Author Topic: Power Jack LF 5000W Inverter Board Swap  (Read 4822 times)

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Offline dochubert

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Re: Power Jack LF 5000W Inverter Board Swap
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2016, 12:44:32 PM »
Hi Clockman,
Thanks a lot for your explanation.  How the gti is controlled has been bothering me for awhile.  From Oz' threads I thought he was using a home built control system to shut down the gti when the batteries were full, and wondered how I was going to do the same thing, not being as talented at designing circuits.  If the gti high voltage shutdown kicks it offline before the batts voltage get too high, much simpler, especially if that shutdown is adjustable.  My Xantrex gti waits 5 minutes before reconnecting, which seems a long time but may be ok.  I have to go back and read the specs on it.  Don't know what its hi v setpoint is either (it was never important before)

 I also wondered about using direct dc charging in addition to the gti backfeed, which I was considering for reliability.  It seemed to make sense to do it that way.  Glad to hear that's working well for your system. 
Thanks again

Lighthunter,
Thanks again for your explanation.
I think I've got my head around your mod, maybe just barely, but I think I've got it.  A novel and innovative approach, to say the least.
I'm pretty good at taking somebody else's design and tweaking it to fit my needs, but designing from go... well, you have my admiration and respect, as well as my best wishes in your success.  I look forward to your updates and maybe some pics of your setup?
I was, and I guess still am considering the first thing you tried with increasing the resistor stack/ladder resistance on the control card.  I have an idea or two on that I may experiment with soon.  Seems like it should work for adjusting output voltage, unless it pushes the control circuit out of operating range or something
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Offline lighthunter

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Re: Power Jack LF 5000W Inverter Board Swap
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2016, 07:52:56 PM »
Hi guys! Thanks for all the great thoughts and ideas! :)

Dochubert, I have a tendency to word things with too many xtras. Basically the pj voltage mod is removing one of the two control board voltage connections (i chose maintx N) and provide that board connection with a substitute voltage to trick the regulator.

To explain how ... remove black wires from maintx N and p4 and bolt them all together above board and insulate, then connect a new transformer primary to the PJ output and connect the secondary leads to maintx L and maintx N. Done...     the added necessary info might be ... choose a transformer that runs with 5 watts or less, choose a turns ratio that yields the new voltage you want and the old voltage the pj used to regulate at. I dont know if polarity of lead wires matters, i kept em original  just in case. 

Depending on your needs for increasing voltage, the other mod might do just fine, i wasnt happy with it for two reasons,   It made the regulation soft and it drifted. it was a bit unpredictable too. Maybe only +- 5 volts of error but i had seen mine run with rock solid regulation under all loads and i wanted that back, also i needed 240 to be regulated while pj was watching the 110v , 5 volts of error on the 110 side turned into 10 volts off target on the 240 side and backfeeding it got even worse. I had other motives too like a picky gti that i cant adjust.


Clockman, great to hear your experience with gti control, I like that method!! so your using the pj voltage increase on full battery to communicate to each gti when to stop. Thats great, dont they just restart every 5 minutes? Well then i suppose you can change that timer too. Im jealous, mine is a brick, well not quite, it does its job well but i cant change anything, its locked down, emerson 3.5kw with dow powerhouse name on it, ebay cheapie $400. Inverters like that go for 1000 usd here.     
When the wind gen goes up, i may have to invest in another, the gen is in the garage now just needs to be erected, one a friend & i built years ago, its got 15ga 240v 3phase wdg with qty32, 58lb magnets. We could light a 500w halogen bright with a half turn. 
Dochubert, i am as of now using an idec programmable relay (is a small plc) to monitor battery voltage and switch loads from util mains to pj/gti as power is available. Works pretty well though it didnt until i learned to synchronize the phases between the two before transfer. When switching happens the voltage between the 3 contact points are less than 10v. No one even notices switches. Programming those relays is easy even for first time.

I will keep u posted, im anxious to see if lithium iron batteries are as good as they say.
heres a screenshot of the mains synchronizer in case anyone is interested.

Cheers Lighthunter
LH

Offline lighthunter

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Re: Power Jack LF 5000W Inverter Board Swap
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2016, 08:17:16 PM »
The component on the far right is a 24v relay coil 8ma dropout current., The relay drops out to its nc contact whenever voltage between two sources is less than 10 v, this one is good up to 240v.(the resistor in series with relay coil was just for simulator accuracy, its not part of the circuit.

