Author Topic: Building a 6kw pure sine wave inverter using power jack boards part2 the guts..  (Read 32364 times)

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Offline RFburns

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yes that is a nice simple drive set up! thanks for posting that . Stu
Get With It ,Get Over It , Get On With It ...Or Leave

Cheap and reliable wont be fast.
Cheap and fast wont be reliable.
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Offline ClockmanFrance

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Oztules,  This driver board, EGS002 EG8010 + IR2110,  was mentioned in your long thread....... and was running a 3kW Inverter,   .... http://www.lz2gl.com/power-inverter-3kw/

And you commented....... Sept 2015.....

"Not sure of their thinking , but they made it work. Would like to have seen a scope of the driver signal on the cro. ( at the gate source resistor). It  looks a bit over the top for the drivers, and I'm not sure if it is warranted..... or even better than direct drive from the drivers...... I seem to use loads more copper... wondering at the heat in those windings at power for too long.

It is an interesting approach. If the switching is vastly improved ( and it was good just with single bipolar totems), then it may make up for their high Rds on. Theirs is 10 times higher than the 4110's... so 10 times the losses, and less of them... more losses.... at least they have half the input capacitance.

So I think they have done brilliantly... but thinking the Chinese PJ can show them a few things too.

 If I was to test this way, I would use a pj power board driven direct..with feedback.......... and then test a pair of isolated power supplies and totems or opto's for the high side and see if there is any advantage in not using the boards output as is.

There are a few (EG8010)  on my bench from a few years ago... have not touched them as yet..... struggling to see why at the present..... as I have too many inverters laying around from experiments so far. ... may have to try it out of curiosity one day..... but not like them.

But the PJ boards are pricing themselves much higher now .... 45 dollar boards are now near 100, and power cards are expensive too now.... but gee they are still good value..... used to be $179 for complete board set........ sigh....  ..........oztules"


Any further info/comments on this possible route into the future.

4689-0

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-AC-Pure-Sine-Wave-Inverter-Driver-Board-EGS002-EG8010-IR2110-Driver-Module-/141799468112?hash=item2103e82c50

Offline oztules

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It has the feel of something happening in the not too distant future..... may have to rope Stu into this for support  yet.

Does not seem too difficult to achieve the same thing... but still the costs involved with the main boards... big bit of glass, and 6 big caps and 24 fets.. so could probably run up to $100 by the time it is done... then the all important transformer.... which you have solved for all time... you can buy off the shelf the torroids themselves of what ever size you choose... thats damn handy too.... the chip costs a dollar or so, and yet is the most important ingredient.


.................oztules


Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline RFburns

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Oztules I will be happy to support with whatever I can (and have ordered a couple of these boards as mentioned else where), on the transformer front this company was the company that made the Aerosharp transformers http://eaglerise-electric.com/product-2-1-2-toroidal-inductor-en/146947 I have not contacted them but for anyone wanting a transformer this maybe worth a look (if you cant find ex grid ties). Keep in mind freight will be expensive and I dont know if they supply in single units; but you will be able to order it wound with what you want. Other wise Ebay has core material http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Toroidal-laminated-core-for-AC-power-transformer-3000VA-wind-your-own-/171264408352?hash=item27e0277b20:m:mbTvFs9YPZTl4k-SAdUEbUg .Stu
Get With It ,Get Over It , Get On With It ...Or Leave

Cheap and reliable wont be fast.
Cheap and fast wont be reliable.
Reliable and fast wont be cheap.

Offline oztules

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Good find on the core material for folks in the USA, clockman found cores for europe, and inspires and aero sharps for aust.

Ordered a few boards of eg8010 to play with, and looking at different technologies for the boards.

No idea how I will proceed from here or when, but am currently unwinding a few aero 3kw transformers to their cores.... hard work indeed... need a tranny when i build it.


............oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline ClockmanFrance

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Torroid cores in Europe.

I got mine from this UK company, and yes they send to Europe. 

http://www.airlinktransformers.com/toroidal_cores/ros217/

4693-0

The 230mm Outside dia, 100mm hole size and 70mm thick seems to be their biggest, and they have them in stock. 17.3kg each.......... :)





So I will put 2 of these together and enjoy my winter time, £170 GBP.

 I have the 1.8mm dia copper for 4off 120 turns.
 
Some 18mm/ 3/4 inch wide mylar film, about 600 meters required, (yes I added up what i used, sad).

 I have Epoxy resin so all I need is 8 meters of 75mm/2 primary cable for my 14 turns, and yippee I have a 10kW jobby.

Although my Mrs and my boys are now looking at me sideways when I mention the 'OzInverter', so might have to sneak away to my workshop/studio and snuggle up, keep sshhh, haha.

Offline RFburns

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Nice work Clockman, I have seen some Russian core material on the bay from time to time to -dont know what the quality is like ;the ebay link I put up has a handy calculator for approximate wire length required to. Stu
Get With It ,Get Over It , Get On With It ...Or Leave

Cheap and reliable wont be fast.
Cheap and fast wont be reliable.
Reliable and fast wont be cheap.

