Author Topic: OzInverter, 40a AC back charging, 150aDC, Control, Ideas please?.  (Read 4980 times)

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Offline ClockmanFrance

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Blue Sky Thinking.

 Hi All,

Firstly my apologies for my poor writing skills, but here goes…….

As you know I have built and I am running a 6kW to15kW OzInverter, 48vdc to 230vac, 50HZ. This replaces the SMA Sunny Island that I bought which cannot AC couple & DC couple and sends the HZ frequency up to 60HZ.

I have in all honesty thoroughly enjoyed the OzInverter build and the challenge, especially ‘oztules’ great hands on assistance and real life understandable instructions/info.
And yes I am doing another OzInverter,  bigger torroid, 230mm OD X 100mm core hole and at 140mm thick and a 75mm/2 Primary.

Background Info, here.

We have a small community of buildings here in Rural Normandy, France. I am doing, (20 year project) 3 Gites, Passive House standards, (holiday cottages), lecture Theatre, pool 12m x 5m etc. We have 3 boys so if all else fails each could have a home to raise their own families if need be.
We are self sufficient but our RE is the Key.  Friends Course & Holiday folk, in this unspoilt tranquil valley, still require Electricity, all our heating here is underfloor electric heating.

Having a huge Battery bank, or generators, or having to fit all equipment from a particular expensive manufacturer,  is against our philosophy of simplicity, sustainability and cost effectiveness, so we have gone down the route of AC coupling………..
 (AC coupling, we create a 230vac 50HZ Mini Grid, all our buildings are connected in. On that grid is Grid tie Inverters that our using PV on roof installations and  this feeds into the created mini Grid. This way we can directly use the grid tie generation on our created Mini Grid without the power going in and out of the batteries, and hence saving the battery bank)………..

Our Battery bank is 48vdc 1300ah and we still have 5kW of PV on trackers and 3off 3.7m diameter Hugh Piggott design wind turbines, that direct charge the battery bank with DC controllers such as Midnite Classic 200, Tristar MPPT, and Tristar diversion controllers for the wind turbines.

The Issue.

At present I only have 2.75kW of PV on a separate static array that is AC coupled, its winter here so no real problems with back charging the Mini Grid back through the OzInverter, and yes it can back charge up to 8kw, says ‘oztules’, which is neat.
I use the slight voltage rise on the OzInverter, when it has nowhere to put its excess generation and the batteries are full, to bang off the PV SB3000 grid tie Inverter, GTI.  I can alter the voltage settings on the GTI.

Some of my PV installations can be up to 500 meters away from the battery bank, and I did promise Mrs that I will not dig any more trenches, ( I didn’t fit any control cables in the the original trenches, sigh). But in this case I may have to……….

So,  it’s a sunny day and I have 8kW of PV coming into the OzInverter, no power being used, so its back feeding about 140a DC at 60volts of raw power back into the batteries. Gulp! Great if the batteries want a Bulk Charge, but what about a float charge?

Basically, I want a Backcharging battery charging regime.

Do I……..

Set the GTI’s to bang off sequentially on the voltage rise?, but its still 60vdc coming into the batteries.  Remember that a holiday person could put on an electric kettle and uses a hair drier so the GTI needs to come alive reasonably quickly to take over from the batteries/OzInverter.

No back charging ? or Just Divert/dump excess GTI generation into the pool and Allow the DC charging sources to finish/float the battery?

Use my Midnite classic Aux relay settable control to somehow control the AC backfeeding.?

Use a  Zero Export Device, ZED, (Australia seem to be doing these) that allows the Grid to be there but stops backfeeding of GTI’s.  But not sure how this works in practice.

Use a radio frequency, fail safe wired, that can switch off a Isolation relay of each GTI that follows the Midnite classic charging parameters. Need some sort of controller and hard wiring.

Any other Suggestions ?

Here is my RE layout.......