Cheers, Lighthunter
LH

Offline ClockmanFrance

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Re: Power Jack LF 5000W Inverter Board Swap
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2016, 03:20:47 AM »
Hi Guys,

I think in the future AC coupling using Grid Tied Inverters, GTI, is a cost effective way forward, as it reduces the need for a huge battery bank, and the GTI's I get are better costing than ordinary MPPT DC controllers.

Someone on this forum will probably want to start a AC coupling thread at sometime. I would chip in.

I chose SMA  GTI's knowing that they could be altered for AC coupling for my Inverter. I also bought a very expensive SMA Sunny Island 6 Inverter, but boy oh boy what a mistake that was.
 You have to buy SMA gear or interfaces to get the SI6 to talk to all the Battery charging controllers, if not the SI6 sends the 50HZ to 60HZ and my domestic electrical appliances failed and were damaged, and my batteries were overcharged. No mention of any of that in the SMA SI6 tech specs.

EEC trading standards and the German Trading standards have opened cases and at last, after a year of SMA hoping I would go away, the SI6 has gone back to Germany, and I am now awaiting my money back into my bank account.

My Hero 'oztules' came to my rescue, and I built the 6kW OzInverter, and it does everything I want. I am also building a BigOzInverter as a spare for my small community here in France.   

Photo, sorry laptop pic, shows the SB3000 GTI parameters that can be altered, here is the 'Island Mode' before I alter anything.

Offline ClockmanFrance

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Re: Power Jack LF 5000W Inverter Board Swap
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2016, 03:41:24 AM »
dochubert..

Re...... GTI's shutdown.

As well as altering the GTI's internal voltage trip, I also have a fail safe system which is triggered from my superior charging rate Midnite Classic DC charge controller. So when the batteries are full the Midnite operates a aux relay when it goes to float and the GTI's AC connection is relay fail safe opened and it is shut down from my Mini Grid.

Although at present the GTI's shut down as asked to do with out the fail safe circuit needing to step in.

I believe Oz's circuit he built was for the GTI to be disconnected when the battery charging was complete, but he did say the GTI just shuts it self off when the Inverter AC voltage rises, and it seems that he is not using the circuit he built.

AC coupling with the PJ boards is still in its infancy so there is lots to consider.

Me, I just like things simple, robust and cost effective.

Offline dochubert

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Re: Power Jack LF 5000W Inverter Board Swap
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2016, 11:11:55 PM »
Lighthunter,
Thanks for the clarification and info. I see why you did it that way now.  Makes sense.  It just seemed at first to be unnecessarily complicated, but I get the advantages for your system now.  I may still give the other method a try... what the heck
Also looking forward to hearing about your experience with the lfp batteries.  Rossw's discussion of them has me aiming in that direction when the time comes to buy more batteries.

Clockman,
Thanks for all the great info on your gtis and insight.  Between you, Lighthunter, and of course Oztules, you guys will have all the bugs worked out and the whole operation boiled down to a step by step process by the time I get moved and ready to build my full system. 

Since we suspect those guys at Powerjack read this site, they will probably soon be offering a paired gti/powerjack unit already coupled and ready to use, based on all your research and trial/error.  You guys should get royalties, or at least credit....




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Offline lighthunter

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Re: Power Jack LF 5000W Inverter Board Swap
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2016, 08:04:10 PM »
Hello!  The batteries came! I swapped them in last night and ran them today. To die for!! The performance isnt even on the same page with lead acid.

I know this is a baby system and very small battery ::)  Im not off grid as some of you guys are. Its my fun time hobby. So far I have $3600 usd invested. ~$1800 in 2.25kw panels ;$400 3.5kw gti; $400 PJ, and now $500 24v 40AH LiFePO4 batteries another $500 in misc wire & controls.

The batteries i swapped out were 150AH FLA. The LA were actually doing ok compared to new but I just didnt like how much the voltage changed between 40A charge to 40A discharge which invited a 5 volt swing between 24.5v and 29.5v.