Offline MarNet

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Hi
i seen this topic and is really interesting
is a good idea to use the PJ power board for a inverter. do you use the control board as well?
i had a look at the toroidal core 230x100x70,  this is 45.5cm/2
will be enough for a 5kw transformer?
i have seen that clockman have used the toroidal core 190x90x60mm what is 30cm/2 , so 2 of them are 60cm/2.
i have a dilema, there is 114 turns for 230v right? and there is 1.8mm wire for 10A .... in a 60cm/2 toroid core for 230v, there is 2.0175 turns/volt. and  2.0175 * 14turns = 28.2V ....
how exactly do you calculate the winding?
if i`ll buy a toroidal core 230x100x70 and i want to make the transformer 24v to 230 or maybe 2x24 (probabbly in the future i`ll use 48v) how many turns do i need?
clockman did you noticed the 50cm/2 toroid core : http://www.airlinktransformers.com/toroidal_cores/ros211/
10kg weight? only? that will be ok for a 5kw inverter?
thank you
Happy New Year everyone

Offline ClockmanFrance

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Hi MarNet.

"230x100x70,  this is 45.5cm/2
will be enough for a 5kw transformer?"

I found that the AirLink toroid cares 190 x 90 x 60, 2off doubled up, ran 4.5kW very satisfactory for a good period of time, but warmed up and needed cooling well. This OzInverter works well here and does the job.
So at 60cm/2 core, 100mm x 120mm section, I found that the core should have given with 14 turns primary about 30v, what we were aiming for.  However it turned out 28.2v, which is okay and oztules commented about better headroom for the toroid on saturation. I think?

So my No 2, 8kW OzInverter, is having the 230 x 100 x 70, 2off stacked cores, giving me a good rectangular block of core so simplifying copper use and loss, but giving me a 90cm/2 of core, 130mm x 140mm section.
It also gives me that 100mm dia hole in the middle that gets my copper secondary and 14 turns of primary to sit in there neat and tidy, although I may go up to 75mm/2 thick for the primary.

"how exactly do you calculate the winding?"

 'Frackers' has been studying the data on toroids, says his "head hurts", but oztules has the real working knowledge with his creations.

 "the 50cm/2 toroid core" ...... 220.140.125mm, 80mm x 125mm section, "10kg weight? only? that will be ok for a 5kw inverter?"
Speaking with my limited experience of cores and the PJ toroids, I doubt if one toroid these dimensions would get 5kW without some serious cooling. Double cores might be good but you are using more copper as the centre hole is a big diameter. But also with this size the core section is not optimal.

Any way I am sure Oztules will comment further.

Pic shows my 2 off stacked/joined 190mm x 90mm x 60mm cores, giving me the 120mm height and 100mm x 120mm section. My observations make me understand that its all about optimizing the core Mass effeciently.

Offline MarNet

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Hi Clockman,
i have seen your toroidal core is nice. anyway how much was the postage fee from UK ?
is 60cm/2
the 220x140x125 is 50cm/2
the 230x100x70 is 45.5cm/2
won`t be enough for 5kw transformer?

Offline ClockmanFrance

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Delivery to France, Europe, EEC.  for 2off cores 190mm x 90mm x 60mm, £92 plus VAT.   Airlink wound them to that size as a special within 7 days, weight was 20kgs, delivery price was £32 plus VAT.

Its the doubling up the cores that gives the best results for the OzInverter.

Offline dalek

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Just something to think on.  Power companies put their transformers in mineral oil.  It helps insulate the windings but mostly it helps move the heat out.  For those that really heat up, a pump with a small radiator could be used, I guess. 

Just something that hit me when I read the post about heat.  Heat may not be the only problem tho. 

Offline MarNet

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i can`t wait until monday
i`ll call this company to see if the toroidal core 220x140x125mm is only 10.81 kg and why. should be around 20kg.
if is just a mistake, i`ll buy that
clockman your transformer is 28 to 230 vac correct?
but the 15kw power board is 48vdc ... how did you managed that?
one more thing, wat type of mofsets are in the 15k board and how many of them?
i`m asking that because for the 15k inverters they said that the inverter can deliver 60kw for a short time, 10 seconds or so
my system is 24v system and i`m thinking about the 24v 8kw board ... or maybe 6kw board.
will work without control board?
thank you

Offline ClockmanFrance

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As I Understand it, oztules will probably correct me here, PowerJack designed their boards to run at an 8 to 1 ratio. 230 /8 = 28.75. This was confirmed when I took a 48v PowerJack toroid apart, so we want a 8 to 1.
 
48vdc is what we design this particular OzInverter for, but remember we might go down to 47v and up as high as 61v depending on the batteries state of charge, we therefore have a bit of headroom.

I Understand if you use a 24v supply, then you need some serious amounts of Primary thickness.

The PJ control board is matched to the PJ power board, YES you do require the Control board, it has the 50HZ oscillator and other stuff on it.

Oztules has done some fair testing on the PJ FET's and they do the job, ......... "Even reject 4110 from China for 50cents a piece have better than .009R as a general observation, and thats as good as it gets for the 140Ns10, more typically .012R.
You can get 4110 in 247 package too f you want to pay a lot more. I have tested these at less than .003R... but you pay as fortune for them too... and no gain that I can see practically.
If the board is running fine, the 4110 will peak past 20000w... and still survive happily, so not much to improve really. If there is a driver glitch, then nothing will save them "
 

Offline MarNet

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4110 power dissipation is max 370w
The140Ns10 power dissipation is maximum 450w :)
PJ LF8000w is advertised to have a maximum peak of 24kw...
This is the reason why i asked what type of transistors are on the board and how many of them.
I have burned 2 24v invertets with a 600w water pump. Now i bought a 2500w with 5000w peak for the same pump...
I don't want anymore headache,  that's why i want to build this inverter.
Any way you can check the 15kw main board output power?
I just want to know if is 28v...

http://m.ebay.ie/itm/141234579284 that will be good for core wrapping?  I mean to seal the bobine?
Sorry for that many questions but i want to build one :)