Offline ClockmanFrance

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Re: OzInverter, 40a AC back charging, 150aDC, Control, Ideas please?.
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2015, 04:41:37 am »
whoops

Offline frackers

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Re: OzInverter, 40a AC back charging, 150aDC, Control, Ideas please?.
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2015, 06:19:35 am »
For communication I've had a lot of success with the cheap Nordic Semi NRF24L01+ modules that have the PA and LNA on them like these - change out of US$6 for a pair of them
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2PCS-NRF24L01-PA-LNA-SMA-Antenna-Wireless-Transceiver-communication-module-2-4G/1859126831.html and a couple of Arduino. I've tested them at 300m through the house and a lot of shrubs and a line of pine tree in a shelter belt!

Fail safe it such that the GTIs turn off if the link fails (the link can be set up so that all data gets acknowledged by the module itself so it reports if the far end doesn't receive it) and the fact that a central 'master' can accept data from up to 5 'slaves'.

I'm using them for the link from the tunnel house temperature control back to the house for monitoring and override control and I'll be using them for remote solar powered soil moisture and temperature sensors in my walnut orchard. If your terrain is difficult you can always improve the 2.4GHz link with a biquad antenna like this http://martybugs.net/wireless/biquad/.
Robin Down Under (or are you Up Over!)

Offline ClockmanFrance

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Re: OzInverter, 40a AC back charging, 150aDC, Control, Ideas please?.
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2015, 03:02:15 am »
Hi 'frackers',

Those modules you suggest look very interesting.

The problem for me is understanding how I can incorporate them, connecting up and the compatibility with the Aurdino, and writing code that would give each module a sequential shut down for the GTI's.

Ie, I need my hand holding when I am walking through these kind of electronics, and writing code is definitely not one of my strongest areas, I managed the test blinking light............

As regards range, my Powerstation/shed where my batteries live is in line of site of each of the PV GTI installations.

I did look at these.....   http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261089720081?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT   as it saves me allot of assembly time, and with the addition of some fail safe relays, price is a bit steep, and I have no idea if they actually work okay.




Offline frackers

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Re: OzInverter, 40a AC back charging, 150aDC, Control, Ideas please?.
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2015, 06:10:04 am »

I have in all honesty thoroughly enjoyed the OzInverter build and the challenge, especially ‘oztules’ great hands on assistance and real life understandable instructions/info.
And yes I am doing another OzInverter,  bigger torroid, 230mm OD X 100mm core hole and at 140mm thick and a 75mm/2 Primary.


I've been wondering if there is some optimum ratio of height, inside and outside diameters as I have the option of making my 90mm inside, 205mm outer diameter core either 100 or 125mm thick by using either 4 or 5 sections to build it. I did find this
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19720015546.pdf
but when an equation runs over more than 1 line my brain seizes up!!

It appears to say that the efficiency of a toroid does not relate to the fill factor, but since height doesn't really affect fill factor (mostly determined by the inner diameter) I'm concerned that the extra height will only add resistance to the windings and hence increase heat generation. Having said that the larger core will be able to dissipate more power (or at least absorb it easier) so I'm just not sure!!
I also found some useful info on http://how-to.wikia.com/wiki/How_to_build_a_transformer_or_inductor

Progress has been very slow as spring is very busy in the walnut orchard with mowing, frost protection and irrigation and everything in the garden has needed a lot of attention as well. All the tunnel houses and veg plots are now dug and planted and I've 3 weeks off for Christmas so I hope to catch up a bit :) Looking on the bright side I at least now have a 1kg roll of mylar tape (5thou thick and 19mm wide which looks about right!) and I've only one (or maybe 2) more cores to make.

I'm planning to use a kids mountain bike wheel rim as the winding shuttle - cut it to get it through the core and then gaffer tape it shut and wind the full length of mylar or wire onto it before transferring it to the core. Does that sound doable?

Wish me luck!!

Robin Down Under (or are you Up Over!)

Offline ClockmanFrance

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Re: OzInverter, 40a AC back charging, 150aDC, Control, Ideas please?.
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2015, 02:04:33 pm »
Yes I remember your endeavours, completely rewinding the core. flippin hero you are.........

I did think of winding mine as I have a suitably largish lathe, but the price of my UK supplier ready formed cores seemed reasonable compared to my time and efforts.