Not these guys, the internal resistance is low low low, I saw them go from 30amp charge to 30amp discharge today with only 1.4v of change. I dont have my coulomb counter done yet but seemed like for their size they are outperforming the fla by a factor of ten, easily running 700w for 10 minutes with very little voltage change. Anyway, my two cents? I think they are great, $500 was a lot to pay for 40AH but im guessing i would have had to spend $1000 in AGMs to get this voltage stability. Specs say these can charge/discharge at 3C which in this case is120A. Im trying to keep current under 1C. Battery management? I just set min 25.44v and max 28.0v for now. I will hook up cell-log8S tomorrow.

Sorry for boring u guys, It just took me months to pull the trigger and im glad now, controller doesnt have to switch loads near as much now.

Clockman, i might have missed something regarding the toroid mod you did in your pj. I understand the basics about voltage and current matching with windings but could. You explain the benefit? Maybe you were able to increase kw capacity of xfmr that way but dont you need more core too?

Just thoughts, Thanks guys!
Lighthunter
LH

Offline rossw

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Re: Power Jack LF 5000W Inverter Board Swap
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2016, 02:41:49 AM »
To die for!! The performance isnt even on the same page with lead acid.

Isn't it just?!

Quote
Not these guys, the internal resistance is low low low, I saw them go from 30amp charge to 30amp discharge today with only 1.4v of change. I dont have my coulomb counter done yet but seemed like for their size they are outperforming the fla by a factor of ten

That's about what I found too. My 1000AH AGM were "doing the job", but honestly, 300AH of LFP does the job way better.

Quote
I think they are great, $500 was a lot to pay for 40AH

About $1USD/AH (per cell) seems to be about the going rate, even for larger purchases. I'm guessing you're talking about a 12V  (well, 12.8V) system. That puts you at about $3/AH/cell, which for a modest bank is probably not stupidly off the money.

Quote
im guessing i would have had to spend $1000 in AGMs to get this voltage stability.

My AGMs in a 48V (nominal) system, where I had 48 x 500AH/2V cells (and 72 cells at one stage), still couldn't hold a candel to the LFPs.

Quote
Sorry for boring u guys, It just took me months to pull the trigger and im glad now

If you're like me, I have only two regrets.
1. Not doing it earlier.
2. Not doubling the capacity at the outset.


Offline ClockmanFrance

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Re: Power Jack LF 5000W Inverter Board Swap
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2016, 06:08:43 AM »
"Clockman, i might have missed something regarding the toroid mod you did in your pj. I understand the basics about voltage and current matching with windings but could. You explain the benefit? Maybe you were able to increase kw capacity of xfmr that way but dont you need more core too?"

I purchased a PJ 10000w 48vdc, 220vac , 50HZ Inverter. The PJ torroids are woefully inadequate for pulling much power, they get hot, hot, hot, far to quickly, and therefore life expectancy on them is going to be short.
So I stripped for spares, especially the Boards as the whole Inverter was not far off the price of me importing just PJ 15kW boards, the 10kw just requires 2 more capacitors and they are 15kW boards, same layout, size etc.

The torroid cores themselves are usable, that's if you strip all three of them, (I got 3off in my 10kW PJ) and stack them together and wind you own windings, then I think a reasonable toroid could be achieved.

See 'Oztules' .....  http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1044.0.html?PHPSESSID=h7jd5l4edljl6k4ls18pgfj4i1.

And this for working out the Tech stuff on the torroids we make.... ....  http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1117.0.html?PHPSESSID=h7jd5l4edljl6k4ls18pgfj4i1

Reasons for this design of Toroid.   
   Why don’t we just buy a toroid transformer ready made?    Ahh, that’s where this toroid design wins hands down.
1.  We double, treble, quadruple, stack the cores. Keeps the copper loss down, but increases the core mass so its cooler and can handle more. But, now’s here the sting, the core centre is now too small, because of its double stacked height, for a normal commercial toroid manufacturing winding machine to get in. So this design has to be hand wound.
2.  After each secondary winding, we Epoxy the winding before putting the next layer of Mylar insulating tape on. Its not to heavy coating, but this stops the windings from vibrating, rubbing together and eventually failing, it also helps with cooling.
3. As this design is hand wound, the Primary small number of turns can be the full size big diameter cable. This also helps significantly with keeping the toroid cool as this winding is open, and air flow can easily circulate around and through the toroid.
 

Offline lighthunter

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Re: Power Jack LF 5000W Inverter Board Swap
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2016, 10:00:09 PM »
Hi guys! The new batteries are just so wonderful! The Grid tie rarely if ever shuts off anymore. Load shuffeling between grid mains and inverters works flawlessly now that it doesnt have to switch every time a cloud comes over.

