mm diameter x 140mm high with a 100 mm diameter centre hole. 
 

Offline oztules

  • Forum Advisors
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1177
  • Karma: +105/-8
  • Village idiot
Re: Output voltage adjustment
« Reply #55 on: May 13, 2016, 05:10:20 am »
dochubert,

The board has two tip35c transistors.... with these it will take any voltage up to 96v or so... so it is voltage independent.... they provide the voltage to the chip and drivers... that why  designed it with them, rather than voltage regulators, or buck converters.... not sexy, and not terribly efficient either, but were talking milliamps not amps too. They are universal, and they work fine.

The output is pure switching to the fet gates, so, providing you choose the fets for your current and voltage, and the transformer to suite.... it will run.

It has no high or low cut outs, and thats why it will suite any voltage device you stick it into, 12, 24,36,48,60,54 whatever, it is only the output transformer and the output transistors that care about the voltage....so once you choose them, just add board.

...........oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline David HK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 250
  • Karma: +21/-0
  • No Personal Text Set by User
Re: Output voltage adjustment
« Reply #56 on: May 13, 2016, 06:03:17 am »
Oztules,

If you had a magic wand, what would be your perfect size dimensions for the torroid? Hole diameter, outside diameter, and thickness.

Something for everything, sort of thing.

Just curious.

Dave

Offline oztules

  • Forum Advisors
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1177
  • Karma: +105/-8
  • Village idiot
Re: Output voltage adjustment
« Reply #57 on: May 13, 2016, 06:16:21 am »
gee David, thats easy......big.

I like a decent sized hole... say 100mm across, and I don't like the primary... so I want few turns as possible....
So something outlandish like 100mm hole, 100mm height, and 100mm depth... so it would be 300mm accross with a 100mm hole by 100mmm deep

Cross section would be 10000mmsq or around the 3.6v/turn.... so 66 turns for the secondary in a 4 " hole would be a doddle, and about 7-8 turns for the primary..

Problem is would weigh a ton, and cost a fortune..... but easy to wind and very high power.

So I don't really know what size, as it really depends on your projected power requirements, and duty cycle.

It is pointless winding the above unit, if you run 500 watts most of the time, and only use 10kw for a very limited time....
So providing you have plenty of hole to work with, it is all good.....

The last one I did I pulled a bit out of the middle out to get it up to 100mm, and suffered the voltage loss and added the extra turns, as it was do-able because of the hole size,..... but it was unusable with the original size without a proper winder...

Horses for courses.


.........oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline dochubert

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 265
  • Karma: +4/-0
  • 11 powerjacks, 9 that run, 3 actually used daily
Re: Output voltage adjustment
« Reply #58 on: May 13, 2016, 09:22:27 pm »
Oztules and ClockmanFrance,
You guys continue to amaze and impress me. 
A little more than 2 years ago I bought my first powerjack (24v 8kw) and after using and being greatly disappointed in 2 or 3 other inverters I had tried, loved it.  I loved that powerjack because it would run my fridge and my freezer and all the lights and gadgets in the house all day long (on a sunny day - 22 solar amps charging 4 180ah telecom agm batts).  It didn't cough when the fridge was running and the freezer kicked on.  Even the hi voltage shutdowns and the low ac output voltage level didn't dampen my love for making my own power.  I just decided to try to improve on it.  Not being smart enough to redesign the circuit myself didn't mean somebody out there wasn't smart enough and practical minded enough to be working on it.  So I started looking, and a few weeks later I stumbled onto you guys.  One of the luckiest things that's happened to me in awhile.  Not only have you solved the problems, you've improved on them.  And just when I was thinking progress with the powerjacks was peaking, you've designed and soon to publish a build it yourself "powerjack" minus the problems and with the improvements including output voltage adjustment to bring it up to the 240v I want.

I appreciate all I've learned in several months here.  I've tried to absorb everything I could, and surprising to me,  things that I didn't have a clue about a year ago, now make sense and even things I wouldn't expect I would ever try I've done more than once and even understood what I was doing (mostly).  I have little doubt that I can completely power my future 'house on acreage' with what I've learned in the last year or so, and its because of you and this great forum.  Thanks and please don't stop

Quote
this Planet needs more folk like him! (referring to Oztules)"
True enough, and more like ClockmanFrance, and several others, too.
We're all going to DIE!  (eventually)

USA = Communist former republic
---  dochubert --

Offline sunnypower46

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 33
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Output voltage adjustment
« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2016, 11:56:07 pm »
>dochubert:  If you still want to experiment with lighthunter's transformer voltage adjust concept, you could consider sourcing a pair of small 230/240 toroids with low voltage secondaries wound over the primary.  Connect them back to back, secondary to secondary.  I found some on ebay, but the cores were potted, not open (damn).

Put 240 on one of the primary windings, measure the output on the other toroid primary.  Should be close to 240, also.  Essentially, it's a one to one ratio using two toroids.  Now, just add or subtract turns on one the secondary windings and re-measure the primary output.  Depending on the secondary voltage, a turn or two should have a large effect.  You might even get lucky and find the toroids are slightly mismatched and give you what you want without any turns modification.

I was thinking these would be easier to modify, if necessary.

This takes me back a few years since I last tried this.  I hope Oz doesn't catch me speeding.