Yes the core seems difficult to get ones head around if you use the standard commercial/manufacturers point of view. As I have said its highly unlikely that a commercial winding machine can get down a 90mm dia hole when the core is 120mm high/thick.

I used 2off 60mm high cores giving me 120mm total height, this was okay but as ozutules pointed out I still was just lacking enough core to get 2v per Primary 50mm/2 wire I did 14 turns but 15 would have been spot on.

Regards the centre hole, 90mm dia hole was just a tad small, to get my 4off (in hand) 1.8mm dia secondary's 118 turns and 14 turns 50mm/2 Primary. Both the secondary and the primary ended up bunching  a few turns, but still does not effect the toroid performance.

Also my cores after 30 minutes or so at 4kw start to get warm, so a bigger core in mass, would help cooling dissipation.

Cooling is very important, ........ so my next cores at 140mm high, 100mm centre hole and OD of 230mm should by my reckoning get my 2v for 14 turns and help take those bursts of kW use without getting to warm and the fans coming on all the time.

As I mentioned in my post I may have to draw many kW's for a few minutes so this bigger one will just gently cruise, I hope?

I think oztules will comment about copper losses, but I was under the impression that they were not really an issue on mine.

Mylar tape,  going on my last toroid I need about 600m at 18mm or 19mm wide, and non adhesive, seems to be rare as rocking horse poo in Europe and I now have to get mine from the US. Any Alibaba contacts?

Would you believe it, its 14 degrees C here, supposed to be mid winter and the grass is still growing, so just done a cut around the house in December!

Yes we have walnuts and we have trays laid out in the conservatory for drying out after the messy husks are away.

I trust you will post your endeavours?

I see from other OzToroid makers that the workbench and the cut out top concept seems to be well in use........

Have a nice Christmas break..........

   

Offline frackers

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Re: OzInverter, 40a AC back charging, 150aDC, Control, Ideas please?.
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2015, 12:48:24 am »
Mylar tape,  going on my last toroid I need about 600m at 18mm or 19mm wide, and non adhesive, seems to be rare as rocking horse poo in Europe and I now have to get mine from the US. Any Alibaba contacts?
I got mine from a local winders- turns out they are bigger than I thought as they have several 1000 sqm of factory space across 3-4 buildings. Not sure if I was charged the going rate but at NZ$25 for a roll I'm not complaining!
As a matter of interest (not having disassembled a core), how many layers between winding layers? Like you I'll be using 1.8mm secondary and 50sqmm primary (if they have any at the scrap yard) or 30sqmm 2 in hand.
Quote
Would you believe it, its 14 degrees C here, supposed to be mid winter and the grass is still growing, so just done a cut around the house in December!
We're expecting 32C tomorrow with pockets up to 35C. Glad I'm not in Aus - Melbourne is well into the 40's with grass fires.
Quote
Have a nice Christmas break..........
Thank you - I hope you and yours do as well.
Robin Down Under (or are you Up Over!)

Offline ClockmanFrance

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Re: OzInverter, 40a AC back charging, 150aDC, Control, Ideas please?.
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2015, 03:47:22 am »
Mylar tape, or Molinex/Nomex ? my observations.

The trick is keeping it tight, and wrapping it right, let it go or drop the bobbin and a birds nest ensues.....

I obtained 200m 18mm wide and 0.085mm thick from the supplier of my toroid bare cores, but sadly it was not enough but was just correct for thickness.

The PowerJack toroid I dismantled had super thin stuff, 0.065mm, that very easily broke, but I managed to salvage most in small runs, I just used the adhesive backed Mylar tape to do the joins.

The Mylar tape I get from the USA...... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181696004499?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT ..... is 0.125mm thick, but i found that it is just to thick.
 Especially when its not flexible enough to allow the next winding of the secondary to fit down in the gap of the previous winding, especially on the internal centre hole windings. But it does come oval shape and goes down a 62mm dia hole okay without having to unwind..........

I half lap the Mylar tape on its self on the exterior of the toroid, and I do 2off complete wraps as a minimum, with the super thin breaking stuff I did 3off wraps, Waste not.