Thanks for thoughts RossW,  :)  You are very right about the cost... in the long run, its cheaper. I did mention it to one of my co-workers who takes care of an AGV fleet. I think theres about 5 of them running with 24v 12v interstate agms. He gets about a year out of em. He said he couldnt justify the cost. i told him he would just have to try a set of LiFePO4 and see if its worthwhile.

"About $1USD/AH (per cell) seems to be about the going rate, even for larger purchases. I'm guessing you're talking about a 12V (well, 12.8V) system. That puts you at about $3/AH/cell, $156/AH/cell

These were prismatic cells, $250 for each set of 4x40AH. So $500 for 40AH x 8 cells = $1.50
LH

Offline rossw

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Re: Power Jack LF 5000W Inverter Board Swap
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2016, 11:47:02 PM »
These were prismatic cells, $250 for each set of 4x40AH. So $500 for 40AH x 8 cells = $1.50

I got 16 x 300AH prismatic cells for here, they cost me just on $1USD/AH (near enough to $300 per cell, $4800 for the bank).

I think your friend might be very surprised if he could be convinced to try one set ;)

Offline lighthunter

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Re: Power Jack LF 5000W Inverter Board Swap
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2016, 03:40:47 PM »
@ ross w,
" friend might be very surprised if he could be convinced to try" 

I, agree. Ive never seen a battery perform like these. Its everything
You could want in a battery. You did very well on pricing for the time frame.
You purchased. Hopefully they will come down more as they get more popular.
I was reading a blog somewhere where one was under test and approaching 5000
Cycles at 80%dod and still above 80% capacity. Ive heard high temps 85F+ can
Be their enemy.

After connecting these, my grid tie inverter
Never faults out. The nominal 24v level is about 26.6v and tons of instant.
Current without voltage sag, Referring to a problem i used to have with my
Grid tie inverter" im guessing the power jack had a bit of distortion when the
Battery voltage dropped below 25 which bothered the grid tie and caused it
To fault.  (i was the cause of this by raising pj regulation voltage from 112 to 120.)
 These are only guesses but the only things ive done were to install these
Batteries and increase voltage thresholds  (load transfer controller), and no more.
Grid tie faults. The AC output voltage of PJ didnt change, still 237-241. Another
Solution might have been to add a few turns to the low v primaries of toroids, i didnt
Think of that till the LiFePO4 batteries were ordered so ithought just wait and see.

My spare pj has a serious problem, i had ordered fets (4110) but havent received yet,
Getting impatient because i want to use it for a dump load (well pump) anyway, i knew
Problem was temperature related but wasnt sure which component. I used a pencil soldering.
Iron today and when i switched on cold, the whole box shook with vibration, used hair dryer on control boarr, ran perfect 1 amp idle, let it cool, same thing, this time i heated chips individually.
Turned out to be U09 LM339, when i preheat it, pj starts and runs without a sound. Anyone know.
 what this quad comparator does in the circuit? Anyway, i ordered, this time within same country.

LH

Offline oztules

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Re: Power Jack LF 5000W Inverter Board Swap
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2016, 03:55:04 PM »
Drives the totem poles

ila_rendered

..............oztules
Flinders Island...... Australia

Offline lighthunter

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Re: Power Jack LF 5000W Inverter Board Swap
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2016, 03:56:15 PM »
Clockman, i forgot to thank you for the info on the toroid winding.
Techniques. When the time comes, im sure i will be using it. Although im.
Not crazy about winding, i did a starter armature once, it did work.
But was quite a chore. Currently my incoming is only about 1900w for2250 w.
Panel and the 6000lf runs two 3kw toroids parallel primaries, series secondaries.
PJ meter reads 2200w at times but the toroids never get very warm. In fact with.
The toroids removed from the pj box the fans never need to run. The fets dont seem.
To create much heat. Someday when i add more, i will need to stack toroids thanks.
Again for explaining it :)
Cheers!
Lighthunter
LH

Offline lighthunter

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Re: Power Jack LF 5000W Inverter Board Swap
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2016, 04:08:54 PM »
Oztules,  :) Thankyou!

That would explain it! I owe you. You've helped me a lot, I dont think.
I wouldve bought pj if it hadnt been for your posts! As it is i love these
Inverters.
 
Lighthunter
LH