Don't forget the epoxy resin on each secondary winding before you cover it with Mylar tape. I like the thin viscosity stuff that I mix and lightly paint on.
 I have some thin Molinex sheet that I put under the whole toroid to collect any excess resin.
 The following evening turn the toroid over, peel off the Molinex sheet, Mylar tape on the hardened epoxy resin coated winding, and then next copper wire winding goes on.

As I said I could do with another Mylar supplier source at about 0.085mm thick and 18mm wide.




Offline Phred

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Re: OzInverter, 40a AC back charging, 150aDC, Control, Ideas please?.
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2015, 07:11:09 am »
I did promise Mrs that I will not dig any more trenches
Noticed that ur AC coupled inverters are located @ the house. To control them is simple train a micro that senses the battery  over volts then control a relay on the ac output to interrupt the coupling for a second or 2. This will force the inverter to island and wait for the unit to come on line again. If u have a number of smallish inverters AC coupled then the solar/wind  can be more closely tuned to the usage demand

Offline ClockmanFrance

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Re: OzInverter, 40a AC back charging, 150aDC, Control, Ideas please?.
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2015, 12:02:55 pm »
Hi Phred, how's yours coming along.

I note your comment about, "electronics & programming is no problem."

I need my hand holding a bit with electronics and especially programming.

Perhaps you might like to sort out a Aurdino with a sequential shut down, I say very politely. It would operate relays and radio signals to switch off GTI's on my isolated roof PV installations so they do not back feed 230vac through my OzInverter and put 60vdc into the 1300ah c10 batteries.

The Aurdino can follow my Midnite Classic 200 charging regime through the Classic Aux relays and settings, batteries go to float, Aurdino does it stuff.   

"Noticed that ur AC coupled inverters are located @ the house. To control them is simple train a micro that senses the battery  over volts then control a relay on the ac output to interrupt the coupling for a second or 2"
The AC coupled GTI's are on other buildings that can be 500m to 100m away from the batteries, just the main AC cable installed in the trenches to each. Hence, "Thou shalt not dig any more trenches".....

"This will force the inverter to island and wait for the unit to come on line again".
Yes agreed, but I have also set the GTI's to shut down on grid voltage slight increase, which the Inverter does when the AC is coming in and the batteries are full and the AC power is not being used on the created Mini Grid.

My issue is staggering the GTI's so the batteries get a bulk charge 60v backfed from the Inverter AC side GTI's. 200 amps at DC going into my batteries is a bit scary, so hence using the Midnite Classic controlers Aux relay settings. Classic goes to float, signal sent by radio to each GTI installation, fail safe relay interrupts AC connection to GTI.

"If u have a number of smallish inverters AC coupled then the solar/wind  can be more closely tuned to the usage demand"
Yes that's the idea. Regards wind, I am sticking to the DC batteries clamping/controlling them, excess above the controllers set chagrining regime is dumped to 8 kW of air heaters.
So I do not want the AC GTI's pushing through the Ozinverter and into the batteries where the dump controllers dump to air heaters, a vicious circle, hence using the Midnite Classic as master to shut off and switch on the AC GTI's.

"To control them is simple train a micro that senses the battery  over volts"

Oh dear that word "simple train a micro" frightening........

The GTI's are all smallish SMA SB's, cheap as chips, 2500 to 3800, some new but old stock or they are second hand and were superseded by larger upgrades, no market for used stuff except folk like me.  I have SMA unlock codes so I can alter each to suit with my laptop and bluetooth.  Took me days to get the hang of getting in and wandering around looking at all the myriad of changeable parameters......





 

Offline oztules

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Re: OzInverter, 40a AC back charging, 150aDC, Control, Ideas please?.
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2015, 01:23:08 am »
Frackers.., min side length.. stack size...

Use as big a hole as you can afford ( 100mm is nice).
Your shape for the least copper for your purposes is to have the height the same as your width ( max volume for the least perimeter for quad shapes).

Sadly, bigger hole means more steel used for the same cross section.... but for you ... should not pose a problem with cheap cores.

...........oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia